Shadows

[Linearblade]

Is there a reason these critters don’t overrun the prime material plane and especially the shadow plane?

I’ve wondered this for years... it wouldn’t take long for these things to spread wildly.

I’m also trying understand how it’s even remotely possible in the plane of shadow.

It’s a shame, because adventuring in plane of shadow would be really fun if you could get around this little hiccup.

Anything I’m missing? Or ideas?

[Kayblis]

That same question can be asked of many things... Shadows, though, are deceased souls that drift in the material plane and others, they're not exactly inclined to reproduce or conquest in any common way. Standard Shadow behavior is to not travel far from its current location, lurk in the shadows and hunt for life in an almost animalistic way. Looking for the shadow in Libris Mortis, you see they have an inescapable craving for their diet of draining Str. They get less and less rational as they hunger, turning mor erratic and primal, until they can fill that need. You can imagine how competition sounds to an undead with such craving, so they tend to not band together a lot.

It's a case of the creature's habits limiting its danger to the status quo.

[Linearblade]

That same question can be asked of many things... Shadows, though, are deceased souls that drift in the material plane and others, they're not exactly inclined to reproduce or conquest in any common way. Standard Shadow behavior is to not travel far from its current location, lurk in the shadows and hunt for life in an almost animalistic way. Looking for the shadow in Libris Mortis, you see they have an inescapable craving for their diet of draining Str. They get less and less rational as they hunger, turning mor erratic and primal, until they can fill that need. You can imagine how competition sounds to an undead with such craving, so they tend to not band together a lot.

It's a case of the creature's habits limiting its danger to the status quo.

So to me, this sounds like shadows are more or less compelled to expand.

After re reading, they can’t bloat their numbers snacking on animals, but there’s nothing to say they don’t go find a large goblin warren or even human settlement and feeding off it. Even large numbers of clerics don’t reakly stand a chance, simply due to the numbers advantage shadows can quickly gain.

Unless they don’t always create spawn, I see this as some sort of viral epidemic in terms of expansion. Even if they don’t always reproduce , it’s likely they do when hungry. And assuming that hunger is measured in the days rather than years, it’s going to get out of control fast.

In the plane of shadow, the number of settlements bearing large numbers of clerics seems even less, and this plane would be even more screwed. (Which it appears to be , judging from limited encounter tables)


Is there a low cost solution to hedging shadows from an area? Say alchemical?

[Psyren]

The answer to most "why don't X in D&D" is deities and their churches. A shadow preying on a few people in a remote area can probably go unchecked after a while, but one trying to extinguish mortal life would ping on any number of pro-living anti-undead deities Portfolio Sense, and they'd work through their churches to get adventurers sent in to clean the problem up in short order, long before it becomes anything approaching a cataclysm. Even in a setting with remote deities like Eberron, various churches have still made it their business to actively hunt for threats like this, and a few divinations will uncover such a threat and dispatch adventurers to handle it before too long. Shadows have no defenses against metaphysical detection of any kind.

The other obvious answer is that Shadows aren't too bright, barely above animal intelligence and well below even the dumbest humanoids. Even regional conquest is likely beyond them, never mind global.

[calam]

I agree with Psyren, this is a situation which is solved by both the prevalence of anti ghost magic and roving bands of monster murderers. "A surge in shadow activity" is a perfectly acceptable plot hook for parties level 5+ (depending on how many shadows)

[Linearblade]

The answer to most "why don't X in D&D" is deities and their churches. A shadow preying on a few people in a remote area can probably go unchecked after a while, but one trying to extinguish mortal life would ping on any number of pro-living anti-undead deities Portfolio Sense, and they'd work through their churches to get adventurers sent in to clean the problem up in short order, long before it becomes anything approaching a cataclysm. Even in a setting with remote deities like Eberron, various churches have still made it their business to actively hunt for threats like this, and a few divinations will uncover such a threat and dispatch adventurers to handle it before too long. Shadows have no defenses against metaphysical detection of any kind.

The other obvious answer is that Shadows aren't too bright, barely above animal intelligence and well below even the dumbest humanoids. Even regional conquest is likely beyond them, never mind global.

I’m just not sure mechanically that it could be accomplished.

Suppose region x is savaged by disaster / war, leaving lack of resources to properly fight shadows.

Shadows expand and consume all residents in said region and now number in the thousands.

Shadows have an insatiable hunger, so they roam off, looking for more.

The mechanics for dealing with large numbers of shadows would require likely mode clerics than are readily available .

Given that clerics capable of destroying clerics are not trivial to mint, and shadows are the opposite , they quickly lose this fight.

There are no methods to readily deal with large numbers of shadows, (that I know of, but would be glad to know)

[Kantaki]

Snip

Well, if the situation in a area went bad enough that there aren't enough people left who can fight off a shadow (or wight or whatever) army there probably aren't enough people left to create/sustain such a army in the first place.

Unless someone did a stupid with large-scale death magic I guess.

Wiping out a city with a necromantic bomb or similar might lead to a sufficient increase in the local shadow population to create such a roving horde, but frankly?

In that case whoever is wiping out cities with large-scale necromancy might be the more pressing problem.

[Crake]

There are no methods to readily deal with large numbers of shadows, (that I know of, but would be glad to know)

A 5th+ cleric with the sun domain, glory domain, disciple of the sun, and extra turning can pretty consistently destroy a whole slew of shadows with their turning attempts, and a nice pre-cast of sheltered vitality will make them completely immune to the shadow's strength draining touch.

Toss in a rod of defiance in the mix, making the shadows count as 1HD undead, and a small squad of these clerics can absolutely annihilate shadows left and right.

[Linearblade]

A 5th+ cleric with the sun domain, glory domain, disciple of the sun, and extra turning can pretty consistently destroy a whole slew of shadows with their turning attempts, and a nice pre-cast of sheltered vitality will make them completely immune to the shadow's strength draining touch.

Toss in a rod of defiance in the mix, making the shadows count as 1HD undead, and a small squad of these clerics can absolutely annihilate shadows left and right.

So, how many of this type of cleric exist? How many shadows can they kill?


Can they do it 24x7? Because that’s more or less what they need to do

[Linearblade]

Well, if the situation in a area went bad enough that there aren't enough people left who can fight off a shadow (or wight or whatever) army there probably aren't enough people left to create/sustain such a army in the first place.

Unless someone did a stupid with large-scale death magic I guess.

Wiping out a city with a necromantic bomb or similar might lead to a sufficient increase in the local shadow population to create such a roving horde, but frankly?

In that case whoever is wiping out cities with large-scale necromancy might be the more pressing problem.

