Annoying everyone with my incessant questions...

[Drache64]

I am playing an investigator background in 5e and I, as a player, and my character, enjoy to know as much as possible.

Our current DM seems to like to surprise us by having our characters go on missions with little to no information, only to be betrayed and punished for our lack of information.

I'll ask what I think are basic questions such as "where are we going, what's the reward, who are we working for, is there an undead or fiendish presence? Etc." The DM has the NPC or contacts be dodgy because obviously we need to go in unprepared and surprised.

We're currently planning a heist and don't know what we're stealing, if it's actually a heist or an assassination, what the layout of the building is, or really anything in terms of magical traps, defenses, or escape route.

As I try to investigate, I notice sighs and rolling eyes from the group because they are more the smash and grab, run and gun type.

What's the most effective way you guys have to quickly roleplay your character interrogating many NPCs without hogging the lime light?

I was thinking about scribbling all my questions and desired information pieces down on paper and asking the DM if he wants me to roll a straight investigation role to see if I get them or something...

[Kane0]

You could probably boil it down to a single statement to your DM: “I’m going to use my investigator background to gather as much information as possible so i can make a decision. What do i know?”
If the honest answer is ‘nothing’ you are going to have to talk to your DM out of game about it.

[icefractal]

Our current DM seems to like to surprise us by having our characters go on missions with little to no information, only to be betrayed and punished for our lack of information.Wow, that would annoy the crap out of me.

Since he's reluctant to give out information even when asked, we can eliminate the "tough but fair" style where getting info is just part of the challenge and he's trying to teach players to do it. So that leaves:
A) Enjoys seat-of-the-pants "Everything is FUBAR, how do we get out of this one?" situations a lot more than well-planned heists, and leans toward that.
B) Is just a jerk.

Hopefully you can tell which one by how he acts in other ways. If it's B, then leave the game. Or convince the rest of the group to have someone else DM, depending on your relationship to them.
But if it's A ... the best bet may be to change to a foolhardy kick-in-the-door type of character and see if you can enjoy the ride.

You might be able to convince the DM to change his style, but he may have no interest in a game about smart planning and preparation. And the other players might not either, since you mention they're eager to finish the questions and get to the action despite having suffered the consequences before.

If that style is no fun for you, but everyone else enjoys it, then you've got a mismatch of play styles, and may want to look for another group, or at least sit out the games where it clashes the most.

[False God]

While everything you talked about can be highly annoying, here's a possible solution:

3 questions.

When it's your "turn" to ask something, just ask your top 3 questions. No followups (unless you want to substitute one of your 3). You may still find yourself receiving a pittance of information, if any at all. But you'll be less of a "time hog" by keeping the questions few, and importantly: brief.

Understandably, this may not be fun for you. I like to make smart characters with strong investigative skills and when they don't get put to use that sucks. It basically means you made the wrong character for this group.

At the end of the day, maybe you're playing the wrong character for this group.

[Pleh]

At the end of the day, maybe you're playing the wrong character for this group.

I think this may be it. The DM wants you unprepared so they can ambush you with cheap shots and the table thinks you're the problem.

That seems like the indication that it's time to retire the investigator and build something more compatible with smash and grab. Maybe someone skilled at getting the party out of trouble after the DM repeatedly ambushes them with cheap shots.

[Phhase]

God. That sounds like anathema. :smallannoyed: If the characters in universe are being cagey and uptight about it, and then laughing in your face, I really would recommend having your investigator character lose his temper with one since he's been had time and again and is losing his patience with these two-faced idiots. Not like, go on a rampage, but grab em and give em the old stink eye and squeeze em for info. Something about how he's sick and tired of everyone being Yoda. It would be totally in character. Plus it'd give you a valid venting opportunity. Beyond that, yeah, call your DM out (politely), point out the, well, point of your build, and leave if you must.

And really. Why would anyone roll their eyes at someone asking, base, obvious, IMPORTANT questions? Do they LIKE being dumb? Plans and forewarning aren't just for people with 20 INT. I just...I can't comprehend this. It sounds like you're being completely reasonable. It's one thing to say "Sorry man, no idea" but a whole other to repeatedly go "OooOooOOoooooh, I dunnooooo.......I can't tell you that....." and then later "HA, you we so stupid to believe me! Perish for your childish naivety!"

[Drache64]

God. That sounds like anathema. :smallannoyed: If the characters in universe are being cagey and uptight about it, and then laughing in your face, I really would recommend having your investigator character lose his temper with one since he's been had time and again and is losing his patience with these two-faced idiots. Not like, go on a rampage, but grab em and give em the old stink eye and squeeze em for info. Something about how he's sick and tired of everyone being Yoda. It would be totally in character. Plus it'd give you a valid venting opportunity. Beyond that, yeah, call your DM out (politely), point out the, well, point of your build, and leave if you must.

And really. Why would anyone roll their eyes at someone asking, base, obvious, IMPORTANT questions? Do they LIKE being dumb? Plans and forewarning aren't just for people with 20 INT. I just...I can't comprehend this. It sounds like you're being completely reasonable. It's one thing to say "Sorry man, no idea" but a whole other to repeatedly go "OooOooOOoooooh, I dunnooooo.......I can't tell you that....." and then later "HA, you we so stupid to believe me! Perish for your childish naivety!"

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

[Droid Tony]

Well....


Why do you have so many questions and what so much detail? Is the answer just ''you like details"? Ok, but why? If you like details for ''no reason", you might want to consider simply ''not liking" details for ''no reason" and simply playing the game.

