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Kosmopolite
2007-10-20, 05:04 PM
Okay, after listening to the advice given in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60157), and after a bit of surfing, I've chosen to write a Shadowrun campaign for my first DMing role. However, as I said in there, I've read a lot of controversy about the varying editions of the game. So I wanted to know about some of your experiences with the game in its various incarnations. Which is better and why?

Thanks in advance.

Winterwind
2007-10-20, 08:26 PM
Wished I could help, but alas, I only played 3rd edition so far.

From what I heard - and note that these are only rumours from forums, so I can't say anything about their correctness - the later the edition, the stronger the magic aspect becomes. On the other hand, I also heard that in the earlier editions integrating a decker (=hacker) character into the group was much more cumbersome than in the 3rd one, and that Matrix stuff required significantly more time than it does in 3rd. Can't comment on that either, though, since I have never had a decker PC in the group.

Hawriel
2007-10-20, 09:33 PM
Ive played both second and third edition. Third runs smoother by far. It had a lot of small changes here and their that really made the game run better. THe shadowrun compendium book has alot more player options for character building. The best one is a point system. You get 120 points to make a character. you spend them at will on, atributes, skills, race, mony, magic adept or wizard/shaman ect. The ABC method is nice but the points let you tweek here and their to really get what you want. with amazon your friend getting third ed books will not be a problem. I recomend Rigger, the Matrix, the magic book, the cannon companion, and cybertech. I hope I got the titles right. All them give expanded rules oh how to make your own vehicls, guns and the rest. Hopefully you can get second ed sorce books as well, they dont take much to convert over.

Swordguy
2007-10-20, 10:58 PM
Wow, I could go on for a while on this one.

3rd is the edition you want, if you want to play cyberpunk Shadowrun. It cleaned up pretty much all the problems inherent in the 1st and 2nd editions, with the following exceptions:
1) Deckers, and to a lesser extent, Riggers, are REALLY hard to integrate into the group. They basically operate on their own, which is akin to having a permanently split-up party. I also must confess a dislike for drone riggers, as they sit in a comfy van a mile away from the action, never in any danger.
2) There's a different system for everything. There's a specific series of rolls to cast magic. There's a specific series of rolls to shoot at someone. There's a specific series of rolls hack a network. And they're all different. While a PC may only have to know two of them (shooting and a specialty if they have it) a GM has to know ALL of them. It's tough.

If you want a "cleaner", more sci-fi edition (as opposed to gritty cyberpunk), play 4th ed. I admit a hefty bias, as it rework the game from the ground up - nothing but the concepts are the same as editions 1-3. I don't like it, though I DO wholeheartedly recommend stealing and adapting the wireless Matrix rules for a 3rd edition game. It makes deckers a much more worthwhile addition to the game, since they can be doing their thing whilst prowling around with the rest of the group.

The other advantages to 3rd ed are cheaper components (since it's OOP), and a fully fleshed-out metagame, which you can choose to employ if you like it.

The BIG choice is whether you want a cyberpunk game or a sci-fi game.

EDIT: STAY THE HECK AWAY from point-buy. Shadowrun rewards powergaming a LOT - and point-buy systems just make it easier. If you use 3rd ed, force your players into the priority system. It'll save you a lot of headaches down the line. It's cyberpunk - them not having everything they want is thematic.

Hawriel
2007-10-21, 12:28 AM
hmm now that I think about it swordguy is right. It has been 5 years sence I made a new character for shadowrun and looked at the book with point buy. Point buys ability to be abused come with skills and mony. Shadowrun is all about skills and mony. The priority system fixes what you get, A is 1 million in creation mony whare B is 400,000. 50/40 skill points respectivly. with point buy you can still get an 'A' in eather skills or mony and get a B+/A- equivelent in the other. So I guess instead of min/maxing its more like Max/averaging. I do have a however to this. IF you play a human non magic user your character will kick major but out of the gate. Playing a mage and a meta type will dampen this some, they do cost alot of points, not by mutch though and still better than a mage created with priority. oh one of the fixes that 3rd ed has is the priority system added skill and atribute points for the choices. It also separtated active (combat/magic) skills and knowledge skills. the first is spent by the skill points given from priority choice the second is based strate off the characters INT. worked out nice. Your gun bunny can actualy know cemistry, medicen and 20th century literature and not have it detract from his ability to out do rambo.

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-21, 01:24 AM
The big choice is between 3rd and 4th edition. The first two editions are nice, but 3rd edition is a better refinement of both. I'll give my general advice. Unfortunately, I do sound more negative than I really am about Shadowrun. Shadowrun is one of my favorite settings even if it has its face-slapping moments. The rules aren't that bad but need some attention.

This is a great Shadowrun forum Dumpshock. (http://forums.dumpshock.com/)
General-
There's generally two extremes Shadowrun goes towards, A-Team and Tom Clancy. A-Team is where you have an eccentric group of people who take random jobs and get into raging gunfights in cardboard warehouses where no one gets hurt or at least no long term repercussions. Tom Clancy is where everything is planned out to a crazy degree and everyone can get screwed over because Bob left fingerprints on the windowstill. This two different ways of playing depends on how much repercussion player actions get for mistakes. In general, players will be careful and plan way more if mistakes can horribly screw them over and less so if not. Trying to go with a middle ground requires some lines here and there (what happens in a shadowrun stays in a shadowrun) for different sides of the extreme.

Both play styles are fun. But you're likely slowly going to drift to one or the other. You should tell the players what you're trying to do though. It'll save on debates later and they're criminals already, they should know what's up in their profession.

One of the biggest problems with Shadowrun is the "many worlds" problem. Deckers/Hackers (called Deckers from now on) do their thing in the matrix where no one not super good at it should go, Riggers have vehicle world where people act based on his actions, magicians have astral space where only they can go, etc. This means you have to balance out time for each of these worlds. The worst one is the Matrix especially in the first two editions where it was literally an one-man dungeon crawl. It's also harder to completely remove.

There's also a huge elephant in the room as well. Shadowrun as presented in the rules really doesn't pay. With your skills, you can easily rob cars and kill hobos for organs and make a tidy sum following the loot selling rules. You can get around this by having non-financial reasons for shadowrunning, but doing it for the cash is a big part of many people in Shadowrun. You can also try to railroad them away from this with Mob threats and the like, but why don't they bother with loots from shadowruns or the shadowruns themselves? If you're stealing a car for a shadowrun that you can sell for more than you're getting for the run, something's up. You can also just pay competitively with those other choices (what I generally do), but this is going to be in the range of 3x the book recommendations.

Min-Max is a big part of shadowrunning. While there are some skills everyone can use (Perception, Firearm skills, Dodge, Stealth), if someone has a skill and is really good at it, you don't need it. Two deckers don't really help each other out. Trying to be okay at something so if the specialist is unavailable really doesn't work. If you're only okay at decking, whatever the decker needs to deck will simply chew and spit you out. You can't really just dabble with magic due to how it's set up. Rigging costs cash and without the very expensive essence wise VCR implant, you're way behind the rigger. Both editions also make it fairly easy to max out what you want in character creation. Street Samurai get a 6 in a weapon and it'll be a long time before they hit a 7 in it, if ever. This means typically characters tend to start out specialized and then slowly get better at other things that can be useful to them (such as the useful to everyone skills mentioned above).

