5e Eberron's war of the cosmologies

[Millstone85]

Here is how the fifth-edition book Eberron: Rising from the Last War describes the relationship between the Orrery and the Great Wheel:
It is theoretically possible to travel between Eberron and other worlds in the multiverse by means of the Deep Ethereal or various spells designed for planar travel, but the cosmology of Eberron is specifically designed to prevent such travel, to keep the world hidden away from the meddling of gods, celestials, and fiends from beyond.

The three progenitor wyrms worked together to form Eberron and its planes as a new cosmic system in the depths of the Ethereal Plane. They recreated the elves, orcs, dragons, and other races found throughout the multiverse and placed them in their new world, but allowed them to develop beyond the reach of Gruumsh, Corellon, Lolth, and other influences for good and ill.

In your campaign, you might decide that the barrier formed by the Ring of Siberys is intact, and contact between Eberron and the worlds and planes beyond its cosmology is impossible. This is the default assumption of this book. On the other hand, you might want to incorporate elements from other realms. Perhaps you want to use a published adventure that involves Tiamat or the forces of the Abyss meddling in the affairs of the world. In such a case, it could be that the protection offered by the Ring of Siberys has begun to fail. You might link the weakening of Siberys to the Mourning--perhaps whatever magical catastrophe caused the Mourning also disrupted the Ring of Siberys, or perhaps a disruption of the Ring of Siberys actually caused the Mourning!

If contact between Eberron and the wider multiverse is recent and limited, consider the implications for everyone involved. In the Great Wheel, Asmodeus is an ancient threat, with well-established cults, lines of tieflings, and a long history of meddling that sages might uncover in dusty old tomes hidden in remote libraries. But if Asmodeus has only just discovered Eberron and begun to influence it for the first time, there is no lore about him to be discovered on Eberron. He has no power base and needs to recruit new followers. Unusual alliances might form against him, as celestials and fiends join forces to expel this hostile outsider.
I imagine the simple fact that a connection exists will be cause for rant. Much worse yet is how the creatures of the Orrery are effectively described as bootlegs of those of the Great Wheel. Like, the Progenitor Dragons created the dwarves, but only after stealing Moradin's blueprints! It is IMO quite hilarious how 5e pushing its cosmology on the setting could become the plot of a campaign.

So let's roll with the idea, starting with my explanation of the Mourning:
A human cleric named Jarlace Mosher had long believed in the existence of a realm of the gods, where the faithful would be reborn and meet the Sovereign Host in the flesh, though it went against the credo of the church. A friend of his, the gnome artificer Vi, suggested that such a plane could be detected through its "call", the attraction it would exercise on the souls of the dead, which would be similar to, but likely fainter than, the call of Dolurrh. It took time, and the help of several other spellcasters, but Jarlace eventually heard the call from beyond. Later still, he and his team managed to open a portal to this distant plane. The most adventurous of the group, Vi stepped through the portal and found herself in what appeared to be another astral plane.

Unknown to the team, thousands of souls were escaping Dolurrh and rushing toward the portal, favoring the now amplified call of the distant plane. As the Realm of the Dead tried to reassert its hold on these souls, the area around the portal became a zone of planar friction. Having floated some distance into the unknown astral, Vi saw the portal explode in a ball of gray mist, which reformed as a sort of mishapen astral color pool. The rest of her team wasn't so lucky, nor was the kingdom of Cyre when the planar friction expanded through it.
Several years after the event, people venturing into or near the Mournland would start having religious epiphanies, leading to the appearance of several new faiths collectively known as the Cults of the Mournland. Notable deities would be:

The Elders True, racial gods such as Corellon, Garl, Gruumsh, Lolth, Maglubiyet, Moradin, and Yondalla.
The Lord Incandescent, Asmodeus, who promises to subjugate the Shadow in the Flame and all demons.
The Night Serpent, Dendar, prophetized to devour Dal Quor and its inhabitants entire.
The Powers Revealed, fifteen entities claiming to be avatars of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six.
That Which Lurks, Ghaunadaur, empowering rebel and outcast creations of the daelkyr.

As these presences become more manifest, tremors would be felt through the Orrery. Some immortals would realize that the planes themselves could be absorbed into those of the Great Wheel. For example, Daanvi the Perfect Order might become a layer of the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus. Eberron could be affected in a number of ways, depending on which plane is the first to leave its orbit.

Is this premise, or a similar one, something you would use as a DM?

[Spriteless]

I hadn't got that far in the book. After the Elves' treatment in Mord's tome of Foes, I'm glad Eberron's Elves are cannonically not made of daddy issues. (wait is ancestor worship daddy issues damn it)

I had thought that the reason all those races were there was they were refugees, caught in the aftermath of The Powers sealing away... whatever weapon blasted Cyre, and the predecessors of the Dal Quor. Just as the Daelkyr were sealed with Khyber shards, that destruction is sealed with Siberys.

But, I shall add some of those ideas to the mix should some players decide to really investigate the mournland, or deep ether, or take an airship up to touch the sky.

[Comaward]

Yeah, I think this could work.

In my own interpretation of Eberron, the Day of Mourning happened because Bahamut and Tiamat were in battle and accidentally tore through the barrier that blocked Eberron from the rest of the Great Wheel.

[8wGremlin]

So in effect the gods of the great wheel are the far realm inhabitants of the Orrery.
Interesting.

To be honest, I dislike the great wheel, it was justified to fit in the 9 alignments.
To be fair I like parts of it, but prefer the more rhythmic nature of the Orrery, as planes move and manifest. as in the great wheel chaos is labelled and confined to those parts of the great wheel, and not part of the astral sea. So many missed opportunities, because some people wanted to codify everything.

But then I also have developed the "Great Conspiracy" - the true way the godhood works, as a campaign.

[HappyDaze]

Yeah, I think this could work.

In my own interpretation of Eberron, the Day of Mourning happened because Bahamut and Tiamat were in battle and accidentally tore through the barrier that blocked Eberron from the rest of the Great Wheel.

I don't think I'd personally go with explanation for the Day of Mourning that didn't have it result from the actions of one or more factions in the Last War. I want it to be a result of the Five Nations' folly, not something that just coincidentally happened when & where it did.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't think I'd personally go with explanation for the Day of Mourning that didn't have it result from the actions of one or more factions in the Last War. I want it to be a result of the Five Nations' folly, not something that just coincidentally happened when & where it did.

Especially considering how precisely targetted it was. It hit Cyre, and that was it.... not Valenar or Darguun, which were historical parts of Cyre few decades earlier, and it did not leave parts of the country unaffected.

Anyway, no, I would not use anything like that. As far as I'm concerned, Eberron is not connected to Great Wheel in any way, Eberron races are not cheap knock-offs of other races (well, they are mechanically and thematically, but, not in lore... besides, Eberron's history streches far before the the history of FR or most other settings, so if unless time got wonky somewhere, the Progenitors did it first), and Ring of Siberys has nothing to do with interplanar travel.

I'll keep the rant to myself, though.

[Millstone85]

So in effect the gods of the great wheel are the far realm inhabitants of the Orrery.Oh yes indeed, I like the idea of taking themes usually associated with Far Realm entities (beings from beyond, trying to enter our reality...) and applying those to the classic D&D pantheon. Even the term "Powers of the Outer Planes" is pretty close to "Outer Gods".

Now, Dendar and Ghaunadaur are in fact listed as GOO patrons by the PHB, and connected to the Far Realm by SCAG, but the inhabitants of Eberron would think of them as Dal-Quor-like and Xoriat-like. Speaking of which...


I had thought that the reason all those races were there was they were refugees, caught in the aftermath of The Powers sealing away... whatever weapon blasted Cyre, and the predecessors of the Dal Quor. Just as the Daelkyr were sealed with Khyber shards, that destruction is sealed with Siberys.Yeah, the concept could turned on its head, with the gods being afraid of the quori and the daelkyr. Though it would work better for a campaign taking place in the Great Wheel, or with PCs sent to Eberron to repair the cage from the inside.


I don't think I'd personally go with explanation for the Day of Mourning that didn't have it result from the actions of one or more factions in the Last War. I want it to be a result of the Five Nations' folly, not something that just coincidentally happened when & where it did.
Especially considering how precisely targetted it was. It hit Cyre, and that was it.... not Valenar or Darguun, which were historical parts of Cyre few decades earlier, and it did not leave parts of the country unaffected.I admit this is also a flaw in the backstory I imagined. Maybe the other astral being detectable at all could be linked to "a century of extensive use of war magic", suggested page 14 as a possible cause of the Mourning.


