New assassin character is unbalancing my game

[tchntm43]

When we started this campaign, we had a Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, and Bard. At some point, we had another player join and he created a Thief. This was fine. He left the game for an extended time but indicated he wanted to play again. At this time, the party had leveled up to 4. The thief chose to turn his Thief into an Assassin.

Basically, he's taken out all the big monsters by himself. He usually goes first and usually succeeds in his stealth checks. So he gets surprise, which means that, with his short sword, he's stacking up pretty much all the assassin benefits in his first attack. It comes out to 6d6 + DEX modifier damage, since he's adding his sneak attack damage and getting a critical hit. Even when he doesn't get to use stealth, he often goes first for initiative and that means he gets advantage and therefore he gets to apply the sneak attack damage. Additionally, he wields a second shortsword in case he hasn't killed the opponent in the first hit.

I want to make sure I'm interpreting things correctly. I know the second shortsword doesn't get sneak attack (You can only apply it to a single attack in the round), but it does still go before the enemy has taken a turn, so it has advantage. Is the monster still considered surprised for the second weapon, or does the first hit eliminate the surprise? Getting 8d6+DEX damage the first round of most battles seems a bit nuts for level 4, especially since it doesn't use resources that require rest to get back.

Anyway, he's pretty much one-shot an ogre, a black dragon wyrmling, and the level 5 wizard that was the "boss" of the adventure. I can make the monsters stronger next time, however the issue with that is that if the monsters get to take turns, they can hurt the party more than I want them to.

[Sparky McDibben]

There's a few things you can do here.

I only let the first attack auto-crit, not the second. Remember the second attack uses a bonus action, so good luck disengaging if you miss.

Best options are to use misdirection, or give your villains feats and/or magic items.

For misdirection, use illusions to give the target cover, or make actual boss invisible and one of its minions looks like the boss. Don't overdo these, or use them when they wouldn't make sense, but they can be quite effective.

For feats, Alert (can't be surprised), Sentinel (good luck disengaging), or War Caster can all be potent additions.

As far as magic, maybe the evil priest has a permanent death ward granted by their deity. Or the rogue did a favor for a wizard once and has a contingency spell cast. Reskin the Aberrant Dragonmark from Eberron for more options.

And if all else fails, just make your BBEG a half-orc.

[Yakk]

From level 1 to 5 character power grows really quickly.

A CR 2 creature like an ogre starting being instant-gibbed isn't surprising.

At 5, the fighter and ranger get an extra attack (doubling their damage), thd wizard gets fireball (8d6 aoe).

A PC built monster is going to drop ridiculously fast unless you build them defensively, and a 5th level PC is a trivial fight for a 4th level party of 5.

You are talking about CR 2 creatures against an oversized level 4 party.


Consider starting fights not at melee range. Consider buasing towards defensive CR to make fights last longer.

And yes, by RAW, all attacks crit if the assassin has surprise.

Rogues deal solid at-will damage, especially in unoptimized groups. But a level 5 gloomstalker can HM+3 attacks for 3d8+3d6+39 or 63. A level 5 crossbow gloomstalker hits 4d8+52, or 70. A level 5 GWM fighter can action surge for 8d6+52, or 90.

Your partys effective level is 5 due to numbers, and it is blending CR 2 challenges.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Use distance, cover and multiple enemies also.

This Rogue should be good at this though. Them and smiting Paladins shine around those levels.

[zinycor]

Your big monster should be accompanied by minions, assasin's only deal damage to a single target per turn.

Also, there are plenty of monster with resistance and immunities to slashing damage.

[stoutstien]

When we started this campaign, we had a Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, and Bard. At some point, we had another player join and he created a Thief. This was fine. He left the game for an extended time but indicated he wanted to play again. At this time, the party had leveled up to 4. The thief chose to turn his Thief into an Assassin.

Basically, he's taken out all the big monsters by himself. He usually goes first and usually succeeds in his stealth checks. So he gets surprise, which means that, with his short sword, he's stacking up pretty much all the assassin benefits in his first attack. It comes out to 6d6 + DEX modifier damage, since he's adding his sneak attack damage and getting a critical hit. Even when he doesn't get to use stealth, he often goes first for initiative and that means he gets advantage and therefore he gets to apply the sneak attack damage. Additionally, he wields a second shortsword in case he hasn't killed the opponent in the first hit.

I want to make sure I'm interpreting things correctly. I know the second shortsword doesn't get sneak attack (You can only apply it to a single attack in the round), but it does still go before the enemy has taken a turn, so it has advantage. Is the monster still considered surprised for the second weapon, or does the first hit eliminate the surprise? Getting 8d6+DEX damage the first round of most battles seems a bit nuts for level 4, especially since it doesn't use resources that require rest to get back.

Anyway, he's pretty much one-shot an ogre, a black dragon wyrmling, and the level 5 wizard that was the "boss" of the adventure. I can make the monsters stronger next time, however the issue with that is that if the monsters get to take turns, they can hurt the party more than I want them to.

Surprise is not necessarily automatic just because they pass as a stealth check. there's also the has something within the game logic that they have the ability to be unseen/unheard by the potential Target to begin with.
Any wizard worth his salt probably going to have a few unseen barriers between him and any potential enemy like a few alarm spells or such. Even string and bells or bones can add some element of choice.
Then you have the problem with the rest of the party not being as stealthy so they may potentially be a little further ahead of the party to guarantee to get surprise. Now we're looking at huge risk reward behavior. It's awesome when they do sneak up on somebody and almost one shot it but if they fail or there's another Target they did not see before they jumped out it could end very badly for the rogue.

An example: the party is trying to retrieve the stolen chalice from an orc den. The assassin wants to eliminate some of the patrols so the rest of the party can approach wirh less risk. Now the orcs have darkvision but aren't necessarily that aware of their surroundings enter frequently arguing with each other but there's also some worgs about that the assassins going to want to avoid at all cost because of their ability to locate prey by smell and hearing as much as eyesight.

whatever you do don't just shut down the assassin because it's really good at what is designed to do. Every once in awhile it's going to completely eliminate a potential hard encounter. That's fine. They get to feel validated for being a super sneaky stabber. just include multiple elements so there's not just a giant bag of hit points to stab all the time.

[Mr Adventurer]

I may not understand the Stealth rules properly, but: what is the Assassin hiding in when he is standing next to the target, making melee attacks?

[sophontteks]

A level 5 wizard is just too weak to be a boss to a level 4 party. Monsters are also built very differently then PCs they are made to be much tougher, able to handle big hits that would kill PCs. There are also legendary actions and legendary resistances that exist to counter PCs.

A level 5 wizard is a trivial fight for the party, and its espesially strange that this wizard is being caught surprised by the party as well. Stronger opponents and better tactics would go far.

5e stealth works differently then previous editions. AFAIK An assassin can't just roll stealth and walk up to a creature in plain sight. Different feats and racial abilities change what they can use to hide, but generally if they are in plain sight, they are not hiding, no matter what they roll. The best weapon for an assassin attacking from stealth is a ranged weapon as it allows them to attack from the shadows. It's really hard to walk up to something with a shortsword unseen.

[stoutstien]

Another change that I suggest for tables who enjoy mystic or high fantasy or generally just dislike the finickyness of stealth is to replace the automatic crit with just maximum sneak attack damage the first turn. This way it is not actually required for them to be hidden to benefit from assassinate. Overall scales better with rogue levels and soften some multi-class options. I'm looking at you gloom stalker.

[Chaos Jackal]

Bottom line is, rolling stealth doesn't mean you get to surprise someone. If there's a way to go behind the target or drop on it from above or something, then yeah, sure. But rolling stealth while you approach a doorway, then running in and crossing the room is most likely not gonna give you any surprise. All the stealth rolls in the world don't matter if there's no place to hide.

If he backstabs things, that's exactly what he should be doing. But I very much doubt that entering the wizard's lair, or the last chamber of the troll's cave, is going to give him such an option.

And of course, minions. "Boss fights" in the traditional sense tend to get obliterated anyway due to action economy. But throw in a couple mooks and suddenly there's more eyes and ears for perception, more bodies for intercepting and more arms to make regular and opportunity attacks

[Lunali]

Even if the assassin can hide and win initiative, they won't be able to get mechanical surprise unless the rest of the party also succeeds (or is far enough away to not be noticed). To get sneak attack as well, they'll need to make a ranged attack, find a way to be unseen in melee range, or wait for their allies to move up.

[bid]

You'd have to make the closest hiding spot 60' away, he'd need to BA-dash to reach his target. On his next turn, he can still attack and BA-dash out before the enemy can react. Making it hard to hide isn't an easy fix.

Your best bet is patrols and raising alarms. If there's 3 weak enemies he can only kill one, leaving a runner to warn the others and negate any future ambush.

[Lunali]

You'd have to make the closest hiding spot 60' away, he'd need to BA-dash to reach his target. On his next turn, he can still attack and BA-dash out before the enemy can react. Making it hard to hide isn't an easy fix.

Your best bet is patrols and raising alarms. If there's 3 weak enemies he can only kill one, leaving a runner to warn the others and negate any future ambush.

Once he leaves cover he's no longer hidden and doesn't get advantage on the attack, forcing him to rely on other methods to get sneak attack.

[stoutstien]

Once he leaves cover he's no longer hidden and doesn't get advantage on the attack, forcing him to rely on other methods to get sneak attack.

Assassin is the exception to the general rule here. They net Advantage as long as they go first. The auto crit is in question still and vary from DM to DM but the advantage is practically guaranteed.

[DeTess]

A level 5 wizard is just too weak to be a boss to a level 4 party. Monsters are also built very differently then PCs they are made to be much tougher, able to handle big hits that would kill PCs. There are also legendary actions and legendary resistances that exist to counter PCs.

A level 5 wizard is a trivial fight for the party, and its espesially strange that this wizard is being caught surprised by the party as well. Stronger opponents and better tactics would go far.


To quickly add to this the conjurer from volo's is a CR 6 encounter and functionally a 9th level wizard. This is only a 'hard' encounter for a party of 5 level 4's.

[Kazuel]

How’s he getting 6D6+dex?

[Sigreid]

So the alarm spell is a thing can be cast as a ritual, and will 100% stop surprise even if the wizard doesn't know exactly where the threat is coming from.

Likewise, simply having too many opponents around for the assassin to make a clean in and out can work.

Unless the assassin is ranging way ahead of the party, there's plenty of chance for the rest of the party to screw it up.

Admant armor popping up once in a while is a good counter.

Of course you should't counter him all the time. Ideally just enough that he assumes it's a risk.

[Boci]

How’s he getting 6D6+dex?

1d6 sword sword + 2d6 sneak attack, double for critting if they surprise an enemy.

[Nidgit]

Surprise is a single round, not a state. If the Assassin is rolling Stealth after he rolls Initiative, he's not getting a surprise round crit because the enemy already knows he's there. Successfully Hiding would only grant advantage for Sneak Attacks.

Essentially, if the enemy sees them as combat starts, the Assassin can't score his auto-crit because the enemy knows they're under attack, even if they can't see the specific attacker. It's similar to being caught flat-footed in previous editions.

As far as particular measures to take against this, an Assassin can only take out 1 enemy even if they do crit. Make some encounters full of CR 1 or 1/2 monsters and see the Assassin drop off in skill after the first round of combat.

[LudicSavant]

When we started this campaign, we had a Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, and Bard. At some point, we had another player join and he created a Thief. This was fine. He left the game for an extended time but indicated he wanted to play again. At this time, the party had leveled up to 4. The thief chose to turn his Thief into an Assassin.

Basically, he's taken out all the big monsters by himself. He usually goes first and usually succeeds in his stealth checks. So he gets surprise, which means that, with his short sword, he's stacking up pretty much all the assassin benefits in his first attack. It comes out to 6d6 + DEX modifier damage, since he's adding his sneak attack damage and getting a critical hit. Even when he doesn't get to use stealth, he often goes first for initiative and that means he gets advantage and therefore he gets to apply the sneak attack damage. Additionally, he wields a second shortsword in case he hasn't killed the opponent in the first hit.

I want to make sure I'm interpreting things correctly. I know the second shortsword doesn't get sneak attack (You can only apply it to a single attack in the round), but it does still go before the enemy has taken a turn, so it has advantage. Is the monster still considered surprised for the second weapon, or does the first hit eliminate the surprise? Getting 8d6+DEX damage the first round of most battles seems a bit nuts for level 4, especially since it doesn't use resources that require rest to get back.

Anyway, he's pretty much one-shot an ogre, a black dragon wyrmling, and the level 5 wizard that was the "boss" of the adventure. I can make the monsters stronger next time, however the issue with that is that if the monsters get to take turns, they can hurt the party more than I want them to.

This sounds like a case of you setting the difficulty of enemies really low. The damage you've listed isn't that high as far as alpha strike setups at level 4 go, and a level 5 Wizard isn't much of a boss for a level 4 party. Don't be afraid to beef up the challenges a bit.

[Tanarii]

5 level 4 characters have a 2500 XP budget for a Deadly encounter, which is where you probably want to set a 'boss' encounter. A NPC with 5th level wizard casting is probably CR 2-3, call it CR 3 because of Fireball. If you make it 3-6 enemies, that leaves 1100 XP in the budget, which is enough for 5 CR 1 allies (and still falls short of deadly by 100 XP).

Also you're probably making Surprise too easy. Unless the assassin wants to go with Splitting Up the Party (see PHB sidebar) into a seperate group for combat, then the entire party has to beat each enemies Passive Perception to surprise that enemy.

If he does want to go with Splitting Up the Party, separation distance for it to count as a seperate party is at your discretion since it's not defined. But you probably want to go with at least 60ft. And you'll have to decide when the main party enters combat (ie gets to roll initiative). Definitely shouldn't be on the first round of combat though, in which the enemies are surprised.

[MeeposFire]

Also I have a hunch you are probably not running surprise correctly. Remember that surprise is essentially a status effect. When the assassin is hidden and decides to attack a target initiative is rolled at that point BEFORE the assassin does anything. In order for the assassin to get his special benefit he has to act before the target on that first round. IF the assassin gets a 12 on his initiative roll and the target has a 13 the target does first and his first turn will be doing nothing because being surprised means you cannot act but after he completes his turn and you move on to the assassin he is no longer surprised and can use things like reactions and more importantly the assassin no longer gets an auto crit on him.

That is why assassins are one of the only times where I would tell somebody that boosting initiative is actually worth worrying about because to them it is really important.

If you run the game as if there was an actual surprise round (as in an extra special round at the start of combat) then it tends to buff the assassin.

[Boci]

If you run the game as if there was an actual surprise round (as in an extra special round at the start of combat) then it tends to buff the assassin.

Yes, but this is probably a good thing. Surprise is hardly guranteed, and giving an assassin a 33% chance to not be able to use a major class feature even when they're lucky/put the work in to actually have a surprised opponent because they rolled low on initiative is probably not the best thing. As others have pointed out, its likely not the sole reason the assassin is unbalancing the game.

Its also really wierd to fluff that an surprised enemy isn't surprised becaise they rolled high on initiative, even though they had no idea the assassin was there and don't even know combat has started yet.

But I may be biased. I like rogues and assassins.

[MeeposFire]

Yes, but this is probably a good thing. Surprise is hardly guranteed, and giving an assassin a 33% chance to not be able to use a major class feature even when they're lucky/put the work in to actually have a surprised opponent because they rolled low on initiative is probably not the best thing. As others have pointed out, its likely not the sole reason the assassin is unbalancing the game.

Its also really wierd to fluff that an surprised enemy isn't surprised becaise they rolled high on initiative, even though they had no idea the assassin was there and don't even know combat has started yet.

But I may be biased. I like rogues and assassins.

To me the fluff is just fine. There have been many times where I have reacted to somebody without me having seen or heard them (or I should say that I consciously did not see or hear). Clearly the target that goes first on initiative is in a similar situation where he realizes that something is happening but has not really seen or heard exactly what is is so the target does not know really what is happening. The target is unable to do anything major but this is just enough to spoil the assassin's strike from the perfect precision needed for his deadly attack.

Also the target was surprised they are just no longer surprised by the time the assassin actually gets around to stabbing the target. The whole way they balanced the ability is due to how difficult it is to get to use it successfully. It is not meant to be easy or super common compare it to sneak attack in general which is designed to be used almost every round. Assassinate was designed to be much more dangerous but much more difficult to pull off and if you make it too easy then it really changes things.

[Boci]

To me the fluff is just fine. There have been many times where I have reacted to somebody without me having seen or heard them (or I should say that I consciously did not see or hear). Clearly the target that goes first on initiative is in a similar situation where he realizes that something is happening but has not really seen or heard exactly what is is so the target does not know really what is happening. The target is unable to do anything major but this is just enough to spoil the assassin's strike from the perfect precision needed for his deadly attack.

I don't feel that work though, because the assassin isn't detected. And if they decide to sneak off rather than press the attack, the target will never know they were even in a combat situation. Sure, maybe they had a vague uneasy feeling, but I would argue that should not be enough to not be surprised if they have no idea of direction or nature of what is giving them that feeling.


Also the target was surprised they are just no longer surprised by the time the assassin actually gets around to stabbing the target. The whole way they balanced the ability is due to how difficult it is to get to use it successfully. It is not meant to be easy or super common compare it to sneak attack in general which is designed to be used almost every round.

But that's already handled by needing surprise. Maybe its different at your table, but I found less than half the combat had surprise when I've played. And at least for the surprise requirement, the player and the party has some control over it, they can try out thing and be inventive. They have initative in this, ironically they have far less initative when it comes to rolling initative, as its mostly just a d20 roll. If the game is not using feats, as the majority of games apparantly do, then there's very little an assassin's player can do.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't feel that work though, because the assassin isn't detected. And if they decide to sneak off rather than press the attack, the target will never know they were even in a combat situation. Sure, maybe they had a vague uneasy feeling, but I would argue that should not be enough to not be surprised if they have no idea of direction or nature of what is giving them that feeling.
That's why initiative is rolled at the declaration of the rogues attack.

A few things to remember about combat is that despite the mechanics making it turn based the fluff is that it happens in a simultaneous 6 second period per round.

The Rogue can successfully hide from his target, declare his attack, roll initiative and determine surprise but if he rolls lower than a target it's really as simple as something in your preparation to attack has tipped them off that they're in danger even if they can't pin a source. They are alert now.

The fluff only breaks if you allow the Rogue to "retcon" their attack if they fail to win initiative. Initiative shouldn't be rolled in a case where combat isn't a certainty. If the Rogue is hidden and says "I shoot the Orc" then you absolutely should not allow him to rescind that shot because the Orc rolled high

EDIT: To be a little more clear on exactly why the Rogue not attacking after they learn they didn't win initiative is bad - it's metagaming, plain and simple. Initiative isn't something your character can see until people start acting and even then it's not something they see in the same turn based way we resolve it. Your Rogue does not know they weren't first in initiative and their action should not change because of this meta knowledge.

[Marcloure]

> 8d6+DEX damage on the first round at 4th level
> Wizards deal 8d6 in a giant area at distance at 5th level

That damage is in accord to 5e baseline. You'll have to up your monsters, use more of them, or, most probably, both. The assassin can down only one of them.

[Keravath]

There are a couple of things I think you may need to correct.

1) Surprise is very infrequent. It doesn't occur every combat and usually doesn't happen in most combats. It only happens if the defending group is completely unaware of all members of the attacking group (not just the rogue). If the defenders are alerted or on their guard then you won't have surprise.

"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."

Any character or monster that doesn't notice A threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. It doesn't say a specific threat, it is ANY threat. So if you have a party of adventurers who all hide successfully and a defender sees none of them, then that defender is surprised. However, if the defender noticed even ONE attacker then they are not surprised. They know combat is about to happen and they are now paying attention and alert.

So even if the rogue has something to hide behind AND is successful in their hide check then they STILL won't have surprise unless the defender failed to notice ANYONE.

2) In general, you can't hide or use stealth if the opponent could see you. This generally means that you can't hide within melee range of a target and moving to attack in melee means that you aren't hidden or stealthed.

"You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position." PHB 177

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen." PHB 177

As a result, you usually can't hide within melee range since there is nothing to hide behind and if you are hidden behind somone (halfling) or a tree nearby and move in to attack in melee, you will be seen and are not hidden any more.

Obtaining surprise is NOT easy.

3) Surprise applies only to a creatures first round of combat. They don't get a turn and can't take reactions until after their turn. For an assassin, every hit against a surprised target is a critical hit. However, in the first round of combat, even if they don't have surprise, they will have advantage against targets that have not yet had a turn. This does let them use sneak attack (adding +2d6 sneak damage) if they hit without having an ally adjacent.

As mentioned, surprise is typically very hard to achieve.

Finally, rogues do have good damage in tier 1 at levels 3 and 4. However, at level 5, most of the martial classes get extra attack and will have two weapon attacks in a round. This typically more than evens things out compared to a rogue. Also, characters with feats like Polearm Master and Crossbow expert which grant bonus action attacks, or other characters with dual wielding are pretty close to the rogue in damage even in tier 1.

I think in your case, you are giving the assassin the benefits of surprise far more often than is the case in many campaigns which is causing them to do fairly exceptional damage in the first round more often than is usually the case.

[Boci]

EDIT: To be a little more clear on exactly why the Rogue not attacking after they learn they didn't win initiative is bad - it's metagaming, plain and simple. Initiative isn't something your character can see until people start acting and even then it's not something they see in the same turn based way we resolve it. Your Rogue does not know they weren't first in initiative and their action should not change because of this meta knowledge.

I disagree. The chance to not be surprised is perception vs. stealth. If rolling high on initative is enough to make the guards go "I got a bad feeling about this" and no longer be surprised (and thereby give the rogue another chance to miss out on assassinate) then that should also have a visual indicator they can notice and respond to, which is therefor not metagaming. If there's no time for visual indicators for the rogue to respond to, then "I've got a bad feeling about this" shouldn't be enough to protect them from assassinate.

In combat you decide what to do when your turn in the initative comes. If something happens before hand, you can change your action in response, D&D doesn't have you declare your actions in advance. If a wizard was going to cast a spell but the higher init enemy teleports away, the mage isn't locked in to casting a spell, or would you insist they do at your table?

[Keravath]

I disagree. The chance to not be surprised is perception vs. stealth. If rolling high on initative is enough to make the guards go "I got a bad feeling about this" and no longer be surprised (and thereby give the rogue another chance to miss out on assassinate) then that should also have a visual indicator they can notice and respond to, which is therefor not metagaming. If there's no time for visual indicators for the rogue to respond to, then "I've got a bad feeling about this" shouldn't be enough to protect them from assassinate.

In combat you decide what to do when your turn in the initative comes. If something happens before hand, you can change your action in response, D&D doesn't have you declare your actions in advance. If a wizard was going to cast a spell but the higher init enemy teleports away, the mage isn't locked in to casting a spell, or would you insist they do at your table?

You are partially correct. Determining whether a target MAY be surprised is usually stealth vs passive perception.

However, initiative is then rolled and IF the assassin takes their turn BEFORE the surprised target then they have the benefits of the assassinate ability. Otherwise they do not.

You are also correct that the assassin may choose what to do when their initiative arrives.

So here is a possible narrative for what occurs ..
- the assassin is hidden and passes the stealth vs perception check
- the DM determines that combat has started so initiative is rolled
- the defender rolls higher than the assassin. The assassin has made a noise, perhaps the creaking of the bowstring or drawing of a weapon, or has done something else so that the target is alert but not aware of a specific threat. The defender was surprised so they take no action on their turn.
- the assassin gets their initiative. They do not get assassinate because they come after the defender who is now alert to something going on. The assassin may choose to attack anyway or could choose to try and withdraw. Surprise is lost for this combat. If the assassin can move away stealthily without being seen then combat will end at some point where the assassin is incapable of executing an attack. The assassin could try to sneak back and try again if they want, however the defender is now suspicious and it is up to the DM to decide how long this would last.

The bottom line is that RAW, the assassin needs to BOTH surprise the target and they need to have a higher initiative in order to use the Assassinate ability.

[Boci]

The bottom line is that RAW, the assassin needs to BOTH surprise the target and they need to have a higher initiative in order to use the Assassinate ability.

I don't dispite the RAW, I just say its a valid, and in fact good, houserule to waiver the higher initative requirement. The set up requirements are still there with needing surprise, but there's not another chance to fail that the assassin can do very little about, and it avoid these wonky RAW situations where the assassin loses initative, chooses not to attack, and then its the guards turn, who may now act, but has percieved no threat. It raises a lot of question that are going to be clunky to handle, mostly notable how long until the assassin can try to get the surprise again. An minute, an hour? A day? Whilst a houserule its much cleaner to letthe assassin get their assassinate off if the target was surprised.

And again, I'd argue that from a fluff standpoint, a vague sense of bad feeling with no concrete threat percieved or even direction known should not be enough to prevent assassinate. I'm sure plenty of soliders had a bad feeling walking through warzones but where still surprised when the ambush sprung.

[DeTess]

And again, I'd argue that from a fluff standpoint, a vague sense of bad feeling with no concrete threat percieved or even direction known should not be enough to prevent assassinate. I'm sure plenty of soliders had a bad feeling walking through warzones but where still surprised when the ambush sprung.

It can be more than just a vague feeling though. The guard could have heard the creak of a bowstring being drawn, or the scraping of metal on leather of a weapon being readied, or anything like that. They might not be able to pinpoint it, but there's enough that they have reason to believe violence is imminent.

[Boci]

It can be more than just a vague feeling though. The guard could have heard the creak of a bowstring being drawn, or the scraping of metal on leather of a weapon being readied, or anything like that. They might not be able to pinpoint it, but there's enough that they have reason to believe violence is imminent.

Do they though? They haven't passed a perception check, so they shouldn't know anything the enemy that is hidden from them. A bowstring creaking reveals that is it probably a humanoid and not say a tiger, which is wierd information to recieve for failing to beast the stealth check. For me, "You hear the creak of a bowstring" sounds more like part of the description of passing a perception check.

This is also highly dependant on the assassin's weapon and situation. What if they don't have a bowstring to creak or their weapon is already drawn? What if they got silenced as part of their pret to set up the surprise?

[opaopajr]

Basically unsupported, under-CR, solo is weak and unsupported. :smallcool:

Your mobs need either numbers or environmental context, often both!, to buffer them against PCs. Also, you might need tougher monsters as you are now ready to cross into Tier 2 play. Given the PC levels and party size, you need more, tougher, and in harder to ignore locations monsters. :smallsmile:

[Yakk]

RAW never says when surprise ends. Many people assume it ends when you get your turn when surprised, but not one word says that in the rules.

[Tanarii]

RAW never says when surprise ends. Many people assume it ends when you get your turn when surprised, but not one word says that in the rules.
You're assuming surprise is a condition with duration. As opposed to an instantaneous determination that has a specific effect at a later point of mechanical resolution.

[sophontteks]

Here's a link to a good read on surprise. It also covered a variant rule regarding surprise and initiative.

http://dmsworkshop.com/2018/07/13/things-you-didnt-know-about-dd-5e-the-surprise-round/

[Man_Over_Game]

This sounds like a case of you setting the difficulty of enemies really low. The damage you've listed isn't that high as far as alpha strike setups at level 4 go, and a level 5 Wizard isn't much of a boss for a level 4 party. Don't be afraid to beef up the challenges a bit.

To add on this, a level 4 party of 5 should be expected to output about 15-18 damage per round EACH.

That's ~85 damage per round. If you want a fight to last about 3 rounds, you'll need about 255 HP amongst the badguy team, whether that's with a dozen mooks or a couple body guards or just a really powerful Wizard shield.

[Yakk]

You're assuming surprise is a condition with duration. As opposed to an instantaneous determination that has a specific effect at a later point of mechanical resolution.
Assassin talks about auto crit when attacking surprised foes, but does not say if this applies only when they win initiative, for the first round, or for the entire combat. Heck, maybe if you ever surprised someone you always get a crit on every attack, even 10 years later.

"Any hit the Assassin scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.'"

A surprised creature - what is that? The rules are unclear.

It being the entire first round, or the first round before initiative, are both reasonable. So is "before it gets an action when it was surprised", which opens up a possibility of 2 turns of auto crit. So is surprise ending when the creature takes damage.

It is completely undefined.

[sophontteks]

Assassin talks about auto crit when attacking surprised foes, but does not say if this applies only when they win initiative, for the first round, or for the entire combat. Heck, maybe if you ever surprised someone you always get a crit on every attack, even 10 years later.

"Any hit the Assassin scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.'"

A surprised creature - what is that? The rules are unclear.

It being the entire first round, or the first round before initiative, are both reasonable. So is "before it gets an action when it was surprised", which opens up a possibility of 2 turns of auto crit. So is surprise ending when the creature takes damage.

It is completely undefined.
It's defined in the combat section.

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

So, your surprised at the start of combat until your turn ends.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's defined in the combat section.

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

So, your surprised at the start of combat until your turn ends.

To add on this:

"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

So creatures are individually determined whether or not they're Surprised, and it ends separately for each of them (at the end of their first turns).

[JackPhoenix]

I disagree. The chance to not be surprised is perception vs. stealth. If rolling high on initative is enough to make the guards go "I got a bad feeling about this" and no longer be surprised (and thereby give the rogue another chance to miss out on assassinate) then that should also have a visual indicator they can notice and respond to, which is therefor not metagaming. If there's no time for visual indicators for the rogue to respond to, then "I've got a bad feeling about this" shouldn't be enough to protect them from assassinate.

There's no "I've got a bad feeling about this". The surprised creature still can't act on their turn even if they win initiative, however, they are able to react to an incoming attack quickly enough to spoil the assassin's attempt. There absolutely shouldn't be visual indicator, because there's no visual indicator for "has fast reactions".


In combat you decide what to do when your turn in the initative comes. If something happens before hand, you can change your action in response, D&D doesn't have you declare your actions in advance. If a wizard was going to cast a spell but the higher init enemy teleports away, the mage isn't locked in to casting a spell, or would you insist they do at your table?

And nothing happens before hand. The surprised creature still can't take actions. They are, however, able to react to what's going on. Using the knowledge that their reflexes are that quick (as indicated by their high initiative) despite no signs to contrary *is* metagaming on the rogue player's part.

[Willie the Duck]

All in all, I don't think that, provided you use the surprise rules more or less as written (and thanks for the link, sophontteks), assassins are all that powerful. Surprise is rare enough. Stealth is risky enough. Having to make two rolls--each of which you are likely to win if you are built for it, but there still being two checks (and honestly if you super-invest in it perhaps you should succeed approaching 100% of the time)-- is hard enough. Being possibly far away from the rest of the clanking party is risky enough. It's just not that powerful. Mostly what it is is unusual for the edition: smaller sure-thing effects are much more the norm than hard to set up all-or-nothing gambles like this. That said, it sounds like the OP for some reason felt that they couldn't put any obstacles or constraints on the assassin's ability to stealth (at least that's what "usually succeeds in his stealth checks" implies to me, as the question as to whether they could stealth in a given situation isn't mentioned), as well as set up underpowered opposition. Instead of one wizard, perhaps two slightly lower-powered casters (or caster-noncaster combo), such that an assassin could take one out, but that would leave them wide open for the others' reprisal (so think carefully as to if this is a good idea)?

[Jamesps]

Honestly, if being able to do about 25 damage (on average) at the beginning of an encounter for a 4th level characters is breaking your encounters it's probably more an indicator that your encounters aren't hard enough. An empowered shatter can do that without too much issue. A tempest cleric can maximize a shatter for 24 damage in an area effect once per short rest, which is arguably as or more reliable than the assassin's gambit. And again, it's area effect.

Just up the difficulty of your encounters a bit. Don't take away the assassin's thing. Fourth level is the last time that it's particularly powerful, so let him enjoy it while that lasts. As soon as everyone hits 5 they'll out perform the assassin in most encounters even with surprise.

[Dark.Revenant]

Yakk’s point is that the book describes what happens if you’re surprised, but not the precise time the mechanical conceit “surprised” stops describing a character. The effect of being surprised is you lose your first turn and can’t take reactions until after your first turn. That implies you’re no longer surprised afterward, but it doesn’t specifically state so.

My interpretation is that surprise continues so long as the preconditions for surprise are kept. If your target still doesn’t notice anything is wrong (via Perception or otherwise), they continue to be surprised regardless of initiative roll.

By the way, melee assassinations are perfectly plausible. If your targets aren’t aware of you and aren’t actively for threats (like just marching along a road), you can utilize the tactics of ambush predators like tigers to rush in when they happen to be looking away.

[Willie the Duck]

Yakk’s point is that the book describes what happens if you’re surprised, but not the precise time the mechanical conceit “surprised” stops describing a character. The effect of being surprised is you lose your first turn and can’t take reactions until after your first turn. That implies you’re no longer surprised afterward, but it doesn’t specifically state so.

I suppose they're correct in that regard. However, that's taking 'well, the book doesn't specifically say...' well past the point that I think a reasonable individual would have of the book having to say. I'm AFB, but I suspect that one out of drowning, falling, and sleeping don't have listed end conditions as well.


My interpretation is that surprise continues so long as the preconditions for surprise are kept. If your target still doesn’t notice anything is wrong (via Perception or otherwise), they continue to be surprised regardless of initiative roll.

Well, if we're going to go full gonzo on this, where does it say that noticing something ends the surprise? Once your character has been surprised once in their life, shouldn't they continue to suffer from surprise forever on an ongoing basis?


By the way, melee assassinations are perfectly plausible. If your targets aren’t aware of you and aren’t actively for threats (like just marching along a road), you can utilize the tactics of ambush predators like tigers to rush in when they happen to be looking away.

Ah, but now aren't we applying common sense to all this? That's not showing nearly enough dedication to the gonzo, man! :smalltongue:

[sophontteks]

There is only one end point explicitly mentioned in the rules. Assuming a different end point is not RAW. The effects of surprise end at the end of their turn, and those effects are what surprise is. If surprise was to continue to exist afterwards, it would have to say so.

[Boci]

There's no "I've got a bad feeling about this". The surprised creature still can't act on their turn even if they win initiative, however, they are able to react to an incoming attack quickly enough to spoil the assassin's attempt. There absolutely shouldn't be visual indicator, because there's no visual indicator for "has fast reactions".

Is the guard imitating a statue? Going from neutral/surprised to combat ready and able to response/take reactions has no visual indicator? What?

[Tanarii]

Just assume the Assassin reveals themselves as part launching the ambush, which is what triggers combat and an initiative roll.

[stoutstien]

Just assume the Assassin reveals themselves as part launching the ambush, which is what triggers combat and an initiative roll.

There are some cases where they would not be aware of being attacked untill they are hit such as if the attackers under the effects of greater invisibility or the target is unconscious/asleep.

[Tanarii]

There are some cases where they would not be aware of being attacked untill they are hit such as if the attackers under the effects of greater invisibility or the target is unconscious/asleep.Eh. It's an abstract rule set. You can describe the results of however it makes most sense to you.

What shouldn't be done is presume the rules derive. In other words, that the creature being attacked is unaware, regardless of the failed resolution of the attackers attempt to surprise / assassinate.

[Boci]

Just assume the Assassin reveals themselves as part launching the ambush, which is what triggers combat and an initiative roll.

That's not how initaitve works. You are not locked in to attacking, you decide to do so when it is your turn in the initiative and can freely change your mind at that point. A cleric who was going to cast flamest strike is free to instead heal.

[Dark.Revenant]

RAW frequently doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Somehow, an invisible and undetected archer can fail to surprise a blind deaf cripple as long as their spider senses alert them to “danger”.

But if we’re going with “gonzo” arguments, let me go full gonzo with RAW, presuming no DM intervention: Suppose the player knows what the initiative rolls are, the player and the victim are alone, the player wins Stealth, and loses Initiative. The player refuses to attack because of the failed Initiative. The victim doesn’t notice or do anything because nothing has actually happened (rolling Initiative doesn’t alert anyone). Combat immediately ends. The player tries again, and again, until he eventually wins initiative. Ultimately, the player gets the assassination auto-crit.

I feel that the DM interfering here would break verisimilitude. The target is, by all rights, surprised by your attack. But for some reason they randomly don’t count as surprised, in a manner completely outside of your control. For Tiamat’s sake, you already have the random factor of actually hitting the target in the first place. How can the target be alerted to the attack when they have explicitly failed to physically perceive it? Does everyone in the world have The Force?

Edit: A further point I should make: resisting the Surprised state is an exceptional ability that only magic items, keen senses granted by your class (eg Barbarian), or an optional feat allow you to accomplish.

[stoutstien]

Surprise is probably tied with the general vision rules for the most occurrences of game stoppage to figure out the best way to rule it.

[Tanarii]

But if we’re going with “gonzo” arguments, let me go full gonzo with RAW, presuming no DM intervention: Suppose the player knows what the initiative rolls are, the player and the victim are alone, the player wins Stealth, and loses Initiative. The player refuses to attack because of the failed Initiative. The victim doesn’t notice or do anything because nothing has actually happened (rolling Initiative doesn’t alert anyone). The player attacking character already revealed themself by initiating combat. The victim immediately noticed, which is why initiative was rolled. The player attacking character is free to continue the attack or do something else instead when their turn comes up. But they've already revealed themself.

Doesn't matter if the player and victim are alone or not, the description of the mechanical result is the same.

[Boci]

The player attacking character already revealed themself by initiating combat. The victim immediately noticed, which is why initiative was rolled. The player attacking character is free to continue the attack or do something else instead when their turn comes up. But they've already revealed themself.

Doesn't matter if the player and victim are alone or not, the description of the mechanical result is the same.

Where does it say that in the rules? Attacking reveals you, not rolling for initative. You need to act to attack.

[Yakk]

It's defined in the combat section.

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

So, your surprised at the start of combat until your turn ends.

You quote rules, then say "so, conculsion" when **that is not what the rules you quoted said**.

Surprised creatures cannot move or take actions on their first turn of combat. And they cannot take a reaction until that turn ends.

This **does not say** "If you are unaware of combat, you start combat with the surprised condition. While surprised you cannot take any actions or reactions or move. You lose the surprised condition at the end of your first turn in combat", which is apparently what you read, but not what was written.

It actually says how you get surprised. Then it states what happens to surprised characters on their first turn. It never states *ever* when the creature is not considered surprised.

Be aware when you are inventing house rules. Be explicit when you are using them. That is a reasonable one, but assuming it is the only reasonable one leads to stupid arguments.

[Dark.Revenant]

The player attacking character already revealed themself by initiating combat. The victim immediately noticed, which is why initiative was rolled. The player attacking character is free to continue the attack or do something else instead when their turn comes up. But they've already revealed themself.

Doesn't matter if the player and victim are alone or not, the description of the mechanical result is the same.


Where does it say that in the rules? Attacking reveals you, not rolling for initative. You need to act to attack.

To elaborate further with a PHB quote: "If you are hidden [...] when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

You don't fall out of stealth, in other words, until after you roll your d20s for the attack roll and the DM resolves whether it's ultimately a hit or a miss. Simply declaring the intention to attack or even *beginning* to attack doesn't break stealth unless you actually go through with it.

[sophontteks]

To elaborate further with a PHB quote: "If you are hidden [...] when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

You don't fall out of stealth, in other words, until after you roll your d20s for the attack roll and the DM resolves whether it's ultimately a hit or a miss. Simply declaring the intention to attack or even *beginning* to attack doesn't break stealth unless you actually go through with it.

The rules for stealth and surprise are different. Stealth wasn't broken, but the character is no longer surprised. Tanarii is just trying to provide a fluff reason for this. The turn based simplified rules dont always make sense.


You quote rules, then say "so, conculsion" when **that is not what the rules you quoted said**.

Surprised creatures cannot move or take actions on their first turn of combat. And they cannot take a reaction until that turn ends.

This **does not say** "If you are unaware of combat, you start combat with the surprised condition. While surprised you cannot take any actions or reactions or move. You lose the surprised condition at the end of your first turn in combat", which is apparently what you read, but not what was written.

It actually says how you get surprised. Then it states what happens to surprised characters on their first turn. It never states *ever* when the creature is not considered surprised.

Be aware when you are inventing house rules. Be explicit when you are using them. That is a reasonable one, but assuming it is the only reasonable one leads to stupid arguments.

There is a clear point where the effects end, and I see no reason to believe there is any reason to assume surprise is anything more then these effects. Hense, if surprise was a condition or state beyond these effects, it would say so.

You are trying to make surprised into a condition or state. Its not.

[Boci]

The rules for stealth and surprise are different. Stealth wasn't broken, but the character is no longer surprised. Tanarii is just trying to provide a fluff reason for this. The turn based simplified rules dont always make sense.

But Tanarii's fluff has mechanical effects too. They said deciding to attack and rolling initiative broke stealth and revealed the assassin, RAW is quite clear that's not true, that only happens when the attack is made. Yes, its RAW that the target is no longer suprised, but its also RAW that the target doesn't know about the assassin until they make an attack, which then creates a wierd scenario if the assassin decides not to attack the no longer surprised target.

[sophontteks]

But Tanarii's fluff has mechanical effects too. They said deciding to attack and rolling initiative broke stealth and revealed the assassin, RAW is quite clear that's not true, that only happens when the attack is made. Yes, its RAW that the target is no longer suprised, but its also RAW that the target doesn't know about the assassin, which creates a wierd scenario, especially is the assassin decides not to attack the no longer surprised target.
Ah, I see.

From my POV the best explanation is that a character winning initiative would have the time to react, but is not aware. But I think the link I posted had a variant rule, which would help. 5e's stealth mechanics are a bit rough anyway.

[MeeposFire]

I would say that if you do not like how surprise works you can change it but you should keep in mind that the assassin was designed with the knowledge of how the RAW version of surprise works which is relatively rare and assassinate would not be common so if you change surprise you probably want to change how assassinate unless you are ok with assassins being more effective that they were designed to be.

[Boci]

Ah, I see.

From my POV the best explanation is that a character winning initiative would have the time to react, but is not aware. But I think the link I posted had a variant rule, which would help. 5e's stealth mechanics are a bit rough anyway.

And then if the assassin decides not to attack? What happens? They bide their time, turn goes back to the guard, they're free to act, but have not percieved a threat. Does combat end? When can the assassin try to assassinate them again?


I would say that if you do not like how surprise works you can change it but you should keep in mind that the assassin was designed with the knowledge of how the RAW version of surprise works which is relatively rare and assassinate would not be common so if you change surprise you probably want to change how assassinate unless you are ok with assassins being more effective that they were designed to be.

Including the RAW of being able to not attack and not reveal yourself? Because that's RAW too.

[sophontteks]

And then if the assassin decides not to attack? What happens? They bide their time, turn goes back to the guard, they're free to act, but have not percieved a threat. Does combat end? When can the assassin try to assassinate them again?

This sounds very meta-gamey. The players should not be basing their decisions on out of game knowledge, and the game isn't written by lawyers. It's not flawless.

[Man_Over_Game]

And then if the assassin decides not to attack? What happens? They bide their time, turn goes back to the guard, they're free to act, but have not percieved a threat. Does combat end? When can the assassin try to assassinate them again?

I'd just modify some stuff to make it so that enemies are:

Unaware > Surprised (occurs the first time they would attempt to act, but can't) > Battle Ready


This sounds very meta-gamey. The players should not be basing their decisions on out of game knowledge, and the game isn't written by lawyers.

Not necessarily. The DM can jump the gun and call for Initiative too early.

Player- "I sneak into the room"

DM- "Alright, roll initiative"

Player- "But I'm still hidden, right?"

DM- "Yep"

Player- "Alright. Then I'm going to keep watching them, as was part of our plan."

DM- "Awkward. Alright, cancel that initiative I guess".

[Boci]

This sounds very meta-gamey. The players should not be basing their decisions on out of game knowledge, and the game isn't written by lawyers.

You think that a guard going from surprised to being ready to act and capable of taking reactions and opportunity attacks will have no visual indicator? Seems like this is a descision the characters make with ingame observable knowledge.

And if you're going to argue "its not flawless", then why take the route that is bad for the assassin? If balance is a concern, remember the big weakness, the need for surprise, is unchanged.


I'd just modify some stuff to make it so that enemies are:

Unaware > Surprised (occurs the first time they would attempt to act, but can't) > Battle Ready

And how long does battle ready last if the assassin doesn't reveal himself?

[Man_Over_Game]

And how long does battle ready last if the assassin doesn't reveal himself?

Oh, I just meant that characters are Unaware until they're either Surprised or Battle Ready. That is, if they have no reason to notice a threat, they never will. If they noticed a threat due to an assassin making a surprise hostile action, the creature is Surprised.

[sophontteks]

You think that a guard going from surprised to being ready to act and capable of taking reactions and opportunity attacks will have no visual indicator? Seems like this is a descision the characters make with ingame observable knowledge.
Yes, there would be no visual indication until the player acts. The guard notices the attack at the very last moment, enough to prevent an automatic crit. Much like seen in old samauri movies where, with no indication an attack would happen, they suddenly dive away from an assassins attack at the very last moment.

As a DM I don't show initiative, so the players really wouldn't have any knowledge.

You can fluff it how you want, or make a house rule. This works fine for me, but I can see room for improvement. I posted a link with a variant rule.

EDIT: about my position. I'm just explaining the rules. I don't have a position. I even posted a house rule people can use.

[Boci]

Yes, there would be no visual indication until the player acts, realizing that the guard notices the attack at the very last moment, enough to prevent an automatic crit. Much like seen in old samauri movies where, with no indication an attack would happen, they suddenly dive away from an assassins attack at the very last moment.

Old samurai movies are old samurai movies, D&D fantasy is D&D fantasy. Most living creatures should have a visual indication that they are now battle ready.

[sophontteks]

Old samurai movies are old samurai movies, D&D fantasy is D&D fantasy. Most living creatures should have a visual indication that they are now battle ready.
Fantasy is fantasy, and guess what. We have samauris here too.

[Boci]

Fantasy is fantasy, and guess what. We have samauris here too.

No, an old samurai movie is not D&D fantasy. An old samurai movie is a visual medium trying to capture the ideal of a very specific cultural concept. D&D isn't a visual medium and its dedicated to many more than just one thing. (And even in old samurai movies there is technically a visual indicator: the samurai stops doing what they previous had been.)

A fantasy guard who has a bad feeling won't stand stock still, they will look around to try and find out what gave them that bad feeling.


EDIT: about my position. I'm just explaining the rules. I don't have a position. I even posted a house rule people can use.

No, you have a position, because you are also choosing to have every NPC play stone statue instead of giving a visual indicator that they are battle ready, which the majortiy will do because they haven't seen a samurai move and wouldn't thing to try and imitate it.

[sophontteks]

No, an old samurai movie is not D&D fantasy. An old samurai movie is a visual medium trying to capture the ideal of a very specific cultural concept. D&D isn't a visual medium and its dedicated to many more than just one thing.

No, you have a position, because you are also choosing to have every NPC play stone statue instead of giving a visual indicator that they are battle ready, which the majortiy will do because they haven't seen a samurai move and wouldn't thing to try and imitate it.
You've become too ridiculous for me to continue this. d&d is multiple mediums, including the very one I added.If you don't like the rules, change them. Use the variant rule I posted. Or go complain to Jeremy.

[Boci]

You've become too ridiculous for me to continue this. d&d is multiple mediums, including the very one I added.

Yes, that's my argument. Basing how surprise attacks work off a very specific form of a single medium is ridiculous for D&D which is multiple meduims. You shouldn't have a general mechanic of D&D defined by the way it was in a single, narrow genre that inorganicly tried emulate a zen warrior ideal.

[Dark.Revenant]

I will just make the point that there are items, a feat, and class abilities that explicitly give you the ability to act like an old samurai movie character.

[Boci]

I will just make the point that there are items, a feat, and class abilities that explicitly give you the ability to act like an old samurai movie character.

Sure, and if you have an ability to do that, you shoud, PC or NPC, I'm just saying it shouldn't be the default way NPCs react, as sophontteks seems to be saying.

Though ironically enough, I don't think the samurai archetype is actually oneof those things.

[Man_Over_Game]

This thread took a weird turn.

[JackPhoenix]

Is the guard imitating a statue? Going from neutral/surprised to combat ready and able to response/take reactions has no visual indicator? What?

The guard is doing exactly the same thing he was doing before. You think surprised people just turn into stone, or something? The reaction only happens when he's attacked, and by that point, it's too late for the assassin to take his action back.

[MaxWilson]

To elaborate further with a PHB quote: "If you are hidden [...] when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

You don't fall out of stealth, in other words, until after you roll your d20s for the attack roll and the DM resolves whether it's ultimately a hit or a miss. Simply declaring the intention to attack or even *beginning* to attack doesn't break stealth unless you actually go through with it.


Genuine (if idle) question: if the guard turns out to have a Sanctuary spell on him when you start to shoot at arrow at him, and you have to abort the attack because you can't bear to harm him (yet), have you given away your position or are you still hidden?

[Boci]

The guard is doing exactly the same thing he was doing before.

No, they're looking to see what has given them this bad feeling and probably reaching for their weapons i.e. very easy to read signs that they have been tipped off that something is up. If they are still doing what they were doing before, that implies they are surprised. Very few indeviduals will go on doing exactly what they did before when they sense an ambush/danger is immident. A few times to show that this NPC is a badass is a cool scene, but that's not how every NPC should be acting.

[JackPhoenix]

No, they're looking to see what has given them this bad feeling and probably reaching for their weapons i.e. very easy to read signs that they have been tipped off that something is up. If they are still doing what they were doing before, that implies they are surprised. Very few indeviduals will go on doing exactly what they did before when they sense an ambush/danger is immident. A few times to show that this NPC is a badass is a cool scene, but that's not how every NPC should be acting.

You're the only one making claims about any "bad feeling". The guard standing watch keeps standing watch, just like he was before, because he's not aware of any danger (and he can't take any action anyway, due to surprise). When the danger.... in the form of non-metagaming assassin making an attack, just like he was about to.... shows up, the guard's reflexes are fast enough that he's able to react and prevent being assassinated. They don't "sense" anything until the attack is underway.

[Boci]

You're the only one making claims about any "bad feeling".

Not true, another posters brought that up and I went with it.



The guard standing watch keeps standing watch, just like he was before, because he's not aware of any danger (and he can't take any action anyway, due to surprise). When the danger.... in the form of non-metagaming assassin making an attack, just like he was about to.... shows up, the guard's reflexes are fast enough that he's able to react and prevent being assassinated. They don't "sense" anything until the attack is underway.

Actually they don't sense anything until after the attack, not during it. Remember the rules are "you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." so the guard is only alerted after the attack is resolved, by which time its too late for them to dive away. So no, your fluff doesn't work. The "rolling initative = bad feeling" works, but that has other issues.

And again, the guard is going from not being able to take opportunity attacks and other reactions, to being able to, a change in their combat readiness which one would expect to have a few visual tells.

[ZiddyT]

I would say that if you do not like how surprise works you can change it but you should keep in mind that the assassin was designed with the knowledge of how the RAW version of surprise works which is relatively rare and assassinate would not be common so if you change surprise you probably want to change how assassinate unless you are ok with assassins being more effective that they were designed to be.

Which is to say that the Assassin (by proxy of 5E stealth and surprise) is designed terribly.

[Boci]

Which is to say that the Assassin (by proxy of 5E stealth and surprise) is designed terribly.

Dunno about that. Assassinate is very powerful, so it makes sense it hard to get.

I don't the concern about how assassins will break the game if you let surprise last for one round though, as long as surprise is still needed, that's the major limitation that ensures assassinate isn't too powerful. I think as long as the assassin got surprise they should get assassinate, giving another chance to fail (on top of not only needing surprise but also needing to hit, which should be doable but isn't automatic) just feels like overkill, and feels bad for the assassin who worked hard and put themselves out of position from the party to set up the surprise, only to see it wasted because the enemy rolled higher initiative. Extra feels bad if the DM refuses to tell which of the enemies is and isn't still surprised. Sheesh.

[stoutstien]

I don't know, I think the assassin is pretty poorly design. not just the assassinate feature but the fact that none of the other features in the class work together but rather they actually fight each other.I think it tried to cover too much ground being the super sneaky stabby assassin, the suave getting close and stab you in a crowd one, and maybe the master of donning adisguise and poisoning somebody at a banquet.
All that stack onto your big damage booster it's completely DM dependent? No thanks.

The sad part as you level up a thief or a scout become better assassins.

[JackPhoenix]

Actually they don't sense anything until after the attack, not during it. Remember the rules are "you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." so the guard is only alerted after the attack is resolved, by which time its too late for them to dive away. So no, your fluff doesn't work.

They clearly do, because if they are not surprised, they can use their reaction to do something that interferes with that attack.... cast a Shield, use Defensive Duelist (well, not that one, unless the guard already had an appropriate weapon drawn) or Parry reaction, whatever. Mechanically, trigger for the reaction come after the action is (partially) resolved, but the benefit applies retroactively. Narratively, just like you don't cast Shield *after* you are stabbed, you are aware of the assassin's strike before he kills you... not fast enough to not give him advantage from being unseen, but fast enough to spoil his Assassinate.

Or, if you want to go that way, because the damage roll also happens after you resolve the attack roll and decide if the attack hits or misses, the guard become aware of the attack after the attack hits, but before damage can be rolled and Assassinate applied.


And again, the guard is going from not being able to take opportunity attacks and other reactions, to being able to, a change in their combat readiness which one would expect to have a few visual tells.

A creature that has already used its reaction is also unable to use it again. What "visual tells" are there to notice that, if you come across creature which used its reaction without you seeing it, it can't swing at you when you move past it?

[Boci]

Narratively, just like you don't cast Shield *after* you are stabbed, you are aware of the assassin's strike before he kills you... not fast enough to not give him advantage from being unseen, but fast enough to spoil his Assassinate.

Nerratively according to you, important distinction. This is no longer RAW, you could rule the assassin knows the target is no longer surprised and it would be just as RAW, and that's probably the ruling that's going to result in the player having more fun, and the ruling doesn't make setting up assassinations any easier.


A creature that has already used its reaction is also unable to use it again. What "visual tells" are there to notice that, if you come across creature which used its reaction without you seeing it, it can't swing at you when you move past it?

Its mid combat and a round is 6 seconds, you will likely see the results of the OA, and see them recover their stance at the start of their turn so they can make it again.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Nerratively according to you, important distinction. This is no longer RAW, you could rule the assassin knows the target is no longer surprised and it would be just as RAW, and that's probably the ruling that's going to result in the player having more fun, and the ruling doesn't make setting up assassinations any easier.
By giving them a permission slip to just walk away you do nothing to stop them from just leaving this theoretical ambush, coming back and expecting a new set of initiative rolls. By your own logic this should be fine because their target is absolutely none the wiser, they will wait for eternity until the Assassin has secured their higher spot in initiative through attrition.

So I disagree, it does make things easier for the Assassin. A lot easier, by proxy of giving them more attempts to use the feature on the same target, which really shouldn't happen.

"I think I'll just shoot that guard there."
*a brief moment, literally a breath later*
"No, on second thought my sixth sense tells me I don't think I have the drop on him anymore, take five guys, I'll do a loop around the place and try again"
*5 loops around the block later*
"Finally, he's clearly not paying any attention to me in a different way than the first 4 times. Better take the shot before I miss this chance."

It doesn't sound like a very good narrative and it's certainly not conducive to a good time in my book.

[JackPhoenix]

Nerratively according to you, important distinction. This is no longer RAW, you could rule the assassin knows the target is no longer surprised and it would be just as RAW, and that's probably the ruling that's going to result in the player having more fun, and the ruling doesn't make setting up assassinations any easier.

Yeah, I could metagame just like you. But that metagaming leads to problems you've pointed out.


Its mid combat and a round is 6 seconds, you will likely see the results of the OA, and see them recover their stance at the start of their turn so they can make it again.

Which is why I've specifically mentioned you haven't seen the creature use its reaction.... you were in another room and moved close it on your turn, for example. Or the creature took its reaction on its turns... they are few ways to do that, Shield to avoid OA, or it used OA after it cast Dissonant Whisper on someone before moving to other room with you. Whatever. What "stance" is there to recover in such case?

[stoutstien]

Think how great it would be if being surprised was just -5 on your initiative roll. clean-cut and done.

[Yakk]

There is a clear point where the effects end, and I see no reason to believe there is any reason to assume surprise is anything more then these effects. Hense, if surprise was a condition or state beyond these effects, it would say so.

You are trying to make surprised into a condition or state. Its not.
The assassim class feature does that, not me.

It states that if a foe is surprised. That either means "is surprised when attacked" or "has ever been surprised" due to ambiguities of english grammar.

If we assume surprise *is* a status effect, then we have to impute when it ends.

If we don't, then it means "has ever been surprised". Which is ridiculously awesome, unless we tie it to the first part of the feature -- on the first turn of combat. Or further, also require initiative winning.

But that requires a completely different chain of reasoning. If you go and flop from one chain of reasoning to another with the same conclusion, that is strong evidence you aren't basing your decisions on the reasoning, but rather the concusion.

Simply inventing that surprise "ends" on a creatures turn is your houserule. I'm just trying to read RAW, which is almost always ambiguous.

It happens *alot* that someone claims ambiguous stuff isn't, and laments "not my fault it is RAW".

[zinycor]

Think how great it would be if being surprised was just -5 on your initiative roll. clean-cut and done.

You wuld see a lot less stealth

[stoutstien]

You wuld see a lot less stealth

I don't see why. Stealth is still good for scouting, avoiding threats, in combat options, and everything else it's good at.
Surprise isn't worth the trouble most of the time anyways might as well streamline it.

[bid]

Where does it say that in the rules? Attacking reveals you, not rolling for initative. You need to act to attack.
Why did you roll for initiative?
Because you commited to an action.

That's the same logic as rerolling dex check (Stealth) until your result is good enough. I'm sorry but if there's no taking back stepping on a leaf.

There's no taking back once you charge into melee.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't see why. Stealth is still good for scouting, avoiding threats, in combat options, and everything else it's good at.
Surprise isn't worth the trouble most of the time anyways might as well streamline it.

I find myself agreeing with this, even when you don't "surprise" the enemy, managing stealth against them is usually the best way to get yourself into an advantageous position when combat does inevitably break out.

Usually when we surprise something at our table (very rare) it's not something we did intentionally and when it was (which I only ever recall happening once) I don't think it gave us a significant advantage that simply going first wouldn't have also accomplished.

[Tanarii]

To elaborate further with a PHB quote: "If you are hidden [...] when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

You don't fall out of stealth, in other words, until after you roll your d20s for the attack roll and the DM resolves whether it's ultimately a hit or a miss. Simply declaring the intention to attack or even *beginning* to attack doesn't break stealth unless you actually go through with it.


The rules for stealth and surprise are different. Stealth wasn't broken, but the character is no longer surprised. Tanarii is just trying to provide a fluff reason for this. The turn based simplified rules dont always make sense.
Right. Ambush / surprise is its own mechanic. It uses Stealth to resolve, but it isn't Hiding.

It's not that "Stealth wasn't broken", it's that you're establish surprise as a result of an ambush. A lot of folks assume this means the Assassin is Hiding, and their cognitive disconnect on the Combat Swoosh arises from that. Hiding has nothing to do with it. It's "Hiding wasn't broken", and it's because it's not a Hiding mechanic.

[Drache64]

The assassim class feature does that, not me.

It states that if a foe is surprised. That either means "is surprised when attacked" or "has ever been surprised" due to ambiguities of english grammar.

If we assume surprise *is* a status effect, then we have to impute when it ends.

If we don't, then it means "has ever been surprised". Which is ridiculously awesome, unless we tie it to the first part of the feature -- on the first turn of combat. Or further, also require initiative winning.

But that requires a completely different chain of reasoning. If you go and flop from one chain of reasoning to another with the same conclusion, that is strong evidence you aren't basing your decisions on the reasoning, but rather the concusion.

Simply inventing that surprise "ends" on a creatures turn is your houserule. I'm just trying to read RAW, which is almost always ambiguous.

It happens *alot* that someone claims ambiguous stuff isn't, and laments "not my fault it is RAW".

I don't mean to jump into a dialogue you're having with someone else, but it seems very intriguing the way you're interpreting the RAW. I went back and looked at pages 189, 290,291 and you're correct, surprise is not a condition listed under Appendix A for condition effects. And it doesn't specify if surprise ends, only that the DM decides who is surprised at the beginning of the round.

It seems a rules lawyer could argue that someone who is surprised would remain in a surprised category for the duration of the combat.

However RAW would include official FAQ:
According to Sage Advice FAQ "a surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of it's first turn in combat" (SA-Compendium.pdf page 5).

Though this info takes a little bit of know-how to look up (just a tiny bit).

[Willie the Duck]

It seems a rules lawyer could argue that someone who is surprised would remain in a surprised category for the duration of the combat.

I would have problems with that rules lawyer for assuming that it ended at the end of combat. That's the problem with 'but the rules don't specify' arguments, in that people always then find some other point convenient to their position where some kind of common sense 'must' kick in. RAW just means what's written down*, so it absolutely can be unrealistic, contradictory, even paradox-inducing, there's no reason it can't be merely absurd.
*as noted, official revisions usually included


However RAW would include official FAQ:
According to Sage Advice FAQ "a surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of it's first turn in combat" (SA-Compendium.pdf page 5).

Though this info takes a little bit of know-how to look up (just a tiny bit).

I think that means that the devs agree. I wonder if they are thinking "I can't believe we have to do this!" or "Huh, looks like we forgot an important clause in the rules."

[tchntm43]

So just to clarify, I did kinda set up the adventure to be ideal for sneaking and sneak attack. It took place in a fortress with dimly lit hallways. The party also made decisions that worked well to that effect. For the Level 5 wizard, they were using a Broom of Flying to go one at a time to the 5th floor of a tower in the fortress, checking stealth to enter that floor through a large open window. The wizard was on floor 6. The dwarf failed his stealth check and tripped over the edge of the windowsill, falling on the floor and alerting the guards. Of course, the wizard went down after them to blow stuff up. The next character had intended to sneak in the 6th floor room anyway, and arrived just after the wizard left it to go downstairs. He heard the fighting, snuck down the stairs to find the wizard with her back to him, had already passed his stealth check, and went for the killing blow.

He had similar advantages of terrain and distraction when it came to the ogre and the black dragon wyrmling (both of which are only CR 2, but I still didn't expect them to die before taking turns of their own).

5 level 4 characters have a 2500 XP budget for a Deadly encounter, which is where you probably want to set a 'boss' encounter. A NPC with 5th level wizard casting is probably CR 2-3, call it CR 3 because of Fireball. If you make it 3-6 enemies, that leaves 1100 XP in the budget, which is enough for 5 CR 1 allies (and still falls short of deadly by 100 XP).

Yeah, pretty much I was worried about the impact of the enemy having Fireball at this point. I overestimated how much it would destroy the party. She did cast Fireball, but both characters in the room at the time made their saving throws and survived the damage. The far more dangerous effect was her using Gust of Wind to blow the party's wizard out the window causing her to take 4d10 falling damage (her full-strength arcane ward saved her there).

Anyway, a lot of useful tips in this thread for me to consider going forward. Thanks.

[patchyman]

Where does it say that in the rules? Attacking reveals you, not rolling for initative. You need to act to attack.

But you only roll for initiative if someone is initiating combat. Unless the rogue has committed to attacking, you don’t roll initiative.

[Yakk]

A single CR 5 monster is roughly a medium fight for your party. The party size (5) generates about as much power as another character level.

A single CR 2 is like *half* of an easy fight for a level 5 party. That is a bag of rats.

[greenstone]

And then if the assassin decides not to attack?
They can, but they have to do something else - they've already committed to do something. That's what rolling initiative means.

Also, I'm not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread already, but a creature is only surprised if it notices no threats. The assassin needs to be hidden, but so does the rest of the party. If the foe does not notice the assisn but does notice the fighter, then the foe is not surprised.

Either the entire party needs to be hidden well, or the assassin needs to be well in front of the party, and thus exposed when the foe counterattacks.

[Keravath]

Yeah, pretty much I was worried about the impact of the enemy having Fireball at this point. I overestimated how much it would destroy the party. She did cast Fireball, but both characters in the room at the time made their saving throws and survived the damage. The far more dangerous effect was her using Gust of Wind to blow the party's wizard out the window causing her to take 4d10 falling damage (her full-strength arcane ward saved her there).

Anyway, a lot of useful tips in this thread for me to consider going forward. Thanks.

Just a quick comment but falling damage is typically d6/10 feet not d10. If the character fell 40 feet it would usually be 4d6 damage. It could be you are using a house rule or it might be a typo but I thought I would mention it.

[Keravath]

So just to clarify, I did kinda set up the adventure to be ideal for sneaking and sneak attack. It took place in a fortress with dimly lit hallways. The party also made decisions that worked well to that effect. For the Level 5 wizard, they were using a Broom of Flying to go one at a time to the 5th floor of a tower in the fortress, checking stealth to enter that floor through a large open window. The wizard was on floor 6. The dwarf failed his stealth check and tripped over the edge of the windowsill, falling on the floor and alerting the guards. Of course, the wizard went down after them to blow stuff up. The next character had intended to sneak in the 6th floor room anyway, and arrived just after the wizard left it to go downstairs. He heard the fighting, snuck down the stairs to find the wizard with her back to him, had already passed his stealth check, and went for the killing blow.

He had similar advantages of terrain and distraction when it came to the ogre and the black dragon wyrmling (both of which are only CR 2, but I still didn't expect them to die before taking turns of their own).


Just another quick comment ... surprise has to do with the status of the TARGET not the attacker. If the attacker is unseen then they will get advantage on their attacks but they won't get surprise if the combat has already started or if the target is aware of threats and is looking for them.

In your example, the wizard becomes aware of attackers and may have even rolled initiative to go downstairs and attack. The rogue is NOT eligible for surprise even if the wizard doesn't know they are there. The wizard is aware, paying attention and is assumed to be looking around for threats so the rogue doesn't have surprise, just advantage for not being seen. This still allows the use of sneak attack but not the automatic criticals of assassinate. In addition, if the rogue comes to the combat AFTER the first round, then they don't get assassinate anyway since the creature is surprised only until the end of its first turn (see Sage Advice compendium for official rules clarifications).