Star Wars nerds - Lightsaber duel tier list? (Film canon only)

[Zerubbabel]

Hi, I keep walking this through in my head only reviewing what we know from the 9 Star Wars films made (not including books or animations). Film canon only...

What would you shift?
Note: Old used to denote geriatric Jedi, else I've tried to use Padawan/Jedi Knight/Master to denote skill timelines of the Jedi. Sith are just sith, so not used.

Lightsaber dual tier list
S+
Mace Windu, Anakin (Jedi Knight), Yoda (young i.e. pre-series), Palpatine (true power/debatable)
S
Yoda (old), Palpatine (duelist), Obi Wan Kenobi (Jedi Master), Luke Skywalker (Jedi Master), Kylo Ren
A
Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Darth Vader, Rey (Jedi Knight)?
B
Obi Wan Kenobi (Jedi Knight), Luke Skywalker (Padawan), Qui-Gon Jin (Jedi Knight)
C
Younger Anakin (Padawan), Obi Wan Kenobi (Old)

[Anonymouswizard]

In terms of dueling, the best are pretty much Mace Windu (invented Form VII), Doku (most experienced in I think Form II, can beat two strong duellists), and Obi-Wan (the master of Form III). Anakin and Yoda are strong, but not quite as good.

Obi-Wan could probably beat Sheev in a lightsaber duel, but he simply can't compare to Palpatine's sheer Force power, especially as Obi-Wan seems to be more of a telepath than telekinetic. A light sided Anakin probably could defeat him, but Anakin is also much stronger in direct uses of the Force. Anakin probably would win of he was the same age as Palpatine and as such much more skilled than during the prequel trilogy.

Luke is probably the weakest Lightsaber duelist, with Kylo Ren and Rey a bit better than him, simply because he's having to use a home-taught style and doesn't have that many opportunities to practice. Notably it's only in RotJ where he defaulted to his lightsaber, in the previous two films he prefers his blaster (although he draws the saberstaffs readily after Yoda's training, so you could argue film and a half).

[Vinyadan]

For me, the best one is the one between Luke and Vader (V).

In general, I consider the ones in the original trilogy better than the others, because of a huge difference in sword handling. Lucas was originally adamant about the swords containing a lot of energy, so, when you were moving them, you had to put force into it, and you met resistance in the motion, and there was inertia. That's why Luke is constantly doing huge arcs, and only a half-machine of inhumane strength like Vader uses them with just one hand. Lucas later softened a bit regarding this.

Second, the duels in the OT have a narration to them. Those in the later movies are just "and now we watch these fellas dance around a bit". The only characters outside the OT who undergo growth by lightsaber are Boba Fett and Keylo Ren.

So Luke vs Keylo would be the best one in the ST. (I haven't watched the last one yet).

If we're going by mere showmanship, then (excluding the OT) the throne room battle in VIII would rank best.

So my rating is something like this (from best to worse):

Luke vs Vader (V)

Luke vs Vader (VI)

Ben vs Vader (IV) (although Ben's surrender is still quite puzzling)

2 vs Count Dracula (III): a nice turbostomp complete with betrayal, revenge, a compelling setting, and convincing acting by Ch. Lee. The whole rescue scene in III was very nice, maybe the best in the PT, pity for the lacking introduction if you hadn't watched the CW (the ones by the Samurai Jack artist).

Luke vs Keylo (VIII)

Keylo + Rey vs The Guards (VIII)

___________________

Then we have the less good/bad/unnecessary ones

Anakin vs Obi Wan (III): it's very, very long, at the end of a 140 min movie filled with other fights, it has a foregone conclusion, and suffers from the overall bad way character interactions and feelings towards each other were represented (Xanax jedi ahoy).

1 vs Maul (I) it's only bad because some scenes preparing it were excluded from the final movie, and because Maul is overall pointless (Ep. I tries to play two or three plots at the same time while hiding them, so many elements lack impact).

2 vs Maul (I) it's just choreography. It never feels like they are trying to kill each other, and who cares about those guys anyway. I also don't like ballets or SeaWorld.

1 vs Grievous: who cares about this guy? It's very sparky, but that's it. It does get a bonus for being the only comical lightsaber fight.

3 vs Count Dracula (II): the whole part on the red planet feels like an unnecessary, confusing drag. And Dooku is a new, extremely confusing character who may or may not be bad, and Ch. Lee is good at transmitting this. The question is, is anything different because of this duel? Are there stakes? If the duel hadn't happened, would anything have been different? And the answer is, no, not really. It only needed Anakin to be defeated, and not for the sake of this movie, but in preparation for the fight in III.

