What Character’s Backstory Was Replaced in OtOoPCs?

[Schroeswald]

So I just got On the Origin of PCs, and in it Rich says that there was a character who he wanted to tell a specific story about but decided that it was too spoilery so he replaced it with a different one, what I can’t figure out is whose it was. I highly doubt it was Belkar because Rich also mentioned not wanting to give him a backstory, and Durkon’s was incredibly important to his character so I doubt it was his either. No one else has had a story told in their backstory yet that wasn’t in OtoPCs, Haley and Roy have had just one very quick event each (Mia and Eric’s deaths), Elan’s was mostly just what Tarquin was doing, which I doubt Rich would have told in his Elan section, while Vaarsuvius hasn’t had any.

This means that whatever it is, it appears that one character has a major backstory reveal to go. Elan’s family is clearly out of the picture so I doubt it would be him, and I don’t really think that Roy has any skeletons or something (unless Fyron’s son was somehow involved, which I doubt). That leaves Haley or V, and of those I’m not really sure, Haley seems to have one secret remaining, but the Thieves Guild story seems a bit unlikely to get rid of, while V’s story seems easy to have been replaced, but I can’t think of anything that could be told in their backstory.

So any theories about this? Any quotes from author commentaries of books that I don’t have where Rich mentions this and goes “and this is where we see a story I left out of OtOoPCs” or something?

[Grey Watcher]

I don't know that it was "replaced" per se. More like just deciding exactly which slice of the character's pre-OOTS life to show. As in I don't think he even got to the "bullet point outline" stage. He had the bios of each character (to whatever degree of specificity) and looked at whatever and said "Nah, not yet, I want to use that for that thing in the main comic."

Let's go through some speculations, in no particular order:

Roy: The obvious idea here is that he decided not to include Eugene's info dump on how the whole Blood Oath thing started. The release dates are a little fuzzy in my head, but Rich might have wanted to avoid giving information about the Oracle. Or that Eugene blew off his Oath before he even died. The specifics behind Eric's death are another possibility (since it figures into Roy's desire as an adult to be a protector of the weak), but he might have wanted to preserve maximum surprise for Eric's appearance in the main comic.

Haley: I can't think of terribly much, honestly. Things like her mother's death or her earliest animosity with Crystal provide color and shading, but I don't know if they're enough to hang a plot arc on. Unless there's more to Mia than is readily apparent.

Durkon: Something involving his mother and family, of course. There's literally not much else to Durkon's life. And, as heartwarming as those scenes are, the only things that bring the kind of climax you need in a story arc are Durkon's learning the truth about his father's death and how his mother met all of her closest friends. And doing that all in a prequel book years and years before it becomes relevant to the main plot would've undercut a lot of the oomph of that sequence. Our own shock mirroring Durkon's and all.

Vaarsuvius: We haven't actually learned much more about V's pre-Order life since Origins came out. Only the existence of Inkyrius and the kids, really. While Rich has V mention being married fairly early on (the Dirt Farmer adventure), we don't get any details about them until the Black Dragon. Not as much reason to withhold this information as others, but also might seem a little arbitrary to bring up, since nothing much happens with it until a good ways into Don't Split the Party. So a scene of V leaving Inky in pursuit of ultimate arcane power might've been rejected for not really having any payoff. And no real tension, for that matter until we get to the Black Dragon anyway.

Elan: Unless there's some big thing waiting in the wings, there's just not much to Elan's life before the Order. He has a happy childhood, fun times at Bard Camp, and then bounces around between jobs until he runs into Roy. So, if there is something that would've been a spoiler, it's one that's literally in the final book, so... yeah, it would've almost certainly taken the wind out of whatever it is.

Belkar: Like you said, Belkar's lack of backstory is cited as being for other reasons, so it seems really unlikely.

Of these, Durkon seems the most plausible to me based on everything we've seen so far.

[Emanick]

I am pretty sure there’s a quote from The Giant about this where he responds to this exact question and says, basically, “I forgot.” He does have a couple guesses as to what it was, but I can’t find the quote in the Index right now, so oh well.

Actually, I just leveled up IRL, so let me try something real quick: Summon Banana V!

[Nith]

My initial guess would be Elan.

Elan's story starts with him as a herald for that Paladin, doesn't it? It's possible Rich's first idea was to include a small part of his very early childhood when Tarquin was still in the picture.

[Emanick]

Found the reference after all. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19164923&postcount=95)


Something I've been wondering about for years...

In the Introduction to On the Origin of PCs, you said "And in at least one case, I wasn't ready to reveal a history that will, in part, be integral to the main plot of Order of the Stick, so I chose a different scene from that character's previous life."

Given that we're now many hundreds of strips later, maybe that reveal has already happened. If so, would you tell us what reveal it was and what scene you decided to cut from On the Origin of PCs? My guess for the past year or two is that it was something related to Elan/Tarquin...


No, anything involving Elan and Tarquin would have been when Elan was a baby, which was not what I was interested in depicting. I'm pretty sure I was referring to Vaarsuvius' spouse and children, since the existence of the children were kind of a shock reveal during the black dragon scenes. But I could be wrong.

[Ron Miel]

This means that whatever it is, it appears that one character has a major backstory reveal to go.


Haley still does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html). "Oh no, it couldn't be THAT, could it?"

Still no reveal what THAT is. It may or may not be the thing the Giant left out, but it is certainly a bit of backstory that hasn't been revealed.

[Peelee]

Actually, I just leveled up IRL, so let me try something real quick: Summon Banana V!


Found the reference after all. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19164923&postcount=95)

You are become Banana.

Also, happy birthday!

[BeerMug Paladin]

You forgot to suggest Blackwing's backstory could be the integral, missing piece.

The Scruffinator doesn't count because he came later on.

[Emanick]

You are become Banana.

Also, happy birthday!

Thank you! I can know no greater honor. (That said, my birthday's in April. I chose to say that I leveled up IRL because I decided that it was so, not because I recently put another full planet-cycle between myself and the maternity ward.)

[Peelee]

Thank you! I can know no greater honor. (That said, my birthday's in April. I chose to say that I leveled up IRL because I decided that it was so, not because I recently put another full planet-cycle between myself and the maternity ward.)

.... Happy belated birthday, then!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or an early one! Whatever floats your trireme, navarch.

[RabidEel]

Found the reference after all. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19164923&postcount=95)

Well dang, I was sure after book six that it was something with Durkon and Sigdi. But that doesn't sound like the sort of thing you'd forget.

[CriticalFailure]

For some reason I didn’t realize V’s kids were a shock reveal.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it was less the kids being a shock reveal and more how crappy a parent V is.

[CriticalFailure]

Ah yeah that part was a reveal.

[brian 333]

Blackwing's introduction foreshadowed V's parenting style. V was shown to be unconcerned with anyone even if he was primarily responsible for him.

[Precure]

For some reason I didn’t realize V’s kids were a shock reveal.

Honestly, it wasn't a shock reveal.

[Emanick]

Honestly, it wasn't a shock reveal.

It shocked me.

[Precure]

It shocked me.

Shocking, isn't it?

[Peelee]

Shocking, isn't it?

Watt, that? I was pretty amped up over it, that's for sure. V's spouse especially was a real live wire.

[Jasdoif]

For some reason I didn’t realize V’s kids were a shock reveal.Well, the very first mention of Vaarsuvius having kids, ever, was as potential murder victims. (The next comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) goes into detail beyond their existence and targeting for murder; so the whole thing is like a variant of in medias res (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0551.html).)

It probably loses a lot of the effect if you already knew Vaarsuivus had kids.


Watt, that? I was pretty amped up over it, that's for sure. V's spouse especially was a real live wire....that's just revolting. Coulomb-o might charge you with battery and send you to a cell.

[Peelee]

...that's just revolting. Coulomb-o might charge you with battery and send you to a cell.

Ohm my! Imean, he's got that magnetic personality, sure, but I don't think that's how it works currently.

[Jasdoif]

Ohm my! Imean, he's got that magnetic personality, sure, but I don't think that's how it works currently.Alternately, he might just send you directly to jail, like a bolt out of the blue. It'd give you quite an arc.

[Peelee]

Alternately, he might just send you directly to jail, like a bolt out of the blue. It'd give you quite an arc.

I'd like to see the copper try.

[denthor]

V is a lousy parent proof positive of Male. This is the end of all debate on the subject.

[Ruck]

V is a lousy parent proof positive of Male. This is the end of all debate on the subject.

Women Be Shopping.

[Darth Paul]

I'd like to see the copper try.

I had something for this... about insulating yourself from prosecution, maybe? It was right there.

I need to start getting more sleep...

[Bedinsis]

So it was Vaarsuvius' scene that was replaced? Good to know my guess was correct.

I've earlier speculated(though I don't know if I ever actually posted it) that of the backstories told in OtOoPCs I found Elan and Vaarsuvius to be the most likely candidates to be the "at least one case" where the Giant didn't want to prematurely reveal information. The reason for that was that those backstories felt non-essential. Both are in essence "Vaarsuivius being Vaarsuvius" and "Elan being Elan". I could therefore see that the scenes in question was the replacement to something more substantial. Belkar also fits that mold, but since the Giant explicitly spoke of reasons not to focus too deeply on Belkar's backstory that didn't feel like a likely candidate.

Given that "Vaarsuvius has a mate" and "Vaarsuvius has children" was used as two separate surprises inside the comic and the OtOoPCs storyline doesn't mention them I thought that was information that would be hard to avoid mentioning if the story focused on a more essential part of the Vaarsuvius' backstory.

My speculation now is that the story the Giant would've told had he not wanted to keep Vaarsuvius' family situation hidden would've been how they were ousted from their master(Aarindarius? don't remember the spelling). The event is depicted in the comic but only as a recap, and it would fit with the pattern established by both Durkon and Elan, in that both their stories were about how the party in question had a normal life until a person of authority kicked them out.

Another thing that I think the Giant intended to do in the comic proper but was something he changed his mind about when the time came up was to have Durkon's grandfather be more important. He might even have played the role Durkon's mother played over the last book, at least in the flashbacks. I bring this up since by OtOoPCs it seems Durkon's grandfather was the person most important to him and his death was explicitly mentioned in the letter the Monster in the Darkness ate. Yet I'm uncertain if he was brought up more than once in Utterly Dwarfed.

[Synesthesy]

V is a lousy parent proof positive of Male. This is the end of all debate on the subject.

V is female, so not all lousy parent are male.

[Precure]

V is female, so not all lousy parent are male.

For example: Sigdi, both figuratively and literally. And Hilgya, maybe.

[hamishspence]

For example: Sigdi, both figuratively and literally. And Hilgya, maybe.

It's made crystal clear in Utterly Dwarfed that Sigdi is not a lousy parent. She's very charismatic, and Durkon is very conformist.

But that doesn't make her parenting bad.

[Darth Paul]

It could be argued (and I think Rich made something like this point) that Durkon's complete devotion to her was a large element in his selflesssness and lack of definition as a character. While a child might be so utterly devoted to a bad parent, it's more likely to happen in the case of an awesome one- like Sigdi.

In fact, Sigdi evolved to be a sort of matriarch/ mother substitute/ best friend/ all of the above/ to a huge clan, as we saw at the end of Utterly Dwarfed, who all came to her aid enthusiastically when called. Contrast this to Tarquin, the bad parent, who had to order his friends, make deals, and call in favors to get their help when he needed it, and whose family relations are all, in the end, based on power, not love and respect.

[Synesthesy]

In fact, Sigdi evolved to be a sort of matriarch/ mother substitute/ best friend/ all of the above/ to a huge clan, as we saw at the end of Utterly Dwarfed, who all came to her aid enthusiastically when called. Contrast this to Tarquin, the bad parent, who had to order his friends, make deals, and call in favors to get their help when he needed it, and whose family relations are all, in the end, based on power, not love and respect.

This is also a charismatic good character vs a charismatic evil character. Caring about other people is still a good trait, after all.

[Ruck]

V is female

Also not correct.

[Synesthesy]

Also not correct.

The fact is that we know for the word of the author what is V's gender, it only change how you call it in your culture. So arguing it is stupid, IMHO, and in the same time we can see V's gender (or should we say, V's sex?) whatever we see it.

My point is that saying that V is X because Y has no value at all.

[Sir_Norbert]

Funny, you would have thought, if that were actually true, then at the very least the Index of the Giant's Comments would have caught wind of it.

[Schroeswald]

V is genderqueer, we’ve seen Rich write in a book that it is so, it’s in BRitF, I’m just too lazy to find the place someone transcribed it.

[Dire_Flumph]

V is genderqueer, we’ve seen Rich write in a book that it is so, it’s in BRitF, I’m just too lazy to find the place someone transcribed it.

Got ya covered. Believe this is what you were referring to. From BRitF, commentary before 918:

"In this way, Tarquin is also symbolic of an older time when stories were likely to be more formulaic or clichéd—and less diverse. It’s no accident that he’s a wealthy old straight white man losing his marbles over the fact that the tale he is experiencing doesn’t focus on the other straight white man at the expense of the black man, the woman, the genderqueer person, and even the Latino guest star."

[InvisibleBison]

V is genderqueer, we’ve seen Rich write in a book that it is so, it’s in BRitF, I’m just too lazy to find the place someone transcribed it.

The problem with taking this quote to mean that V is genderqueer is that is also would mean that Julio is Latino, and we know that real world ethnicities don't exist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) in Ootsworld, so that interpretation can't be correct. It seems to me that the Giant is describing his characters using the real-world terms that most closely resemble their actual identities, not providing definite information about what the characters ethnic or gender identities actually are.

[Peelee]

The problem with taking this quote to mean that V is genderqueer is that is also would mean that Julio is Latino, and we know that real world ethnicities don't exist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) in Ootsworld, so that interpretation can't be correct.

