Spitball idea: any holes?

[Nagog]

Hey ya'll! I had an idea for a low level caster tank, I was hoping to pitch it here and see what holes ya'll could find and perhaps ways to enhance it.

The idea is for a 4th level character, 2 Wizard / 2 Warlock. Wizard would be Abjuration, Warlock is flexible, but probably Hexblade to nab Shield. Warlock would pick up Armor of Shadows ASAP to be able to cast Mage Armor at will. Between fights, casting Mage Armor at will to fill your Arcane Ward, then during fights rely on it and cast Shield with a Warlock slot to replenish it when it gets low. AoA would also replenish it as well as trigger when it is hit, effectively giving you infinite damage with it (within it's duration of course) if you can maintain your Ward.

Would this tactic work? On top of that, past level 4 would you be more inclined to go up the Wizard route and increase your Ward's maximum or up the Warlock route to increase the AoA damage and the refill granted by upcasting Shield? On that note, would upcasting the spell increase the Ward's refill at all? The wording of the Ward is


the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell.

So the question would be, does upcasting the spell increase the spell's level, or would casting Armor of Agathys at 5th level still only grant my ward 2hp, as base AoA is a 1st level spell?

[Theodoxus]

Upcasting, even if there's no added benefit, does change the spell level, so yes, a 2nd level Shield would provide 4 points to your Arcane Ward.

Of course it's not a great multiclass, given the need for Int (as high as possible for maximizing your Ward) and Cha (which looks like it'll be your primary attack stat if going Hexblade (but why not just grab Shield from the Wizard list?) And of course Dex, since you'll be using Mage Armor... and Con is pretty important too.

All that said, it's not a bad tank, but you're kinda squishy... you might be better off going Fiend for the extra THP from kills... maybe even grab Fiendish Vigor for those times when you've run out of THP and don't have a kill target available...

[Kane0]

Why not war wizard for the reaction defensive boost? Unless you’re more interested in wizard levels rather than more warlock

Edit: using invocations and short rest slots to charge your abjuration ward should be fine though, you’re giving up two levels of casting progression to get it

[MrStabby]

Would it work? Yes. Optimal? Probably not.

If you want a casting tank at this level then moon druid is probably what you want to benchmark against.

What do you see your stat balance as being? If you want arcane ward to be your main feature then you are leaning on your wizard spells. If, turn by turn you are looking for things like eldritch blast then you will be looking for Cha over int.

You have a lot of flexibility as the key spells you want don't need a high casting stat.

I do wander if you will just regret not going one class though. If you had just gone Warlock you could take hexblade and be running round with medium armour, a shield and the shield spell as well as having more base HP through the hit die. If tankyness is your thing then sticking your level 4 ASI into constitution would help further to provide that HP buffer.

If you had gone wizard then you would be able to use spells like blur and mirror image to make you harder to hit as well as having access to better offensive spells.

Of course if you are going to higher levels then some of the balance changes. If you want at will recharge of the abjuration ward then svirfneblin non-detection holds you back a lot less.

[Bobthewizard]

Treantmonk did a video on a similar build. I think it would work well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecc83o4O4FQ

With the new Eberron book, you can do this without a multi class by using a Mark of Warding Dwarf which gets +1 Int and then adds Armor of Agathys to its spell list. That's how I would do it so you don't slow down your wizard spells known and spell slot progression.

[bendking]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45
Here you go. Be a full caster, tankier than most tanks. Wizard is a totally balanced class.

[Nagog]

Would it work? Yes. Optimal? Probably not.

If you want a casting tank at this level then moon druid is probably what you want to benchmark against.

What do you see your stat balance as being? If you want arcane ward to be your main feature then you are leaning on your wizard spells. If, turn by turn you are looking for things like eldritch blast then you will be looking for Cha over int.

You have a lot of flexibility as the key spells you want don't need a high casting stat.

I do wander if you will just regret not going one class though. If you had just gone Warlock you could take hexblade and be running round with medium armour, a shield and the shield spell as well as having more base HP through the hit die. If tankyness is your thing then sticking your level 4 ASI into constitution would help further to provide that HP buffer.

If you had gone wizard then you would be able to use spells like blur and mirror image to make you harder to hit as well as having access to better offensive spells.

Of course if you are going to higher levels then some of the balance changes. If you want at will recharge of the abjuration ward then svirfneblin non-detection holds you back a lot less.


The intent is less of a powerbuilt tank and more of a interesting and fun build. The goal is to keep one casting of Armor of Agathys dishing out damage as long as possible. To that end, buffing Arcane Ward could do it, or taking the UA Eldritch Armor and Heavy Armor MAster could help, or upcasting AoA. There's a variety of options, but none seem to me to be the optimal approach. Upcasting AoA dishes more damage, but the AoA health will not last as long. Buffing the Ward can keep it going longer but at less damage. HAM is nice, but requires UA approval and is specifically against non-magical physical damage. Considering neither Ward nor AoA are Concentration, perhaps Barbarian's Rage granting Resistance could work to further it's effects? Would make the build insanely MAD but it could still be fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

The intent is less of a powerbuilt tank and more of a interesting and fun build. The goal is to keep one casting of Armor of Agathys dishing out damage as long as possible. To that end, buffing Arcane Ward could do it, or taking the UA Eldritch Armor and Heavy Armor MAster could help, or upcasting AoA. There's a variety of options, but none seem to me to be the optimal approach. Upcasting AoA dishes more damage, but the AoA health will not last as long. Buffing the Ward can keep it going longer but at less damage. HAM is nice, but requires UA approval and is specifically against non-magical physical damage. Considering neither Ward nor AoA are Concentration, perhaps Barbarian's Rage granting Resistance could work to further it's effects? Would make the build insanely MAD but it could still be fun.

I think you'll get the most use out of Warlock + Barbarian, as the Barbarian doubles the endurance of AoA with just a single level. Take a second one for Reckless Attack (more hits on both sides, both good things) and max out Warlock and invest in Eldritch Smite/hexblade options. It's a pretty solid and fun build.

Warlock 3 and Barbarian 2 means your AoA is taking 20 damage. Pretty solid, if you ask me. Combine Reckless Attack and the enhanced crit range from Hexblade, and that's a 27% crit chance.

[Theaitetos]

Why not war wizard for the reaction defensive boost? Unless you’re more interested in wizard levels rather than more warlock

Because then he'd lose the Abjuration ward.

The idea is basically to use spells without slot costs (usually Warlock invocations) to achieve an effect based on another feature. For example, a Storm Sorcerer can fly all over the place with constantly casting Disguise Self (Mask of Many Faces).


I think you'll get the most use out of Warlock + Barbarian, as the Barbarian doubles the endurance of AoA with just a single level. Take a second one for Reckless Attack (more hits on both sides, both good things) and max out Warlock and invest in Eldritch Smite/hexblade options. It's a pretty solid and fun build.

Warlock 3 and Barbarian 2 means your AoA is taking 20 damage. Pretty solid, if you ask me. Combine Reckless Attack and the enhanced crit range from Hexblade, and that's a 27% crit chance.

The OP doesn't want AoA to take any damage if possible. He wants to have AoA deal unlimited cold damage to his melee attackers, by absorbing the damage with his Abjuration ward. That way AoA will deal cold damage with every hit, but it will never end because the hit damage never reduces AoA's temporary hitpoints.

[Man_Over_Game]

Because then he'd lose the Abjuration ward.

The idea is basically to use spells without slot costs (usually Warlock invocations) to achieve an effect based on another feature. For example, a Storm Sorcerer can fly all over the place with constantly casting Disguise Self (Mask of Many Faces).



The OP doesn't want AoA to take any damage if possible. He wants to have AoA deal unlimited cold damage to his melee attackers, by absorbing the damage with his Abjuration ward. That way AoA will deal cold damage with every hit, but it will never end because the hit damage never reduces AoA's temporary hitpoints.

As a melee requirement to the spell, that's not a consistent strategy. Not when your fueling power (Shield) actively prevents the effect from happening by making enemies miss.

Consider that a single Barbarian level adds *2 to AoA's size, while 2 levels into a caster gives +5 for AoA, and another +2 for the ward.

A 5 Warlock/1 Barbarian can take a total of 30 damage with one spell slot. How many levels/slots would it take for a Wizard/Warlock equivalent?

[Nagog]

Because then he'd lose the Abjuration ward.

The idea is basically to use spells without slot costs (usually Warlock invocations) to achieve an effect based on another feature. For example, a Storm Sorcerer can fly all over the place with constantly casting Disguise Self (Mask of Many Faces).



... Holy crap that's not something I'd ever considered before... This sounds like something I should try XD



The OP doesn't want AoA to take any damage if possible. He wants to have AoA deal unlimited cold damage to his melee attackers, by absorbing the damage with his Abjuration ward. That way AoA will deal cold damage with every hit, but it will never end because the hit damage never reduces AoA's temporary hitpoints.
This is true, having AoA last the full duration is the intent and the goal. Tier 1 play may not be possible with that, but with further levels in either direction may help duration but weaken output, and vice versa.

As a melee requirement to the spell, that's not a consistent strategy. Not when your fueling power (Shield) actively prevents the effect from happening by making enemies miss.

Consider that a single Barbarian level adds *2 to AoA's size, while 2 levels into a caster gives +5 for AoA, and another +2 for the ward.

A 5 Warlock/1 Barbarian can take a total of 30 damage with one spell slot. How many levels/slots would it take for a Wizard/Warlock equivalent?

A Wizard 4/Warlock 2 could absorb 18 if they do not do their upkeep on it, or 28 if your DM allows the casting of Warlock spells with Wizard slots. As far as using Shield to upkeep, I'd imagine that such a character (being a Wizard base) would have incredibly low AC to start and Shield would boost them to middling range. Combining that with spells such as Absorb Elements (which would also trigger AoA as long as it's melee elemental damage) could extend the duration quite far.
I feel the issue with going into Barbarian for this build is it violates the principle of the character. While Warlocks and Wizards have plenty of abilities that can help across the board, Barbarians are specifically built for combat. This character's intent would be to avoid the combat as first priority, second be to survive it. A level in Barbarian would significantly reduce the potential longevity of the build (as raging prevents recasting and protecting the AoA), as well as the vast majority of features from that dip would be wasted.
So while Barbarian wouldn't do as well, perhaps looking into contracting a form of lycanthropy that also grants resistances could be beneficial?