I’m not so sure on that. Let’s say small town has 5 clerics capable for destroying 200 shadows even. Failure to kill all of them results in the loss of that town.

Let’s say even, they can kill 500. Still seems very bleak.in the case of an outbreak of 1000 shadows.

Non cleric defenders fare substantially worse against shadows in fact feel more like a liability in many cases

[Quertus]

All you need is one creature a) immune to Strength damage with b) a magic weapon. So a single 3rd level Necropolitan Fighter with a +1 toothpick sword can solo an infinite army of shadows.

[Psyren]

There are no methods to readily deal with large numbers of shadows, (that I know of, but would be glad to know)

Assuming 3.5, even a 6th-level cleric can instantly destroy shadows with a single turning check. Assuming 14 Cha, on an average roll they can affect up to 7+ 6 + 2 = 15 HD, or 5 shadows per blast, 5x per day per cleric. In other words, a single cleric can take out up to 25 shadows per day, without even using their magic. This is also before items like Nightsticks, buffs like Eagles' Splendor, or feats like Empower/Heighten Turning, all of which anti-undead faiths could be reasonably expected to have, especially if a shadow infestation was becoming a problem - which again, they would unerringly find out about either from their deity, concerned outsiders, or just doing divinations on their own. And the number climbs drastically as more powerful and better-equipped clerics get involved.

I'm not saying a shadow infestation couldn't pop up and be disastrous to a sufficiently isolated or rural area. As calam said, it would be a decent plot hook for a low/mid-level party. But threatening the entire material plane is going to be well beyond such creatures.

[Linearblade]

All you need is one creature a) immune to Strength damage with b) a magic weapon. So a single 3rd level Necropolitan Fighter with a +1 toothpick sword can solo an infinite army of shadows.

Yep, and the shadows eat everyone else in short order

[ShurikVch]

The other obvious answer is that Shadows aren't too bright, barely above animal intelligence and well below even the dumbest humanoids.But they are not!..
Their -4 Int is the same as for Hill Giants, Ogres, Trolls, and Varags - who are, apparently, smart enough to don't go extinct in the death world which is your typical D&D setting
And while raid of Ogres is terribly unsubtle, Shadow - with their hate of any light - are prefer to strike... well... from shadows...

The problem is: considering the possible numbers of Goblins(/<insert random living low-level monster name there>) in a random dungeon, and how they're lacking in a magical support department, even a single stray shadow may cause shadowcalypse
Especially glaring there is the Plane of Shadow: it must have quadrillions of free-roaming Shadows, Greater Shadows, and Umbral Creatures. How the heck Plane of Shadow wasn't scoured from all life yet?

[Psyren]

But they are not!..
Their -4 Int is the same as for Hill Giants, Ogres, Trolls, and Varags - who are, apparently, smart enough to don't go extinct in the death world which is your typical D&D setting

There's a world of difference between "don't go extinct" and "conquer the material plane" :smalltongue: Ogres and trolls can't do that either.



Especially glaring there is the Plane of Shadow: it must have quadrillions of free-roaming Shadows, Greater Shadows, and Umbral Creatures. How the heck Plane of Shadow wasn't scoured from all life yet?

I mean, it mostly is? Very few living creatures can be found there.

But the Plane of Shadow is also VAST - infinite size. Even if there are "quadrillions" of shadows, they still might never encounter a living creature there. Remember, the Plane of Shadow is big enough not just to reflect the material plane of your setting, but the material plane of every other setting ever, and still have room for huge stretches of nothing. Infinity is a big number.

[Linearblade]

But they are not!..
Their -4 Int is the same as for Hill Giants, Ogres, Trolls, and Varags - who are, apparently, smart enough to don't go extinct in the death world which is your typical D&D setting
And while raid of Ogres is terribly unsubtle, Shadow - with their hate of any light - are prefer to strike... well... from shadows...

The problem is: considering the possible numbers of Goblins(/<insert random living low-level monster name there>) in a random dungeon, and how they're lacking in a magical support department, even a single stray shadow may cause shadowcalypse
Especially glaring there is the Plane of Shadow: it must have quadrillions of free-roaming Shadows, Greater Shadows, and Umbral Creatures. How the heck Plane of Shadow wasn't scoured from all life yet?

This is my problem too.

They aren’t dumb. Not smart yes, but definitely not dumb.

Further, the plane of shadow has been rendered wholly uninhabitable by them.

Barring cities with gigantic warding spells, tbis entire plane of existance becomes a gigantic trash can.

I’m willing to somehow suspend belief to a degree, but the math doesn’t add up on these, or any spawning undead, excluding possibly vampires as they seem to like interacting with their food supply (although in dnd, they don’t shrivel up / die from lack of food)

Shadows just get hungrier. And they don’t have the mental equipment to seek some sort of balance.

It’s tbis dumb but not dumb that makes them so deadly.

[Linearblade]

There's a world of difference between "don't go extinct" and "conquer the material plane" :smalltongue: Ogres and trolls can't do that either.



I mean, it mostly is? Very few living creatures can be found there.

But the Plane of Shadow is also VAST - infinite size. Even if there are "quadrillions" of shadows, they still might never encounter a living creature there. Remember, the Plane of Shadow is big enough not just to reflect the material plane of your setting, but the material plane of every other setting ever, and still have room for huge stretches of nothing. Infinity is a big number.

I kind of think of this like cosmic background radiation.

Yea, there might be dark patches (meaning places where shadows don’t exist) but basically shadows will follow suit with infinity and spread out too.

Suspending your disbelief is part of rpgs, but having trouble with this one

[Psyren]

I kind of think of this like cosmic background radiation.

Yea, there might be dark patches (meaning places where shadows don’t exist) but basically shadows will follow suit with infinity and spread out too.

Suspending your disbelief is part of rpgs, but having trouble with this one

I don't blame you, infinity is a tough concept to wrap one's head around.

The trouble is that while shadows can also expand infinitely, they can only do so where there are living creatures to eat. The plane itself meanwhile just extends forever in every direction whether there are creatures around or not. There isn't really a "catch-up" mechanism.

[King of Nowhere]

I’m willing to somehow suspend belief to a degree, but the math doesn’t add up on these, or any spawning undead, excluding possibly vampires as they seem to like interacting with their food supply (although in dnd, they don’t shrivel up / die from lack of food)

Shadows just get hungrier. And they don’t have the mental equipment to seek some sort of balance.


your math is wrong, as it relies on wrong assumptions. the first and foremost of those is that the shadows keep reproducing exponentially.
ok, sure, maybe they killed a whole city. a huge city. there are now 100000 shadows here.
but what are they going to eat next? there are no people left around. they can't really spread that fast. meanwhile, people will start fleeing, thus denying more fodder for the shadow army.
so, a shadow outbreak is not an exponential growth. it starts exponential, but it tops off once they run out of most food.

and remember that big army of 100 thousand shadow? A single high level fighter with death ward can cleave through them all in one day - less if he has reach. and he will cleave through them, as the shadows will sense his life strenght and converge to him. and if he ever gets tired, he can just teleport away and come back after resting.

Now, I admit shadows could pose a greater treath if they played it smartly. first thing is to make use of their incorporeality and hung underground, in solid ground. and use that to ambush people everywhere. and have them spread
feel free to come up with any kind of explanations to that. including altering raw; if we always followed raw, the world would be pretty ridiculous anyway. you can have shadows be gasous but not truly incorporeal so they canot move through rock, you can have them be bound to the place they were spawned, you can drop their intelligence a bit more so they cannot possibly coome up with that tactic, you can make them die if they don't feed often enough so that any shadow outbreak is quickly contained by the laws of predator-prey dinamics, you can do whatever.

[Linearblade]

your math is wrong, as it relies on wrong assumptions. the first and foremost of those is that the shadows keep reproducing exponentially.
ok, sure, maybe they killed a whole city. a huge city. there are now 100000 shadows here.
but what are they going to eat next? there are no people left around. they can't really spread that fast. meanwhile, people will start fleeing, thus denying more fodder for the shadow army.
so, a shadow outbreak is not an exponential growth. it starts exponential, but it tops off once they run out of most food.

and remember that big army of 100 thousand shadow? A single high level fighter with death ward can cleave through them all in one day - less if he has reach. and he will cleave through them, as the shadows will sense his life strenght and converge to him. and if he ever gets tired, he can just teleport away and come back after resting.

Now, I admit shadows could pose a greater treath if they played it smartly. first thing is to make use of their incorporeality and hung underground, in solid ground. and use that to ambush people everywhere. and have them spread
feel free to come up with any kind of explanations to that. including altering raw; if we always followed raw, the world would be pretty ridiculous anyway. you can have shadows be gasous but not truly incorporeal so they canot move through rock, you can have them be bound to the place they were spawned, you can drop their intelligence a bit more so they cannot possibly coome up with that tactic, you can make them die if they don't feed often enough so that any shadow outbreak is quickly contained by the laws of predator-prey dinamics, you can do whatever.


I have some problems with this logic.
Humans travel overland at 24 miles per day. If they are fleeing, they are also fleeing their food sources.

Having just done the math on what peasants are in the Middle Ages (which apparently was a lot), there is no way they would be able to support the food requirements the farther they walked.

Not to mention the other problems with low level commoners fleeing on roads and such (although, to be fair, in this scenario, predators are likely fleeing as well, to a degree)

Now, shadows move at 40. They don’t get tired , and they can fly though all obstacles. Meaning, even if the population flees, they are utterly boned.

As for the fighter with strength immunity. Yes, these heroes will individually be able to keep themselves safe. We can even say they are permanently immune for sake of argument.

But we can’t really say the shadows will focus him solely, because they can’t actually feed on him. Shadows are hungry for food, not hungry for battle.

So they will simply ignore him and get their lunch. Even if all in a given radius focus him and wait to be killed, the rest will move on Finding lunch and reproducing

The refugees will soon need to face resistance from existing settlements , oceans, mountains, predation from local wildlife etc.

Shadows face none of the above.

The only thing RAW that I see that stops this is the not so raw , but by raw rules epic spell.

And if so, I suppose that’s a fine enough answer, but I want to know what it is lol.

[liquidformat]

I have some problems with this logic.
Humans travel overland at 24 miles per day. If they are fleeing, they are also fleeing their food sources.

Having just done the math on what peasants are in the Middle Ages (which apparently was a lot), there is no way they would be able to support the food requirements the farther they walked.

Not to mention the other problems with low level commoners fleeing on roads and such (although, to be fair, in this scenario, predators are likely fleeing as well, to a degree)

Now, shadows move at 40. They don’t get tired , and they can fly though all obstacles. Meaning, even if the population flees, they are utterly boned.

As for the fighter with strength immunity. Yes, these heroes will individually be able to keep themselves safe. We can even say they are permanently immune for sake of argument.

But we can’t really say the shadows will focus him solely, because they can’t actually feed on him. Shadows are hungry for food, not hungry for battle.

So they will simply ignore him and get their lunch. Even if all in a given radius focus him and wait to be killed, the rest will move on Finding lunch and reproducing

The refugees will soon need to face resistance from existing settlements , oceans, mountains, predation from local wildlife etc.

Shadows face none of the above.

The only thing RAW that I see that stops this is the not so raw , but by raw rules epic spell.

And if so, I suppose that’s a fine enough answer, but I want to know what it is lol.

Isn't this the point of hallowed ground? Stopping shadows and similar undead plagues from instantly taking out settlements. From my understanding Hallowed ground is literally the undead bomb shelter of a town?

[Psyren]

The Shadow entry says nothing about spreading across the landscape in all directions seeking to reproduce though. Instead they "lurk in dark places, waiting for living prey to happen by." As they're immortal and their hunger is metaphysical rather than biological, they will lurk/wait for centuries if need be. The Shadow's 40ft. move is not actually relevant if no prey is within range.

And again, I think the far easier means of handling them than the Death Warded fighter is a level 6 cleric, who can poof dozens of them every single day with only a little optimization. Anti-undead faiths are likely to be even more well-suited to this task, and will be able to locate the shadows via divinations and employ tactics they cannot.

[Biggus]

Intermediate and Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, even if it only involves a single person. Greater deities' portfolio sense extends between 16 and 20 weeks into the future. Deities who oppose undead will sense any serious shadow outbreak as soon as it happens if not before, and dispatch their followers to deal with it.

Clerics who can destroy shadows while remaining immune to their attacks aren't that rare. According the DMG (p.137-139) a large town has a 50% chance to contain a level 7+ Cleric and a small city or larger always has one. They can cast Ghost Touch Weapon and Sheltered Vitality: if they become fatigued, they can cast Lesser Restoration. They don't need any special domains or feats: any Cleric can do all this.

A +1 ghost touch weapon costs just over 8,300GP. Presumably any largish temple dedicated to fighting undead will keep at least one in stock. A wand of Ray of Resurgence costs 750GP and restores 1 point of Strength damage per charge. A 1st-level Cleric can make one. A scroll of Sheltered Vitality is 700GP.

Put all this together, and it's not hard to see why any serious shadow outbreak is going to be stopped almost before it starts.