Eberron's history streches far before the the history of FR or most other settingsDoes it? RftLW p5 speaks of "the course of millennia", and SCAG p15 of "tens of thousands of years ago", but I have otherwise no idea how old these worlds are supposed to be in-universe.


unless time got wonky somewhereThat would explain why it is always 998 YK on Eberron.

[raygun goth]

Does it? RftLW p5 speaks of "the course of millennia", and SCAG p15 of "tens of thousands of years ago", but I have otherwise no idea how old these worlds are supposed to be in-universe.

Yeah, the dragon civilization was millions of years ago and the Dragon/Khyber war was ten million years ago.

Also, connecting Eberron to the rest of D&D's cosmology is a recipe for disaster... for the rest of D&D's cosmology.

Like the instant the Eberronians find out you can just harvest Siberys shards with an easy-to-build magical chair instead of waiting for them to fall it's all over and there are elemental planes that are neutrally aligned it's all over. Every single country will refocus its effort into a technological boom intended to win the space race, and unless the Elven Navy gets there before the Eberronians get into space or the planes that's it.

Mostly because Eberronians view magic as a practical means and a constructive part of their world, rather than as an "art" or "secret superpower."

[Millstone85]

Yeah, the dragon civilization was millions of years ago and the Dragon/Khyber war was ten million years ago.I see. But it now occurs to me that Realmspace could be a very young crystal sphere in a much older Great Wheel.


Every single country will refocus its effort into a technological boom intended to win the space race, and unless the Elven Navy gets there before the Eberronians get into space or the planes that's it.I am surprised there isn't already a space race on Eberron. Perhaps I am missing something, like the relevance of an elemental's alignment, or how the wheel of wind and water from which this elemental is controlled is inferior to a spelljamming helm.

[Beleriphon]

Yeah, the dragon civilization was millions of years ago and the Dragon/Khyber war was ten million years ago.

Also, connecting Eberron to the rest of D&D's cosmology is a recipe for disaster... for the rest of D&D's cosmology.

Like the instant the Eberronians find out you can just harvest Siberys shards with an easy-to-build magical chair instead of waiting for them to fall it's all over and there are elemental planes that are neutrally aligned it's all over. Every single country will refocus its effort into a technological boom intended to win the space race, and unless the Elven Navy gets there before the Eberronians get into space or the planes that's it.

Here's a thought a warforged doesn't need to breath, there fore they don't need a spelljammer helm. They can use a regular airship, assuming they can control one somehow, and travel into space.

Assuming a whole continent of dragons doesn't roll on up to them with a pile of bad juju.


Mostly because Eberronians view magic as a practical means and a constructive part of their world, rather than as an "art" or "secret superpower."

Also true.

But on the idea of deities Correlleon could show up personally in Eberron and most people would just treat him like another kind of demon lord that got free. Remember, the demon lords from the Age of Demons have the power of the typical D&D deity, so any of the usual suspects would be more or less treated as such.

[Millstone85]

Here's a thought a warforged doesn't need to breath, there fore they don't need a spelljammer helm. They can use a regular airship, assuming they can control one somehow, and travel into space.How about a half-elf with the Mark of Storm and ventilating lungs? The later "allow you to breathe normally in any environment (including a vacuum)", so they would be perfect for the job. Or a similar technology could be built into the ship itself, with an air-elemental ring defining the border of the breathable bubble.

Interestingly, online information claims that spelljammers taking a piece of the atmosphere with them has nothing to do with the helm, but is instead an aspect of D&D's very strange and very convenient astrophysics. The helm of the Scavenger in DotMM contradicts this. An edition change, it seems.


Remember, the demon lords from the Age of Demons have the power of the typical D&D deity, so any of the usual suspects would be more or less treated as such.Well, that's kind of a bummer.

[MaxWilson]

Here's a thought a warforged doesn't need to breath, there fore they don't need a spelljammer helm. They can use a regular airship, assuming they can control one somehow, and travel into space.

A helm supplies propulsion at interplanetary speeds, not atmosphere. Atmosphere is supplied by fantasy physics. The problem with taking a regular airship or a Broom of Flying or an undead dragon into space is that it takes thousands of years to get anywhere, whereas spelljamming helms move on the order of IIRC 4 million miles an hour when they're not in tactical mode, making interplanetary travel a matter of mere days.

Warforged have no particular advantage in space unless your helm goes down and you get marooned.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Eberron = Sanctuary. Cool.

I might get this book, it's been so long since I've dealt with eberron that I've forgotten more than I care to admit.

[Fable Wright]

Sidenote:

Eberron's Tiamat and Asmodeus are so much more interesting than their Great Wheel counterparts. I could see a pretty fantastic adventure where Wheel Tiamat has to duke it out with Overlord Tiamat, and Eberron Asmodeus, fresh in his position and badly hurting for souls, has to outplay his older self who had grown old and complacent.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sidenote:

Eberron's Tiamat and Asmodeus are so much more interesting than their Great Wheel counterparts. I could see a pretty fantastic adventure where Wheel Tiamat has to duke it out with Overlord Tiamat, and Eberron Asmodeus, fresh in his position and badly hurting for souls, has to outplay his older self who had grown old and complacent.

This is what I hate about D&D.

No matter how good WotC can be, there will always be a fan that brings up something awesome that I'll never get to see fully fleshed out by a dedicated team.

[HappyDaze]

I might get this book, it's been so long since I've dealt with eberron that I've forgotten more than I care to admit.

I remember not liking Eberron all that much 10-15 years ago. I like the new book and I think most of my problems with Eberron (past and present) are more problems I have with D&D than the setting itself. If it were system neutral and a better system could be attached, I think Eberron would make a fine setting.

[Millstone85]

Eberron's Tiamat and Asmodeus are so much more interesting than their Great Wheel counterparts.Are you talking about fourth edition, where Baator was part of the Orrery? And also part of Forgotten Realms and Nentir Vale's cosmologies, but all in three different continuities.

Probably the worst edition with which to start learning D&D lore. I was so confused.

[Slayn82]

Well, if we are talking Cosmology, there's Ravninca somewhere - and from there, the Blind Eternity, a space between MTG planes that sounds less like the Astral Plane and more close to something like the Far Realms. Case in point: it's the place from where the Eldrazi poped up.

If I'm not mistaken, Ravenloft was hidden somewhere in deep Ethereal? At least it was true once.

I mention this because it's roughly Cannon that some planes can move around and switch relative positions both in MTG and D&D Cosmology. This makes things somewhat close to astronomy or Tectonic plate sciences.

Usual planes are those in the reach from the wheel, firmly locked in place. If it's the outer planes locked by the primary planes, or if the primary planes are locking the outer planes, it's impossible to tell. Maybe what we understand as an outer plane is just a reflection of the true thing on the topological surface of each prime material, and that's why there's multiple versions of them.

Anything outside this arrangement is possibly a Far Realm. Eberron is probably situated in a weird position within this arrangement.

And Ravninca is starting being pulled in the arrangement, like a Galaxy being pulled by a bigger conglomerate.

Thing is: while D&D Cosmology is somewhat Aristotlelic, MTG Cosmology is somewhat Taoist. It's like two different continental plates about to collide into each other.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, if we are talking Cosmology, there's Ravninca somewhere - and from there, the Blind Eternity, a space between MTG planes that sounds less like the Astral Plane and more close to something like the Far Realms. Case in point: it's the place from where the Eldrazi poped up.

IIRC, one of the devs mentioned in a podcast that MtG planes aren't planes in the D&D sense, they are all set on material plane, with Blind Eternities being Spelljammer's Phlogiston between their crystal spheres.

[Fable Wright]

Are you talking about fourth edition, where Baator was part of the Orrery? And also part of Forgotten Realms and Nentir Vale's cosmologies, but all in three different continuities.

Probably the worst edition with which to start learning D&D lore. I was so confused.

I am, though Baator wasn't part of the Orrey proper. It's a relatively small Demiplane rather than the infinite expanse of other planes, and as a result has no manifest zones.

[Millstone85]

If I'm not mistaken, Ravenloft was hidden somewhere in deep Ethereal? At least it was true once.According to the DMG p51, the Domains of Dread are demiplanes that can be reached from "remote corners" of the Shadowfell. It also says that their creators, the Dark Powers, are from the Shadowfell.


IIRC, one of the devs mentioned in a podcast that MtG planes aren't planes in the D&D sense, they are all set on material plane, with Blind Eternities being Spelljammer's Phlogiston between their crystal spheres.That's how I would include these worlds into the Great Wheel, but then I know next to nothing about MtG.


I am, though Baator wasn't part of the Orrey proper. It's a relatively small Demiplane rather than the infinite expanse of other planes, and as a result has no manifest zones.Noted.

[Millstone85]

It occurs to me that, once gods become Eberron's active connection to the Outer Planes, it puts Dolurrh in a similar position as Toril's Fugue Plane, that of a grim gray afterlife that only the gods' followers get to escape. The gods would obviously encourage some souls to accept resurrection so they can testify to this miracle, as it would give a major boost to their churches. The situation would be less sad than on Toril, however, as the Outer Planes might eventually get a direct hold over Eberron's dead.

Speaking of the Realms, it brings me back to a thread I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591251-Toril-s-Sovereign-Host) about a faithful of the Sovereign Host who ended up on Toril and tried to make sense of its gods. Now, assuming that Ao would allow these deities to spread their influence beyond Realmspace (Would he?), here is who I think could make themselves pass for the Sovereigns on Eberron. I am pretty confident in my choices for the Sovereign Host proper, but not so much for the Dark Six.


Arawai
Chauntea
The Keeper
Myrkul


Aureon
Mystra
The Shadow
Shar


Balinor
Silvanus
The Devourer
Malar


Boldrei
Lathander
The Traveler
Leira


Dol Arrah
Torm
The Fury
Hoar


Dol Dorn
Tempus
The Mockery
Cyric


Kol Korran
Waukeen


Olladra
Tymora


Onatar
Gond

[HappyDaze]

It occurs to me that, once gods become Eberron's active connection to the Outer Planes, it puts Dolurrh in a similar position as Toril's Fugue Plane, that of a grim gray afterlife that only the gods' followers get to escape. The gods would obviously encourage some souls to accept resurrection so they can testify to this miracle, as it would give a major boost to their churches. The situation would be less sad than on Toril, however, as the Outer Planes might eventually get a direct hold over Eberron's dead.

Speaking of the Realms, it brings me back to a thread I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591251-Toril-s-Sovereign-Host) about a faithful of the Sovereign Host who ended up on Toril and tried to make sense of its gods. Now, assuming that Ao would allow these deities to spread their influence beyond Realmspace (Would he?), here is who I think could make themselves pass for the Sovereigns on Eberron. I am pretty confident in my choices for the Sovereign Host proper, but not so much for the Dark Six.


Arawai
Chauntea
The Keeper
Myrkul


Aureon
Mystra
The Shadow
Shar


Balinor
Silvanus
The Devourer
Malar


Boldrei
Lathander
The Traveler
Leira


Dol Arrah
Torm
The Fury
Hoar


Dol Dorn
Tempus
The Mockery
Cyric


Kol Korran
Waukeen


Olladra
Tymora


Onatar
Gond



IMO, Devourer fits better with Talos and Fury fits (somewhat) better with Malar.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I remember not liking Eberron all that much 10-15 years ago. I like the new book and I think most of my problems with Eberron (past and present) are more problems I have with D&D than the setting itself. If it were system neutral and a better system could be attached, I think Eberron would make a fine setting.

I may base my future hombrew stuff around eberron and change a couple things about how the world works...

I forget what I didn't like about eberron before, but I'm willing to try again.

[Lille]

IIRC, one of the devs mentioned in a podcast that MtG planes aren't planes in the D&D sense, they are all set on material plane, with Blind Eternities being Spelljammer's Phlogiston between their crystal spheres.

As someone less knowledgeable about D&D terms, I have no understanding of what you just said from "Blind Eternities" on. Would you, or someone else, be willing to clarify that statement for me?