3rd Edition- Third Edition has crunchier rules. Some aren't too bad (combat) while others are alright (decking) and others are annoying (vehicles). Magic's better than tech, but it's close and tech beats it in some areas. The difficulty curve due to the way TNs are set up is linearly more difficult. Unless you're rolling a lot of dice, beating TNs greater than 8 is generally a one or zero success roll. Nothing wrong with this, but it makes TNs very important and modifiers to it more so.

There are a few issues. You should decide how called shots and armor work. In the main rulebook, there isn't a way to do this, but in Man and Machine there are rules for it but it's often argued if it deals with the dartguns or all weapons in general. I'll suggest not going with it since armor is what's keeping you from a gory death. Some stuff is better than others (shotguns are great weapons overall and everyone will get Form Fitting Armor if they can).

Extremely tough characters (such as very heavily armored trolls) and vehicles often become very binary in damage. Either someone with not hurt them or completely trash them. This is due to the TN system and how damage to vehicles work (and their very very low body scores).

I don't like the priority system as it causes weird incentives at times (dwarf and orks will be common among non-magical characters). Point Buy is a mess as well. I'll suggest BECKS. (http://tss.dumpshock.com/2004_10_23_becksv2/) It's basically the karma system with the players given a ton of karma at creation. This is the best way to encourage a more diverse skill set as well since maxing something at creation is no longer the clear choice.

The expansion books are all generally quite excellent products and come highly recommended. Man and Machine has nice cyberware and bioware options and some cool other tech. DMSO is broken however. Don't mess with it. Magic in the Shadows does give magic a minor power boost, but not that bad of one and has all sorts of cool rules and magic stuff. I didn't use the Matrix Book so I can't say. Cannon Companion is meh though. Really, use Shadowrun and Firearms (http://www.rayguncharlie.net/sr/) for guns. It's a cool website. You can decide if you want to do with his damage changes (generally the power of attacks went down, but light pistols don't suck).

4th Edition- 4th edition is far more streamlined and nearly everything uses the same rules. You'll have to make a lot of on the spot calls however. Working out mentally how many successes you need to do stuff with examples and telling the players them will make for more consistent gaming (and in Shadowrun, it's really about consistency so players can plan). It does however have a very nice default system with Rank 0 Skills.

There are some major issues that can become game stopping though. Magic is way better than tech. Magic spells are often more versatile than other options. When tech is better (such as smartgun systems, non-draining attacks, and surfing the web), a magician can now use as well. More importantly, the only good way to defend yourself from magic is counterspell available only to magicians! If you don't have counterspell, you have the magician rolling usually at least 2x your roll leading to major pwnage. Spirits are the insult to injury too. While having a random chance to completely take-out the summoner, a spirit of decent force can quickly become unstoppable without heavy defenses and firepower. Heck with a bit of luck and planning, you can summon a Force 12 spirit right after creation. Unless the GM is going to pull out a great dragon or something, that thing will do whatever it will want.

Hacking is another big issue. Basically logic is suppose to be a good attribute for hackers, but it's only used in making programs. Now this won't be too bad if making programs didn't take so much time that you're not shadowrunning anymore, but rather programing for months. So you just buy all the programs at 6 at creation (I like to call this MS Hacker). Now you don't need logic, just a great computer skill. Then hacking is easy especially if you have an awesome commlink. Now only the toughest security systems have a chance to stop you and that's going to 50-50 worst case with Edge helping for those rolls.

Also unlike in previous editions, everything in wirelessly hackable. Heck cyberware is by default hackable! Unless you have the best in defenses, you're better off going with the bare limits on wireless gear. So disable all wireless functionality you can. I personally view this as a huge disconnect from the setting fluff since everything is suppose to be wireless, but a rich kid who bought MS Hacker and a commlink can do whatever he wants to the vast majority of people. If you don't want your cyberarm hacked (what this does depends on GM but the faq suggests a non-functional diagnostic mode can be triggered), don't enable wireless. Ditto with your gun, smartlink, clothing, and everything else. You should keep a cheap commlink with a Fake SIN up though. But really after that, don't bother with wireless. Encryption is a joke too so don't bother with that either.

Character creation is annoying. It's the same min-max problems all WoDesque point based systems have. It's better to max something out in creation than get better at it with XP. Instead of solving the problem at its root, they tried to throw all sorts of "gotchas" in there. I'll be willing to be you'll accidentally hit a few gotchas while making characters since they tend to be random (no more than two skills at 5 or one at 6, only X on attributes but non-core are okay, 35 on advantages and disadvantage, all of the skill group rules). They still don't have all the sample characters legal. And you can still build monstrously good characters even once you deal with gotchas. Disadvantages are also problematic. The Incompetent disadvantage is incredibility abusable but needed due to how the Skill Rank system works. At the very least, don't allow incompetency in things that you can't default.

Kosmopolite
2007-10-21, 01:59 AM
I'm getting the impression that Shadowrun isn't nearly as well designed as the WotC games I've played thus far. Would that be an accurate assessment?

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-21, 02:59 AM
I'm getting the impression that Shadowrun isn't nearly as well designed as the WotC games I've played thus far. Would that be an accurate assessment?

I'll say not. D&D and D20 has issues as well, especially in terms of flexibility and flat probability curve. Honestly the vast majority of commercial RPGs have all sorts of problems. Most work most of the time. The only one that I'll actively recommend against are WoD and Exalted 1st edition (I don't have enough experience with 2nd edition to claim yet but I'm pessimistic). It's more of a matter of knowing yourself and your group. What do you want? What do your players want? What are you looking for in rules? How much disbelief are the players willing to take when the rules and fluff are at odds? For a Shadowrun game, do you want a fast simple system or a more complex system? What sort of game are you trying to have?

Winterwind
2007-10-21, 03:33 AM
I haven't ever played a WotC game in my life, but judging from what I read in these forums, ShadowRun is better designed. The system works quite fine even without houseruling (a few adjustments here and there make it work more smoothly, but they aren't required). Also, I don't know what would have to happen for the power gap between characters to grow so much as to one character obsoleting the others, something I notice is complained about quite often in regards to D&D on these forums.

I must say, however, that I disagree with a rather large number of points HidaTsuzua brought up in his General and 3rd edition section (for obvious reasons, I can't comment on the ones concerning the 4th edition).


There's generally two extremes Shadowrun goes towards, A-Team and Tom Clancy. A-Team is where you have an eccentric group of people who take random jobs and get into raging gunfights in cardboard warehouses where no one gets hurt or at least no long term repercussions. Tom Clancy is where everything is planned out to a crazy degree and everyone can get screwed over because Bob left fingerprints on the windowstill. This two different ways of playing depends on how much repercussion player actions get for mistakes. In general, players will be careful and plan way more if mistakes can horribly screw them over and less so if not. Trying to go with a middle ground requires some lines here and there (what happens in a shadowrun stays in a shadowrun) for different sides of the extreme.I don't quite see the purpose of these "A-Team" and "Tom Clancy" extremes. ShadowRun can be played perfectly well as a normal background setting with any kind of story you want to, neither drifting into the "nothing bad ever happens" nor into the "paranoia or death" extreme. So what's the point of this passage? I suppose I am missing some key element of the argument, but to me it boils down to "ShadowRun can be white. Or black. Or any shade of gray.", rendering the entire analogy meaningless.


Both play styles are fun. But you're likely slowly going to drift to one or the other. You should tell the players what you're trying to do though. It'll save on debates later and they're criminals already, they should know what's up in their profession. Why? Why would one be attracted to one of these extremes? What about telling a perfectly ordinary story where the protagonists sometimes luck out, and sometimes do not?


One of the biggest problems with Shadowrun is the "many worlds" problem. Deckers/Hackers (called Deckers from now on) do their thing in the matrix where no one not super good at it should go, Riggers have vehicle world where people act based on his actions, magicians have astral space where only they can go, etc. This means you have to balance out time for each of these worlds. The worst one is the Matrix especially in the first two editions where it was literally an one-man dungeon crawl. It's also harder to completely remove.Agreed, that is a problem of sorts, at least if one considers it as problematic if people are apart and are doing stuff on their own (I don't - how would one roleplay the parts relevant only for single characters otherwise?). But it is rather easy to consolidate either way - just take care that something is happening in every world at once, and you should be fine.


There's also a huge elephant in the room as well. Shadowrun as presented in the rules really doesn't pay. With your skills, you can easily rob cars and kill hobos for organs and make a tidy sum following the loot selling rules. You can get around this by having non-financial reasons for shadowrunning, but doing it for the cash is a big part of many people in Shadowrun. You can also try to railroad them away from this with Mob threats and the like, but why don't they bother with loots from shadowruns or the shadowruns themselves? If you're stealing a car for a shadowrun that you can sell for more than you're getting for the run, something's up. You can also just pay competitively with those other choices (what I generally do), but this is going to be in the range of 3x the book recommendations. That's a matter of world interpretation. Yes, it is possible to interprete the world in a way where this is a problem. However, you could just as well interprete it in the following manner: Cars from the lower social classes (which make up the vast majority of the population) will not earn you any significant money ("hell, chummer, where did'ya find that piece o'scrap metal, been scroungin' in the city dumps or what?"), whereas the parts of the city with the better social classes are sufficiently well secured for such an endeavour to be not significantly less problematic than a ShadowRun - at least in the case of the run you can expect the trouble to be limited to the private area belonging to the corporation or whomever against whom the run is directed, as opposed to everywhere, and there are less variables to be accounted for. Even though it is a high-security location.
Not saying that other interpretation is wrong, but if one interpretation poses problems and the other one does not, I know which one I would go for. :smallwink:


Min-Max is a big part of shadowrunning. While there are some skills everyone can use (Perception, Firearm skills, Dodge, Stealth), if someone has a skill and is really good at it, you don't need it. Two deckers don't really help each other out. Trying to be okay at something so if the specialist is unavailable really doesn't work. If you're only okay at decking, whatever the decker needs to deck will simply chew and spit you out. You can't really just dabble with magic due to how it's set up. Rigging costs cash and without the very expensive essence wise VCR implant, you're way behind the rigger. Both editions also make it fairly easy to max out what you want in character creation. Street Samurai get a 6 in a weapon and it'll be a long time before they hit a 7 in it, if ever. This means typically characters tend to start out specialized and then slowly get better at other things that can be useful to them (such as the useful to everyone skills mentioned above).One, no, it is not necessary to min-max. One can dabble into any field, be it decking, magic or any other, and even in a manner where one will be better than the average human at it. Yes, one will lose horribly if pitted against something designed as a challenge for a specialist. But that's assuming one will be up against the same challenge. However, an amateur decker could just as well perform some easier task to save time for the specialist decker to do something else in the meanwhile - if both are important, both do their contribution. Even more so with magic - an amateur mage (i.e. someone with minor Sorcery&Conjuration skills and not a full Magic attribute) will be limited in his magic use, but will be able to cast a spell now and then to achieve something impossible otherwise and use his other abilities (like cyberware, which would explain his lowered Magic attribute) at other times.

Second, yes, it is possible to have what one will want to have eventually from the very beginning. That's because that's who the character is. Still, a character will hardly be able to be perfect at everything from the very beginning, especially not so if the character will also have some kinds of hobbies and not just the few most important skills like Stealth and Athletics. So I fail to see the problem - the system allows one to create the character one wants to, which is fine, and still leaves room to develop to, which is fine also?

And as a sidenote, Perception and Dodge are no skills, one is the Intelligence Attribute, the other one is the Combat Pool. :smallwink:


3rd Edition- Third Edition has crunchier rules. Some aren't too bad (combat) while others are alright (decking) and others are annoying (vehicles). Magic's better than tech, but it's close and tech beats it in some areas. The difficulty curve due to the way TNs are set up is linearly more difficult. Unless you're rolling a lot of dice, beating TNs greater than 8 is generally a one or zero success roll. Nothing wrong with this, but it makes TNs very important and modifiers to it more so.

There are a few issues. You should decide how called shots and armor work. In the main rulebook, there isn't a way to do this, but in Man and Machine there are rules for it but it's often argued if it deals with the dartguns or all weapons in general. I'll suggest not going with it since armor is what's keeping you from a gory death. Some stuff is better than others (shotguns are great weapons overall and everyone will get Form Fitting Armor if they can). On this part, I agree.


Extremely tough characters (such as very heavily armored trolls) and vehicles often become very binary in damage. Either someone with not hurt them or completely trash them. This is due to the TN system and how damage to vehicles work (and their very very low body scores). That's what salvoes/full automated fire is for. It allows to scale the Power Niveau of an attack in such a way that the armour is bypassed with exactly the TN necessary that too many successes at the Body check are unlikely, yet sufficiently many should occur to survive the hit.


I don't like the priority system as it causes weird incentives at times (dwarf and orks will be common among non-magical characters). Point Buy is a mess as well. I'll suggest BECKS. (http://tss.dumpshock.com/2004_10_23_becksv2/) It's basically the karma system with the players given a ton of karma at creation. This is the best way to encourage a more diverse skill set as well since maxing something at creation is no longer the clear choice.I like the priority system. The part about players not wanting a priority go to waste and therefore choosing non-humans if playing nonmagical characters may be true, but I a) doubt it is so bad, for after all minorities make for interesting plot hooks, and b) think that a nonmagical human is not quite such a bad choice either, since more Karma Pool may be in fact superior to the few boni the other races get.
As for BECKS, it's a matter of taste. It makes the character creation much longer and involves a lot more calculations, but may be fairer in the long run. We never found that necessary.


The expansion books are all generally quite excellent products and come highly recommended. Agreed.

Kosmopolite
2007-10-21, 11:04 AM
Okay, so if I were to design a campaign in either system, what books would I need?


Also bear in mind that I've only ever played D&D and D20 modern, and those only since this time last year. I really am an amateur at this, so what are little problems to you might take some considerable thinking on my part.

Swordguy
2007-10-21, 11:05 AM
I'm getting the impression that Shadowrun isn't nearly as well designed as the WotC games I've played thus far. Would that be an accurate assessment?

Not at all. Hida's statement was about spot-on accurate regarding the brokenness of most RPGs, and Shadowrun's better than most - especially 3E. It's the 3rd go-around with the same basic rules Mechanic, so it'll naturally be cleaner than the previous two (and another mark AGAINST 4E - since it changes that mechanic and starts the cycle over again).

The most common ways to "break" characters are the following:
1) Initiative whore: by far and away the most common "game-breaker". With the inherent system lethality that SR has, it's really the "quick and the dead" time. Therefore, you'll see people stacking move-by-wire systems and and all sorts of other goodies to get insane init values. Whereas the average person rolls 1d6+4ish for initiative, and a typical Red Samurai (badass Renraku guards) rolls IIRC 2d6+9ish, I've seen a PC with 5d6+22. (If you need a breakdown of the initiative system for why this is a REALLY BAD thing, just ask).

2) Magical compulsion: Basically, abuse of mind-control magic to frag the GM's plots and to take over other PCs. Most of these spells target Willpower, which is low on the priority list for physically-inclined PCs (physads excepted).

3) Spirit/Elemental Summoning: I recall a PC who could get a Force 10 elemental just after character creation. That's generally a win button right there.

4) Magical Initiation/Ritual Magic: It's just broken. Seriously. Especially the Ritual Magic - though there's some initiation stuff that can take your mage from pwn to zomgwtfubrpwn. That's the technical term, by the way.

A lot of this can be stopped by the GM. Magical Initiation is a mid-to-late-game kind of thing, or generally should be. It's also REALLY karma-intensive. Ritual Magic is a VERY late-game thing. Magical compulsion is solved by simply restricting spell access somewhat. Initiative whoring tends to go away after a GM manages to remember that starting PCs can't have stuff that has an availability rating of more than 8 - and is willing to let people die on the operating table if they want to get it after character creation (the surgery to get move-by-wire, etc, is very, very dangerous).

There's not a whole lot you can do about the elementals though. This is a case of "if you can do it, than so can the enemy". That helps.

Swordguy
2007-10-21, 11:10 AM
Okay, so if I were to design a campaign in either system, what books would I need?


Also bear in mind that I've only ever played D&D and D20 modern, and those only since this time last year. I really am an amateur at this, so what are little problems to you might take some considerable thinking on my part.

Since it' completely different than what I just posted, I'll make a new one for you.

For SR3:
Shadowrun 3rd edition rulebook.

For SR4
Shadowrun 4th edition rulebook

That's all you REALLY need.

I'd suggest the following 3rd ed books:
Seattle Sourcebook (if you're doing the default Seattle setting, it's very useful)
Matrix
Man and Machine: Cyberware
Cannon Companion
Magic in the Shadows
Rigger 3 (good luck though - vehicle rules in SR in GENERAL are nasty)
Shadowrun Companion (optional - mostly helpful if you want point-buy)
The Last Will and Testament of Dunklezahn (a Great Dragon - it's about 200 pages of nothing but adventure hooks, and is full of awesome)

Crow
2007-10-21, 11:28 AM
Not at all. Hida's statement was about spot-on accurate regarding the brokenness of most RPGs, and Shadowrun's better than most - especially 3E. It's the 3rd go-around with the same basic rules Mechanic, so it'll naturally be cleaner than the previous two (and another mark AGAINST 4E - since it changes that mechanic and starts the cycle over again).


The most common ways to "break" characters are the following:
1) Initiative whore: by far and away the most common "game-breaker". With the inherent system lethality that SR has, it's really the "quick and the dead" time. Therefore, you'll see people stacking move-by-wire systems and and all sorts of other goodies to get insane init values. Whereas the average person rolls 1d6+4ish for initiative, and a typical Red Samurai (badass Renraku guards) rolls IIRC 2d6+9ish, I've seen a PC with 5d6+22. (If you need a breakdown of the initiative system for why this is a REALLY BAD thing, just ask).

2) Magical compulsion: Basically, abuse of mind-control magic to frag the GM's plots and to take over other PCs. Most of these spells target Willpower, which is low on the priority list for physically-inclined PCs (physads excepted).

3) Spirit/Elemental Summoning: I recall a PC who could get a Force 10 elemental just after character creation. That's generally a win button right there.

4) Magical Initiation/Ritual Magic: It's just broken. Seriously. Especially the Ritual Magic - though there's some initiation stuff that can take your mage from pwn to zomgwtfubrpwn. That's the technical term, by the way.

A lot of this can be stopped by the GM. Magical Initiation is a mid-to-late-game kind of thing, or generally should be. It's also REALLY karma-intensive. Ritual Magic is a VERY late-game thing. Magical compulsion is solved by simply restricting spell access somewhat. Initiative whoring tends to go away after a GM manages to remember that starting PCs can't have stuff that has an availability rating of more than 8 - and is willing to let people die on the operating table if they want to get it after character creation (the surgery to get move-by-wire, etc, is very, very dangerous).

There's not a whole lot you can do about the elementals though. This is a case of "if you can do it, than so can the enemy". That helps.

A few things to add to that;

1) That's a feature! No seriously, it is. It fits in perfectly with the setting and the archetypal "street-samurai" who sacrifices most of his flesh to get the ware he needs to be faster than the competition. Usually, your players are going to be going up against an opposing force which outnumbers them signifigantly, and may also have access to initiative-boosting ware (which can be cheap and effective at a low cost margin).

Most of the groups that have problems with initiatve whores are running scenarios where the enemies are on equal footing with the PC's (which they shouldn't be, unless the players have taken steps to make it that way), and are facing groups with only a small advantage in numbers, and no initiative boosts of their own. The other problem arises when for some reason, the GM decides the elite covert operative PC's led by the million-nuyen samurai have to start out by roughing up street gangs. It will be a slaughter. But for some reason, the GM still thinks the PC's have to start at "level 1" and work their way up to serious jobs.

The players are quite powerful right out of the box, but not overwhelmingly so. They are competent enough that it is reasonable to assume they have been running the shadows or doing something similarly dangerous for a while before that. Treat them as such, and place them against appropriate challenges. Not making them beat up gangers becasue it's their "first run". Do this, and you won't have some of the "power issues" that people talk about.

2) Yes, this can be a problem. In most any system that allows it. Work that out with your players out of game. Also, just because a PC casts control thoughts on a security guy doesn't mean the security guy can let you into the secret lab no strings attached. The bouncer at the nightclub, sure. The desk sergeant at the police station, no way. The other cops there aren't going to let him walk your mate out of the holding cell without a damn good reason.

3) Spirits can be killed, but have signifigant defenses against normal weapons. Mundanes can engage in a battle of wills against a spirit, but it will be tough with a high-force spirit. They can be hurt normally with elemental damage too (flame throwers/wp grenades). Also, the highest rating of materials a magic user can get at character creation is force 6, so mages are limited in that aspect. Shamans can summon spirits without the materials, but the spirits can only be summoned in their respective environment (forest spirits must be summoned in forests), and I'm not sure, but may not be able to leave their environment.

4) The magic system in SR3 is fine using just the core book. If you get the Magic in the Shadows (we call it MitS) supplement, your game may likely become all sorts of crazy. MitS is considered to be the least balanced supplement in the system by many...Our group got it, but the game plays fine without it, even when allowing the other supplements.

edit: The Seattle sourcebook is called New Seattle. Highly reccommended.

Winterwind
2007-10-21, 11:47 AM
For SR3:
Shadowrun 3rd edition rulebook.Seconded, unless you have riggers (chances are you won't). Unlike in the areas of cyberware, weapons, magic and matrix, the core rulebook does not contain enough options for riggers, making Rigger 3 a necessity. Also, if you have melee based characters, the Cannon Companion would be highly desirable, since it greatly expands upon their options. The other supplements are nice, but the contents of the rulebook are fully sufficient.

Don't have time to comment upon Crow's post right now, but I agree with his 1st and 2nd points.

Swordguy
2007-10-21, 11:52 AM
Most of the groups that have problems with initiatve whores are running scenarios where the enemies are on equal footing with the PC's (which they shouldn't be, unless the players have taken steps to make it that way), and are facing groups with only a small advantage in numbers, and no initiative boosts of their own. The other problem arises when for some reason, the GM decides the elite covert operative PC's led by the million-nuyen samurai have to start out by roughing up street gangs. It will be a slaughter. But for some reason, the GM still thinks the PC's have to start at "level 1" and work their way up to serious jobs.


The issue comes when going up against Jaguar Guards and Red Samurai, or even the elite Lone Star boys - all off whom should BE the "million nuyen" type guy. Their stats as written, though, aren't all that great (as mentioned - 2d6+11 [my bad] for Red Sams). If those are the elite of the Megacorps, then the runners should be about their level of power. Maybe slightly above, if you step away from the gritty mythos, but not double...

To the OP: this is part of the fun of SR. The power level of your group can vary significantly. SR had it roots in true cyberpunk - you're gutter scum with a few nifty upgrades. As the editions got later, PCs got more and more powerful and the world got less gritty and more shiny. It's up to you to decide where you want to peg that power level. Moreover, communicate your desired power level to your players.



Also, the highest rating of materials a magic user can get at character creation is force 6, so mages are limited in that aspect. Shamans can summon spirits without the materials, but the spirits can only be summoned in their respective environment (forest spirits must be summoned in forests), and I'm not sure, but may not be able to leave their environment.


Yeah, they guy who popped this on me pulled some type of cheese from Magic in the Shadows - which you've mentioned as being a bit...off.

And honestly, taking city spirits as a Shaman is a pretty darn safe choice. The vast majority of runs happen in cities...



edit: The Seattle sourcebook is called New Seattle. Highly reccommended.

Darnit. I'm thinking the old one, aren't I?

Dausuul
2007-10-21, 12:12 PM
Why? Why would one be attracted to one of these extremes? What about telling a perfectly ordinary story where the protagonists sometimes luck out, and sometimes do not?

Probably because players are very quick to adopt a paranoid mentality. The first time they encounter the consequences of messing up, they'll start taking hefty precautions against it happening again. Each occurrence cranks up their paranoia-meter another notch, and it takes a long, long time for the meter to drift back down.

Consequently, the game is likely to play out as if you were a sadistic "screw the players over every time" GM, even if you only actually screw them over one time out of ten.

Of course, this principle tends to apply in every game, not just Shadowrun.

Crow
2007-10-21, 12:24 PM
The issue comes when going up against Jaguar Guards and Red Samurai, or even the elite Lone Star boys - all off whom should BE the "million nuyen" type guy. Their stats as written, though, aren't all that great (as mentioned - 2d6+11 [my bad] for Red Sams). If those are the elite of the Megacorps, then the runners should be about their level of power. Maybe slightly above, if you step away from the gritty mythos, but not double...

You see I've always considered them to be "elite" in the sense that they are well-trained, act in concert with one another, and can call in support that the players (or lesser security guards) don't neccessarily have access to (like attack helicopters and stuff). They are adaptable, and can handle most any situation. That said, there is nothing about being elite that says a few select individuals can't be more powerful. The team is likely to have one, maybe three guys with the "whore" initiative. The Red Samurai are likely to have 12 guys with 2d6+11 (which is not insignifigant) acting in concert and with air support!


To the OP: this is part of the fun of SR. The power level of your group can vary significantly. SR had it roots in true cyberpunk - you're gutter scum with a few nifty upgrades. As the editions got later, PCs got more and more powerful and the world got less gritty and more shiny. It's up to you to decide where you want to peg that power level. Moreover, communicate your desired power level to your players.

This is all true. Don't make your world hopeless for the players or else you will just depress them. Give them a few discreet glimpses of the luxurious corporate enclaves and exclusive nightclubs. Something for them to dream about. (But NEVER achieve! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)


Darnit. I'm thinking the old one, aren't I?

Yeah...that wasn't too bad either.

Swordguy
2007-10-21, 12:26 PM
You see I've always considered them to be "elite" in the sense that they are well-trained, act in concert with one another, and can call in support that the players (or lesser security guards) don't necessarily have access to (like attack helicopters and stuff). They are adaptable, and can handle most any situation. That said, there is nothing about being elite that says a few select individuals can't be more powerful. The team is likely to have one, maybe three guys with the "whore" initiative. The Red Samurai are likely to have 12 guys with 2d6+11 (which is not insignifigant) acting in concert and with air support!


Fair enough. Different definitions for the same word.

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-21, 01:12 PM
I don't quite see the purpose of these "A-Team" and "Tom Clancy" extremes. ShadowRun can be played perfectly well as a normal background setting with any kind of story you want to, neither drifting into the "nothing bad ever happens" nor into the "paranoia or death" extreme. So what's the point of this passage? I suppose I am missing some key element of the argument, but to me it boils down to "ShadowRun can be white. Or black. Or any shade of gray.", rendering the entire analogy meaningless.

Why? Why would one be attracted to one of these extremes? What about telling a perfectly ordinary story where the protagonists sometimes luck out, and sometimes do not?

That's a matter of world interpretation. Yes, it is possible to interprete the world in a way where this is a problem. However, you could just as well interprete it in the following manner: Cars from the lower social classes (which make up the vast majority of the population) will not earn you any significant money ("hell, chummer, where did'ya find that piece o'scrap metal, been scroungin' in the city dumps or what?"), whereas the parts of the city with the better social classes are sufficiently well secured for such an endeavour to be not significantly less problematic than a ShadowRun - at least in the case of the run you can expect the trouble to be limited to the private area belonging to the corporation or whomever against whom the run is directed, as opposed to everywhere, and there are less variables to be accounted for. Even though it is a high-security location.
Not saying that other interpretation is wrong, but if one interpretation poses problems and the other one does not, I know which one I would go for. :smallwink:


I consider this part of a general topic of Shadowrun, the setting. The A-Team or Tom Clancy line depends on how much the antagonists care. If you're having a multi-million McGuffin (may it be small child, drugs, blueprints, or whatever) heist from a warehouse with one camera at a door, a few guards, and a system to hack and who just forget about the whole thing afterwards, then you're doing the A-Team. If tripping the alarm means that the wide parking lot around the building you're in now is a death trap full covering lines of fire and even if you do escape, you're recorded by the dozens of closed circuit analog cameras (since you can hack digital) and that watcher spirit will get you anyways, then you're doing Tom Clancy (all of this on a fairly cheap budget as well). If life is cheap, the guard zerg rush can also work. If you're trying to do the middle, you have to say stuff like "you don't need masks and cameras are going to be limited." However if the PCs plan more, they'll smash though stuff (unless you have preset "triggers" like a FPS), if they plan less, you'll either have to massacre them or let them get away.

The big issue is that there aren't very many huge McGuffin heists. Usually it's human error (someone putting in the McGuffin in their car late at night on Tuesdays or bribery). Those are fun to do but not the standard "let's raid someplace and do something." There's stuff for Shadowrunners to do. You can plant bugs in hotels al la Watergate, you can do random work for the mob, or do the other stuff that I brought up later.

Sure you might say "they're not paying for that much security" then go after something important by hiring some random guys off the street, giving them $5k and having them do it over a weekend. If it isn't important, why are you sending shadowrunners?


That's a matter of world interpretation. Yes, it is possible to interprete the world in a way where this is a problem. However, you could just as well interprete it in the following manner: Cars from the lower social classes (which make up the vast majority of the population) will not earn you any significant money ("hell, chummer, where did'ya find that piece o'scrap metal, been scroungin' in the city dumps or what?"), whereas the parts of the city with the better social classes are sufficiently well secured for such an endeavour to be not significantly less problematic than a ShadowRun - at least in the case of the run you can expect the trouble to be limited to the private area belonging to the corporation or whomever against whom the run is directed, as opposed to everywhere, and there are less variables to be accounted for. Even though it is a high-security location.
Not saying that other interpretation is wrong, but if one interpretation poses problems and the other one does not, I know which one I would go for.


You're saying that stealing some guys car is only going to be slightly less hard than stealing from the random Shadowrunning McGuffin? I mean this can be true if you do go for "people pay to protect their assets" way of doing Shadowrun, but you're going to hit Tom Clancy planning extremes. But anyways, I'll do the math to show how bad things are (I'm going to use Rigger 3 for vehicles since my rulebook is missing those pages).

Most listed Shadowrun payments tend to be around 5,000Y per person. Let's go with 7,500Y (enough for a middle lifestyle and savings). This involves a team of several people who have to break into a secure place with limited people going in and out, dealing with the security systems, guards, and the like. Now stealing a car is likely involving going into a gated parking lot in the night, hotrigging a car, and being able to leave. To be fair for both, you need decent stealth skills and tech skills. However in most ways the parking lot will have worse security since the place you're going to break into for a shadowrun will also have a parking lot.

Okay, what car shall we steal? Let's go for a Eurocar Westwind and a C-N Jackrabbit. You can sell both for roughly 30% of their value for 17,100Y and 6,150Y respectively. Now if each person on the team scores a Jackrabbit, they make only slightly less than a shadowrun at less risk. Heck they could steal 2 jackrabbits in a month and live a high lifestyle! If they score a Westwind, they're making far more. And is stealing two cars a month going to get you into far more trouble than stealing a multi-million dollar McGuffin? If so, then I really can't say too much more. It's pointless since we disagree on such a fundamental premise.

Organlegging is another fun pastime. A body assuming 4 limbs, 2 major organs, 2 eyes, and 3 minor organs scores you around 5000Y (yes this is assuming 2nd Hand part discount, 30% resale return). If you've killed someone in your shadowrun, then you can almost double your share by selling that body! Heaven forbid the guy had cyberware. Scoring a guy with Wired Reflexes is huge windfall. Sure you're a monster now, but hey you were shooting people in the face for money in front of their wife and kids anyways.



One, no, it is not necessary to min-max. One can dabble into any field, be it decking, magic or any other, and even in a manner where one will be better than the average human at it. Yes, one will lose horribly if pitted against something designed as a challenge for a specialist. But that's assuming one will be up against the same challenge. However, an amateur decker could just as well perform some easier task to save time for the specialist decker to do something else in the meanwhile - if both are important, both do their contribution. Even more so with magic - an amateur mage (i.e. someone with minor Sorcery&Conjuration skills and not a full Magic attribute) will be limited in his magic use, but will be able to cast a spell now and then to achieve something impossible otherwise and use his other abilities (like cyberware, which would explain his lowered Magic attribute) at other times.

Second, yes, it is possible to have what one will want to have eventually from the very beginning. That's because that's who the character is. Still, a character will hardly be able to be perfect at everything from the very beginning, especially not so if the character will also have some kinds of hobbies and not just the few most important skills like Stealth and Athletics. So I fail to see the problem - the system allows one to create the character one wants to, which is fine, and still leaves room to develop to, which is fine also?

And as a sidenote, Perception and Dodge are no skills, one is the Intelligence Attribute, the other one is the Combat Pool. :smallwink:


I forget about the Perception and Dodge not being skills, but they are still stuff you have to spend points (indirectly for Combat Pool) on so the point still stands.

The min/max isn't so much a problem for 3rd edition since most people assuming you're going to have a 6 in what you're good at. It's a larger issue in 4th edition. However, you're not going to get much better at what you're good at beyond creation. It's because you're going to have to spend a ton of Karma to get better (6 to 7 or 4 to 6). It's better to grab your sixes and then buy your other stuff that you want to be decent in later (mainly more magic for magicians, tech types have karma being only okay).

You can build a character who's great at what he does at creation. You can build a good decker, street samurai, rigger, magician, whatever. You can't build Awesomo, the man who can do everything. At best you're getting Meekio, the man who can roll a few dice and be meh. Sure if the decker bites it you can't hack. But if the thing wouldn't be a total cakewalk for him, your 3 computers and cheap deck isn't really going to help either. If the rigger bites it, unless you bought out a VCR, you're going to suck. If the magic guy bites it, unless you don't have Magic (Yes) on your sheet, then you can't do anything anyways. Combat tends to a bit more forgiving though. Anyone with some armor and an okay initiative can blast away with Shotgun 3. You're not going to win the fight on your own, but it helps.



Agreed, that is a problem of sorts, at least if one considers it as problematic if people are apart and are doing stuff on their own (I don't - how would one roleplay the parts relevant only for single characters otherwise?). But it is rather easy to consolidate either way - just take care that something is happening in every world at once, and you should be fine.


It's a problem when things take a while. The mage going on a solo-astral adventure to check out the place can take time. During this time, the other PCs can try to do stuff, but if this is their first recon, it might be better to have just the mage check it out (since the other PCs can't help here). Heaven help you if you were doing the one-man dungeon crawl decking was in 1st and 2nd edition. And if the party waiting for the door to open, you'll have to resolve the decking while everyone else waits in and out of game. Party Splitting isn't innately bad, but Shadowrun allows for it to happen all the time since everyone has their own place for them and only them to shine.



That's what salvoes/full automated fire is for. It allows to scale the Power Niveau of an attack in such a way that the armour is bypassed with exactly the TN necessary that too many successes at the Body check are unlikely, yet sufficiently many should occur to survive the hit.


And if you throwing that much lead downrange you're looking at XD damage. Now if the guy has a lot of recoil comp, that X can be huge. If he doesn't have much recoil comp, then he shouldn't be using that much lead since it's all or nothing. Damage is XD + Y successes on the attack roll. So the 12 Body Troll with 11 armor takes a hit. If 11 > X, the troll is going to have a 2 TN and make 10 successes so if Y >= 4, he's untouched. If X is 12, he'll need a 3 to make it with 8 successes so Y>=2 he's untouched. If X is 13, he'll get 6 successes for a light wound at best. If X is 14, he'll need a 5 so with 4 successes, he's taking a medium wound at best. If X is 15, he'll been a 6 for 2 successes and serious wound at best. That's a narrow range and if Y is high, that troll's going down. And if that attacks goes somewhere else, it's going to just kill the 7 body and 7 armor guy.

You also didn't address the AV problem. AV rounds in a heavy pistol will either destroy the vehicle or do nothing.



I like the priority system. The part about players not wanting a priority go to waste and therefore choosing non-humans if playing nonmagical characters may be true, but I a) doubt it is so bad, for after all minorities make for interesting plot hooks, and b) think that a nonmagical human is not quite such a bad choice either, since more Karma Pool may be in fact superior to the few boni the other races get.
As for BECKS, it's a matter of taste. It makes the character creation much longer and involves a lot more calculations, but may be fairer in the long run. We never found that necessary.


I guess this can be taste, but since I believe a fairer character creation is a lot better.

I think most of the viewpoint problems does come down to the amount of stress you give a system. If you just accept whatever the GM gives you and not try to figure out the conclusions of those choices, then you'll do fine. But try to do some stuff (steal a car for a shadowrun) you might smash it all the pieces. My groups tend to try to work a world where things flow from how the world works not as it's told to be. This means we put a ton of stress on the systems (this is reason why we tend to make our own systems or use extremely flexible systems we can change). If you don't, then things do look differently.

Swordguy
2007-10-21, 01:22 PM
I think most of the viewpoint problems does come down to the amount of stress you give a system. If you just accept whatever the GM gives you and not try to figure out the conclusions of those choices, then you'll do fine. But try to do some stuff (steal a car for a shadowrun) you might smash it all the pieces. My groups tend to try to work a world where things flow from how the world works not as it's told to be. This means we put a ton of stress on the systems (this is reason why we tend to make our own systems or use extremely flexible systems we can change). If you don't, then things do look differently.

Unfortunately, practically every system ever published fails that litmus test. Which, I suppose, is why you've written your own. Good for you, but that doesn't help a prospective SR GM very much. (Should we bother pointing out all of the logical failings in, say, the L5R 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition rules?)

To the OP: Mention to your PCs a theory called "suspension of disbelief."

Also, doesn't the SR book directly mention that people don't generally become a runner for the primary purpose of making money? It says, flat out, that most of the time there's very little cash to be made doing this line of work - you're in it for reasons besides money.

MaxMahem
2007-10-21, 05:04 PM
Wow, a lot of talk about my favorite RPG system of all time. I've played it from 2nd to 4th edition, and used just about every adventure/sourcebook ever printed, all the way back to the very first.

If you are a compete virgin to the setting I recommend starting out playing 4th edition. While I generally prefer the "flavor" of 3rd edition play, the mechanics of 4th edition are much more streamlined, and easier to start with. The mechanics in 4th are very simple. Roll a number of dice and see how many come up above 4 or above. These are your successes, compare that to the number of successes necessary to determine the result. Favorable circumstances can add extra dice, unfavorable ones can remove them. Pretty simple.

Shadowrun is a very different game the D&D. It's much less structured. The are few guidelines as to what a player can and can't do in any given situation. And few guidelines for you to follow in terms of what to throw against the PCs. This encourages players/GM to think 'outside the box' much more so then in D&D. Expect this, in fact encourage it.

As a new GM to the system I recommend you start of easy on the players. Give them a couple "cake-walk" missions. But slowly scale the level of opposition up until you get to your desired level of difficulty. I also recommend introducing things like Magic and Cyberspace gradually to the players. Mainly to let them get a handle on the different mechanics.

Lastly I recommend being evil. Your players should be thinking out of the box to invent new creative ways to archive their objectives. You should be thinking this way as well. Keep devising new and creative twists to make things difficult for them. Like making the person they want to extra on life-support (don't tell them this in advance!) or is a psychotic killer in prison or something. Screw with the players relentlessly, but reward them in proportion as well. Do it just right, and they will feel thankful to just survive with their lives, and maybe enough cash to buy a new car (after you blew the last one up).

---

Once you feel you got things under control you might want to start looking at some of the earlier edition books for inspiration. Other good sources are anime like Cowboy Bebop (shadowrun in space), Ghost in the Shell (shadowrun without the magic), and movies like Johnny Mnemonic, Blade Runner, Brazil, ect... But almost any concept can be adopted to Cyberpunk, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it real quick. Just _BE EVIL_ and everything will workout all right.

Crow
2007-10-21, 05:41 PM
Dude, can your payment talk.

To the OP;

Just offer the players a dollar (nuyen) amount that "sounds like" a lot of money, without being "too much" money. Remember that they have to split it too. So you offer the four of them 80,000 bucks. Sounds good!

Kosmopolite
2007-10-22, 12:43 AM
So SR4 is probably best for a beginner (like me)? Keeping in mind I won't be homebrewing much. I'll be writing a campaign based upon the rules as written. I really am a newbie at this, so I want to 'keep it simple, stupid', as they say.

On a slightly different note, are there any books (other than the SR licensed novels) which tackle a similar area (cyberpunk/sci-fi crossed with fantasy)? It's not easy to search for cross-genre novels.

Hawriel
2007-10-22, 02:26 AM
Wow Hidatsusua your brake down of 4th ed pretty much locked in that I will never play it. The number one thing I love about shadowrun is that magic does not rule the game. Its a big part, nasty scary part, but it doesnt dominate the game.