[Linearblade]

Intermediate and Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, even if it only involves a single person. Greater deities' portfolio sense extends between 16 and 20 weeks into the future. Deities who oppose undead will sense any serious shadow outbreak as soon as it happens if not before, and dispatch their followers to deal with it.

Clerics who can destroy shadows while remaining immune to their attacks aren't that rare. According the DMG (p.137-139) a large town has a 50% chance to contain a level 7+ Cleric and a small city or larger always has one. They can cast Ghost Touch Weapon and Sheltered Vitality: if they become fatigued, they can cast Lesser Restoration. They don't need any special domains or feats: any Cleric can do all this.

A +1 ghost touch weapon costs just over 8,300GP. Presumably any largish temple dedicated to fighting undead will keep at least one in stock. A wand of Ray of Resurgence costs 750GP and restores 1 point of Strength damage per charge. A 1st-level Cleric can make one. A scroll of Sheltered Vitality is 700GP.

Put all this together, and it's not hard to see why any serious shadow outbreak is going to be stopped almost before it starts.

I do like the deity intervention bit. One problem I see is this discounts any greater dietys equal ability to see the future. I guess we could go with “there are far more pro life than pro unlife gods out there”

As for tier 3 solutions to undead plagues, I don’t really see it as viable.

A sword can be swung at will, and against small outbreaks will be effective, but it can’t solve the “can it conquer a city in a day” hurdle. I would hazard a guess that sufficiently large numbers of shadows beget even bigger numbers of shadows rather quickly.

Even a cleric (or group of) with 20 daily turns and 30 blasting shadows might have trouble stopping a significant incursion. Especially if they fattened up on low magic humanoid tribes.


As for the “lurk In shadows and wait for lunch” vs hunting. We have to also remember that they do seem to hunt in packs (organization lists groups), and the libris Mortis motivation of insatiable craving, and the accompanying sidebar “handling undead hunger” implies that shadows eventually go beserk and go hunting.

So that’s out. It’s a 25dc will save and they make that every day. They are definitely roaming according to raw.

As written, it implies that given enough time, they will be forced to mindlessly assault, when they run out of food. This implies starvation is the best method to kill them. It also implies other food sources are removed (ie, now dead)

Some theory crafting here;
Are there spells that can be permanencied that bring down shadows?

Secondly what spells can be made permanent to draw shadows to them?

Example: brazier is undead bane. Mimics a big meaty full of life snack visible only to undead, any undead within the radius takes xdamage.

[Linearblade]

Isn't this the point of hallowed ground? Stopping shadows and similar undead plagues from instantly taking out settlements. From my understanding Hallowed ground is literally the undead bomb shelter of a town?

Not so sure. Magic circle stops summoned creatures. Not undead creatures.

I’m sure shadows don’t like it, but they can definitely go there and snack.

[Psyren]

I do like the deity intervention bit. One problem I see is this discounts any greater dietys equal ability to see the future. I guess we could go with “there are far more pro life than pro unlife gods out there”

Against an undead apocalypse, there definitely are. Think about it - while there are evil deities that love undead (Nerull, Urgathoa) and good ones that hate them (Pelor, Sarenrae), there are also neutral ones that hate them (usually deities of death like Wee Jas or Pharasma) and then there are the neutral ones that don't particularly care about undead most of the time, but will oppose the idea of undead swarming and devouring the material plane. For example, Shadows don't trade, so gods of commerce like Abadar or Waukeen probably don't want a shadowocalypse either, ahd Shadows devouring wildlife would throw nature out of balance and eventually destroy it, so nature gods like Obad-Hai or Gozreh would oppose that too. No matter how strong the deity of undeath is, they can't possibly hope to fight all of that head-on; they have to be subtle about it, and cause undead infestations more strategically to chip away at the other gods so that they can survive such a contest when the time comes. But because their plans for undead infestation are so gradual, they end up being easily thwarted by adventurers and churches.


As for tier 3 solutions to undead plagues, I don’t really see it as viable.

This is shifting the goalpost though - you asked why this doesn't happen in the prime material plane, and the prime material plane of every D&D setting has T1 and T2 classes, so "T3" solutions aren't needed.



As for the “lurk In shadows and wait for lunch” vs hunting. We have to also remember that they do seem to hunt in packs (organization lists groups), and the libris Mortis motivation of insatiable craving, and the accompanying sidebar “handling undead hunger” implies that shadows eventually go beserk and go hunting.

Being found in groups occasionally does not mean they go out ranging though. It's not like they take up space.


So that’s out. It’s a 25dc will save and they make that every day. They are definitely roaming according to raw.

You mean the one in the sidebar on page 10? That's a variant rule for PC-controlled undead, not RAW for shadows.

[Linearblade]

Against an undead apocalypse, there definitely are.



I can *mostly* buy this. It’s more or less believable. Perhaps undead infestations DO pop up with a somewhat reasonable frequency, and gods DO see it coming , and appropriate forces are guided into place.

It seems plausible and realistic.

It could also explain why the plane of shadow is an over infested dookie hole. Although it doesn’t explain necessarily why any cities on the plane of shadow are not infested with shadows, or why necessarily shadows aren’t constantly invading through it’s very pourous (and very raw) border with the prime.

If they were, it would be an unending and frankly unfavorable war on the prime.




This is shifting the goalpost though - you asked why this doesn't happen in the prime material plane, and the prime material plane of every D&D setting has T1 and T2 classes, so "T3" solutions aren't needed.



I think we do need to go there, as t3 solutions are tactical and don’t stop any macro invasions, unless the tier 3 solution is macro in nature (which it might well be, if the gods are directing forces enmasse to deal with the numerous extra planar incursions, or local outbreaks



Being found in groups occasionally does not mean they go out ranging though. It's not like they take up space.

You mean the one in the sidebar on page 10? That's a variant rule for PC-controlled undead, not RAW for shadows.

Deities and demigods is an entire optional book as well. I think to consider one, we must consider the other.

And seeing into the future is a paragraph, more or less the same as this.

Both are equally relevant to the matter at hand.

Ok, so we can assume that in any pantheon there are a preponderance of pro life dieties. Therefore through visions and the like, and perhaps the occasional epic toon or avatar deployment (and again this heavily favors the pro life crew), that the prime is rendered safe.

As for the plane of shadow, there is less of a desire to police it by the pro life , 1) because neutral gods won’t give two sharts about dirt where their followers tread but rarely, and 2) the good gods may also have less power here to affect the outcome. And 3) the evil dieties have more sway over this plane of existence , despite it being neutral, simply because it flipped undead long ago.

Sound about right?

[King of Nowhere]

I have some problems with this logic.
Humans travel overland at 24 miles per day. If they are fleeing, they are also fleeing their food sources.

Having just done the math on what peasants are in the Middle Ages (which apparently was a lot), there is no way they would be able to support the food requirements the farther they walked.

Not to mention the other problems with low level commoners fleeing on roads and such (although, to be fair, in this scenario, predators are likely fleeing as well, to a degree)

Now, shadows move at 40. They don’t get tired , and they can fly though all obstacles. Meaning, even if the population flees, they are utterly boned.



but the point is that the refugees won't run away forever. the moment a shadow outbreak of any magnitude happens, someone is going to cast sending, or some deity will drop a message. heroes will be called to fight it within hours at most. the world has a small but significant high level population that can move around freely by teleportation and communicate fast with sending and other spells, and i would bet that in front of serious catastrophe they would mobilize quickly enough.




And if so, I suppose that’s a fine enough answer, but I want to know what it is lol.
oh, you want to know a RAW answer to that?
then the answer is the same as for every other real or perceived inconsistencies: "they never thought about it".




And again, I think the far easier means of handling them than the Death Warded fighter is a level 6 cleric, who can poof dozens of them every single day with only a little optimization. Anti-undead faiths are likely to be even more well-suited to this task, and will be able to locate the shadows via divinations and employ tactics they cannot.
the fighter can poof thousands every day without optimization.
we all know how disadvantaged the martial classes are, but if there is one thing they excel at, is dishing damage continuously.

[Zeb]

A few applications of Celestial Brilliance (https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/celestial-brilliance--63/) really clears the place up. Put it on a light focused caster with a couple of doubling of light descriptor spells and you can really clean up.

[Psyren]

It could also explain why the plane of shadow is an over infested dookie hole.

Where on earth are you getting this from? Simply going to the Plane of Shadow won't get you immediately swarmed by trillions of shadows. In point of fact, you only have a 5% chance per hour of encountering anything there, and it will only be shadows 10% of that. In other words, 95% of every hour you don't meet anything and even when you do, it's only a 0.5% chance that it will be shadows at all.



I think we do need to go there, as t3 solutions are tactical and don’t stop any macro invasions, unless the tier 3 solution is macro in nature (which it might well be, if the gods are directing forces enmasse to deal with the numerous extra planar incursions, or local outbreaks.

I'm still not getting it. If it's a big invasion then churches/faiths are definitely going to use their T1 clerics and druids, and living wizards and sorcerers have no incentive to sit it out either. And even if it's something small, the clerics aren't going to just do nothing - they might rely on adventurers but they'll still offer services like enchanting their weapons or curing their strength damage.



Deities and demigods is an entire optional book as well. I think to consider one, we must consider the other.

Yes, all splatbooks are technically optional - but rules clearly labeled as "Variant" in sidebars are even more optional than that.



As for the plane of shadow, there is less of a desire to police it by the pro life , 1) because neutral gods won’t give two sharts about dirt where their followers tread but rarely, and 2) the good gods may also have less power here to affect the outcome. And 3) the evil dieties have more sway over this plane of existence , despite it being neutral, simply because it flipped undead long ago.

Sound about right?

See above - there's no reason to police it because it is mostly empty. It's infinite size makes it so vast that nothing there is going to pose an existential threat to the material.

[Linearblade]

A few applications of Celestial Brilliance (https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/celestial-brilliance--63/) really clears the place up. Put it on a light focused caster with a couple of doubling of light descriptor spells and you can really clean up.

The answer. Bam!

[Linearblade]

Where on earth are you getting this from? Simply going to the Plane of Shadow won't get you immediately swarmed by trillions of shadows. In point of fact, you only have a 5% chance per hour of encountering anything there, and it will only be shadows 10% of that. In other words, 95% of every hour you don't meet anything and even when you do, it's only a 0.5% chance that it will be shadows at all.


That’s every 20 hours, or about every day.
Average 10 encounters or 200 hours.

This essentially means anything living there without effective means to combat is dead (and that’s most things)

In other words every 8.3 days. Or 45 times a year. Anything living and vulnerable will soon be dead.



I'm still not getting it. If it's a big invasion then churches/faiths are definitely going to use their T1 clerics and druids, and living wizards and sorcerers have no incentive to sit it out either. And even if it's something small, the clerics aren't going to just do nothing - they might rely on adventurers but they'll still offer services like enchanting their weapons or curing their strength damage.



I’m only stating that tactical solutions won’t work to stop any large scale invasions without sufficient numbers to stop it.

I don’t think that tactical counters exist in high enough quantities, because shadows can mint more shadows with peasants

Player race counters involve spells / feats / weaponry / levels. Very hard to mint new forces.

Tier 1/2 solutions solve the shadow problem far more effectively (see apparently celestial brilliance, ie the shadow solver)



Yes, all splatbooks are technically optional - but rules clearly labeled as "Variant" in sidebars are even more optional than that.

we are trailing off topic and treading into potential trouble here, and the thread is so far great.



See above - there's no reason to police it because it is mostly empty. It's infinite size makes it so vast that nothing there is going to pose an existential threat to the material.
Motp foot note on encounter table notes states shadows and wraiths are non native. Yet comprise 14% of the (very small and more or less non reflective) encounter table.
It also states they are “non native” and have made it home. In other words, they are expanding faster than the other inhabitants, many of which are dark reflections of the prime plane. I’d say that is a strong indication that it’s become / or becoming shadow (and slightly less wraith) infested dookie hole.
Also, maybe it states something else in dmg , but under shadow inhabitants section motp, the plane has plenty of life , just alternate versions of regular flora / fauna. I’d argue this applies to the “shallow shadow” (ie: the areas close to the prime ) as opposed to the deep shadow where your presumably crossing planes of exist/ alt realities. I suppose those are mostly devoid of life.

1 encounter per 20 hours is hardly “rare”, especially considering you can’t see very far, so that also implies more encounters, only that you both “passed each other in the night” (literally, hehehe)

I said “police it” because, presumably there are living inhabitants of the plane, especially in the rarer cities, and presumably the good dieties would want to police it to some degree to kill undead and keep those cities safe. I would think also the plane of shadow as international waters. It’s defindtely the super highway to the planes. So keeping it mostly free promotes “trade/travel” etc , this is clearly more important in campaign settings where fast travel via spell is banned. Less so in settings where teleport is not, making all walking irrelevant anyhow.

[Psyren]

That’s every 20 hours, or about every day.
Average 10 encounters or 200 hours.

This essentially means anything living there without effective means to combat is dead (and that’s most things)

Two things:

1) Your math is wrong - it's 0.5% (i.e. one-tenth of 5%, or half of 1%) - not 5%. That's one encounter with shadows roughly every 200 hours, not every 20. In addition, those tables are for travelers, not locals (MotP 64). There's no reason to believe that locals have to run into shadows at all.

2) Even when you do run into shadows, you only meet 3d6 of them - not a trillion. Anything capable of planar travel should be able to handle even the max roll of 18, and the average roll is closer to 10.. Furthermore, encountering something doesn't mean it notices you or that you have to fight it, the challenge might be to go around instead.


Motp foot note on encounter table notes states shadows and wraiths are non native. Yet comprise 14% of the (very small and more or less non reflective) encounter table.
It also states they are “non native” and have made it home. In other words, they are expanding faster than the other inhabitants,

That is one heck of a leap. Given that their percentage (which is 10% by the way, not 14% - 67-76) of the table stays constant, there is no support for "expanding faster than the other inhabitants." I'd argue in fact that they must be a great deal slower since they have a built in means of propagation without gestation, yet still remain that small a portion of likely encounters.



1 encounter per 20 hours is hardly “rare”, especially considering you can’t see very far, so that also implies more encounters, only that you both “passed each other in the night” (literally, hehehe)

As above it's 1 every 200 hours, not 20. Otherwise I agree - and that applies to the locals too. Even in the rare instance it occurs, encountering shadows does not mean fighting them.



I said “police it” because, presumably there are living inhabitants of the plane, especially in the rarer cities, and presumably the good dieties would want to police it to some degree to kill undead and keep those cities safe. I would think also the plane of shadow as international waters. It’s defindtely the super highway to the planes.

No, that would be the Astral (i.e. teleportation and planar travel, as you noted). Plane of Shadow is more for jaunting around the material when you're not in too big a hurry or don't have access to the super highway yet.



I’m only stating that tactical solutions won’t work to stop any large scale invasions without sufficient numbers to stop it.

I don’t think that tactical counters exist in high enough quantities, because shadows can mint more shadows with peasants

Player race counters involve spells / feats / weaponry / levels. Very hard to mint new forces.

Tier 1/2 solutions solve the shadow problem far more effectively (see apparently celestial brilliance, ie the shadow solver)

If a single spell from BoED is what gets you on board then fine. I don't think even that is needed but you do you.

While "minting new forces" might take a while (training new clerics for example) I would wager it's still happening faster than the number of clerics who screw up and die to shadows, given that even a level 6 cleric can take out hundreds of them in a month, never mind a year.

[Linearblade]

Two things:

1) Your math is wrong - it's 0.5% (i.e. one-tenth of 5%, or half of 1%) - not 5%. That's one encounter with shadows roughly every 200 hours, not every 20. In addition, those tables are for travelers, not locals (MotP 64). There's no reason to believe that locals have to run into shadows at all.


That’s exactly what I said. But I may have been unclear. In any case, that’s a lot.

Every hour you roll. 5% an encounter. Therefore, every day 24 encounter checks. Or 24d20, with ones being encounters on a 1.
That’s 1 encounter per 20 hours.
10% of those encounters = shadows.
That means 20/.1 = 200.
Every 200 hours = encounter with shadows.
200 hours = 200/24(hours per day) = 8.3 days
Thus, you encounter shadows on average traveling through the pos once every 8.33 days.
365 days in a year (assuming the same calendar) = 44 shadow encounters per year.



2) Even when you do run into shadows, you only meet 3d6 of them - not a trillion. Anything capable of planar travel should be able to handle even the max roll of 18, and the average roll is closer to 10.. Furthermore, encountering something doesn't mean it notices you or that you have to fight it, the challenge might be to go around instead.

Possibly, except that you probably aren’t walking without a light source, even with dark vision. Imagine walking overland travel in real life with 60ft vision. It’s a minor point really, and gonna be totally dependent on how the dm runs the encounter, although I would argue that shadows are going to “see” almost everything

However, I disagree with anything capable of planar travel. 1) You can simply walk into a shadow portal. So even 1st level commoners can. 2) any native fauna is dead. (Which are stated to exist there) 3) even the counter tables list dire animals. Which would have zero means to fight them. In fact most of the non undead portion of that table would be wiped out by shadows.



That is one heck of a leap. Given that their percentage (which is 10% by the way, not 14% - 67-76) of the table stays constant, there is no support for "expanding faster than the other inhabitants." I'd argue in fact that they must be a great deal slower since they have a built in means of propagation without gestation, yet still remain that small a portion of likely encounters.


Actually, I stated here I was including both shadows and wraiths, (not stated: because they were non native to the plane)
Non native implies that the number started at zero.
It’s now 14%. This means shadow growth outstrips native growth.





As above it's 1 every 200 hours, not 20. Otherwise I agree - and that applies to the locals too. Even in the rare instance it occurs, encountering shadows does not mean fighting them.



Yes, I agree. Which is what I stated . Every 200 hours, or 1/8.33 days. That’s a lot.

Encountering shadows probably means fighting them, if they see you, or you are undead. They are shadows. And if it is played with optional libris mortis, very hungry shadows.




No, that would be the Astral (i.e. teleportation and planar travel, as you noted). Plane of Shadow is more for jaunting around the material when you're not in too big a hurry or don't have access to the super highway yet.



I guess this point is rather dependent on the cosmology.

Fair point.

Astral = express lane
Shadow = traffic jam



If a single spell from BoED is what gets you on board then fine. I don't think even that is needed but you do you.


As an example of a spell that can deal effectively with shadows, yes. It’s very good. Very little can actually hedge them effectively, and this does, albeit from a splat book.

It’s relevant, because this spell effectively hedges shadows. Most other spells do not. And I do not believe as you do, that most creatures and parties can ignore creatures which touch attack strength damage you and happen to be incorporeal.

Trivial for high level party? Probably. Trivial for even mid level or solo wizard? Maybe not so much
Deadly for non cleric parties? Very.




While "minting new forces" might take a while (training new clerics for example) I would wager it's still happening faster than the number of clerics who screw up and die to shadows, given that even a level 6 cleric can take out hundreds of them in a month, never mind a year.

Not so relevant, whats more relevant is how many can they take out in an encounter.

Takes at least 18 years to mint a 1st level priest. Somewhat longer for 6th level ones.

Takes under a minute to mint a new shadow.
There’s a lot of minutes in a year.

[Psyren]

That’s exactly what I said. But I may have been unclear. In any case, that’s a lot.

Every hour you roll. 5% an encounter. Therefore, every day 24 encounter checks. Or 24d20, with ones being encounters on a 1.
That’s 1 encounter per 20 hours.
10% of those encounters = shadows.
That means 20/.1 = 200.
Every 200 hours = encounter with shadows.
200 hours = 200/24(hours per day) = 8.3 days
Thus, you encounter shadows on average traveling through the pos once every 8.33 days.
365 days in a year (assuming the same calendar) = 44 shadow encounters per year.

Again, those tables are for travelers. No traveler should be spending days, let alone months/years, on the plane of shadow. The most common reason to be there is the Shadow Walk spell, which will have you there for a few hours at most.

The fact that there are natives on the tables other than shadows and wraiths means your assumption (that the undead would kill everything else) is clearly wrong. This means that for any number of reasons, the natives aren't getting killed by them and turned into spawn.


However, I disagree with anything capable of planar travel. 1) You can simply walk into a shadow portal. So even 1st level commoners can. 2) any native fauna is dead. (Which are stated to exist there) 3) even the counter tables list dire animals. Which would have zero means to fight them. In fact most of the non undead portion of that table would be wiped out by shadows.

1) A commoner can walk off a cliff too, that doesn't mean it's going to be a common occurrence. Shadow Portals on the material are pretty rare, and even the dumbest humanoids and animals would likely avoid them even if they did appear.

2) The exact passage says "The Plane of Shadow has native versions of many of the plants and animals found on the Material Plane, but the shadow versions are twisted, dark variants." They're not normal flora and fauna.



It’s now 14%. This means shadow growth outstrips native growth.

If that's true, why is there anything on the table other than shadows and wraiths? Your premise is faulty.

[Linearblade]

Again, those tables are for travelers. No traveler should be spending days, let alone months/years, on the plane of shadow. The most common reason to be there is the Shadow Walk spell, which will have you there for a few hours at most.


Is there a specific rule for that? (That they must be traveling?) if so that’s great.




The fact that there are natives on the tables other than shadows and wraiths means your assumption (that the undead would kill everything else) is clearly wrong. This means that for any number of reasons, the natives aren't getting killed by them and turned into spawn.


I’m not sure I follow? Can you elaborate? Seems they are in fact getting killed by them, or they are flowing in through shadow portals enmasse. This is a non native population of an infinite plane of existence, comprising 10% of all encounters. Another 4% from their wraith relatives .

That’s pretty significant. I wouldn’t expect any invasive species to take over immediately.




1) A commoner can walk off a cliff too, that doesn't mean it's going to be a common occurrence. Shadow Portals on the material are pretty rare, and even the dumbest humanoids and animals would likely avoid them even if they did appear.

2) The exact passage says "The Plane of Shadow has native versions of many of the plants and animals found on the Material Plane, but the shadow versions are twisted, dark variants." They're not normal flora and fauna.

1) i think it’s relatively hard to contemplate the motivations of everything , but we can have several concrete types of portals to the shadow that are described , and it appears it is relatively simple to travel to shadow.

2) As specified by the encounter table, these are known as “shadow creatures”. Page 190, no changes are made to the type. So basically still just regular creatures/Demi humans with some special ability.



If that's true, why is there anything on the table other than shadows and wraiths? Your premise is faulty.

As stated, Their numbers are growing. At this slice in time, they are at 14%. Invasive species do not replace native species immediately

As to why they have not exploded all over the plane already? Well, that was my argument for both the prime and shadow planes in the first place.

I suppose the same barriers to success exist In Shadow , albeit less firmly, that do in the prime

[RatElemental]

I imagine the local church is consecrated, letting any clerics just tell the shadows to go away with the +6 to turning checks that gives. And as soon as any horror of the night appears, I expect most of the peasants to flee to the church and barricade it.

And if the shadows get in anyway, they now have -2 to their attack, damage and save rolls, and anyone they do slay doesn't create a new shadow since you can't create undead in a consecrated area.

[Psyren]

Is there a specific rule for that? (That they must be traveling?) if so that’s great.

All of the MotP encounter tables say they are for "typical travelers," and the Plane of Shadow table is no exception. None say they are made for locals or natives.



I’m not sure I follow? Can you elaborate?

The Plane of Shadow in every setting has been around since the planes in that setting were created. If your hypothesis is correct, and shadows and wraiths are outpacing the living creatures there, then there should either be none left at all, or the percentage should be much more heavily skewed towards undead. The fact that this is false means there is a pretty big hole in your theory.



1) i think it’s relatively hard to contemplate the motivations of everything , but we can have several concrete types of portals to the shadow that are described , and it appears it is relatively simple to travel to shadow.

2) As specified by the encounter table, these are known as “shadow creatures”. Page 190, no changes are made to the type. So basically still just regular creatures/Demi humans with some special ability.

1) It's simple if you find such a portal; the vast majority of people won't.

2) That's not what the natives are. "Creatures found on the Plane of Shadow may be natives— lumpish creations made of the stuff of shadow itself in a hollow mockery of life." They were never normal creatures, even if their creature type matches that of the material flora or fauna they're trying to approximate.


As stated, Their numbers are growing. At this slice in time, they are at 14%. Invasive species do not replace native species immediately

You keep repeating the bolded assertion with no evidence of any kind. Again, the Plane of Shadow is not new, and in every single setting there have been hundreds if not thousands or even tens of thousands of years prior to the present day. Present day in Faerun is set in Shieldmeet 1372, and the Plane of Shadow existed for tens of thousands of years before that; every other setting behaves similarly. Where is your evidence of this growth?


I suppose the same barriers to success exist In Shadow , albeit less firmly, that do in the prime

So you agree that shadowocalypse doesn't and can't happen in either place then? Because if so we agree and can stop here.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I imagine the local church is consecrated, letting any clerics just tell the shadows to go away with the +6 to turning checks that gives. And as soon as any horror of the night appears, I expect most of the peasants to flee to the church and barricade it.

And if the shadows get in anyway, they now have -2 to their attack, damage and save rolls, and anyone they do slay doesn't create a new shadow since you can't create undead in a consecrated area.

That and the local church probably keeps a supply of Holy Water at hand for situations like this. Maybe even a couple scrolls or oils of Magic Weapon.
Even a couple of level 1 commoners have a decent chance against a few Shadows with that.

[tiercel]

Assuming 3.5, even a 6th-level cleric can instantly destroy shadows with a single turning check. Assuming 14 Cha, on an average roll they can affect up to 7+ 6 + 2 = 15 HD, or 5 shadows per blast, 5x per day per cleric. In other words, a single cleric can take out up to 25 shadows per day, without even using their magic.

Point of order: shadows have +2 turn resistance, which means “when resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt,” shadows effectively have 5HD. Clerics will have to be fairly high-level, significantly more optimized for turning, or at least have the Sun domain to reliably destroy shadows, and even then it’s going to be more like 3 per blast.

Your real red line against the darkness of the massed-shadow menace could arguably be Spirit Shamans, since their Chastise Spirits ability does straight no-miss-chance hp damage to all spirits (which includes incorporeal undead) in a 30’ radius. It does allow for a Reflex save for half, but a bog-standard 6th level Spirit Shaman is throwing 6d6=21 ave damage at Ref DC ~18, which destroys 65% of all shadows within 30’, and the remaining shadows within range are now wounded and a lot easier to finish with holy water, magic weapon, or simply remaining in range of a second Chastise Spirits.

[Linearblade]

All of the MotP encounter tables say they are for "typical travelers," and the Plane of Shadow table is no exception. None say they are made for locals or natives.



The Plane of Shadow in every setting has been around since the planes in that setting were created. If your hypothesis is correct, and shadows and wraiths are outpacing the living creatures there, then there should either be none left at all, or the percentage should be much more heavily skewed towards undead. The fact that this is false means there is a pretty big hole in your theory.


Nonsense. A simple reading of stock chart with higher highs and higher lows defeats that argument.

I can’t explain “non native, therefore population at t-0 , and is now t(present) far greater than zero” any more simply.

That is the definition of growth over time



1) It's simple if you find such a portal; the vast majority of people won't.


It’s stated the most common method is via shadow walk. For the portals, it’s ststed the frequency is unknown.

Extrapolating vast majority is your interpretation


2) That's not what the natives are. "Creatures found on the Plane of Shadow may be natives— lumpish creations made of the stuff of shadow itself in a hollow mockery of life." They were never normal creatures, even if their creature type matches that of the material flora or fauna they're trying to approximate.



It’s stkll an animal, albeit lumpy.


You keep repeating the bolded assertion with no evidence of any kind. Again, the Plane of Shadow is not new, and in every single setting there have been hundreds if not thousands or even tens of thousands of years prior to the present day. Present day in Faerun is set in Shieldmeet 1372, and the Plane of Shadow existed for tens of thousands of years before that; every other setting behaves similarly. Where is your evidence of this growth?


In the foot note below the table.
*Nonnative, but have found their way onto the Plane of Shadow and made it their home. †Trading mission consists of four mercanes with a pack of 3d4 shadow mastiffs. ‡Apply the shadow creature template.



So you agree that shadowocalypse doesn't and can't happen in either place then? Because if so we agree and can stop here.

I’m not really satisfied with the solution, but it’s at least plausible for the prime plane.

I am attempting to wrap it around the plane of shadow, in that less presence = loss of coalition from uninterested gods = the reverse of the prime plane.

In that sense, it works.

[Linearblade]

Point of order: shadows have +2 turn resistance, which means “when resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt,” shadows effectively have 5HD. Clerics will have to be fairly high-level, significantly more optimized for turning, or at least have the Sun domain to reliably destroy shadows, and even then it’s going to be more like 3 per blast.

Your real red line against the darkness of the massed-shadow menace could arguably be Spirit Shamans, since their Chastise Spirits ability does straight no-miss-chance hp damage to all spirits (which includes incorporeal undead) in a 30’ radius. It does allow for a Reflex save for half, but a bog-standard 6th level Spirit Shaman is throwing 6d6=21 ave damage at Ref DC ~18, which destroys 65% of all shadows within 30’, and the remaining shadows within range are now wounded and a lot easier to finish with holy water, magic weapon, or simply remaining in range of a second Chastise Spirits.

These solutions work. But the class required is limited in scope. In a campaign world where they are common, it is a much more realistic and effective solution.

[Psyren]

Nonsense. A simple reading of stock chart with higher highs and higher lows defeats that argument.

I can’t explain “non native, therefore population at t-0 , and is now t(present) far greater than zero” any more simply.

That is the definition of growth over time.

So no evidence then?

Because even if your unsupported hypothesis were correct, what you're failing to grasp is that this is an infinite plane. Even if the shadows grow infinitely themselves, the percentage chance of anyone running into one does not need to change - and by RAW, it doesn't.

When you find some evidence for your assertions, let me know, until then I'm good here.

[tiercel]

These solutions work. But the class required is limited in scope. In a campaign world where they are common, it is a much more realistic and effective solution.

I would agree that in most campaign worlds, spirit shamans are very probably not more common than clerics. That said, they don’t have to be — they just have to be even similarly common as clerics with the Sun domain.

In a world with a church of Pelor, that might not be a given, but all spirit shamans vs one particular major church order of clerics at least potentially doesn’t seem like a completely lopsided numerical comparison.

[Zombimode]

Lineablade: your "shadow problem" is self-made. You perceive a problem because you assume shadows follow certain behaviour patterns that actually contradict the stated behaviour pattern of shadows: "Shadows lurk in dark places, waiting for living prey to happen by."

In any case take a published setting that has a plane of shadow, like the Forgotten Realms.

From the setting description we know (as a hard fact) that there is no active shadowcalypse. Maybe Deities/organisation are fighting constantly to stem the shadow tide. But since nothing in the published works about the setting indicates that fighting against the shadow tide is indeed a thing (not talking about isolated cases of course), it probably isn't a thing.

So, on the one hand you have a type of creature that, from their abilities alone, could be a planar wide threat.
And on the other hand you know form the setting description that shadows aren't this threat. And if you demand an explanation for why that is, accepting the stated behaviour pattern (that they don't actively seek out living things) is pretty much all you need.

If you demand further explanation, we kind of leave the realm of naturalistic causality (at least at first) and have to consider narrative causality. From the setting material we know that the Forgotten Realms is not a setting about the big conflict of the living things vs. the shadows. The setting features a vast number of other conflicts and thus is set up in a way that those conflicts are supported and a shadowcalypse isn't.

But that doesn't mean that the Forgotten Realms can't support such a conflict: what if some long-forgotten shadow god kills Shar and suddenly all shadows change their behaviour to actively seek out living beings!
A new threat, a disaster and, most importantly, a campaing premise :smallsmile:

[Clementx]

Another solution is there is a natural unlife cycle affecting shadows not spelled out in the rules. Perhaps shadows migrate out of the PoS away from living creatures. If they fill up the infinite space that does not mirror another plane, no one will find them. To take a cue from The First Law novels, maybe ambient shadow lifedrain is what sterilizes outer space/planes, being undead cosmic radiation. Alternatively, they all end up in Orcus's layer of the Abyss.

Another issue with most spawning undead (except vampires) is the default assumption is that the spawn are equally "fertile" and immortal. If they cannot chain spawn or only last a period of time longer than an encounter, their CR doesn't change but the metaphysical problems vanish. Less requirement for theological crusades if you decide the spawn issue is merely a poorly-worded monster ability.