Healing Touch Cantrip Balance

[Garfunion]

Often wonder if it would be balanced to create a spell that allows a creature to spend its own hit dice in and out of combat. Especially with all this talk about short and long rest mechanics recently.
What does everyone thing about this?

Healing Touch

Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range may spend a hit die to heal themselves. The creature must have at least one hit point and hit dice to spend or this spell fails.

The amount of hit dice a creature may spend to heal themselves with this spell increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 hit dice), 11th level (3 hit dice), and 17th level (4 hit dice).



Also, just an FYI: We have a Homebrew Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design) for this kind of stuff.

I know but I kind of wanted this more as a discussion on healing spell with hit dice attached, instead of a critique on my cantrip.

[Sparky McDibben]

Often wonder if it would be balanced to create a spell that allows a creature to spend its own hit dice in and out of combat. Especially with all this talk about short and long rest mechanics recently.
What does everyone thing about this?

Healing Touch

Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range may spend a hit die to heal themselves. The creature must have at least one hit point and hit dice to spend or this spell fails.

The amount of hit dice a creature may spend to heal themselves with this spell increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 hit dice), 11th level (3 hit dice), and 17th level (4 hit dice).

I think that Nerdarchy did a great job on this already: https://nerdarchy.com/a-homebrew-healing-cantrip-for-5e-dd/

[kazaryu]

Often wonder if it would be balanced to create a spell that allows a creature to spend its own hit dice in and out of combat. Especially with all this talk about short and long rest mechanics recently.
What does everyone thing about this?

Healing Touch

Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range may spend a hit die to heal themselves. The creature must have at least one hit point and hit dice to spend or this spell fails.

The amount of hit dice a creature may spend to heal themselves with this spell increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 hit dice), 11th level (3 hit dice), and 17th level (4 hit dice).

hmmm, i have 2 issues with this.

1. its a bonus action. meaning that the cleric isn't needing to make a meaningful choice between healing and casting a different spell, thats really strong in and of itself.
2. the actual healing is really good: in fact its comparable to cure wounds (scales better on tankier people, but worse on less tanky people). and with spell slots being what they are, you may as well use this instead of them in most cases. and since combats are already fairly short/combat healing is fairly infrequent i think its safe to say this would be objectively overpowered.
3. now, similar to healing spirit, just because its overpowered doesn't mean its gamebreaking. i think it'd only really be game breaking for a specific style of game (and really, that style of game tends to limite HD more anyway, so it might not even be that bad in those.
4. this is, of course, all theoretical. so, theoretically i think you should try it out, although i think it'd be better to make it an action, so that its not as clearly a better option than cure wounds.



I think that Nerdarchy did a great job on this already: https://nerdarchy.com/a-homebrew-hea...rip-for-5e-dd/


hmmm, the addition of the clause 'the target needs to have 1 HP' is actually a smart one. definitely helps to balance it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Incredibly overpowered, do not let people heal off cantrips.

For reference, we have a spell that emulates short resting, one of the primary features of which is that you can spend hit die to heal. The spell is called Catnap.


Catnap, Enchantment 3rd level

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30ft
Components: SM (a pinch of sand)
Duration: 10 minutes.

You make a calming gesture, and up to three willing creatures of your choice that you can see within range fall unconscious for the spell’s duration. The spell ends on a target early if it takes damage or someone uses an action to shake or slap it awake. If a target remains unconscious for the full duration, that target gains the benefit of a short rest, and it can’t be affected by this spell again until it finishes a long rest.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can target one additional willing creature for each slot level above 3rd.
You may be surprised to learn that this spell is not very good, and only at its absolute best can it even be considered "extremely situational".

Your spell runs into several issues both compared to Catnap and other healing spells (as well as a thematic issue, which I will mark with an asterisk):
-It's a cantrip, so it costs nothing but your bonus action to cast
-It's a touch range spell with only verbal components*
-It compares favorably at most levels to a healing spell, the restriction that it can only be used on a conscious target with hit points isn't meaningful in my opinion.
-It fails to solve the main problem players associate with short resting, which is short rest recharging resources, not hit points and hit die. In fact, it may even make the problem worse by further incentivizing players to instead spend their hit die through this spell than ever taking a short rest at all.
-There's no restriction on how many times you can target a creature with this so given a very short amount of time you can get the party to spend as many hit die as they'd like.
-It's a cantrip that heals, which is a major design no no.

EDIT: Just to offer an anecdote of where this could be problematic, my Paladin has a build focused around short rest healing using Periapt of Wound Closure. The minimum amount that my Paladin heals off a hit die is currently 8 hit points, not insignificant healing if it was available as a bonus action. When the character gets Durable, which will be next level, the minimum will rise to 16 hit points. At the character level that would be (18) I could use a cantrip (or have an ally cast it if unavailable to my Paladin in some form) to heal myself for a minimum of 64 hit points. That's very nearly as much as Heal, a 6th level spell. Remember that's only the minimum, if I'm rather lucky and roll the maximum on each (just to set a range) then my healing could reach 112 hit points for the small cost of a bonus action. That's more than half of my Paladin's hit points.

[MaxWilson]

hmmm, i have 2 issues with this.

1. its a bonus action. meaning that the cleric isn't needing to make a meaningful choice between healing and casting a different spell, thats really strong in and of itself.

Casting a bonus action spell still precludes casting any other non-cantrip spells that turn, so the dilemma still exists.

[kazaryu]

incredibly overpowered, do not let people heal off cantrips.

-It's a cantrip that heals, which is a major design no no.

this is disingenuous. while i agree that the suggestion, as written, does have some kinks to iron out, its not just 'a cantrip that heals'. because that implies that its at-will. its not, there is an actual limitation to it, that being hit dice. which only come back at 50% per long rest. the core concept behind this cantrip is solid. it has pretty severe limitations to make sure its difficult to abuse. if you go with the nerdarchy version it can't be used to revive an unconscious ally. which means its either 1. a time saver out of combat so you don't need to short rest. 2. in combat healing. so if you go with (again) the nerdarchy version then it also costs action economy to perform. which further weakens it.

[JNAProductions]

It's better than I think a cantrip should be, but not to the point of being broken.

In other words, I'd not allow it at my table, but if I was playing with a DM who DID allow it, I wouldn't be particularly concerned.

Also, just an FYI: We have a Homebrew Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design) for this kind of stuff.

[Man_Over_Game]

Change Range to 15 feet.

Change Casting Time to Action.

Then I can see it work in real play.


Cantrips should be a last resort, not an efficient use of action economy through abuse of mechanics (looking at you, Booming Blade). Otherwise, you're just adding power creep rather than adding versatility (Power means you're doing what you'd normally be doing even better. Versatility means adding more options to do something instead of something else. Versatility = Good, Power = Bad).

As is, I could rock this as a Divine Soul Sorcadin and just demolish anything in my way.

[Garfunion]

It's better than I think a cantrip should be, but not to the point of being broken.

In other words, I'd not allow it at my table, but if I was playing with a DM who DID allow it, I wouldn't be particularly concerned.

Also, just an FYI: We have a Homebrew Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design) for this kind of stuff.

I know but I kind of wanted this more as a discussion on healing spell with hit dice attached, instead of a critique on my cantrip.

[ProsecutorGodot]

this is disingenuous. while i agree that the suggestion, as written, does have some kinks to iron out, its not just 'a cantrip that heals'. because that implies that its at-will. its not, there is an actual limitation to it, that being hit dice. which only come back at 50% per long rest. the core concept behind this cantrip is solid. it has pretty severe limitations to make sure its difficult to abuse. if you go with the nerdarchy version it can't be used to revive an unconscious ally. which means its either 1. a time saver out of combat so you don't need to short rest. 2. in combat healing. so if you go with (again) the nerdarchy version then it also costs action economy to perform. which further weakens it.

I would go for the Nerdarchy version but I have too many issues with this proposed version. I don't think it's disingenuous to call it a healing cantrip at all either because it's designed purely to heal, it's only function is to heal and it does heal you.

The Nerdarchy version has, what I would consider, actual meaningful limitations. There are even further suggestions to add to it, which I would consider even adding one more maybe even two, that's how much I don't like the idea of healing from a cantrip. If you're going to allow short rest healing to be done as an action (or bonus action) it shouldn't become a superior method to doing so.

[Man_Over_Game]

I know but I kind of wanted this more as a discussion on healing spell with hit dice attached, instead of a critique on my cantrip.

Not a bad idea, but understand that there isn't really anything in the OP that implies that.

I think there's a lot of good design space to use Hit Dice for healing. That's how 4e did it, and it had a plethora of ways of doing so (Spend my HD to heal you, Spend your HD to heal you. Spend your HD to heal someone else, Spend my HD to buff myself in combat, etc).

However, keep in mind that using Hit Dice is one of the few reasons someone might need a 1hr Short Rest. By having this Cantrip, it does sort of replace a big part of the game's mechanics.

One option you could do is a Catch-22 kind of effect. Range 60, costs a Bonus Action, but the target must be willing, and gaining healing from this cantrip gives them Exhaustion.

Or, target may sacrifice Hit Dice to gain 1d6 HP back per Hit Die spent. Just enough burst healing to keep someone going in the fight.



The last thing you want is someone saying "I cast X Cantrip 10 times". There should never be a reason for someone to do that, and if that provides some kind of mechanical bonus (like healing), then it needs to be adjusted so it doesn't happen. Cutting down on events like these (I do Y thing X number of times) also means you're cutting down on power creep. If they don't want to do it out of combat, they probably will have to really consider doing it in combat. That consideration, that thought process, is what makes games interesting.



Personally, though, I like the idea of making Healing Potions spend HD and adding a 1d4 to the total, or gaining an amount equal to a HD with no healing potion bonus if you're out of HD.

[kazaryu]

I would go for the Nerdarchy version but I have too many issues with this proposed version. I don't think it's disingenuous to call it a healing cantrip at all either because it's designed purely to heal, it's only function is to heal and it does heal you.


the reason its disingenuous to make the unqualified statement 'It's a cantrip that heals, which is a major design no no' is that your implying something that simply isn't true. the reason 'cantrip that heals' is a 'design no-no' is specifically because cantrips are free to use and unlimited. which doesn't apply to this cantrip. its not unlimited.

[stoutstien]

It would make for a better class feature for clerics to get at some point.

[ProsecutorGodot]

the reason its disingenuous to make the unqualified statement 'It's a cantrip that heals, which is a major design no no' is that your implying something that simply isn't true. the reason 'cantrip that heals' is a 'design no-no' is specifically because cantrips are free to use and unlimited. which doesn't apply to this cantrip. its not unlimited.

You can use it an infinite amount of times on different targets. It breaks from a balance point of view because it quickly becomes a very efficient method of healing and it breaks from a world building point of view because a handful of clerics can push an entire army back into battle so long as they aren't flatout dead.

You're creating a criteria where "it's not this kind of healing so it's okay" is somehow extrapolated from "cantrips should not heal". I agree with the designers when they say "cantrips should not heal" and this cantrip heals. It's going to have to have some major restrictions for that to be okay.


It would make for a better class feature for clerics to get at some point.
Somewhere at mid level (6-11 perhaps) where they can touch creatures allowing them to spend an amount of hit die equal to the clerics wisdom modifier (in total among all uses, not per creature) would be a good starting point. Make it a sort of parallel to Lay on Hands. I could see that being pretty fun, putting it as a cleric feature would prevent Divine Soul from potentially abusing it and pad out the clerics levels which many think are lacking in features (iirc gaining a new spell level in slots is given a lot of weight in clerics progression).

[kazaryu]

You're creating a criteria where "it's not this kind of healing so it's okay" is somehow extrapolated from "cantrips should not heal". I agree with the designers when they say "cantrips should not heal" and this cantrip heals. It's going to have to have some major restrictions for that to be okay.


no. you did. by citing 'design' you're the one that brought up the reason behind those design rules. i jsut fleshed out your reasoning and pointed out why its bunk.



You can use it an infinite amount of times on different targets. It breaks from a balance point of view because it quickly becomes a very efficient method of healing and it breaks from a world building point of view because a handful of clerics can push an entire army back into battle so long as they aren't flatout dead.


this is a very different line of reasoning than 'design'. and is, in fact a fair critique. i never said the cantrip was balanced as is, only that it was disingenuous to pretend that any lack of balance was due to the same reason that a healing spell didn't exist in teh first place.


a handful of clerics can push an entire army back into battle so long as they aren't flatout dead.

calling this out specifically, they already can. just give them the healer feat, or 1 part of the healer feat. you don't even need to give them any class levels, its accessible through racial features.

sure the opportunity cost is slightly lower than if it were just a cantrip, but we're not talking about a full on PC, we're talking about NPC's whose job is 'battle medic'. having the healer feat makes perfect sense.

[ProsecutorGodot]

no. you did. by citing 'design' you're the one that brought up the reason behind those design rules. i jsut fleshed out your reasoning and pointed out why its bunk.
The dungeon master's guide says "cantrips should not offer healing". Any attempt to decide what healing is okay is making assumptions. The only interpretation that doesn't assume is to take it literally, meaning that no healing is okay.

And don't make assumptions on my reasoning either, my opinion is that cantrips should not heal, full stop.


calling this out specifically, they already can. just give them the healer feat, or 1 part of the healer feat. you don't even need to give them any class levels, its accessible through racial features.

sure the opportunity cost is slightly lower than if it were just a cantrip, but we're not talking about a full on PC, we're talking about NPC's whose job is 'battle medic'. having the healer feat makes perfect sense.
The healer feat requires a healer's kit, which is a costly and limited component. A clerics ability to cast a cantrip doesn't run out unless they're incapacitated or prevented from doing so in some way.

Healer is fine, if your leader has spent a large amount of funds and resources on outfitting combat medics with a seemingly inexhaustible amount of healers kits that means the funds had to be taken from somewhere. There's still room for the fiction to support itself. With a cantrip like this existing and no real limitations on it (in the sense that other than the target not having an hit die left, it can be used indefinitely) then any sense of attrition in war becomes unrealistic. Just don't die at this battle and Felix the Cleric will give you a pat on the back and a pep talk and you'll be fit and ready to go. If you survive again, we'll swap you out for Dave so you can take a rest and repeat the process over and over.

[kazaryu]

The dungeon master's guide says "cantrips should not offer healing". Any attempt to decide what healing is okay is making assumptions. The only interpretation that doesn't assume is to take it literally, meaning that no healing is okay.

And don't make assumptions on my reasoning either, my opinion is that cantrips should not heal, full stop.

i didn't make assumptions on your reasoning. you gae your reasoning. 'design'. you simply left out the full context of *why* design was like that. i guarantee design reasoning doesn't really care about mass combat. since this isn't really a game about mass combat.



The healer feat requires a healer's kit, which is a costly and limited component. A clerics ability to cast a cantrip doesn't run out unless they're incapacitated or prevented from doing so in some way.

or the target runs out of HD, which, in the case of an army is going to be...after one casting. now if you're in a world where basic infantrymen have more than 1 HD, thats fine, but thats also an increase over standard. so the increased effective healing would be an extension of armies as a whole generally being stronger.


Healer is fine, if your leader has spent a large amount of funds and resources on outfitting combat medics with a seemingly inexhaustible amount of healers kits that means the funds had to be taken from somewhere. There's still room for the fiction to support itself. With a cantrip like this existing and no real limitations on it (in the sense that other than the target not having an hit die left, it can be used indefinitely) then any sense of attrition in war becomes unrealistic. Just don't die at this battle and Felix the Cleric will give you a pat on the back and a pep talk and you'll be fit and ready to go. If you survive again, we'll swap you out for Dave so you can take a rest and repeat the process over and over.

you assume that healing equipment like that would be as expensive for an army as it would be for an individual. which is...not how the world works. people are going to give discounts for buying in bulk. there's myriad other ways the cost ratio would realistically be lowered. (i.e. using a semi permanent setup with soldiers being taken to the medics rather than vice versa. a larger kit that carries more of whatever is the most limiting thing, etc.).

as far as attrition goes, thats already something that can happen. clerics can stabilize a soldier for free, and if you want to look at mechanics, that soldier can then be up and about the very next day and ready to go. all this would do is extend an individual battle. but since its something both sides can use it, its a wash. and really lets be honest, in a world where magical healing exists, trying to compare army level combat to the real world is...pretty difficult. in fact it'd probably be more comparable to todays combat than medieval combat. where we place a pretty big emphasis on rescuing injured/fallen soldiers. Because nearly all injuries can be healed nowadays.

[ProsecutorGodot]

i didn't make assumptions on your reasoning. you gae your reasoning. 'design'. you simply left out the full context of *why* design was like that. i guarantee design reasoning doesn't really care about mass combat. since this isn't really a game about mass combat.
I'm not going to assume to know exactly why the designers felt the need to say cantrips should not heal. That doesn't really matter, I can point my finger in several different directions and find problems with it so I just end up agreeing "yea, it's problematic for any one of these reasons, lets just say don't do it."


or the target runs out of HD, which, in the case of an army is going to be...after one casting. now if you're in a world where basic infantrymen have more than 1 HD, thats fine, but thats also an increase over standard. so the increased effective healing would be an extension of armies as a whole generally being stronger.
Rotate your troops and you can keep casting the spell on the same targets every day. Every kill on a mook becomes a major victory and injuries become meaningless unless you've chopped off limbs.


you assume that healing equipment like that would be as expensive for an army as it would be for an individual. which is...not how the world works. people are going to give discounts for buying in bulk. there's myriad other ways the cost ratio would realistically be lowered. (i.e. using a semi permanent setup with soldiers being taken to the medics rather than vice versa. a larger kit that carries more of whatever is the most limiting thing, etc.).

as far as attrition goes, thats already something that can happen. clerics can stabilize a soldier for free, and if you want to look at mechanics, that soldier can then be up and about the very next day and ready to go. all this would do is extend an individual battle. but since its something both sides can use it, its a wash. and really lets be honest, in a world where magical healing exists, trying to compare army level combat to the real world is...pretty difficult. in fact it'd probably be more comparable to todays combat than medieval combat. where we place a pretty big emphasis on rescuing injured/fallen soldiers. Because nearly all injuries can be healed nowadays.
Healer's kits don't materialize to meet demand (at least they shouldn't) if the army wants an amount of them that would support using it as a primary method of healing then it's going to cost a fortune even at a discount. Take in the time of production, the delivery of bulk to the battlefront and it's not all that realistic that it would even compete with this cantrip. The best case for Healer (which is a very good case from my point of view) is that it doesn't require a divine caster (I assume this cantrip is intended primarily for divine casters anyway).

The army example wasn't even meant to emphasize gameplay balance, I thought I was clear that my issue with that aspect came purely from a world building point of view. This spell risks breaking my immersion in the world because given all variables that currently exist, I don't feel that someone could reasonably be kept alive from all non-lethal wounds. This spell opens pandora's box, making an easily repeatable and near costless method of healing ripe for exploitation. Magical healing that exists now is very finite, you're not casting Cure Wounds on all troops, there just aren't enough clerics for that, but given this cantrip you don't need that many clerics and you offer comparable healing to your entire army. The army doesn't need to really rest either beyond sleeping each night, which is even more unrealistic to me, instead of taking time to recuperate and recover you form ranks and wait for Felix the Friendly Cleric to patch you up in 6 seconds or less.

[kazaryu]

Rotate your troops and you can keep casting the spell on the same targets every day. Every kill on a mook becomes a major victory and injuries become meaningless unless you've chopped off limbs.

not meaningfully different than just...letting them long rest. also thats only if 'injuries' don't also come with conditions that take more that HP healing to fix. which isn't something that mechanically exists (outside of optional rules) but does (or should) exist narratively.



Healer's kits don't materialize to meet demand (at least they shouldn't) if the army wants an amount of them that would support using it as a primary method of healing then it's going to cost a fortune even at a discount. Take in the time of production, the delivery of bulk to the battlefront and it's not all that realistic that it would even compete with this cantrip. The best case for Healer (which is a very good case from my point of view) is that it doesn't require a divine caster (I assume this cantrip is intended primarily for divine casters anyway).

thats....actually exactly what happens...if there's a demand for a product, production will increase to meet it. (thats assuming that production capacity is the limiter and not like, rare goods being required. but that seems less likely) any army is already delivering bulk products to their battle lines. food/water guaranteed. but they're also going to be delivering medicine, ammo, replacement equipment. point being that supply lines exist, and hampering those supply lines is a core part of war strategy. again, i don't see how this is meaningfully changes what you'd realisitcally expect to see in a battle.


The army example wasn't even meant to emphasize gameplay balance, I thought I was clear that my issue with that aspect came purely from a world building point of view. This spell risks breaking my immersion in the world because given all variables that currently exist, I don't feel that someone could reasonably be kept alive from all non-lethal wounds.

spare the dying already exists which prevents them from dying from HP damage. if you're talking about letting them rest for 1 day anyway, then this spell doesn't affect that, at all. all it does is make them last a bit longer before they need to take a long rest.



Magical healing that exists now is very finite, you're not casting Cure Wounds on all troops, there just aren't enough clerics for that, but given this cantrip you don't need that many clerics and you offer comparable healing to your entire army.

agreed. so? how does that meaningfully affect anything? especailly as you point out

The army doesn't need to really rest either beyond sleeping each night, which is even more unrealistic to me,
all they need is a long rest and they're right as rain, if you go based purely on already existing mechanics. the only impact this particular spell would have (in terms of mass combat) would be on how long an army could fight for in a given battle. and, in fact, with short rests being what they are it gets even more ridiculous. because as it stands, dude bro just needs to back away from teh front lines for 1 hour. (or 1d4 hours if they were knocked unconcious) and they can get back at near full HP, even without the cleric healing.


instead of taking time to recuperate and recover you form ranks and wait for Felix the Friendly Cleric to patch you up in 6 seconds or less.

you're already compensating for this. because as written 5e doesn't really have any kind of injury between 'hp damage' and 'limb loss'. such things would exist in the real world, and would be harder to heal. but they don't mechanically exist in DnD. as a result, short of limb loss, all anyone needs is a short rest to be ready to go again.

the actual fix to this world building 'plot hole' is to make mechanics for injuries. or, use the DMG's (optional) mechanics for injuries. either way its almost entirely unaffected by the proposed cantrip.


so ultimately what it boils down to is a narrative world building issue with you? or do you also have an argument for how it would affect day to day PC's? im curious to hear you're input, i just moved the other half to spoilers because alot of whats being discussed there seems fairly off-topic. obviously overall narrative stuff is too DM dependent.

[stoutstien]

Spitballing - what if it was a feat/class feature that allows spare the dying to have a limit healing effect based on using the targets hit dice? Maybe cost 2X as many dice if target is at 0 or limit based on con modifier.

[Theaitetos]

When you spend a hit die during a short rest, then you actually recuperate the hit die roll + the CON modifier. This particular cantrip lets you spend your hit dice immediately, but you forfeit the CON bonus for each of those hit dice. This seems like a fair trade for me, as you save an hour time in exchange for a (significant) amount of hit points. So I don't see a problem with such a cantrip.

As for "the army & world immersion": a level 3 druid can heal hundreds of people with Healing Spirit (a level 2 spell) for an average of 70hp per person. A level 9 Fighter (CON 14) has an average amount of 76hp, so he and hundreds of others – the entire army! – on the brink of death can be fully healed within a minute by ONE 2nd-level spell cast by ONE druid (or ranger or bard).

This cantrip however takes 6 seconds per person, so 1 minute would allow you to heal 10 people in total, each for an average of 6hp. The most you could do is to heal 10 of those fighters for 50hp each, once a day, and it would take you 9 minutes (then they're out of hit dice) of casting. This means that it would take your cleric 63 minutes (roughly 1 hour) to heal 70 soldiers for 50hp once per day. At that point you would either require a huge number of clerics to do that or simply let the hundreds of men rest for an hour and they would be fully healed instead of just 50hp.

What seems to be ignored is the fact that CANTRIPS ARE NOT FREE! There is an opportunity cost to pay, because there are other good cantrips. Clerics & Wizards start with 3 cantrips and reach their maximum of 5 cantrips at level 10. Druids & Bards & Warlocks start with 2 cantrips and reach their maximum of 4 cantrips at level 10. The sorcerer is blessed with 1 cantrip more than the wizard.

I always struggle with cantrips at character creation & level-up:
"Play a warlock? Eldritch Blast, duh! Leaves me 1 other? Hmmm, Minor Illusion or Friends or Mage Hand or Prestidigitation? Should I maybe take a saving throw cantrip if I'm in melee range? Toll the Dead?"
If you introduce more good cantrips, you have a hefty opportunity cost to pay. And to be honest, even if I were to play a cleric, I wouldn't take this healing cantrip unless the DM explicitly says something about this campaign being with few/no short rests per long rest.

Again, I don't think healing cantrips are op, especially if they are restricted in such a way as here and they make you pay a price by losing out on the CON bonus of spending hit dice during short rests (and the higher your CON, the higher the price).

[ProsecutorGodot]

When you spend a hit die during a short rest, then you actually recuperate the hit die roll + the CON modifier. This particular cantrip lets you spend your hit dice immediately, but you forfeit the CON bonus for each of those hit dice. This seems like a fair trade for me, as you save an hour time in exchange for a (significant) amount of hit points. So I don't see a problem with such a cantrip.
It's not a significant amount for many characters, a Wizard who was fortunate enough to roll very high on con might suffer a bit but most classes gain significantly more from the actual die roll than their constitution modifier.


As for "the army & world immersion": a level 3 druid can heal hundreds of people with Healing Spirit (a level 2 spell) for an average of 70hp per person. A level 9 Fighter (CON 14) has an average amount of 76hp, so he and hundreds of others – the entire army! – on the brink of death can be fully healed within a minute by ONE 2nd-level spell cast by ONE druid (or ranger or bard).

This cantrip however takes 6 seconds per person, so 1 minute would allow you to heal 10 people in total, each for an average of 6hp. The most you could do is to heal 10 of those fighters for 50hp each, once a day, and it would take you 9 minutes (then they're out of hit dice) of casting. This means that it would take your cleric 63 minutes (roughly 1 hour) to heal 70 soldiers for 50hp once per day. At that point you would either require a huge number of clerics to do that or simply let the hundreds of men rest for an hour and they would be fully healed instead of just 50hp.
If the argument needs to be made that healing spirit, arguably the most infamous spell of this edition, is "better" then I don't really give that much weight as an argument. Of course healing spirit is better, healing spirit is on record as a flat out mistake in design and is almost universally understood to be the strongest out of combat healing option bar none.


What seems to be ignored is the fact that CANTRIPS ARE NOT FREE! There is an opportunity cost to pay, because there are other good cantrips. Clerics & Wizards start with 3 cantrips and reach their maximum of 5 cantrips at level 10. Druids & Bards & Warlocks start with 2 cantrips and reach their maximum of 4 cantrips at level 10. The sorcerer is blessed with 1 cantrip more than the wizard.

I always struggle with cantrips at character creation & level-up:
"Play a warlock? Eldritch Blast, duh! Leaves me 1 other? Hmmm, Minor Illusion or Friends or Mage Hand or Prestidigitation? Should I maybe take a saving throw cantrip if I'm in melee range? Toll the Dead?"
If you introduce more good cantrips, you have a hefty opportunity cost to pay. And to be honest, even if I were to play a cleric, I wouldn't take this healing cantrip unless the DM explicitly says something about this campaign being with few/no short rests per long rest.
Most cantrips aren't actually good, introducing better options only serves the purpose of throwing the already bad options further under the bus. Strong new options make your decision easier, not more difficult.


Again, I don't think healing cantrips are op, especially if they are restricted in such a way as here and they make you pay a price by losing out on the CON bonus of spending hit dice during short rests (and the higher your CON, the higher the price).
I don't think that's enough of a detriment. It's a start, but as one of the only downsides of this version I just can't see it as enough.




not meaningfully different than just...letting them long rest. also thats only if 'injuries' don't also come with conditions that take more that HP healing to fix. which isn't something that mechanically exists (outside of optional rules) but does (or should) exist narratively.


thats....actually exactly what happens...if there's a demand for a product, production will increase to meet it. (thats assuming that production capacity is the limiter and not like, rare goods being required. but that seems less likely) any army is already delivering bulk products to their battle lines. food/water guaranteed. but they're also going to be delivering medicine, ammo, replacement equipment. point being that supply lines exist, and hampering those supply lines is a core part of war strategy. again, i don't see how this is meaningfully changes what you'd realisitcally expect to see in a battle.



spare the dying already exists which prevents them from dying from HP damage. if you're talking about letting them rest for 1 day anyway, then this spell doesn't affect that, at all. all it does is make them last a bit longer before they need to take a long rest.


agreed. so? how does that meaningfully affect anything? especailly as you point out

all they need is a long rest and they're right as rain, if you go based purely on already existing mechanics. the only impact this particular spell would have (in terms of mass combat) would be on how long an army could fight for in a given battle. and, in fact, with short rests being what they are it gets even more ridiculous. because as it stands, dude bro just needs to back away from teh front lines for 1 hour. (or 1d4 hours if they were knocked unconcious) and they can get back at near full HP, even without the cleric healing.



you're already compensating for this. because as written 5e doesn't really have any kind of injury between 'hp damage' and 'limb loss'. such things would exist in the real world, and would be harder to heal. but they don't mechanically exist in DnD. as a result, short of limb loss, all anyone needs is a short rest to be ready to go again.

the actual fix to this world building 'plot hole' is to make mechanics for injuries. or, use the DMG's (optional) mechanics for injuries. either way its almost entirely unaffected by the proposed cantrip.


so ultimately what it boils down to is a narrative world building issue with you? or do you also have an argument for how it would affect day to day PC's? im curious to hear you're input, i just moved the other half to spoilers because alot of whats being discussed there seems fairly off-topic. obviously overall narrative stuff is too DM dependent.
For both versions I think if there were more restrictions it could be brought in line to something not so obviously strong in my eyes. I suppose as far as worldbuilding goes this might just be a personal issue, although the idea did pop into my head that if such a spell did exist it would really start to put a much heavier focus on religion for armies, they would be putting a significant effort into recruitings chosen clerics into their ranks because the utility that this spell offers would cut massive corners in their expenses and combat readiness. Non lawful Clerics might have a tough time in a world where governments in most lands are seeking as many divine casters as they can manage.

It could be interesting at least, but I really think that the impact would be significant. We're at least lucky that Healing Spirit is locked behind enough of a wall (Druid, Ranger, spell slots) that it doesn't run nearly as much of a risk of warping the narrative.

[Theaitetos]

It's not a significant amount for many characters, a Wizard who was fortunate enough to roll very high on con might suffer a bit but most classes gain significantly more from the actual die roll than their constitution modifier.

You don't seem to understand. If you spend a hit die during a short rest, you gain hit die roll + CON modifier hitpoints back. This cantrip allows you to spend a hit die, but you gain only the hit die roll hitpoints back, you lose out on the CON modifier. Example on a Fighter 10 (with CON 16), spending all 10 hit dice:

Short rest: get 85 hit points back in 1 hour
Cantrip : get 55 hit points back in 1 minute

You save an hour in time, but pay for it with 30 hit points, which is a 35% loss in hitpoints compared to the short rest. How is that not significant?

Example Wizard 10 (CON 14)
short rest: 55 hitpoints
cantrip: 35 hitpoints
loss: 36%

Example Wizard 10 (CON 16)
short rest: 65 hitpoints
cantrip: 35 hitpoints
loss: 46%


Most cantrips aren't actually good, introducing better options only serves the purpose of throwing the already bad options further under the bus. Strong new options make your decision easier, not more difficult.

Eldritch Blast isn't really good? Neither is Chill Touch? Guidance? Mage Hand? Minor Illusion? Prestidigitation? Shillelagh? Toll the Dead?

I'd wager that less than 5% of warlock players in this forum would take this healing cantrip over one of their other choices? The same for less than 10% of wizards or sorcerers or bards or druids. Maybe some clerics take it because spell-starved clerics only have 9 cantrips to choose from anyway. And maybe a supporter takes it in one of the special campaigns I mentioned.


I don't think that's enough of a detriment. It's a start, but as one of the only downsides of this version I just can't see it as enough.

OK, let's say you're playing a Warlock (not a Tomelock, no multiclass with other cantrips). Which cantrips would you choose at which level, if you had this healing cantrip available?

[ProsecutorGodot]

You don't seem to understand. If you spend a hit die during a short rest, you gain hit die roll + CON modifier hitpoints back. This cantrip allows you to spend a hit die, but you gain only the hit die roll hitpoints back, you lose out on the CON modifier. Example on a Fighter 10 (with CON 16), spending all 10 hit dice:

Short rest: get 85 hit points back in 1 hour
Cantrip : get 55 hit points back in 1 minute

You save an hour in time, but pay for it with 30 hit points, which is a 35% loss in hitpoints compared to the short rest. How is that not significant?
I understood perfectly, for situations where an hour can't be spent on a short rest this becomes a better option than most other healing spells. Spending an hour isn't something you can just do all the time and without a meaningful cost (2 hit points per hit die for a 14 con character) they aren't missing out on much.

I'd actually have to see some statistics on where con modifiers fall for a larger sample size for a concrete answer but in my own experience Con has always been "get 14 and forget it". I don't see a lot of evidence to support that one or two hit points lost per hit die is going to absolutely change somebody's mind on accepting this healing.


Eldritch Blast isn't really good? Neither is Chill Touch? Guidance? Mage Hand? Minor Illusion? Prestidigitation? Shillelagh? Toll the Dead?

I'd wager that less than 5% of warlock players in this forum would take this healing cantrip over one of their other choices? The same for less than 10% of wizards or sorcerers or bards or druids. Maybe some clerics take it because spell-starved clerics only have 9 cantrips to choose from anyway. And maybe a supporter takes it in one of the special campaigns I mentioned.
Odd that Toll the Dead is your example instead of Sacred Flame, it's like Toll the Dead's introduction made Sacred Flame a bit less appealing. Not to say that Sacred Flame is a bad choice, but as far as damage is concerned Toll the Dead is a superior option and it shows.

You've also listed 8 cantrips out of 45. I said most cantrips aren't that good, not all.


OK, let's say you're playing a Warlock (not a Tomelock, no multiclass with other cantrips). Which cantrips would you choose at which level, if you had this healing cantrip available?
I doubt this cantrip would be available to Warlocks but if it was the answer is easy. Most off the time, this one and Eldritch Blast. I don't think Warlock is a very good example for this, Eldritch Blast already takes their number one and if they're a melee build Booming Blade and GFB are automatic contenders for number two. In cases where you aren't planning on being a melee warlock (or choose celestial) you open up a lot of options for that second choice, this healing cantrip would be a top contender.

[Kane0]

Healing Touch

Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range may spend a hit die to heal themselves. The creature must have at least one hit point and hit dice to spend or this spell fails.

The amount of hit dice a creature may spend to heal themselves with this spell increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 hit dice), 11th level (3 hit dice), and 17th level (4 hit dice).


I would make it an action and put in an S component. Also specify that it won't work on Constructs and Undead.

Edit: If you're worried about it being spammed just add in that a creature can only benefit from this spell once per short/long rest, or once per 24 hours.

[Garfunion]

I would make it an action and put in an S component. Also specify that it won't work on Constructs and Undead.

Edit: If you're worried about it being spammed just add in that a creature can only benefit from this spell once per short/long rest, or once per 24 hours.

I’m actually looking for more of a discussing on spells using hit dice not really a critique on the cantrip itself.
Although undead and constructs are still allowed to use their hit dice to heal themselves, so I don’t see any problem with the spell working for them. I’m also not worried about spamming, seeing as how you only have a limited number of hit dice to spend per day and they recover slowly.

[sophontteks]

Using hit die like this risks making things very difficult for short-rest classes, and may mess with the overall tempo. The party will want to just finish the chapter in under 10 minutes and spend the rest of the day at the tavern. Short rest classes will be alone trying to advocate for a short rest, and likely won't be getting many.

[Zhorn]

I've got mixed feelings about this type of healing.

On the one hand a healing cantrip should be considered a big no no
On the other having a way to use hit dice for limited healing is interesting and may be workable
But back again to the other hand is this cantrip cannot allowed to be too good as it can seriously mess up the draw of short rests between different classes and the healing economy of combat (resources spent to healing gained).
If I were to allow such a thing, these are the hard line restrictions I would keep in mind;
Casting time of at least 1 minute. If you are not spending a spell slot, it shouldn't be viable to cast during combat to recover hit points.
No CON modifier added to the heal, just the dice. This is a cheap heal using the body's natural capacity to heal, taking a rest should have a mechanical advantage over it.
One hit die at a time, no up-scaling per tier. This is still essentially 'free' healing, so the reliability of how many hit points it restores shore always be behind healing with a resource, be it spell slots or potions.
Touch only, no ranged casting.
Conscious and willing targets only.
Some of these were already included in OP's example spell and the discussion so far. But all of these would need to be satisfied for me to feel comfortable about a hit dice using healing cantrip in my games.

[Kane0]

Casting time of at least 1 minute. If you are not spending a spell slot, it shouldn't be viable to cast during combat to recover hit points.
No CON modifier added to the heal, just the dice. This is a cheap heal using the body's natural capacity to heal, taking a rest should have a mechanical advantage over it.
One hit die at a time, no up-scaling per tier. This is still essentially 'free' healing, so the reliability of how many hit points it restores shore always be behind healing with a resource, be it spell slots or potions.
Touch only, no ranged casting.
Conscious and willing targets only.
Some of these were already included in OP's example spell and the discussion so far. But all of these would need to be satisfied for me to feel comfortable about a hit dice using healing cantrip in my games.

So, would you use that as a player?

[Zhorn]

So, would you use that as a player?

If the game was in a hostile area where getting a short rest was difficult or we were getting a sufficient number of encounters between rests? Yes, conserving resources is important.
If the DM runs a 5min adventuring day and throws out rests like candy, or some variation of short rests taking 10min or less? No, I'd pick a short rest class a go for a nova build.

It's like with the Healer feat, the value you get out of it is very campaign dependant. Some things don't get picked not because of their own level of strength, it's just there is no need of using them.

[Witty Username]

I don't think this needs to be a bonus action spell, as a bonus action it will arguably be more healing than a healing word, it being more comparable to cure wounds. healing is not unlimited so the normal cantrip issue is avoided, also does not replace resting(unless you want warlocks to give you the stink eye). I think the scaling needs playtesting, since it will out pace low level healing spells but also the healing is still a fairly low number compared to monster damage output.

[LibraryOgre]

Often wonder if it would be balanced to create a spell that allows a creature to spend its own hit dice in and out of combat. Especially with all this talk about short and long rest mechanics recently.
What does everyone thing about this?

Healing Touch

Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range may spend a hit die to heal themselves. The creature must have at least one hit point and hit dice to spend or this spell fails.

The amount of hit dice a creature may spend to heal themselves with this spell increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 hit dice), 11th level (3 hit dice), and 17th level (4 hit dice).


I tend to agree; making it a bonus action cantrip is the breaking point for me. Make it an action, and it seems about right to me.

[stoutstien]

Could add concentration as a factor as well.

[MrStabby]

Give it a material component of a healing kit which is consumes,and it might work. Essentially it themes as a spell where you use the spell to enhance the power of an existing healing kit.