Not necessarily true. We know Japan doesn't exist in Stickworld. I choose to believe that Latino people in Stickworld are from wherever Julio is from, and the etymologies are unrelated. :smalltongue:

[Schroeswald]

The problem with taking this quote to mean that V is genderqueer is that is also would mean that Julio is Latino, and we know that real world ethnicities don't exist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) in Ootsworld, so that interpretation can't be correct. It seems to me that the Giant is describing his characters using the real-world terms that most closely resemble their actual identities, not providing definite information about what the characters ethnic or gender identities actually are.
Ao? Tell me that the people from Azure City don’t count as real Asian characters or that Julio doesn’t count as Latino cause it’s a fantasy world and I’ll laugh at you, that’s how I’ll describe their ethnicities because that’s what they are, there’s no real difference between a group of Asian characters in I dunno, the MCU, and a group in OOTS in terms of what they’re ethnicities are. Also Haley is called a woman, does that mean this doesn’t definitely state her gender identity? Of course not, that’d be dumb. Also, if the closest real world term to V’s gender identity is genderqueer, then V is genderqueer, and V definitely isn’t male or female if they’re close to genderqueer than being male or female.
Also of the varieties of genderqueer V is agender, because that’s the most obvious fit.

[Emanick]

Ao? Tell me that the people from Azure City don’t count as real Asian characters or that Julio doesn’t count as Latino cause it’s a fantasy world and I’ll laugh at you, that’s how I’ll describe their ethnicities because that’s what they are, there’s no real difference between a group of Asian characters in I dunno, the MCU, and a group in OOTS in terms of what they’re ethnicities are. Also Haley is called a woman, does that mean this doesn’t definitely state her gender identity? Of course not, that’d be dumb. Also, if the closest real world term to V’s gender identity is genderqueer, then V is genderqueer, and V definitely isn’t male or female if they’re close to genderqueer than being male or female.
Also of the varieties of genderqueer V is agender, because that’s the most obvious fit.

I think this is basically a semantic distinction without much substance. Would Azurites describe themselves as Asian? No. Would Julio describe himself as Latino? Also no, probably (I can't rule out the possibility that he'd do so while making a Dashing Swordsman quip that broke the fourth wall). And maybe V wouldn't identify as genderqueer, either. As someone who literally does not usually pay attention to pronouns and "forget[s] about these kinds of distinctions," I doubt that hir vocabulary includes such a term (which, to be clear, is something I never thought I'd say about V).

All the same, I'd say that all of the above count as representation for said groups, because they're obviously supposed to correspond to them in the real world (at the bare minimum visually, if not culturally - I wouldn't argue with a Latinx reader who refused to consider Julio Latino because s/he considers the term a cultural one as well as a visual one).

tl;dr: Whether characters in the comic count as "real" Asian/Latino/other Earth-based-term characters largely depends on whether you're thinking of things in-universe or out-of-universe. We may not be able to use those terms to describe their view of themselves, but we can certainly use them to describe them for representational purposes when considering their real-world significance.

[Precure]

Also not correct.

Isn't "female" refers to someone's sex, not their gender?

[Emanick]

Isn't "female" refers to someone's sex, not their gender?

While I'm sure that's a view held by some people - opinions about sex and gender terminology vary enormously - it's frequently used to describe gender as well, including by entities such as the American Heritage Dictionary, the World Health Organization and GLAAD.

[KorvinStarmast]

N lkyhc hc bdrnchnfy.
I cheat at solitaire. The detailed scenes in which she did this, and why she did this, may well be what was left out ... and it will have an impact at the last gate! :smalleek:

[Aidan]

Isn't "female" refers to someone's sex, not their gender?

Not necessarily, but we also have not been told what either V's gender or sex is, so the distinction is unnecessary as it is information we don't have either way.

[Jasdoif]

Alternately, he might just send you directly to jail, like a bolt out of the blue. It'd give you quite an arc.I'd like to see the copper try.The blue would like you to see the copper try, too; on the off chance you might be prepared for acid instead of electricity.

[Peelee]

The blue would like you to see the copper try, too; on the off chance you might be prepared for acid instead of electricity.

Quit draggin' others into this and conduct yourself!

[Jasdoif]

Quit draggin' others into this and conduct yourself!Feeling like you've been orchestrated into being typecast?

[Themrys]

I think it was less the kids being a shock reveal and more how crappy a parent V is.

That didn't surprise me at all. It was perfectly in keeping with V's behaviour in the comic.

The only thing that shocked me was the black dragon attacking Inky and the kids. Up to that point, there wasn't any shock.

@Aidan: V clearly implies that s/he couldn't care less about what pronouns people use, which makes it pretty clear that V does not have a gender identity. So we know that.

What we don't know is V's sex.