What I love about magic in SR is, and I hope you and your players will find out, magic in SR is not D&D and and ther systems. The big boom fireball is fun but chaose world is so much better. The combat spells are nice but if you take a look at the other ones, you can do so much more. The spells that are subtle have alot of impact in the game. My shaman only has one direct combat spell. Dont worry if the wizard gets his hands on military grade combat armor, form fit and a physical barier spell at 8. He still has to stay awake to cast spells. Thats the big check you can fire off the biggest fireball ever, but did you have an anurism doing it? Not only can you pass out from a big spell but if you over do it to much you can kill your wizard. Oh and the panther assalt cannon. Works every time, shoot them again if need.

Shadowrun 3rd ed is pretty balanced. You are going to find a falt that will feal like hitting a brick wall though. Vehicle combat is hard, hell the menuvering rules make it hard. Damage and low body on vehicls is the week spot. I made a truck based off of an armored hummer. That uses the pickup chassy giving it a body of 4, also the impact rating of the vehicle. I ran over an elf at 60 miles an hour. The truck was just about totaled the elf walked away with a light wound.

Initiative is not that bad in 3rd ed.
Back in second ed you could reroll a six. I once got a 36 initiatvice with 1D6. I killed every one ambushing us befor the second person acted. In 3rd they fixed it. cant reroll the six any more. Any thing giving you more than a 1d6 bonus is very hard to obtain. Mony wise, essence wise, and Adept power wise, its very expencive.

Decking.
Its true decking is kind of set up whare you just play with the decker and the rest of the party goes and eats. In third ed its a little better. You can salve this by just nerfing the round time for decking. Play every thing at the same time. I know I'll get flag for saying this. For every round in the RL give the decker two. I know like 20 rounds in the matrix is like 2 in the RL but that just gets insane. I recomend this if you need to infiltrate your decker some whare to hack. Deck as normal if its about prep work for a run.

Called shots
my friends and I do this, a called shot is one power level higher and I think +4 on the target number, at the very least it might have been more. If the target has armor only the type actualy covering the place targeted counts. so if you have full body form fit and an armored vest, the vest dont count if your knee caping. Although I always shot them in the head.

Rule of Kurt.
If the target number ends up a 7, 13 ect are really 8, 14 ect. Sixes are rerolled and you cant roll lower than one so thats why.

If you worried about power, just remmeber that makes a reputation, renrakue, the mob or Tir Tan Ger may come calling one day to settle a score.

Mr. Friendly
2007-10-22, 07:21 AM
Shadowrun is an awesome game system full of win.

It's also one of the few gamesystems where I get to make an utterly outrageous, unprovable claim; it is true though.

My mom worked with Tom Dowd's brother. Tom Dowd sent me an autographed copy of his new game "Shadowrun" along with everything they were about to release. Yes - I got to playtest 1e Shadowrun.

That being said, I have played Shadowrun on again and off again since before 1e was available to the general public.

As a GM in Shadowrun you need to be a bit of a control freak IMO and you need to basically just veto "evil" characters. While obviously there is no alignment in Shadowrun, I think we all recognize that the Street Sam who uses his money to fund a Barrens orphanage and kills Corp-Rats who try to shut it down is on a much higher moral ground than the Street Sam who chops up homeless people and sells their organs.

I liked 1e, in many ways I liked it more than 2e and 3e, but they are all fundamentally the same. 4e is utter drek and not worth the price of the paper that the contract for the life of whoever authorized it should be worth.

Actually, all this talk of Shadowrun is making me want to run a game. I have gotten kind of burned out of broken overpowered D&D characters and have to get burned out on broken Shadowrun characters again. :P

Seriously though, Shadowrun is a fun game.

Watch out for mages and deckers though. Casters of all sorts can be a real pain in the arse as a GM as can Deckers. You need to plan for every little fraggin contingency.

Minor Highjack: Most fun encounter I every threw at my overpowered and poorly planning A-Team.

They were raiding a major Aztechnology research facility. They had a beef with the Azzies, so they were a long running enemy. Anyway, so they sneak in to the facility, all stealthy like. The Shammy conjured a wizbang great spirit with some major mojo. They used the spirit to hide them as they went in, bypassing almost all of the security.

It was all going great and they were creeping down a hallway in the middle of this facility when I say "Up ahead you see a patrol of three. They are all wearing security armor and two carry assault rifles. The one in the middle looks like a caster with facepaint on and carrying some talismans. As they round the corner he seems to be staring directly at you." Now, he didn't actually see them. They were actually on a coffee break and I just wanted to screw with my players heads. To which one player responded in the most perfect way possible... "You said the mage was in the middle?" "yeah" "Okay I fire my under barrel grenade launcher and drop a 'nade in his chest" *laughter*

Anyway, they lost their cover from the spirit, the whole facility is now alerted, the players are ready to strangle the grenade launching player, the mage and two guards lived through the blast, delaying the players long enough for reinforcements to arrive. It was a bloodbath.

Eventually though, they mostly prevailed, however by then the players learned more about this particular research facility which was conducting experimental cyberware research on awakened para-animals. Which the last guard at his post turned loose as a "frag you" to the PCs before having a bullet put in him. Experimental animals in question: Black Annis. Experimental cyberware in question: Move-by-Wire 4. Roll initiative. Oh look... the monkeys win. PCs: "Hahaha; monkeys. Like a bunch of monkeys are going to hurt us!"

Yeah, that PC was in the hospital for about 2 months after being disemboweled by a monkey.

End threadjack.

Good times... good times...

Rasilak
2007-10-22, 07:51 AM
Well, most of it has been said already. IMHO SR3 is the best edition published so far, SR4 just lacks the cool atmosphere. However the rules of SR4 are quite a bit easier to use, so you might want to take SR4 if you are new.

For novels take a look at William Gibsons "Neuromancer". It's a lot of cyberpunk, and even some magic (-> Riviera).

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-22, 07:22 PM
Looking back at my posts, I've been too hard on Shadowrun. Sure, all its editions have issues, but really once all is said and done, it's a cool game. Where else are you going to get cyborg dwarf pimps and magical guys whose powers are based off of cheesy badly dubbed ninja movies and have it be totally in setting? :smallbiggrin:

Shadowrun does have a special place in my roleplaying gamer heart. It was the first system (2nd Edition) I really got to know and love. It was the first I GMed. Much like a first love, you can't really forget it.

I would heavily suggest that you work out with your PC how amoral and planning you want the game to be. It'll cut drastically problems later on. Suspension of Disbelief is better if you're all on the page or you know what you're getting into if you're going without. Up-front discussion is key to a good game. The points I've made should help point you to what you should talk about.

And honestly, most issues are fairly easy to fix once you have an idea of what you want. The books try to be all things to all people so pick and choice what you like, change what you don't. I've completely rewritten the background for my games since I never did like the normal one. I'll post it if people want.

If I had to choose editions, I'll currently go with Third. I have no problem with crunchy systems and its rough spots are easier to clean to me. Anyways, you're better off going Shadowrun than a White Wolf game or Second Edition Legend of the Five Rings. :smalltongue: