[3.5] Shadowcaster and level loss

[Darg]

The party ran into a couple of vampire spawns and the shadowcaster managed to face tank some negative levels. After the fight he refused to have his levels restored spouting that what doesn't kill him would make him stronger. The party who thought he went insane tried to force him to be healed, but through sheer luck of the nat 20's managed to escape and stayed hidden until after 24 hours when he failed all but one of the saves making the negative levels permanent. The shadowcaster returned to the party the next day and explained that though his ability to manipulate shadow magic may be currently weakened, his knowledge of it wasn't lost and still retains access to the mysteries he has unraveled. He can unravel even more mysteries as his strength naturally returns.

Basically he's saying that because there is no limit or specification of the amount of mysteries known per level in the text, table, or errata he can take advantage of the wording of the shadowcaster's mysteries progression of "gain one additional mystery every class level" and the lack of mention to even lose spells known in the negative levels/level loss entries of the SRD. No specific amount of mysteries known per level equals no loss of use of mysteries and can then gain more mysteries on level up.

I'm inclined to give him his way for the sheer novelty of the the whole thing and the group seems supportive of the idea. As the DM, with my near non-existent experience with shadowcasters, I just didn't have the ability to decide on the spot and can't predict how this could affect encounters down the road. Reading up on the shadowcaster makes it seem like it is on the weaker side, but do you have any advice for me or things to look out for?

[Crake]

It sounds to me like he was intentionally trying to game the system by losing levels.

Considering a shadowcasters spells per day are directly balanced around how many mysteries they know, i would definitely say that losing a level loses out on mysteries known, much the same way a sorcerer who loses a level loses out on spells known.

[Falontani]

Interesting problem. In the end depending on which mystery he chooses it's anywhere from 1-3 mystery uses per day, and allows him to advance up the paths faster. It's definitely a net gain and something to consider, but a wizard wouldn't lose a spell that they added to their spellbook. I personally would say to ad hoc some sort of penalty more than a cl penalty but allow him. Something like his last mystery learned has a cl check like precocious apprentice, or one fewer uses to a minimum of 1. Or perhaps send a creature from the plane of shadow (if your in Eberron, like a vampire) to talk to him about his "gaming the system".

[Crake]

Interesting problem. In the end depending on which mystery he chooses it's anywhere from 1-3 mystery uses per day, and allows him to advance up the paths faster. It's definitely a net gain and something to consider, but a wizard wouldn't lose a spell that they added to their spellbook. I personally would say to ad hoc some sort of penalty more than a cl penalty but allow him. Something like his last mystery learned has a cl check like precocious apprentice, or one fewer uses to a minimum of 1. Or perhaps send a creature from the plane of shadow (if your in Eberron, like a vampire) to talk to him about his "gaming the system".

Yeah, but a wizard also has an external repository, which can also be added to further without needing to resort to tricks like this, and can also be destroyed or stolen. Shadowcaster mysteries known is far more akin to sorcerer spells known, rather than a wizard's spellbook.

[Ashtagon]

This is definitely not rai. But the shadow caster isn't exactly t1anyway.

[Kalkra]

It's not RAI, but it is the oft-forgotten RAMS (Rules As Makes Sense). I mean, the player gave a solid explanation for why he should be able to keep his mysteries ("I got weaker, I didn't forget anything"), so if you agree with his interpretation of level loss and it's effects on a character, then it should work.

[Hellpyre]

Depending on how many levels he lost, it might be okay to let him keep the mysteries just to keep up with the party. But if you do, don't let him get extra mysteries leveling up again. He already has his choices for levelling up, he shouldn't get more until he exceeds the original level he had.

[Quertus]

Lol. Level loss is just dumb in general. A con 40 Wizard gets d4+15 HP/level, but only loses, what, 5 HP when they lose a level? And even an easy baked Wizard doesn't lose spells known when they lose levels. So, by RAW, he is correct, and it's not that much wonkier than any other level loss.

Balance to the table. Assuming that this doesn't throw him too out of wack with the table's balance range, allow it, and have a good chuckle. If it does imbalance him (in either direction), then bring up the… Silver(?) Rule… of Balance to the Table, and ask him how he would like to proceed in a way that brings him back in line with the party balance range.

[Troacctid]

Here's the rule in question (emphasis added).

The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable).
Mysteries are a special class ability, so they should be reduced accordingly. AFAICT it's up to DM adjudication exactly what that means, but whatever you rule, it should be consistent with how you would treat a sorcerer in the same situation.

[Darg]

Here's the rule in question (emphasis added).

Mysteries are a special class ability, so they should be reduced accordingly. AFAICT it's up to DM adjudication exactly what that means, but whatever you rule, it should be consistent with how you would treat a sorcerer in the same situation.

There is nothing to reduce except the spell>spell-like>supernatural progression, which is where his arguement had merit. Sorcerers have the spells known in their table. Shadowcasters like wizards don't have that and they don't have the gradual increase of "spell slots."

The party says they don't mind him getting extra mysteries this way so they want to keep the mechanic. We compromised that he wouldn't get the bonus feats and he could only add new mysteries instead of getting extra uses out of them. Luckily he can only get Apprentice mysteries which don't seem all that bad having a few extra.

Thanks for the input folks.