Is Sorcerer/Bard a good combo?

[No1ofIntrst]

Our current game (at AL) of Descent Into Avernus is coming to an end pretty soon, so I've started thinking up characters to play. Two of my friends decided to play a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter, and the other is playing a Rogue. Both are planning on taking the Elven Accuracy feat, so getting advantage is pretty important.

Anyways, I'm thinking of playing a Sorcerer3/Bard17 multiclass, as twinning and heightening Buffs and Nerfs (two Hastes or Polymorphs is pretty nice, and being able to twin Foresight is pretty neat, though it is at LvL20). I'm thinking half-elf as it gets lots of fun stuff, as well as CHA16/DEX16/CON14. I think Lore bard is probably the best choice (both thematically and mechanically), as our party will likely have a couple of good damage characters, making the utility gained by Lore much better (the Magical Secrets are pretty nice as well).

Are there any suggestions on what could be some fun feats, spells (both for Secrets and twinning) and if this is even a decent build

[JNAProductions]

How are you twinning foresight?

Wouldn’t that be 9 SP out of your max of 3?

[PhantomSoul]

How are you twinning foresight?

Wouldn’t that be 9 SP out of your max of 3?

Correct! It gets some great potential use out of Extend Spell, though, but even then it depends on how the campaign is set up and when encounters fall

[diplomancer]

It's a good multiclass, specially on campaigns with short adventuring days. But it is also a hard multi-class to do, I think. Though you will be a full-caster, if you get your sorcerer levels early you will be 2 spell levels behind other full casters. Look for spells that upcast well.

[Ogre Mage]

Because Bard 17/Sorcerer 3 is SAD it is a solid multiclass. The sorcerer levels can certainly help with the bard's lack of defense and damage. I'd be tempted to go dragon for my sorcerer levels as the natural armor is particularly nice for shoring up the bard's AC without having to sacrifice a precious spell slot. But you will never have many sorcerer points with this build.

Personally, I think Bard X/Hexblade 1-2 is better :smallwink:

[CTurbo]

A Bard with Subtle Spell is great fun, but yeah it comes at the expense of higher level spells

[MrStabby]

Our current game (at AL) of Descent Into Avernus is coming to an end pretty soon, so I've started thinking up characters to play. Two of my friends decided to play a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter, and the other is playing a Rogue. Both are planning on taking the Elven Accuracy feat, so getting advantage is pretty important.

Anyways, I'm thinking of playing a Sorcerer3/Bard17 multiclass, as twinning and heightening Buffs and Nerfs (two Hastes or Polymorphs is pretty nice, and being able to twin Foresight is pretty neat, though it is at LvL20). I'm thinking half-elf as it gets lots of fun stuff, as well as CHA16/DEX16/CON14. I think Lore bard is probably the best choice (both thematically and mechanically), as our party will likely have a couple of good damage characters, making the utility gained by Lore much better (the Magical Secrets are pretty nice as well).

Are there any suggestions on what could be some fun feats, spells (both for Secrets and twinning) and if this is even a decent build

I would be tempted to swap round the classes.

Metamagic is the big sorcerer thing. It is only really fun if you get to use it. This means either you sacrifice spells to get sorcery points or you have a decent number of sorcerer levels.

I would say to take one level of sorcerer for con save proficiency, then three levels of bard, then sorcerer for the rest.

A small number of bard levels go a long way as they have a good number of spells that scale very well and getting a few more low level spells known eases the restrictions for sorcerers somewhat. With just three levels you get access to heat metal, dissonant whispers, fairy fire and healing word. Depending on your preferred flavour of sorcerer you may want valor bard for improved armour or lore bard for cutting words - just a nice set of things you can use bonus actions and reactions for. This also gets you jack of all trades, very useful if you are wanting your sorcerer counterspells and dispel magics to get a bit of a boost.

Personally I would take shadow sorcerer and valor bard; to me the defence of the valor bard is well worth having and the extra spells known you will have from bard means there is a little bit less benefit from the divine soul sorcerer.

[JellyPooga]

I would be tempted to swap round the classes.

Metamagic is the big sorcerer thing. It is only really fun if you get to use it. This means either you sacrifice spells to get sorcery points or you have a decent number of sorcerer levels.

I would say to take one level of sorcerer for con save proficiency, then three levels of bard, then sorcerer for the rest.

A small number of bard levels go a long way as they have a good number of spells that scale very well and getting a few more low level spells known eases the restrictions for sorcerers somewhat. With just three levels you get access to heat metal, dissonant whispers, fairy fire and healing word. Depending on your preferred flavour of sorcerer you may want valor bard for improved armour or lore bard for cutting words - just a nice set of things you can use bonus actions and reactions for. This also gets you jack of all trades, very useful if you are wanting your sorcerer counterspells and dispel magics to get a bit of a boost.

Personally I would take shadow sorcerer and valor bard; to me the defence of the valor bard is well worth having and the extra spells known you will have from bard means there is a little bit less benefit from the divine soul sorcerer.

As much as I love Bard over Sorcerer, this is a very valid point. The whole point of going Sor is for Metamagic and if you don't have the Sorcery Points to fuel it, you're really just wasting levels.

Personally, though, I would just go straight Bard over a Bard 17/Sor 3 split.

[Asmotherion]

Sor17/Brd3 seems like a good dip. Less so than Sorclock but still prety neat.

[clash]

I recommend forgetting about metamagic and just doing sorcerer 1/ bard x. That way it only offsets your higher level spells by one level but it gives you a damaging cantrip, additional cantrips, proficiency in con saves and your sorcerer origin feature. If you go divine soul you can snag bless early for your sharpshooters. Shield and chromatic orb are also great picks for shoring up bard weaknesses.

[ezekielraiden]

In general, yeah, I'd say dip Bard as a Sorcerer rather than the other way around. More of what Sorcerer "does" comes from class levels, whereas more of what Bard does is relatively independent (that is, Bardic Inspiration's die-size growth is a little bland compared to simply having it, then having it every short rest).

It's also a decent way to get some martial injected into your Sorcerer if you go Valor, or a major shot in the arm for utility if you go Lore. And if you do go this route, consider going Bard 6. The benefits are hard to argue with, and if you pick your levels wisely, you don't actually lose out on that many spells.

[HiveStriker]

Our current game (at AL) of Descent Into Avernus is coming to an end pretty soon, so I've started thinking up characters to play. Two of my friends decided to play a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter, and the other is playing a Rogue. Both are planning on taking the Elven Accuracy feat, so getting advantage is pretty important.

Anyways, I'm thinking of playing a Sorcerer3/Bard17 multiclass, as twinning and heightening Buffs and Nerfs (two Hastes or Polymorphs is pretty nice, and being able to twin Foresight is pretty neat, though it is at LvL20). I'm thinking half-elf as it gets lots of fun stuff, as well as CHA16/DEX16/CON14. I think Lore bard is probably the best choice (both thematically and mechanically), as our party will likely have a couple of good damage characters, making the utility gained by Lore much better (the Magical Secrets are pretty nice as well).

Are there any suggestions on what could be some fun feats, spells (both for Secrets and twinning) and if this is even a decent build
Sorc 3 / Bard 17 is very nice and powerful... As long as you pick Metamagics that fit that proportion: namely NOT Twin (which is vastly overrated anyways) and NOT Heightened (which is great but with only 3 SP you'll get vastly frustrated).

Subtle would be one metamagic I'd pick overall whatever kind of Swords Bard I play.

I'd shy away from Empower because imo you won't pick enough pure damage spells for it to be worth.
I love Quicken, but unless you'd actually go at least up to level 5-6 for Sorcerer, it's too costly for the benefit imo.

Are left...
- Extend: great with hour-long buffs like Invisibility, Enhance Ability, Regenerate, or manipulation spells like Suggestion (16 hours allows you to make more complex, long to achieve suggestions), or even spells that you can use for utility (like Silence, Rope Trick, even Forcecage) or weakening a party before actual engagement, or making some Magic Secrets last longer.
- Distant: always a solid pick if you mix up healing spells (Healing Words), short-range debuff (Hold Person, Heat Metal) or simply want to engage enemies with spells from as afar as your ranged pals (meaning you'll want at least 120 feet effective range to cast spells). Also works with Thunder Step. ^^
- Careful: great with AOE debuffs like Fear or Hypnotic Pattern if you have friendlies regularly engaged in the middle of enemy group. The thing is, apparently your group is completely biaised towards ranged, so Careful may be rarely used.

So I'd pick Subtle then either Extend or Distant depending on your taste in spells.

[Bobthewizard]

I recommend forgetting about metamagic and just doing sorcerer 1/ bard x. That way it only offsets your higher level spells by one level but it gives you a damaging cantrip, additional cantrips, proficiency in con saves and your sorcerer origin feature. If you go divine soul you can snag bless early for your sharpshooters. Shield and chromatic orb are also great picks for shoring up bard weaknesses.

This is my recommendation too. I prefer to take the sorcerer dip at level 7 after I get lore bard's magical secrets. You lose CON saves but you get 3rd level spells and magical secrets on time. Sorcerer then gives you shield, absorb elements, and some damaging cantrips.

[sophontteks]

If your dipping sorcerer it'd be most often for subtle spell. Its cheap and allows all those bard mind spells to work in plain sight, often without repercussion.

I don't know how you are twinning haste and polymorph unless your burning magical secrets for them, which seems a bit redundant. With such expensive metamagics it seems like you'd be better off dipping bard, not sorcerer.

The metamagic choices you made sound good on paper, but you are going to have a hard time actually using them with only 3 metamagic until very late game.

[JellyPooga]

This is my recommendation too. I prefer to take the sorcerer dip at level 7 after I get lore bard's magical secrets. You lose CON saves but you get 3rd level spells and magical secrets on time. Sorcerer then gives you shield, absorb elements, and some damaging cantrips.

By that point, you may as well commit to going straight Bard. If you haven't found a solution to the issues of defence and magical offence by then, I hate to say it but it may be possible you're doing it wrong. A 1 lvl. Sorcerer dip is either going to become relatively redundant by Tier 3 or be a pointless speedbump/delay to accessing high level Bard abilities/spells. Likewise, a 3 lvl. dip has similar issues. If this was a build solely for lower tier play, I'd say the Sorcerer dip would be worth it, but for a 1-20 build...it's not enough to justify the loss/delay.

[Keravath]

Honestly, I would consider lore bard 18/hexblade warlock 2. Due to the very limited sorcery points.

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However, even with only 3 sorcery points, your metamagic options are pretty reasonable.

Metamagic options -
careful - 1 sorcery point - very useful when casting hypnotic pattern or other AoE spells as a bard
distant - 1 sorcery point - extends range - not very useful for most campaigns where encounters usually start at 60' or less
empowered - 1 sorcery point - reroll damage dice - depends on bard spell selection but they don't have that many damage spells except through magical secrets
extended - 1 sorcery point - double duration - could have some useful applications depending on spells but less useful for combat spells
heightened - 3 sorcery points - disadvantage on a save
quickened - 2 sorcery points - cast as a bonus action
subtle - 1 sorcery point - cast without verbal or somatic components
twinned - X sorcery points where X is spell slot level used to cast the spell - two targets for a single target spell

So ... you can basically choose any of them and only twin will be limited to 3rd level spells or below. You will need to give up spell slots to refill the very small sorcery point pool but several of the abilities only require 1 sorcery point. For a bard 17/sorcerer 3, I might go with careful and subtle.

--

Comparing the two dips ...

Sorcerer 3 - gain two metamagics, 4 cantrips and 4 sorcerer spells. You can also get +3 hit points and base AC13 with dragon or 120' darkvision, darkness spell and see through darkness cast with sorcery points with shadow sorcerer. Does not delay spell slot progression but does delay receiving higher level spells.

Hexblade 2 - medium armor and shield use for MUCH better AC and no need to increase Dex past 14. hex and shield spells out of 4 spells known. 2 cantrips including eldritch blast. 2 invocations (agonizing blast [usually]+ one more), hexblade's curse (proficiency to damage on each hit against one target, 1/SR), 2 short rest 1st level spell slots. Devils sight if you are a race that can't see in the dark (or even if you are since it avoids disadvantage on perception checks for darkvision in actual darkness and sees through magical darkness). Affects spell slot progression but a bit less impact on getting higher level spells. Agonizing blast is a great supplement to the bard's lack of good direct damage options.

If your campaign will get that far, hexblade 2 also leaves the bard with level 18 magical secrets so they can pick up Wish or other options. However, this doesn't matter until level 20 which you may never see.

I currently play a 12 lore bard/2 hexblade warlock (in AL) and it has been fun all the way through. Level 6 was the slowest since I was waiting for 3rd level spells at level 7 but overall agonizing blast has been more useful than the next higher level spells in most of our encounters.

[paladinn]

I don't think it's bad.. MC between any two Cha-based classes is a good thing. I'm not sure how much you really have to gain from MC with two full-caster classes. Bard does bring some nice healing. But there's a reason that a lot of Cha MC involves either hexblade or paladin (or both). You're going to be pretty squishy with sorc/bard.

If you went Divine Soul Sorc, would you still want to MC Bard?

[No1ofIntrst]

I am considering Sorcerer, with a little dip into bard (both flavor and a couple of spells). How far is it worthwhile to dip? (1 for Inspiration, 3 for the subclass, or 6 for subclass?)

[ezekielraiden]

I am considering Sorcerer, with a little dip into bard (both flavor and a couple of spells). How far is it worthwhile to dip? (1 for Inspiration, 3 for the subclass, or 6 for subclass?)

Unless you really want just a couple Bard spells known, I'd say do either 3 or 6. 3 gets you the basic college benefits (armor & weapons if Valor, skills if Lore) and still leaves 9th level spells open. Taking 6 levels strategically is often even better, but it's also somewhat more costly (e.g. no 9th level spells except maybe via Magical Secrets if you delay the 6th level until late).