Do you love detail and a good story? Do you want to play the part of a character in a near epic novel like expereince? If, so.....well, RPG might not be for you. Most RPGs, and even more so many GMs are simply not really epic detailed storytelling masterpeices. You would be much better off reading a novel to get your detail and story need filled. RPGs by nature are very 'action adventure' type things, so lots of action adventure and nearly nothing else.

Would you be satisfied with non-answers to your questions? Do you just want answers? Are you fine with meaningless out of context answers as long as they are an answer? Like you work for Lord Fan who is doing this for money and he will pay you in money and you will likely fight monsters. This that enough detail for you? If so, tell your DM. They should have an easy time telling you non answers.

Is your GM into detail at all? Does your GM use the word Sandbox a lot? The word Improv a lot? Do they say things like they partner with the 'other players' to make a cooperative gameplay experience? Does your GM brag about how cool it is that they can make up a game in seconds out of nothing at all? When the GM describes something, how much detail do they use? Do they use big, descriptive words? Does your GM have a TON of notes about the game and game world?

so see what kind of GM you have: there is good chance you have a detail less GM. Simply put: the GM can't EVER answer any of your questions as the answers not only don't exist, but the GM has no desire or intrest in making them up.

Why are your characters doing X? The answer is: it's the game, just play along.

Now if you like detail, you might simply need to find another GM.

Do you understand that a novel like detailed storytelling game is S-L-O-W? And can you, AND all the other players accept that sometimes you might play the game for HOURS and have no action, adventure or combat? This is where it get tricky. Even if the GM had some slight detail about the game and game world, it's all pointless unless you the player know it ALL. And that takes time...tons and tons and tons and tons of time. And everyone has to be willing to accept that.

It is all fine for the GM to answer the question ''who do we work for?" with the answer "Lord Jazw Forquat". But, of course THEN you have to ask "who is Lord Jazw Forquat?" and likely at least twenty or so follow up questions to put everything in context...and twenty or so questions for each of those answers, and so on. It can take hours to do so and it's not really ''game play", it's just talking to many people.

Lastly...Are you asking for details to Gottha the Gm with a sneaky Exploit? Is your whole asking questions bit just a sneaky way to attack the GM with a gottha and attempt to ruin the game? Are you waiting on the edge of your seat for the GM to slip up or make some sort of mistake that you can then exploit? Are you just dying to say something like "HAHA GM I do X, as last week you said Y! So i do X and you can't stop me!!" If your this type of player....well, good luck.

[tomandtish]

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin. A days ride south of here
What are we clearing out Some kind of large furry humanoid
What counts as proof Bring back ears
What's the job pay 20 gp per ear
Who is giving the mission The town mayor
Can I ask this person for more information Reword this to "Does this person have anymore information"? That makes it one question instead of two (since your initial question is asking if you can ask)

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

I'm going to have to agree with others who say this is a player/DM issue and not a character issue. Sounds like you are wanting to play different games.

For me, the questions above are BASIC questions that all the PCs should want to know the answers to, even if the answers are basic. As a DM, I would expect these questions from any remotely experienced character, even with lower than average intelligence. See my responses above.

[GrayDeath]

I'm going to have to agree with others who say this is a player/DM issue and not a character issue. Sounds like you are wanting to play different games.

For me, the questions above are BASIC questions that all the PCs should want to know the answers to, even if the answers are basic. As a DM, I would expect these questions from any remotely experienced character, even with lower than average intelligence. See my responses above.

I`d go one further and say that if I DM (and not giving some of the info isnt the point of the plot, and then I smile evilishly at the player who notices it^^) I would pre-empt these questions by providing AT LEAST that much Info, then ask the player with the highest Knowledge Local or History to roll for further Info if they want to know what "usually happens" around that ruin.

But then again, I like detail, immersion and most of all internal consistency.

[Drache64]

Well....


Why do you have so many questions and what so much detail? Is the answer just ''you like details"? Ok, but why? If you like details for ''no reason", you might want to consider simply ''not liking" details for ''no reason" and simply playing the game.

Do you love detail and a good story? Do you want to play the part of a character in a near epic novel like expereince? If, so.....well, RPG might not be for you. Most RPGs, and even more so many GMs are simply not really epic detailed storytelling masterpeices. You would be much better off reading a novel to get your detail and story need filled. RPGs by nature are very 'action adventure' type things, so lots of action adventure and nearly nothing else.

Would you be satisfied with non-answers to your questions? Do you just want answers? Are you fine with meaningless out of context answers as long as they are an answer? Like you work for Lord Fan who is doing this for money and he will pay you in money and you will likely fight monsters. This that enough detail for you? If so, tell your DM. They should have an easy time telling you non answers.

Is your GM into detail at all? Does your GM use the word Sandbox a lot? The word Improv a lot? Do they say things like they partner with the 'other players' to make a cooperative gameplay experience? Does your GM brag about how cool it is that they can make up a game in seconds out of nothing at all? When the GM describes something, how much detail do they use? Do they use big, descriptive words? Does your GM have a TON of notes about the game and game world?

so see what kind of GM you have: there is good chance you have a detail less GM. Simply put: the GM can't EVER answer any of your questions as the answers not only don't exist, but the GM has no desire or intrest in making them up.

Why are your characters doing X? The answer is: it's the game, just play along.

Now if you like detail, you might simply need to find another GM.

Do you understand that a novel like detailed storytelling game is S-L-O-W? And can you, AND all the other players accept that sometimes you might play the game for HOURS and have no action, adventure or combat? This is where it get tricky. Even if the GM had some slight detail about the game and game world, it's all pointless unless you the player know it ALL. And that takes time...tons and tons and tons and tons of time. And everyone has to be willing to accept that.