3/4/5 vs Palpatine (III) unsatisfying choreography, unrealistic jumping*, jedi used as chaff, and Mace Windu was an empty character anyway. Plus, Palpatine had to win. The part against Yoda wasn't bad, though (which shows how unnecessary Mace Windu always was).

2 vs Keylo (VII) it does have narrative function (for Keylo), but that's just not how laser swords worked in the other movies, which makes it the worst fight overall.

*in other movies, jedi use the force to make impossible jumps that still follow the direction they would have taken with their bodies. Palpatine takes a completely different spin, which is even weirder considering that he too will be defeated by gravity. While we're here, there's also another problem, which is that in the OT the strongest force users (the masters) didn't have a lightsaber. Yoda doesn't have a lightsaber, the emperor doesn't have a lightsaber. It's a nice visual reminder of them being on a different level, with the good Yoda being down to earth and the evil emperor treating Vader like a slave while exhibiting different powers. In the PT, instead, everything is resolved in combat prowess.

[Dienekes]

So I know if we go by outside material Qui-Gon was supposedly as good a swordsman as Windu. In the films though he gets beat by some Sith apprentice more interested in doing flips than fighting effectively.

In terms of actual technique, Kylo Ren is the one who actually moves like he’s in a fight and trying to not get himself skewered.

If we take the movie lore at face value, I think it’s fair to say the Republic guys were better, with Windu being a step above the rest. Windu is mentioned as the swordsman others are compared so I think he wins out. Palpatine and Yoda fight to a standstill, with Palpatine barely coming out ahead inconclusively. While Obi-Wan and Anakin do the same. They were evenly matched in skill at least until Obi played upon Anakin’s insecurities and get him to do something stupid just to prove he could. So even skill with Obi pulling ahead for having a functioning brain.

[Bartmanhomer]

What no General Grevious? :mad: He made be a droid but he's also a Lightsaber duelist as well.

[Peelee]

What no General Grevious? :mad: He made be a droid

https://i.imgflip.com/3kssc4.jpg

[Bartmanhomer]

https://i.imgflip.com/3kssc4.jpg

He's not a droid. So what the heck is he then. :eek:

[Anonymouswizard]

He's not a droid. So what the heck is he then. :eek:

Cyborgs. Under. My. Command! (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0466.html)

[Kantaki]

He's not a droid. So what the heck is he then. :eek:

A cyborg.
Hence the doggy bag inside his torso.
And his eyes for that matter.

Depending on which backstory you look at he either had a „shuttle accident” or wanted to fight like a jedi.(Or something like that. Never quite got the rewritten backstory.)

[Bartmanhomer]

Cyborgs. Under. My. Command! (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0466.html)

What's the difference between a droid and a cyborg? :confused:

[Peelee]

What's the difference between a droid and a cyborg? :confused:

A droid (short for "android") is a robot. A cyborg (short for" cybernetic organism") is part mechanical part biological.

Like how Darth Vader was a humwn with robotic limbs, Grievous was a Kaleesh with robotic... A lot more.

[Bartmanhomer]

A droid (short for "android") is a robot. A cyborg (short for" cybernetic organism") is part mechanical part biological.

Like how Darth Vader was a humwn with robotic limbs, Grievous was a Kaleesh with robotic... A lot more.

For some reason I feel like that droid and cyborg are the same thing. :sigh:

[Peelee]

For some reason I feel like that droid and cyborg are the same thing. :sigh:

OK, but they are not. Vader was a cyborg. R2-D2 was a droid. They were not the same thing.

[Bartmanhomer]

OK, but they are not. Vader was a cyborg. R2-D2 was a droid. They were not the same thing.

Vader was a cyborg?! :eek: I do remember that he has robotic limbs or prosthetic but I never knew he was a cyborg. :eek:

[Anonymouswizard]

OK, but they are not. Vader was a cyborg. R2-D2 was a droid. They were not the same thing.

I blame C3PO Human Cyborg Relations.

ETA: having artificial enhancements makes you a cyborg, I'm technically one via certain definitions (glasses)

[Peelee]

I blame C3PO Human Cyborg Relations.

Per the first movie, Vader the cyborg got cut zero breaks. His own men mocked his religion, his prisoner described him as leashed, the Rebels wanted to kill him, no respect I tell ya, no respect!

[Vinyadan]

Well, I noticed now that I completely misunderstood the question. I'm leaving the old post anyway, I put too much effort in it. The question here is what we mean by duelist. Mace Windu won a duel, but Palpatine won the fight.

So, on topic:

Prequels:

Mace Windu, Obi-Wan

Anakin

Count Dooku

Yoda, Palpatine

Darth Maul

Qui-Gon

...

...

...

Those Three Poor Jedi

The reasoning is simple, Anakin says that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Mace Windu, and he is defeated by him. In IV he says "I am the master now", which means that he was forced to recognise the superiority of Obi-Wan back then. Mace Windu is better than Yoda, because he can defeat Palpatine, which Yoda can't. Yoda and Palpatine fight inconclusively, and Yoda cannot have a rematch because of the new political situation. Yoda also doesn't defeat Dooku. Maul defeats Qui-Gon while they are one on one.
Dooku does defeat Obi-Wan in II, but that's an Obi-Wan who just went through a whole ordeal. The defeat in III could have been a problem of coordination with Anakin. There could also be a rock-paper-scissor relationship between the styles of Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-Wan.
Or Dooku was actually the bestest duelist ever, and only lost because Palpatine sabotaged him with the Force.


In the OT:

Palpatine, Yoda are assumed to be stronger, but don't use swords and thus are more-or-less disqualified.

Luke

Vader

Obi-Wan


A cyborg.
Hence the doggy bag inside his torso.
And his eyes for that matter.

Depending on which backstory you look at he either had a „shuttle accident” or wanted to fight like a jedi.(Or something like that. Never quite got the rewritten backstory.)

I guess he fought like a jedi on the low ground...

[Mastikator]

For some reason I feel like that droid and cyborg are the same thing. :sigh:

A cyborg is a dude who replaces their organs with cybernetic/bionic components. For example a person with a pacemaker is technically a cyborg. Still a person.
Count Grevious once was a normal dude, no metal, all flesh. Same as you.

A droid is a self driving car in the shape of a biped (often with a gun).
C3PO was never made of anything but metal

Not even remotely the same.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yoda, I think, takes top spot. When he shows up, Palpatine tries to flee, and Palpatine works very hard to stay out of his lightsabre range.

Mace and Dooku probably next, Palpatine is up here somewhere, but it's hard to tell where he falls on his list, could be above or below Mace and Dooku.

Dooku takes on Anakin and Obi together several times, and when Anakin finally defeats him, he's practically served him on a plate. Mace is supposed to be a peer of Dooku.

Obi Wan is next. Anakin relies on his power to get him through duels, he loses hard to technical fighters.

Anakin (ROTS) is close to Obi, not as skilled but more powerful.

Maul is next. He's a good fighter, but no match for the heavy hitters. Grievous is on a similar level.

Next, Vader, a veteran fighter, but made slow by his suit.

Luke is beneath him, but fast and powerful.He has quite good fencing form in ESB.

Kylo probably could be a good fighter, but he's much slower than the others and never got proper training.

Rey's similar, but does a lot of wild swings, she's fast and good at improvising, but doesn't have much technique.

[Anonymouswizard]

A side note, it's kind of next to impossible to place old Obi-Wan just going by the films. He doesn't do anything overly impressive, but it's arguable how much he wants to defeat Vader (again), and he manages to hold his own against a Sith Lord who's later shown to be able to keep up with somebody decades younger than him. He's also developed spiritually to the point where he doesn't seem to want to fight anymore, he spends most of his time on the Death Star avoiding conflicts.

However, having gone back and watched the duel again, Obi-Wan isn't exactly weak. He's not acrobatic or as mobile as he was in his youth, but Darth Vader can only hit him when he decides to transcend instead of fight, and even adds a spin in early on. Comparing it to the Luke versus Vader scene from ESB, Vader isn't actually moving noticeably faster but he is acting more aggressively, which makes a lot of sense (even with his old age Obi-Wan has far more experience with lightsaber duels).If we assume that ESB Luke and Padawan Anakin are equal in ranking, or more realistically RotJ Luke and padawan Anakin, than Obi-Wan is probably still just above them.


Another thing to note is that, in terms of raw skill, Obi-Wan might be above Mace Windu, at least if we're accepting novelisations. It's just that MAce Windu managed to essentially perfect a very powerful style that channels his suppressed negative emotions, the previous version of which was banned for being too close to the dark side.

[Bartmanhomer]

A cyborg is a dude who replaces their organs with cybernetic/bionic components. For example a person with a pacemaker is technically a cyborg. Still a person.
Count Grevious once was a normal dude, no metal, all flesh. Same as you.

A droid is a self driving car in the shape of a biped (often with a gun).
C3PO was never made of anything but metal

Not even remotely the same.
Well that's explains everything then. :smile: