Best Class Composition for Each Party Size

[Sereg]

This is something I wonder about every now and then and was reminded of it again today. So I was wondering what other people's thoughts were.


Assuming no multi-classing and that each character in a party was a different class, what combinations of classes would be most appropriate for parties of different sizes in order to maximize group functionality, cohesiveness and versatility?

I was thinking maybe something like:

1: Druid.

They are versatile tier one casters that can wild shape for more versatility and come with free backup.

2: Add a Wizard.

There is little that cannot be solved with those two classes working together.

3. Add a Beguiler.

A full casting face and sneak will help with those few problems.

4. Add a Warblade.

Time for some melee ability and Warblade are the best initiators by a small margin.

5. Add a Bard.

Bards are typically considered the best fifth member as they are partially casting faces and buffers that specialise in synergy and can fill many roles.

6. Add a Psion.

For the rare cases when psionics is better than magic.

7. Add a Ranger. Switch Warblade to Crusader.

A scouting partial caster and ranged weapon user might come in handy now. Also, tanking and healing become more important than dealing damage at this size

8. Add a Binder.

An unusual and versatile system is opened to you. And your party is large enough to fight off angry clerics.

9 (Like the Fellowship of the Ring). Add a Cleric.

Speaking of them, another tier one class that can provide the large amount of healing required.

10. Add a Marshall.

A lot of people able to benefit from their auras.

11. Bring back a Warblade.

A lot of people needing a strong front line to protect them. Also, a lot of people to benefit from a second White Raven initiator.

12. Add a Rogue.

Another scout who can help with sticky situations.

13. Add a Sorcerer.

Another bringer of arcane might with some exclusive spells and ability to act as a face as well as someone capable of functioning if spell books are confiscated.

14. Add a Dragon Shaman.

More auras useful in large parties and in situations where endurance is important as your abilities cannot be used up.

15 (like in The Hobbit). Add a Favoured Soul.

Another source of divine power and the healing necessary in large groups.


This is just a rough idea. Other thoughts?

[Anthrowhale]

For a solo party, cloistered cleric also has some appeal due to the better stealth. As an example, a Cloistered Cleric Hengeyokai Sparrow with the Sky and Trickery domains has an overwhelming Hide and a good Spot implying they have excellent control over the existence and timing of encounters. A Hengeyokai Sparrow Druid could bypass encounters in the same way at low level, but only if they leave their AC behind, which obviates the advantage of the Druid.

[NigelWalmsley]

The best four person party is "four casters, one of which is a Beguiler and another of which gets healing magic". You don't need a Warblade, Cleric + Druid or Dread Necromancer + Druid or even (past low levels) Gish + Druid is more than sufficient for melee. The boring reality of the game is that you should simply pick classes that are effective, then pick classes that are less effective. Maybe at some point you have enough melee that you want a Bard for DFI over another gish, but it's quite possible that at that point you've already gotten down to Bard on the list of classes organically.

[Sereg]

The power of casters does mean it makes sense to have as large a percent as possible of them, yeah.

[Mike Miller]

I feel like the "best" is somewhat subjective but you started it off correctly with 1 and deviated a bit. You could have said:

1. Druid

2. 2 Druids

3. 3 Druids

Etc.

[Elricaltovilla]

I feel like the "best" is somewhat subjective but you started it off correctly with 1 and deviated a bit. You could have said:

1. Druid

2. 2 Druids

3. 3 Druids

Etc.

Same but clerics. I guess you could throw a favored soul or an archivist or two in there.

[Unavenger]

I'm gonna say go archivist, then sha'ir, then erudite. After that it doesn't matter much 'cause you have nearly every spell or power in the game at your fingertips. Give the aforementioned beguiler a miss in favour of cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, spellcaster if you can get your DM to okay it, frickin' ardent, and honestly just any class that can pick its 9th-level spells and powers for itself (except maybe wilder). Once your party is hilariously huge, you can probably start picking up the fixed-list folks, although honestly you're eventually going to want to pick up a rogue (useful when door is arbitrarily immune to magic) before you even get started on the beguiler.

You might also consider picking up warlock or even truenamer at some point for their bizarre and unique effects (and yes, fine, choose your fight... uh, initiator), but honestly, if you run out of real classes to pick then you're in a pretty massive game (Arc, sha, eru, clr, drd, wiz, sor, ard, FvS, SpS... I don't think I'd want more than 9 people in a party at once).

tl'dr "Best" is always going to be full prepared or retrieved casters and then full spontaneous casters, and there's enough of those to keep you going.

As for which ones you take at which party size, that depends on more than I'm willing to go into, but a solo druid is more likely to survive level 1 than a solo cleric in most optimisation levels, 'cause for the druid, "Solo" is just a metaphor.

EDIT: Previous two posters, OP specified no two of the same class, so no CoDzilla crew I'm afraid.

[NigelWalmsley]

I'm gonna say go archivist, then sha'ir, then erudite. After that it doesn't matter much 'cause you have nearly every spell or power in the game at your fingertips.

Well, no, you have the potential to learn every spell in the game. Baseline, the Archivist gets two Cleric spells per level. That's ... not great. Honestly, until you start plundering the world for Divine Trapsmith scrolls, you're not even clearly better than a Cleric. The Erudite is similar, but you have to actually track down people who know all the spells you want. Picking classes that know good spells baseline is typically going to be better than picking up a bunch of classes that could learn all the spells. At most levels of optimization, I would rather have a Cleric (who gets all the Cleric spells every level for free) or a Wizard (who gets two spells from a list with much better individual spells on it) than an Archivist.


any class that can pick its 9th-level spells and powers for itself (except maybe wilder).

Which includes the fixed list casters. Domains, Runestaves, Knowstones, Arcane Disciple. By the time you hit 9th level spells, any remotely competent caster will have sculpted their list of spells to have whatever they need on it. Is this not common knowledge here? Everyone I've played with IRL understands how to get the 9th level spells they want as a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler.


rogue (useful when door is arbitrarily immune to magic) before you even get started on the beguiler.

Uh, what? The Beguiler has all the same Rogue skills as a Rogue, they just get magic instead of trying and failing to get Sneak Attack to fire consistently.

[Biggus]

I feel like the "best" is somewhat subjective but you started it off correctly with 1 and deviated a bit. You could have said:

1. Druid

2. 2 Druids

3. 3 Druids

Etc.

1) The OP specified everyone is of a different class

2) He also specified versatility as one of the criteria, and Wizards get tons of useful spells that Druids don't

[Falontani]

1) Artificer

2) Druid + Wizard

3) Crusader + Favored Soul + Beguiler

4) Crusader or Warblade + Favored Soul + Beguiler + Warmage or Warlock

5) Swordsage or Duskblade + Healer + Warmage or Warlock + Mystic Ranger or Paladin + Barbarian or Spellthief

6) Incarnate + Adept + Rogue + Fighter + Warlock + Dragonfire Adept

[NigelWalmsley]

2) He also specified versatility as one of the criteria, and Wizards get tons of useful spells that Druids don't

In fairness, versatility is about "what problems can you solve", not "what abilities do you have". It's not super relevant in this case, because Wizard does offer problem-solving Druid doesn't, but e.g. Wizard + Cleric + Dread Necromancer is way ahead of Wizard + Cleric + Truenamer, even though the former gets less new abilities.


3) Crusader + Favored Soul + Beguiler

Why would you ever pick Favored Soul over Cleric or Archivist or Druid? And once you have one of those, you're okay without the Crusader (less so for Archivist), so you'd want a Wizard or something. A lot of these seem like totally serviceable parties, but they don't seem optimized in the way OP seems to be asking for.

[Unavenger]

Well, no, you have the potential to learn every spell in the game. Baseline, the Archivist gets two Cleric spells per level. That's ... not great. Honestly, until you start plundering the world for Divine Trapsmith scrolls, you're not even clearly better than a Cleric. The Erudite is similar, but you have to actually track down people who know all the spells you want. Picking classes that know good spells baseline is typically going to be better than picking up a bunch of classes that could learn all the spells. At most levels of optimization, I would rather have a Cleric (who gets all the Cleric spells every level for free) or a Wizard (who gets two spells from a list with much better individual spells on it) than an Archivist.

I mean, I guess this is all true if no-one else in the world uses magic, you never have any downtime ever, or money doesn't exist, but that's not an ordinary game, now, is it? And you're claiming that you'll be running around with runestaves and knowstones but not scrolls? Truly, an exercise in trying to have your cake and set it on fire.

As for the rogue "Failing to make sneak attack work", I'd rather have half effect on things which are immune than no effect on things which are immune, which is a largely-overlapping subset when it comes to sneak attack and the beguiler's fascinatingly anaemic spell list.

EDIT: To be clear, we're saying dragon magazine yes, but player's handbook no? Or possibly dungeonscape no, if we're feeling charitable about the fact that you mentioned the trapsmith in particular.

[NigelWalmsley]

I mean, I guess this is all true if no-one else in the world uses magic, you never have any downtime ever, or money doesn't exist, but that's not an ordinary game, now, is it? And you're claiming that you'll be running around with runestaves and knowstones but not scrolls? Truly, an exercise in trying to have your cake and set it on fire.

What the hell? How did you manage to get that out of what I said. I made two separate points:

1. The Archivist is worse than the Cleric and Wizard. What you get from being able to dumpster-dive for random nonsense is worse than what you lose from having to pay for every spell when you're buying spells off the Cleric list.
2. Any remotely competent player will be picking 9th level spells even as a nominally fixed-list caster. If you don't know how to get yourself some extra spells as a Dread Necromancer, that's on you, not the class.

I notably did not say that you will get zero spells from scrolls or other people, or that the fixed list casters are more versatile than the Archivist. It's not that the Archivist won't get scrolls, it's that the scrolls you will get won't be worth enough to make up for the fact that you have to waste money on what the Cleric gets for free.


As for the rogue "Failing to make sneak attack work", I'd rather have half effect on things which are immune than no effect on things which are immune, which is a largely-overlapping subset when it comes to sneak attack and the beguiler's fascinatingly anaemic spell list.

Again, if your Beguilers are getting shut down by things that are immune, that is because you are bad at playing Beguilers. You seem to think that because you are bad at playing fixed list casters, they are bad. That is not the case.

[Unavenger]

You seem to think that because you are bad at playing fixed list casters, they are bad. That is not the case.

No, I think that they're bad because your ways of making them good come from assuming access to dragon magazine content, that's why they're bad. How buying scrolls of non-cleric spells is "Dumpster-diving for random nonsense" but if you don't grab up your dragmag items then "That's on you not the class", I have no idea.

Sure, if you don't have access to the thing that archivist is literally designed around you having, then it's bad. Sure, if you have oddly-specific, rare, obscure items which were probably written by paizo, you can make fixed-list casters less bad than they were before. But that's so far removed from how the classes are actually played in reality (I have seen many games where DMs allowed you to buy scrolls which weren't scribed by a cleric. I have seen several where a DM would have no issue with you magic mart'ing trapsmith scrolls at chargen. I have seen zero in which the DM allowed knowstones, and though some surely exist, I doubt there have ever been many where knowstones but not magic mart'ed scrolls were allowed.)

The sha'ir's power comes from being able to prepare a variety of spells at short notice and almost any other at a little more notice; the archivist's power comes from being, at worst, a somewhat unfortunate cleric and at best capable of learning almost any spell in the game, or for those arcane spells out of its grasp at least learning one that does something similar. The beguiler's power comes, largely, from being able to full-cast at all. It's hardly horrible, but if you're counting on knowstones and runestaves to make up your spells known, count me out.

[NigelWalmsley]

No, I think that they're bad because your ways of making them good come from assuming access to dragon magazine content, that's why they're bad. How buying scrolls of non-cleric spells is "Dumpster-diving for random nonsense" but if you don't grab up your dragmag items then "That's on you not the class", I have no idea.

Yes, because Knowstones are literally the only way to expand your list, and there's literally no way for the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler to deal with immunities using only their base spell list.

Anyway, the problem isn't buying scrolls of non-Cleric spells. That's fine, but it's not actually that exciting. Paying for your choice of Cleric spells and Druid spells (or even Paladin and Ranger spells) is totally fine. But being able to get the pick of the Cleric and Druid lists isn't enough power to put you ahead of the Cleric, because you're still spending money on all your spells, and he isn't. To get ahead of the Cleric, you have to start engaging in dubious dumpster-diving to get things like "this is a scroll scribed by a member of an arcane spellcasting class that took Alternate Spell Source", which is a claim that would not fly in the vast majority of games I've seen.


(I have seen many games where DMs allowed you to buy scrolls which weren't scribed by a cleric. I have seen several where a DM would have no issue with you magic mart'ing trapsmith scrolls at chargen. I have seen zero in which the DM allowed knowstones, and though some surely exist, I doubt there have ever been many where knowstones but not magic mart'ed scrolls were allowed.)

If we're talking about "games we've seen", I will point out that I have seen zero games where a Beguiler was made useless by immunity to mind-effecting, and in the vast majority of cases where someone has played an Archivist they have ended up being less versatile than a Cleric would have been.

Also, in case it's not clear, I'm not saying the fixed-list casters are better than Archivist or Erudite. They're not (at mid or high optimization, they do have a great floor). But they are better than Sorcerers, Favored Souls, or Ardents if you have any idea how to play them.


at worst, a somewhat unfortunate cleric and at best capable of learning almost any spell in the game

So normally it's a bad Cleric and it's best-case is the same as every caster better than the Healer? Yeah, great pitch there. I'm super convinced the class is worth my time now. At the level of optimization where the Archivist has the resources to throw away on enough scrolls to reach parity with the Cleric, a Warmage would lap them by going Rainbow Servant.

[Unavenger]

Okay, fine. How are you expanding your spell list without burning feats, using one-at-a-time staves, or diving into dragon magazines?

Second, it's not just that archivist can get alternative source spells if your DM's okay with that. It's that any cleric can scribe their domain spells. Any divine bard can scribe their spells. Any adept can scribe theirs. Any shugenja can scribe theirs. Behold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445204-Lowest-level-versions-of-spells) a list which has the vast majority of spells I care about on it. No dragmag, no buying 5 different runestaves, no feats, just pure spells. You can get access to a domain? That's so cute, I can get access to every spell that's part of any domain. I can get anything that's ever made it onto the druid, paladin, ranger or bard list, or any of the shugenja lists.

Just for fun, what spells can you get access to innately that I can't? Rouse, the spell that's mostly famous for doing literally nothing; whelm, a spell so sharply limited in utility that only a class completely devoid of any other damaging spells would consider it worthwhile; blinding color surge, which is a genuinely passable spell that I have little bad to say about except that I would usually rather use invisibility; touch of idiocy which is apparently named for anyone who would get close enough to use it unironically; vertigo which... look, I get grease a level lower and it's an area spell; whelming blast which is an area-effect version of its failure of a little cousin; arcane sight which is a cantrip on drugs; solid fog, which... okay yeah you win this one; mass whelm which is actually occasionally worth casting but still relatively mediocre; overwhelm which is technically a SoL to any creature with so much as a scratch on them but shares the problems of its weaker cousins (allows a save, damage is subject to double-healing, a lot is immune) and slaps on a touch range to them; greater arcane sight which is a cantrip on more drugs; mass invisibility which I can emulate with metamagic or this strange invention called "More than one second-level slot"; scintillating pattern which is very nice to scroll at low levels if you absolutely positively gotta disable someone mid-level, but is too unreliable once its only effect is confusion; and mass hold monster which should not by any means be a ninth-level spell.

By contrast, a vast number of your key spells come online for me before they do for you. I would suggest - out of a second level slot - that this not only indicates that your claims are all ridiculous, but that anything you can do apart from increasingly-easily-resisted amounts of nonlethal damage, I can do at least as well, if not better. Get in the box with the warmage, you're done.

[Falontani]

Why would you ever pick Favored Soul over Cleric or Archivist or Druid? And once you have one of those, you're okay without the Crusader (less so for Archivist), so you'd want a Wizard or something. A lot of these seem like totally serviceable parties, but they don't seem optimized in the way OP seems to be asking for.



Assuming no multi-classing and that each character in a party was a different class, what combinations of classes would be most appropriate for parties of different sizes in order to maximize group functionality, cohesiveness and versatility?


How did cohesiveness and versatility turn into optimization? My list is trying to make each party member contribute something different than the other players. Having the more powerful classes alongside the weaker classes can very quickly disrupt cohesiveness in favor of functionality or versatility. Adding favored soul rather than cleric, archivist, or even druid helps define the role that is to be accomplished. Cleric, archivist, and druid are able to accomplish too much at once and leave the rest of the party feeling unneeded.

For this thought experiment I'm also acting as if the expected cr is stable throughout each party composition.

[NigelWalmsley]

Okay, fine. How are you expanding your spell list without burning feats, using one-at-a-time staves, or diving into dragon magazines?

There was a thread last week (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604698-Beguilers-Eclectic-Learning) that explained how you do that in detail. The rest of your post seems to be missing the point. I never said the Beguiler was better than the Archivist. I said the Cleric was in most cases, and none of your post really refutes that. I understand how you think Archivist optimization works, but I have never seen it work in practice to a degree that overcomes the class's basic weakness of being a Cleric who has to set a good chunk of their WBL on fire for spells. Whereas the claims you've made about Beguilers are things that are avoided fairly trivially by anyone who understands the mechanics of how the class works by just taking options that are good.

[Buufreak]

Sha'ir

Thank you. So many people gloss over this great class, and it bothers me to see power or contribution discussions that ignore it.


just all of it

Can't hop into a single thread without negging, can ya?

[Sereg]

How did cohesiveness and versatility turn into optimization? My list is trying to make each party member contribute something different than the other players. Having the more powerful classes alongside the weaker classes can very quickly disrupt cohesiveness in favor of functionality or versatility. Adding favored soul rather than cleric, archivist, or even druid helps define the role that is to be accomplished. Cleric, archivist, and druid are able to accomplish too much at once and leave the rest of the party feeling unneeded.

For this thought experiment I'm also acting as if the expected cr is stable throughout each party composition.

I do consider this a valid approach.

[Unavenger]

There was a thread last week (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604698-Beguilers-Eclectic-Learning) that explained how you do that in detail. The rest of your post seems to be missing the point. I never said the Beguiler was better than the Archivist. I said the Cleric was in most cases, and none of your post really refutes that. I understand how you think Archivist optimization works, but I have never seen it work in practice to a degree that overcomes the class's basic weakness of being a Cleric who has to set a good chunk of their WBL on fire for spells. Whereas the claims you've made about Beguilers are things that are avoided fairly trivially by anyone who understands the mechanics of how the class works by just taking options that are good.

You mentioned runestaves (ha!) and knowstones (haaaaaa!) in this thread already, and all the other super-powerful ways you (read: other posters) have seem to be being Troacct'ed in the face with the actual rules. I'm not impressed.

As for having to spend money on scrolls, of course you do. But they're far, far cheaper than runestaves - or feats.

And you still haven't actually explained how you think beguiler optimisation works. You're not refuting anything I'm saying, you're just ignoring it until the facts - that knowstones are dragmag content, runestaves are mediocre, and burning a feat to get a domain is a desperation play - are lost in your grandstanding. If I "Don't know how to play a beguiler", then go on. Educate me. But don't just say "Knowstones and runestaves and arcane disciple!" like they're going to drag you out of the pit of mind-affecting.

(Also, suppose I want 2 non-cleric spells of each level, except that I'm prepared to tough out being a cleric only less so for the first level of my life. I'm using 8.3% of my WBL 2, 13% of my WBL 3, 11% of my WBL 5, 13% of my WBL 7, 13% of my WBL 9, 12% of my WBL 11, 11% of my WBL 13, 9% of my WBL 15, and 7% of my WBL 17.

To do the same trick with knowstones would require 355% of your WBL 2, 407% of your WBL 3, 322% of your WBL 5... look, you're not in the position to criticise how much money I'm spending to learn spells!)

[Anthrowhale]

Note that Knowstones and Runestaves only work with on-list spells. A Drake Helm (Eberron explorer's guide) plausibly provides off-list access although it's more expensive than Knowstones.

Arcane Disciple is also fine if you want to pick up access to some phb spells, but the MAD that it creates and the pre-chosen nature of the list makes it only marginally better than extra spell in most cases.

The best way to get off-list access that I know of is by using the Channel Charge feat (Lost Empires of Faerun) and buying wands or staves with a single charge on the cheap. You need a golfbag/Quiver of Ehlonna to keep everything, and Quickdraw would be handy for combat application.

[Unavenger]

Note that Knowstones and Runestaves only work with on-list spells.

For all that I'm against the beguiler apologists, I do agree with the line that you can UMD knowstones and runestaves because spells are a class feature, so you only need to be able to make a DC 21 check reliably (because you only need to emulate having the spell on your list, not being able to cast it yet).