It is all fine for the GM to answer the question ''who do we work for?" with the answer "Lord Jazw Forquat". But, of course THEN you have to ask "who is Lord Jazw Forquat?" and likely at least twenty or so follow up questions to put everything in context...and twenty or so questions for each of those answers, and so on. It can take hours to do so and it's not really ''game play", it's just talking to many people.

Lastly...Are you asking for details to Gottha the Gm with a sneaky Exploit? Is your whole asking questions bit just a sneaky way to attack the GM with a gottha and attempt to ruin the game? Are you waiting on the edge of your seat for the GM to slip up or make some sort of mistake that you can then exploit? Are you just dying to say something like "HAHA GM I do X, as last week you said Y! So i do X and you can't stop me!!" If your this type of player....well, good luck.

Kind of none of those, I like details because I want to know why I am doing something and what I'm doing it for. I want to be prepared. Is the quest under water? I'll buy a portion of water breathing. Are we fighting undead? I'll buy some holy oil.

Case in point, in the post above I gave what my questions were and showed how I got no answers regarding them, so our party went in blind despite trying to get more info.

Here's what happened:
We stole an artifact of the devourer, gave it to a demon possessed princess, got rewarded 5 gold each and now are planning a heist to steal it back because we didn't know who we were working for, what the item was and that it was for essentially no reward.

[noob]

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

There is an answer: "If you do not tell your pay it probably means you do not intend to pay us or intend to give us one single copper or give us a cursed artefact that will kill us all so we are going elsewhere to get a job with an actual pay"
Because it is entirely nonsensical to work for someone who does not even say the pay.
It is not a detective thing to refuse jobs with no defined pay: it is called not having died of hunger after being scammed.
You can prove that simply by saying to the gm "In the real life would you work for someone if they did not tell you your pay?"

[Droid Tony]

Kind of none of those, I like details because I want to know why I am doing something and what I'm doing it for. I want to be prepared. Is the quest under water? I'll buy a portion of water breathing. Are we fighting undead? I'll buy some holy oil.

So your reason is....''you just like to know for no real reason" and you are trying ''win" the game vs your DM.

Now the ''just wanting to know for no reason is an easy one: just drop it. Be clueless, be happy and play the game.

Make the Game too East.....well, here is the real problem: you want insider information to exploit the game, maybe even ruin the game. So this is a big problem...and it's likely why your DM tells you nothing.

See it's a version of fun for you to find out a foe is X, then use that by getting anti foe x things and when you have foe x encounter you win it easy. You might think this is fun, and even clever.....but really you are just disrupting and ruining the game. To use a bit of detail that you got or tricked the DM into telling you and then using it to your advantage in the game is NOT good game play. Now, granted this sort of bad thing is made into the rules: you you don't have to use them.

And really, game rule wise, there is no point in doing such a sneaky thing. If you ''make an encounter too easy", then you get less XP. And even worse, you just force the DM to use things that don't have an Easy to Defeat button.







Here's what happened:
We stole an artifact of the devourer, gave it to a demon possessed princess, got rewarded 5 gold each and now are planning a heist to steal it back because we didn't know who we were working for, what the item was and that it was for essentially no reward.

Ok, now this just sounds like not only a bad DM, but a jerk DM. You might really want to think about leaving this game....

[Drache64]

So your reason is....''you just like to know for no real reason" and you are trying ''win" the game vs your DM.

Now the ''just wanting to know for no reason is an easy one: just drop it. Be clueless, be happy and play the game.

Make the Game too East.....well, here is the real problem: you want insider information to exploit the game, maybe even ruin the game. So this is a big problem...and it's likely why your DM tells you nothing.

See it's a version of fun for you to find out a foe is X, then use that by getting anti foe x things and when you have foe x encounter you win it easy. You might think this is fun, and even clever.....but really you are just disrupting and ruining the game. To use a bit of detail that you got or tricked the DM into telling you and then using it to your advantage in the game is NOT good game play. Now, granted this sort of bad thing is made into the rules: you you don't have to use them.

And really, game rule wise, there is no point in doing such a sneaky thing. If you ''make an encounter too easy", then you get less XP. And even worse, you just force the DM to use things that don't have an Easy to Defeat button.







Ok, now this just sounds like not only a bad DM, but a jerk DM. You might really want to think about leaving this game....

That's a really offensive and incorrect take, you're entitled to your opinion but I respectfully disagree and I'll choose not to engage any further dialogue down this path.

[noob]

And really, game rule wise, there is no point in doing such a sneaky thing. If you ''make an encounter too easy", then you get less XP. And even worse, you just force the DM to use things that don't have an Easy to Defeat button.

the rules of dnd are clear that the xp from an encounter depends on how you were supposed to fight it.
If you were supposed to fight the undead in the evil city by drowning it in holy water with a portal from an heavenly realm you get low amounts of xp for getting rid of the undead even if you fight them all at once with only a spoon.
Likewise if you were supposed to fight all the undead with a spoon you get a lot of xp even if you skip that and instead make the undead kill each other by triggering a war between them.
Xp does not depends on the method you use but instead of the method you were supposed to use.
You have not understood the xp system of dnd.
You might play a dnd with different rules that follows the rule you said but then specify that you are not playing any of the WOTC dnd but instead using your homebrew dnd and if possible link the rules of your homebrew dnd.


Make the Game too East.....well, here is the real problem: you want insider information to exploit the game, maybe even ruin the game. So this is a big problem...and it's likely why your DM tells you nothing.