[Millstone85]

As someone less knowledgeable about D&D terms, I have no understanding of what you just said from "Blind Eternities" on. Would you, or someone else, be willing to clarify that statement for me?Spelljammer is a campaign setting about D&D in spaaaaace. According to it, worlds like Krynn (Dragonlance), Oerth (Greyhawk), and Toril (Forgotten Realms), are all on the same plane of existence, the Prime Material, but in different planetary systems. With an appropriate ship, called a spelljammer, it is possible to fly from one system to another without ever opening a planar portal.

Where it gets weird is that each system is inside a bubble, called a crystal sphere. The stars visible from a world's surface are not distant suns, but details of the inner surface of the sphere, like in the old notion of firmament.

Then, the space between the crystal spheres is not a vacuum, but filled with an element called the phlogiston. It is rainbow-colored, highly flammable, and has currents that allow for the equivalent of faster-than-light travel. By contrast, the vacuum inside a crystal sphere is called wildspace.

5e has made multiple references to Spelljammer. For example, VGtM has entries on the giff and the neogi, which are from that setting, while DotMM lets you find a map of Toril's system (which looks like this (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/4f/Realmspace-2e.jpg)) aboard a crashed spelljammer, and also explore one of the Tears of Selûne (asteroids trailing Toril's moon).

I sure hope WotC is working on a Spelljammer setting book.

Meanwhile, "Blind Eternities" is from Magic the Gathering. If I understand correctly, each world, like Ravnica or Zendikar, exists in its own plane, with the Blind Eternities, also known as the Aether, being the plane that connects them.

Now that MtG worlds are being offered as D&D campaign settings, one could imagine these different options:

MtG worlds can be played with 5e game mechanics, but are in no way connected to D&D's cosmology.
Each MtG world exists in its own material plane, smaller than the Prime Material, with the Aether being another name for the Ethereal.
MtG worlds aren't actually in different planes. They are all in the Prime Material, with the aether being another name for the phlogiston.

[Naanomi]

Athas cosmology is in many ways more disparate/discordant with The Great Wheel than Eberron; and yet has been successfully integrated for decades.

If you don’t like Eberron as part of the Great Wheel proper, so remember there are cannon places in the greater cosmology outside of the Great Wheel... even discounting the Far Realm; travel to ‘alternative cosmologies’ has always been historically possible through the Deep Astral and farthest reaches of the Shadow (though that doesn’t fit as well with the current shadow plane conceptualization).

There are also times before the great wheel’s creation and after it’s destruction on the time line, one could always place Eberron before/after the Great Wheel in the time line and have it accessible if needed via epic time-travel

[Fable Wright]

Athas cosmology is in many ways more disparate/discordant with The Great Wheel than Eberron; and yet has been successfully integrated for decades.

You'd think that, but honestly, I'm going to disagree here. Athas cosmology is very different, but only because of what it lacks. It stripped out most planar junk without adding too much, so the only consideration for how to integrate it is how to explain the removals.

Eberron's problem is that it adds things. It adds a new plane entirely, with native archons, devils, and demons; it adds a plane of dreams unlike the Great Wheel; Lammania would just be a section of the Beastlands... if not for the fact that it also has native dao, efreeti, marid, and djinni; and then the manifest zones add a layer of confusion to the whole mix.

It's a lot easier to remove elements than explain a hundred new additions for one crystal sphere only, which is why Eberron has resisted integration more than Athas.

[Naanomi]

Collectively true (though point of clarification: DnD has had a Dream Plane of some sort since Planescape at least); just that there are so many changes... but Ravenloft shows us that unusual Demi-planes reusing Classic Great Wheel assets in their own ways is is not a unique idea in the cosmos.

Heck I see the dark-powers of Ravenloft and the creator dragons of Eberron as very similar narratively: mysterious cosmological entities apparently outside of the normal order of the Great Wheel setting up mini-cosmologies that play by their own rules and with very individualized and tightly controlled ties to the rest of existence, though borrowing a lot of the same ideas and concepts in the process

(Astromundi did a fair amount of that as well; with many Outsiders and Elementals just living on their own planets)

[Millstone85]

Athas cosmology is very different, but only because of what it lacks.I found 4e's description of Athas' feywild to be both epic and hilarious.
Scholars believe that the total amount of the plane remaining in existence, combining all fragments scattered across Athas, would fit inside the walls of Tyr.