Would a Scout using Iaijutsu Focus be too OP?

[Drejzer]

For some time now, I've been wanting to try a character going for the "one strike, one kill" kind of combat style...

And thus, my idea for a Iaijutsu Focus Scout took root.
The main idea is to get IF as a class skill (a custom Mentor(Apprentice Feat)? Skill Knowledge? or something along those lines) and then find some semi-reliable ways to trigger it (a Warblade dip would be a dream come true, but the realistic option (besides "**** No, That's Way Too OP") would probably be hoping for Martial Study and Uncanny Trickster (to get the Acrobatic Backstab twice/encounter) later on.

But with me being already labelled as a "min-maxxxer"(for wanting to play "a Sorcerer with infinite spells taht is also good in melee on top of that" and failing to explain that Swordsages aren't that...), and our party(all at 7th level) consists of a TWF Ranger, a Sorc/Warlock, a Wizard, a Cleric, a Marshal and myself(the hopeful Scout with IF), though I believe that in a few weeks we're going to get another party member, no idea about the class though.
I'm not sure about the optimisation level of the group, but I assume it might be low to nonexistent (except the Sorc/Warlock... and maybe the Ranger).

So basically: would a Scout (probably with a level of ranger for the Swift Hunter availability, with Imp. Skirmish and focusing on Dex and general skillmonkeying) with Iaijutsu Focus be way too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party?
:smallfrown:

PS: sorry for incoherent rambling, it's almost 3am as I'm typing this, I'll try to go through this post again tommorow or day after tomorrow and clear it up.

(And by the way, Merry [Christmas|Christmas' Eve|Solstice] to you!)

[zlefin]

quite possibly. Also whether or not something is actually OP, or people complain about it being OP, aren't the same. But this group would probably complain about it by the limited information listed. It's hard to judge the group's actual optimization level without more detail; as tier 1 casters are so variable, and they can end up strong without meaning to.

[Techwarrior]

Tables that say things like what you're quoting them for on the Swordsage are the groups most likely to have issue with high DPR martial types, at least in my own experience. As such you have to be particularly careful when optimizing your martial, but in particular your melee capability.

There's several ways to handle this. My particular favorite is instead of playing the super awesome melee build that I've wanted to play to instead be a force multiplier of some kind. You have to feel out your particular group, as each will have their own holy "thou must not exceed X" standard that you must abide by.

However, if you're actually in the kind of group I think you're in, you can usually get away with incredibly ridiculous things as long as they are NOT expressed in dice or direct damage.

I do understand that this does not actually answer your question. The problem is, I can't answer it for you. Something I would allow in my group probably wouldn't fly in yours and vice versa. The best way to figure out what you can get away with is going to be to talk to your DM. If you suggest something that he thinks is completely innocuous, that's usually a green light to me.

[Saintheart]

The main idea is to get IF as a class skill (a custom Mentor(Apprentice Feat)? Skill Knowledge? or something along those lines) and then find some semi-reliable ways to trigger it (a Warblade dip would be a dream come true, but the realistic option (besides "**** No, That's Way Too OP") would probably be hoping for Martial Study and Uncanny Trickster (to get the Acrobatic Backstab twice/encounter) later on.

Getting IF as a class skill: Able Learner, which basically makes any skill a class skill for you, including Iaijutsu Focus. Or take a level in Human Paragon.

When it comes to triggering it reliably, it's really about finding methods to render the enemy flatfooted. And it has to be flatfooted, denied DEX bonus to AC is not the same thing, so techniques that focus on Feinting won't work. Acrobatic Backstab is one way. Flick of the Wrist skill trick is another. Hidden Blade might work for drawing weapons. Another is to reliably win initiative, or at least get a higher initiative than the enemy since an enemy that hasn't yet acted in the round is still flatfooted. Weirdly, Iaijutsu Focus is actually easier to use with ranged attacks than melee.

[Drejzer]

Getting IF as a class skill: Able Learner, which basically makes any skill a class skill for you, including Iaijutsu Focus. Or take a level in Human Paragon.

When it comes to triggering it reliably, it's really about finding methods to render the enemy flatfooted. And it has to be flatfooted, denied DEX bonus to AC is not the same thing, so techniques that focus on Feinting won't work. Acrobatic Backstab is one way. Flick of the Wrist skill trick is another. Hidden Blade might work for drawing weapons. Another is to reliably win initiative, or at least get a higher initiative than the enemy since an enemy that hasn't yet acted in the round is still flatfooted. Weirdly, Iaijutsu Focus is actually easier to use with ranged attacks than melee.


Paraphrasing my DM: "What's the point of having multiple roles in the party if one guy can roll all skills?" (I'd love to pull that off, but you see, it failed before, without having to worry about being too powerful... )

My main concern is whether there is even a point in trying to build it, considering the rest of the party (I don't want them to feel useless...)

[Crake]

If we assume roughly +15 to iaijutsu focus, you're looking at on average about +4d6 from that, plus 4d6 from improved skirmish, so +8d6 damage on your one hit wonder, which, I mean, on average that comes out to 28 bonus damage, which is nice, but pretty far off a one shot.

On the other hand, a ranger 3/scout 3/fighter 1 with greater manyshot and swift hunter could be pumping out two arrows at +4d6 each, every round. Now, granted, the manyshot arrows are at -4 each, but again, that's every round, and you can just opt out of manyshotting if your opponent is too hard to hit.