See it's a version of fun for you to find out a foe is X, then use that by getting anti foe x things and when you have foe x encounter you win it easy. You might think this is fun, and even clever.....but really you are just disrupting and ruining the game. To use a bit of detail that you got or tricked the DM into telling you and then using it to your advantage in the game is NOT good game play. Now, granted this sort of bad thing is made into the rules: you you don't have to use them.
Well then I accuse you of cheating at real life by using insider information by asking your boss what your wage is when recruited for a job.
You are an horrible cheater and should be banned from real life.
It would be what I would be saying about you if I judged you with the tools you used in that quote.
The creator of the thread literally got his question about wage refused so if you consider questioning for the information the poster wanted is cheating then asking to know your wage is cheating so you cheated in real life.

[Boci]

Ok, now this just sounds like not only a bad DM, but a jerk DM. You might really want to think about leaving this game....

I like how you got this far and changed your opinion, but decided that the first part of your post (where you accused someone of asking basic questions of being "sneaky") was so well written and englightening that it would be a waste to just delete it.

[Drache64]

the rules of dnd are clear that the xp from an encounter depends on how you were supposed to fight it.
If you were supposed to fight the undead in the evil city by drowning it in holy water with a portal from an heavenly realm you get low amounts of xp for getting rid of the undead even if you fight them all at once with only a spoon.
Likewise if you were supposed to fight all the undead with a spoon you get a lot of xp even if you skip that and instead make the undead kill each other by triggering a war between them.
Xp does not depends on the method you use but instead of the method you were supposed to use.
You have not understood the xp system of dnd.
You might play a dnd with different rules that follows the rule you said but then specify that you are not playing any of the WOTC dnd but instead using your homebrew dnd and if possible link the rules of your homebrew dnd.


Well then I accuse you of cheating in real life by using insider information by asking your boss what your wage is when recruited for a job.
You are an horrible cheater and should be banned from real life.
It would be what I would be saying about you if I judged you with the tools you used in that quote.

We use XP variant milestones.

But the point isn't to make the game easy mode, it's to play an investigator who asks the right questions.

I like to think my character is smart and calculated. It's very outside his character to just waltz in no questions asked guns blazing.

To those who accused that my play style is to break the game, my last character was an orc barbarian with an intelligence of 6 and I refused to have my character understand certain things and willingly got into trouble many times.

[Boci]

To those who accused that my play style is to break the game, my last character was an orc barbarian with an intelligence of 6 and I refused to have my character understand certain things and willingly got into trouble many times.

I'd also challenge such people to point out how exactly basic information will break the game.

"Well if you find out you're going to be fighting undead by asking NPCs, you'll just use that information to win the encounter"

"How?"

"Well, you'll take equipment to win against them"

"What? Holywater? It deals radient 2d4 damage. Is there a "kill undead, no save" item I'm forgetting?"

I wonder how people who think the above is cheating would react in a game where an encounter can be resolved with someone asking "Look, do we really disagree with eachother enough to risk dying over?" Because there are games like that.

[noob]

We use XP variant milestones.

But the point isn't to make the game easy mode, it's to play an investigator who asks the right questions.

I like to think my character is smart and calculated. It's very outside his character to just waltz in no questions asked guns blazing.

To those who accused that my play style is to break the game, my last character was an orc barbarian with an intelligence of 6 and I refused to have my character understand certain things and willingly got into trouble many times.

It was an answer to a separate question.
I agree that it is silly to get the wage question refused and I think the normal reaction a character that did not die of hunger through incompetence to the lack of answer to the question "what is the wage?" is saying "We will not do that job without knowing the wage so I will seek another job with a better employer and become waiter in a bar before thinking about accepting a job with no specified wage"

[KineticDiplomat]

Sounds like a game mismatch. There is a style of RPG-ing (and many would say D&D is rooted in it) that basically focuses on dungeon crawling into the unknown. The plot, like that of an XXX movie, only exists in a flimsy manner to move you into the next main event.

In that style of game, you find out about the dungeon by breaking your way through it, and if room seven has Monster X, you find out as you approach room seven. And it isn’t considered the GM sucker-punching, anymore than running into a different enemy in Diablo is.

Not, to my mind, a very enjoyable way to RPG (indeed, D&D’s mechanical inclinations to lean this way are one of the reasons I rarely play), but one that many still do.

Unfortunately for you, in that type of game not only is an investigator not particularly useful, it runs contrary to the grain of the game. You don’t find out you’re killing goblins by asking, you find out by entering floor one, room one.

To that end, have you perhaps considered a different table, or even a different game system? Shadow run comes to mind as one of the big ones that can be played legwork heavy, or any of the WoD games, but there’s lots of other systems that are very much more in tune with the type of game you’d enjoy.

[Quertus]

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.


I`d go one further and say that if I DM (and not giving some of the info isnt the point of the plot, and then I smile evilishly at the player who notices it^^) I would pre-empt these questions by providing AT LEAST that much Info, then ask the player with the highest Knowledge Local or History to roll for further Info if they want to know what "usually happens" around that ruin.

But then again, I like detail, immersion and most of all internal consistency.

"What are we clearing out?"
"I don't know - whatever it was that killed my mapping party."

The last question is badly worded, and it's possible that the quest giver doesn't know what's there (which could limit their ability to give a predefined definition of "proof"). Especially in ShadowRun, the NPC might not be at liberty to answer who is actually giving the quest. But, outside some rather unusual circumstances, an NPC who does not volunteer this information when giving you a job offer comes across as either suspicious or moronic (or both!), and this GM comes off as an Int 6 Barbarian, getting his jollies from trying to make the PCs look pants on head stupid (or whose planned railroad falls apart if you think about it at all²).

However, he has apparently built up a culture of abuse acceptance, where the other players actually enjoy that style of game, and find your actions disruptive. So, yes, this is a style mismatch, and I think you have to ask yourself whether you find this GMs behavior as abusive as I would¹, or whether you're comfortable playing in a "band of idiots" game.

¹ outside the GM clearly selling this as a "band of idiots" game, in which case I would likely just pass, but be on the lookout for abusive behavior from that GM.

² in which case, I would challenge him to see if he has the necessary intellect to run a good game, that isn't such a fragile railroad… although you could also choose to tread lightly, and not break things, I suppose.

[Chaos Jackal]

*snip*

Asking what the job is has nothing to do with "cheating", "being sneaky", "ruining the game" or anything of the kind. It's being reasonable. If you're about to do something as potentially dangerous as a heist, per the example given, you're not being an exploiting player if you ask for information on it. You're being a reasonable in-game character asking why would they stick out their neck. Unless, of course, you find the idea of breaking the law for some unnamed guy over some unknown reward reasonable instead.

To the OP, as others have said, this is likely not the game for you. I honestly find it hard to believe that not only would the DM not give out any information but at the same time all players feel disgruntled if someone asks the most mundane thing, but if that's the case, not just an investigator, but any character with an Int of 4 or more doesn't work. Even Thorg the barbarian would ask what he'd be fighting or what he's being paid. Sure, they might be content with "You're fighting really big lizards, nothing dangerous", but he'd still most likely ask.

As you describe it, the game is in fact an old-style dungeoncrawler (you're in here to fight and loot... stuff), stylized thinly as a heist or whatever job it is you're undertaking every time in order to turn the classic "You open the door... and the necromancer whirls around, his skeletons lunging at you! You weren't expecting this!" to "You handle over the stolen artifact... and the client turns out to be a necromancer, as his skeletons lunge at you! You weren't expecting this!".

Asking questions is natural. Maybe not asking the client's age, education and year of marriage, but his name? At least wing it Reservoir Dogs style and call everyone Mr. Pink and Mr. Green. But at least call them something. Not all questions will be answered, you might not always know what you're fighting or what's in the package you deliver, but at the very least you should know your reward and something about the employer. Else why would you risk your life?

Talk with your DM. With the rest of the table too, individually or as a whole. Work out whether or not it's actually plausible for you to expect to receive some basic info, preferably without a chorus of grunts accompanying that. Else... you're probably better off at another table, or rolling a mute barbarian that doesn't know sign language or how to write.

[Calthropstu]

"What are we clearing out?"
"I don't know - whatever it was that killed my mapping party."

The last question is badly worded, and it's possible that the quest giver doesn't know what's there (which could limit their ability to give a predefined definition of "proof"). Especially in ShadowRun, the NPC might not be at liberty to answer who is actually giving the quest. But, outside some rather unusual circumstances, an NPC who does not volunteer this information when giving you a job offer comes across as either suspicious or moronic (or both!), and this GM comes off as an Int 6 Barbarian, getting his jollies from trying to make the PCs look pants on head stupid (or whose planned railroad falls apart if you think about it at all²).

However, he has apparently built up a culture of abuse acceptance, where the other players actually enjoy that style of game, and find your actions disruptive. So, yes, this is a style mismatch, and I think you have to ask yourself whether you find this GMs behavior as abusive as I would¹, or whether you're comfortable playing in a "band of idiots" game.

¹ outside the GM clearly selling this as a "band of idiots" game, in which case I would likely just pass, but be on the lookout for abusive behavior from that GM.

² in which case, I would challenge him to see if he has the necessary intellect to run a good game, that isn't such a fragile railroad… although you could also choose to tread lightly, and not break things, I suppose.

I agree with this.
It is easily possible to not have basic information, especially given all the shadowy figures in rpgs. But the pay is something that is so basic, no one would even think of going without hammering it down. There are exceptions of course. A super hero campaign would expect the heroes to jump into the unknown to save little timmy after he disappears from the bottom of the well for no pay at all.
Pay can also be things other than money of course. But barring some serious circumstances, payment is an absolute discussion.

Not giving at least that shouts "FLAG"

[Zakhara]

Asking what the job is has nothing to do with "cheating", "being sneaky", "ruining the game" or anything of the kind. It's being reasonable. If you're about to do something as potentially dangerous as a heist, per the example given, you're not being an exploiting player if you ask for information on it. You're being a reasonable in-game character asking why would they stick out their neck...

...As you describe it, the game is in fact an old-style dungeoncrawler (you're in here to fight and loot... stuff), stylized thinly as a heist or whatever job it is you're undertaking every time in order to turn the classic "You open the door... and the necromancer whirls around, his skeletons lunging at you! You weren't expecting this!" to "You handle over the stolen artifact... and the client turns out to be a necromancer, as his skeletons lunge at you! You weren't expecting this!"

The thing is, even the most rudimentary of old-school dungeon delves permit far more nuance in questioning; planning, resource/risk management, negotiation, and mining situations for relevant details are always preferable to risking a roll on something.

The idea of "the conversation" is possibly the oldest 'rule' in the medium. This DM here not only damages verisimilitude with their cagey responses, they violate one of the basic tenets of gameplay: describing things so that players know what's happening.

[Mr Beer]

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

I would refuse to go on the mission, that's ridiculous. The mission giver doesn't have to map everything out for you but if they decline to provide these basic parameters, what's going on? Like are we in the fantasy equivalent of a Soviet-era punishment battalion and we're on mine-clearing duty ahead of the real soldiers?

[Nightcanon]

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

To me this sounds like a problem with the DM. If someone calls you to a courtyard to give you a quest, then at the very least you get to interact with that someone. Who are they? Are they the local authority? If not, do they speak on behalf of said authority? Will I have the authority of Lord Steve if I march into the abandoned castle and tell the bandits to leave? Does the quest giver seem plausible?
They can be evasive, they may not know the answers to some of your questions, they can be playing out their own scheme (they say they work for Lord Steve, but actually anyone can access the courtyard of the keep on a market day, and they are in fact a merchant, not Lord Steve's Castellan/ they are the Castellan, but are secretly in the pay of a neighbouring fiefdom and are sending you to trigger a border skirmish that will give a pretext for an invasion), but this isn't a computer game, and you should get to interact with the NPCs.
The answer to "what will we face there?" can be a sympathetic "I'm afraid I don't know, but please hurry", or a snappy "if I knew that, I wouldn't have send you, would I?", or simply incorrect: "two dozen kobolds armed with clubs" when in fact it's an elite drow raiding party. But you get to ask, and you get some info back, even if it's just 'this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and doesn't care if he gets us killed'.

[Willie the Duck]

As you describe it, the game is in fact an old-style dungeoncrawler (you're in here to fight and loot... stuff), stylized thinly as a heist or whatever job it is you're undertaking every time in order to turn the classic "You open the door... and the necromancer whirls around, his skeletons lunging at you! You weren't expecting this!" to "You handle over the stolen artifact... and the client turns out to be a necromancer, as his skeletons lunge at you! You weren't expecting this!".



The thing is, even the most rudimentary of old-school dungeon delves permit far more nuance in questioning; planning, resource/risk management, negotiation, and mining situations for relevant details are always preferable to risking a roll on something.

The idea of "the conversation" is possibly the oldest 'rule' in the medium. This DM here not only damages verisimilitude with their cagey responses, they violate one of the basic tenets of gameplay: describing things so that players know what's happening.


I have to agree with Zakhara. Old school dungeon crawling definitely didn't put much emphasis on why you were in the dungeon seeking loot, but it absolutely focused on finding out as much information about the situation as possible (if for no other reason than there weren't many mechanical methods of increasing your success odds, so the way to succeed was almost entirely controlled by your ability to show up in the right room at the right time at the right point in your side's resource-availability. Information was the most valuable resource possible).

[Chaos Jackal]

I'm not denying that there was and can be plenty of research included in dungeon delving.

There were (and still are) games which pretty much start and end in the dungeon, and where there's not much information going around because there's literally no background for the whole thing.

Of course information is key. But you're obtaining it during the run, many times through trial and error. The wheres and the whys, the basic info regarding the whole thing, remain unanswered or are vaguely defined, because nobody really cares in such scenarios. Such scenarios don't focus on where or what they are, they focus on trying to find out what comes next, as you pointed out.

That's not the OP's case. The OP starts outside the dungeon (or whatever is the equivalent in each session). Yet they're still told to get in there, and are given no reason for it. The problem isn't what they ask during (although they're liable to receive even less information than dungeon delvers, as you pointed out). They start what is essentially a dungeon crawling session, and are being glared at for trying to remind others that there's a world outside the dungeon this time.

It's not a matter of wondering whether the necromancer's behind the door, to extend the previous example. It's a matter of not even knowing the necromancer exists, or how his death will benefit you. The entire deal is reduced to the surprise behind the door. Which is a dungeoncrawler trope.

It was a rudimentary example to highlight a point, not a direct comparison. Fact of the matter is, there's no such thing as "annoying" questions when you have less answers and info than you'd have if you started a dungeon crawling-only game by being in the dungeon already.

[denthor]

Would you take this job?

Ok to start 1/2 orcs are hated. I will hold the spear for you to impale yourself, but no food for you.

A bar in the seedy side of town is looking for 31 men 1/2 orcs preferred.

He says it is 30 days of rowing a galley paid in advance 30 gold. You will accept a spell from Nightshade a blue 1/2 orc who has a reputation of over paying. A gold a day really over paying most pay 2 silver per day.

Oh your investigator you also know an evil king in Cuba has a 10,000 gold piece bounty for her head.

What would be your questions?

[Kane0]

If your group has the right sense of humor, reverse the problem. Don’t give any detail about what you’re doing and sigh when you’re asked for details.
Read the room first though.

[noob]

Would you take this job?

Ok to start 1/2 orcs are hated. I will hold the spear for you to impale yourself, but no food for you.

A bar in the seedy side of town is looking for 31 men 1/2 orcs preferred.

He says it is 30 days of rowing a galley paid in advance 30 gold. You will accept a spell from Nightshade a blue 1/2 orc who has a reputation of over paying. A gold a day really over paying most pay 2 silver per day.

Oh your investigator you also know an evil king in Cuba has a 10,000 gold piece bounty for her head.

What would be your questions?

None because according to profession checks rules I can probably get more money by cooking or by weaving baskets underwater so I would probably not be a candidate for that job.
If I felt killing the evil king of cuba was needed I would try to find a good successor first rather than letting the quest giver pick the most evil successor or something like that.(I would also avoid being seen with such a huge group: huge groups plotting coups are easier to notice than smaller groups)

[Onos]

Would you take this job?

Ok to start 1/2 orcs are hated. I will hold the spear for you to impale yourself, but no food for you.

A bar in the seedy side of town is looking for 31 men 1/2 orcs preferred.

He says it is 30 days of rowing a galley paid in advance 30 gold. You will accept a spell from Nightshade a blue 1/2 orc who has a reputation of over paying. A gold a day really over paying most pay 2 silver per day.

Oh your investigator you also know an evil king in Cuba has a 10,000 gold piece bounty for her head.

What would be your questions?

1. Where are we rowing to?
1A. Does my character know if this is near Cuba and the evil king?

2. What spell exactly am I accepting from Nightshade?
2A. Is accepting this spell intended as a full or partial replacement of the stated wages?
2B. If applicable, Arcana check to make sure it is the spell she says it is.

3. Not so much a direct question as investigating Nightshades circumstances. Such as does she appear to be alone? What's the likelihood of us simply kidnapping her either for the 10 grand bounty or the 1000 gold she has to hire the crew?

4. Again, not so much a question as checking circumstances. Is Nightshade being even remotely subtle or walking about in broad daylight? Are we currently near Cuba? Allied/at war with/neutral towards them?

Honestly, it's probably always a good idea to ask questions unless you're specifically playing a "murder hobos on tour" style campaign.

[denthor]

1. Where are we rowing to?
1A. Does my character know if this is near Cuba and the evil king?

2. What spell exactly am I accepting from Nightshade?
2A. Is accepting this spell intended as a full or partial replacement of the stated wages?
2B. If applicable, Arcana check to make sure it is the spell she says it is.

3. Not so much a direct question as investigating Nightshades circumstances. Such as does she appear to be alone? What's the likelihood of us simply kidnapping her either for the 10 grand bounty or the 1000 gold she has to hire the crew?

4. Again, not so much a question as checking circumstances. Is Nightshade being even remotely subtle or walking about in broad daylight? Are we currently near Cuba? Allied/at war with/neutral towards them?

Honestly, it's probably always a good idea to ask questions unless you're specifically playing a "murder hobos on tour" style campaign.

1. Tavern owner does not know. He was hired to get rowers, who are down on their luck and need money now why you are paid in advance.

1A. Job is offered in Key West Florida. 90 miles (km)from Cuba.

2. When Nightshade arrive is everyone ready to teleport. If you are in the first group tavern owner does not know. You receive your gold to keep yourself or can be given to your family. If given to family you are allowed 1 more day to make up your mind. She takes 4 people a day.

2A the spell is free of charge you get 30 gold pieces before spell is cast. 1st group finds out upon taking employment. All other groups know in advance.

2B. Tavern owner does not know what spell you can try arcana check. Tavern owner knows she is supposed to chaotic good and wealthy.

3. She travels with a group of two to ten adventures. Has been hunted for 3 to 5 years has worked for the king of dragons. High level druids and has a mixed reputation for getting positive results. She pisses groups off.

4. Thing you know, she does not her 8th level high priest has been captured by some one.
She is known in Key West to visit a shrine to Desna frequently. She stay and pays for the damages in a high class bar and inn where other good adventures of the realm stay by reputation only Druids use same bar. Damages are not from her, her party and hunters of her party are rough and tumble.
She is teleport or dimension door capable.

She tends to use web in town. There have been at this point four attempts in Key West proper (police reports). She has a never damaged an attacker police reports show mid level fear spell used(4th level for game purposes) during 1st attack.
The city guard will at times assign a 10 to 15 man squad to make sure she does not get lost in town. Has happened 6 or seven times DC 5

There were three assassination attempts made at the seedy bar during the pick ups. Members of the local thieves guild took some of the rower spots. Unknown to her she asked one question who gets the gold and when?


5. You did not ask this , but if you go down to the docks the ship she is a crew member of the minnow (three hour tour boat) take six people to run. Is fully staffed without her she is away party leader. Ship is not in harbor left 2 or 3 months ago. It can not hold 30 people does not need rowers.

She has never hired anyone, but tradesmen in this town has glass apples made, is disliked by Asher(she calls him Abernathy) the town magic item creator will create for her, but has his apprentice speak with her. Apprentice says he uses her name but she has never asked his.

Oh, yeah she is one rude bitch. Since Key West is a large town you may know or find out the Sioux like her. The Blackfeet tribe has a kill on sight if in their territory. This is a DC 25 for both due to distance.

We use real world geography in are game easiest for us.

Dwarven lands she merely tolerated not allowed beyond visits quarters any longer. Normal for dwarves dc 30 to find out she was once allowed anywhere with a single dwarf guard normally a priest of the no longer highly worshiped lawful good god Mordin. You will also find dc 15 her group in the past has been a part of bringing Asmodes ruler of all hells attention back.
DC 30 the Greek goddess Hera is currently has an interest but to trivial to hire anyone.
DC 20 the Greek god Posiden has a smile for her. She seems wrapped up in bringing ancient cult gods back to the plane.

DC 30. Something went wrong during a a sacrifice on good holy ground an evil god showed up. She thinks it was tiamat
Anything else?

[Unavenger]

Yeah, if the DM won't tell you how much you're being paid for the quest, you're totally in the right to think that's ridiculous. In real life, the only reason I would take a job without being told how much I'm being paid is because there's a law that says that it's at least £7.50 an hour, and I wouldn't take a commission-based job without a specified payout at all. If someone says they'll pay you to bring back proof that you've killed something, it's not only entirely reasonable to want to know how much they're paying you to bring back what proof of killing what, it's unreasonable not to want to know that.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lol this made my morning. Thank you.

To provide context here is an example quote:
DM: you are all called to the courtyard, you are asked to clear a nearby ruin and provide proof.

My questions:
Where is the ruin.
What are we clearing out
What counts as proof
What's the job pay
Who is giving the mission
Can I ask this person for more information

The only answer I got was where the ruins are.

Kill two birds with one stone.

Come up with a list of generic questions, kinda like this. Also ask questions that might not be relevant (What's the situation like in that area? Are there locations of interest near it? Is it known for any rumors?, etc).

Roll your skill check. Write it at the top of the list. Underline, circle it.

Hand it to your DM. Tell him to fill it out.

If you rolled high, and he gives you nothing, on questions that are basically his terms, then call him out on it. Politely. Or ask for a different benefit for your investments that's as valuable as having the answers you asked for. It is the worst thing in the world when a player's investment is voided due to DM fiat.

[Calthropstu]

WELCOME HERP DERP.

Have your investigator say something to the tune of "Well, this job sounds splendid it really does... but I am afraid we will have to take a hard pass. Well, at least I will be taking a hard pass. If the rest of you want to, good luck. If you need someone to replace me, I know of someone who is a brain dead idiot who can be talked into going on a dangerous quest with no specified reward."

You then present an atrociously bad character with int and wis at around 5 and play him as a total idiot and get up to hilarious hijinks that annoy and amuse. "What's that? We need to make sure princess isn't killed by the bad guys? OK." *Kills the princess* "She not killed by bad guys. She killed by me instead. We go collect reward now right?"

[Kane0]

WELCOME HERP DERP.

Have your investigator say something to the tune of "Well, this job sounds splendid it really does... but I am afraid we will have to take a hard pass. Well, at least I will be taking a hard pass. If the rest of you want to, good luck. If you need someone to replace me, I know of someone who is a brain dead idiot who can be talked into going on a dangerous quest with no specified reward."

You then present an atrociously bad character with int and wis at around 5 and play him as a total idiot and get up to hilarious hijinks that annoy and amuse. "What's that? We need to make sure princess isn't killed by the bad guys? OK." *Kills the princess* "She not killed by bad guys. She killed by me instead. We go collect reward now right?"

Bonus points for naming yourself The Black Whirlwind.

[Onos]

1. Tavern owner does not know. He was hired to get rowers, who are down on their luck and need money now why you are paid in advance.

1A. Job is offered in Key West Florida. 90 miles (km)from Cuba.

2. When Nightshade arrive is everyone ready to teleport. If you are in the first group tavern owner does not know. You receive your gold to keep yourself or can be given to your family. If given to family you are allowed 1 more day to make up your mind. She takes 4 people a day.

2A the spell is free of charge you get 30 gold pieces before spell is cast. 1st group finds out upon taking employment. All other groups know in advance.

2B. Tavern owner does not know what spell you can try arcana check. Tavern owner knows she is supposed to chaotic good and wealthy.

3. She travels with a group of two to ten adventures. Has been hunted for 3 to 5 years has worked for the king of dragons. High level druids and has a mixed reputation for getting positive results. She pisses groups off.

4. Thing you know, she does not her 8th level high priest has been captured by some one.
She is known in Key West to visit a shrine to Desna frequently. She stay and pays for the damages in a high class bar and inn where other good adventures of the realm stay by reputation only Druids use same bar. Damages are not from her, her party and hunters of her party are rough and tumble.
She is teleport or dimension door capable.

She tends to use web in town. There have been at this point four attempts in Key West proper (police reports). She has a never damaged an attacker police reports show mid level fear spell used(4th level for game purposes) during 1st attack.
The city guard will at times assign a 10 to 15 man squad to make sure she does not get lost in town. Has happened 6 or seven times DC 5

There were three assassination attempts made at the seedy bar during the pick ups. Members of the local thieves guild took some of the rower spots. Unknown to her she asked one question who gets the gold and when?


5. You did not ask this , but if you go down to the docks the ship she is a crew member of the minnow (three hour tour boat) take six people to run. Is fully staffed without her she is away party leader. Ship is not in harbor left 2 or 3 months ago. It can not hold 30 people does not need rowers.

She has never hired anyone, but tradesmen in this town has glass apples made, is disliked by Asher(she calls him Abernathy) the town magic item creator will create for her, but has his apprentice speak with her. Apprentice says he uses her name but she has never asked his.

Oh, yeah she is one rude bitch. Since Key West is a large town you may know or find out the Sioux like her. The Blackfeet tribe has a kill on sight if in their territory. This is a DC 25 for both due to distance.

We use real world geography in are game easiest for us.

Dwarven lands she merely tolerated not allowed beyond visits quarters any longer. Normal for dwarves dc 30 to find out she was once allowed anywhere with a single dwarf guard normally a priest of the no longer highly worshiped lawful good god Mordin. You will also find dc 15 her group in the past has been a part of bringing Asmodes ruler of all hells attention back.
DC 30 the Greek goddess Hera is currently has an interest but to trivial to hire anyone.
DC 20 the Greek god Posiden has a smile for her. She seems wrapped up in bringing ancient cult gods back to the plane.

DC 30. Something went wrong during a a sacrifice on good holy ground an evil god showed up. She thinks it was tiamat
Anything else?


That's pretty ideal to be honest, especially given that you've volunteered extra information along the sort of vein I was going down anyway but didn't actually ask. With that sort of information I'd be perfectly happy making character decisions, as opposed to the utter lack of response that the OP gets at their table.
I'm also all for unreliable or difficult to reach sources of information, but not when it's just the GM lying to be a d***.

[noob]

WELCOME HERP DERP.

Have your investigator say something to the tune of "Well, this job sounds splendid it really does... but I am afraid we will have to take a hard pass. Well, at least I will be taking a hard pass. If the rest of you want to, good luck. If you need someone to replace me, I know of someone who is a brain dead idiot who can be talked into going on a dangerous quest with no specified reward."

You then present an atrociously bad character with int and wis at around 5 and play him as a total idiot and get up to hilarious hijinks that annoy and amuse. "What's that? We need to make sure princess isn't killed by the bad guys? OK." *Kills the princess* "She not killed by bad guys. She killed by me instead. We go collect reward now right?"

So the brain dead person is probably not the friend of the detective seeing the detective sends them on a possibly very dangerous quest.

[Phhase]

Honestly, it sounds like the entire thing would fall apart if you just asked "Why?" once. Which...should not be the case.

Unfortunately, playstyle issues aside, I think there may also be some, ah temperature issues. It hardly sounds like a heat wave in there.