[Anthrowhale]

- Able Learner does not affect the maximum number of ranks of a skill. It just eliminates the increase cost of a cross-class skill.

- Aereni Focus provides a way to gain IF as a class skill.

- For the OP, a DFI Bard might be a good way to inflict significant damage while not triggering an allergic reaction. Since the Marshal is the party face, you might consider deconflicting via Bard 1 / Cloistered Cleric 6 taking Divine Inspiration (Dragon #333) to continue your music advancement. You can get effective trapfinding via the Kobold Domain and stealth via the Trickery domain.

[Mike Miller]

If you really want a "one hit, one kill" build, make an Uber charger. They are more reliable than IF

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Invisibility (and stealth/total concealment in general) renders opponents flat-footed (this rule is tucked away in the Rules Compendium, but does make perfect sense). This would probably be too OP for the group, but a Monk that traded Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike (so far so good) and took the Dark Moon Disciple and Invisible Fist substitution levels (really strong, would probably be labelled OP) would be super on point thematically. You might be able to get away with it dropping Dark Moon Disciple, though.

As for getting Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, Aereni Focus is a more legit form of Skill Knowledge: makes a single skill permanently a class skill, and gives you a +3 bonus to boot. The downsides are that it can only be taken at first level, is setting specific (Eberron), and requires the Elf race. After that, Human Paragon is the best option, followed closely by Skill Knowledge (note that since you get skills before you get feats, you can't take advantage of Skill Knowledge the level you get it in most circumstances).

[Crake]

Invisibility (and stealth/total concealment in general) renders opponents flat-footed (this rule is tucked away in the Rules Compendium, but does make perfect sense).

Can you cite which page this is on? I just did a search through my rules compendium, and the only references to flat-footed I found were regards to not having acted yet. Invisibility denies an opponent their dexterity, but it doesn't render them flat footed as far as I'm aware.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Can you cite which page this is on? I just did a search through my rules compendium, and the only references to flat-footed I found were regards to not having acted yet. Invisibility denies an opponent their dexterity, but it doesn't render them flat footed as far as I'm aware.

Pg 92. EDIT: Weirdly, doesn't show up to "control+f" in my PDF, but it's right above the Blend Into a Crowd use of the Hide skill on page 92.


If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible.

Total concealment makes it so that you are automatically hidden from a creature, therefore total concealment inflicts the flat-footed condition upon foes that can't penetrate it.

Annoying difficult to piece together, but like I said in a Junkyard Wars round in which I used this trick for Iaijutsu Focus, it does make a demented kind of sense that the stealth rules would be hard to find.

[tyckspoon]

Pg 92. EDIT: Weirdly, doesn't show up to "control+f" in my PDF, but it's right above the Blend Into a Crowd use of the Hide skill on page 92.



Total concealment makes it so that you are automatically hidden from a creature, therefore total concealment inflicts the flat-footed condition upon foes that can't penetrate it.

Annoying difficult to piece together, but like I said in a Junkyard Wars round in which I used this trick for Iaijutsu Focus, it does make a demented kind of sense that the stealth rules would be hard to find.

IIRC this is one of the points where the Rules Compendium is actually doing stealth errata and not just 'compiling' rules and updates from other sources. There's a couple others, but taking 'attacking while undetected' from 'target loses Dex mod' to 'target is actually flat-footed' has, I think, the most mechanical ramifications and knock-on effects on other interactions.

[Drejzer]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

GM approved the concept, we will se how it turns out.:biggrin:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

GM approved the concept, we will se how it turns out.:biggrin:

Awesome!


EDIT:

IIRC this is one of the points where the Rules Compendium is actually doing stealth errata and not just 'compiling' rules and updates from other sources. There's a couple others, but taking 'attacking while undetected' from 'target loses Dex mod' to 'target is actually flat-footed' has, I think, the most mechanical ramifications and knock-on effects on other interactions.

I think it's actually a new rule introduced in the Rules Compendium. I certainly couldn't find anything in the PHB, SRD, or I think the PHBII about the target losing their Dex bonus, flat-footed or otherwise (though admittedly my search wasn't super thorough, since I turned to rpgstackexchange and found the RC quote). Honestly, I suspect it slipped by because it seemed too obvious and everyone assumed it must have already been in there somewhere. Obviously if you can't see the person you're going to be surprised by their attack.

[AvatarVecna]

It's difficult to truly claim this is broken, at least by community standards. If you have Scout 20, Improved Skirmish feat, Power Attack Iaijutsu feat, and +49 Iaijutsu Focus. You are looking at, once per turn, base weapon damage +16d6. You're maybe using a greatsword +5 and maybe you're Str-based for some reason and have Str 26 (idk, why not?), so probably looking at a total of 18d6+17 (DPR avg 80).

Compare this with a Greatsword Fighter of similar strength using the same Greatsword +5 who has...let's say Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing), Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz. This guy is just moving and making three attacks dealing 2d6+21 each (avg DPA 28, avg DPR 84). We aren't touching on pounce, or Power Attack, or haste extra attacks, or things like Knowledge Devotion...just getting the flat bonuses three times is sufficient, and he's still getting to move.