How to make the assassin archtype not suck?

[Jarlaxle83]

Sooo I am in a campaign and my rogue hit lvl 3! So I was excited to pick my archtype. I had my eyes on the assassin, I read the rules but guess I didn't understand them very well. I thought if the first round of combat and I hadn't been seen yet I could autocrit and that I had advantage on any enemy that goes after me in combat... Sounds great!!!! So I picked it to find out the autocrit only works in a surprise round...(which I still don't understand how an enemy that you don't know is there shooting you with a arrow didn't constitute a "surprise" I personally would be very surprised if I was in intense combat with someone and a arrow slams into my throat) Which does not happen very often at all in this campaign and the advantage only works on the very first round of combat and I'm not allowed to change it up.
So my question is how do I salvage this??? Is there a way to make this archtype not worthless? Btw my race is changeling so the fake identity skill is only moderately useful.

[sithlordnergal]

Honestly, my only suggestion is ask if you can choose a different subclass. Assassin is, in my personal opinion, the weakest Rogue subclass in the game because its "big thing" focuses on Surprise. I have only seen players successfully Surprise an enemy twice in my 4 years of playing 5e, both as a DM and as a player. If your DM says no, ask if you can make a single, simple change to the Assassin. Either:


A) Allow the auto-crit to happen whenever you go before someone in the first round of combat

or

B) Allow your sneak attack damage to do some extra damage on a crit, similar to a Half-Orc's Brutal Critical feature, only have it scale. So 1 extra d6 from levels 1-4, 2d6 from 5-10, 3d6 from 11-15, 4d6 from 16-19, and maybe 5d6 at level 20. That would make your crits far deadlier, and give you more of an assassin-y feel.

[Jerrykhor]

You can pick another Rogue subclass, but your character's background is an Assassin. Or are you dead set on playing the Assassin subclass?

If you are, when you reach level4 pick Alert feat. Its a must have for Assassin.

Understand the rules for Surprise. Discuss this with your DM, make sure they also understand how Surprise works by RAW. If they use the term 'Surprise round', its very likely they don't. Surprise is a status, creatures can be surprised only in the 1st round, once their turn ends, they are no longer surprised. If you are last in the initiative order, even if every single creature was surprised, they are no longer surprised when your turn comes.

But yes, you are right. Assassin sucks because Surprise is 100% determined by DM. In my experience, most DMs don't let their monsters be surprised easily. This is even when they in narrative described their creatures as 'look surprised to see your party', but mechanically they are still not surprised.

[sithlordnergal]

But yes, you are right. Assassin sucks because Surprise is 100% determined by DM. In my experience, most DMs don't let their monsters be surprised easily. This is even when they in narrative described their creatures as 'look surprised to see your party', but mechanically they are still not surprised.

Its not just the DM, the party determines Surprise as well. Case in point, I once played with an Assassin in the party while playing a Paladin...we tried to Surprise a Rock Giant. Said Giant didn't know we were there at first, but then the DM called for stealth rolls and everyone except the Rogue got about a 6 or a 7, and I got a 0 because of 8 Dex. We alerted the Stone Giant, and removed any chance of it being Surprised.

Or there were times when the Assassin wanted to try and assassinate one person, but others wanted to talk to the target instead to smooth things over peacefully. Surprise went out the window once players spoke up and alerted the target that we were there. Ambushes done by players are difficult to pull off because you need the entire party to work together to assassinate someone, which rarely happens in my experience.

[carrdrivesyou]

One of my groups actually debated this a bit. Given typical games, the arcane trickster can basically replicate or exceed the abilities of both the Thief and Assassin archetypes. Even with the expansions, Assassin is rated as the worst archetype for rogues on most guides that I have found. In my personal opinion, it is inherently flawed because Surprise rounds are exceedingly rare. Something akin to the Gloom stalker ranger's abilities would be more appropriate.

In my opinion, I would ask your DM to swap subclasses. I would suggest either the Swashbuckler or the Arcane Trickster. The reason being that they both have abilities that put the assassin to shame in 90% of cases.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The best assassin subclass is the arcane trickster, invisibility + BA hide = sneaky sneaky stab stab.

Thief is pretty good too, climbing is under appreciated.

So, I vote for just getting rid of your current subclass.

[Jarlaxle83]

Thank you all, I'm trying to get the DM to allow me to change my archtype will either go swashbuckler, arcane trickster or maybe Mastermind (since my character is a spy) my problem with Mastermind is as a changeling I can already do most of what it's abilities can.
But yah my only real opportunity to use assassinate would to sneak well in front of the party and attack before they get there (which is stupid imo) since doing that would leave me surrounded by enemies with no other target to go after other than yours truly....
They really underpowered the assassin and I can't figure out why. I don't think it would throw the game balance off for them to be able to attack from concealment (as long as they aren't detected) and get one guaranteed crit per combat. Or to be able to hit a enemy that hasn't taken their turn on that round at advantage... I mean look at the damage some of the spells a magic user can cast or the battle master... Or the barbarian, especially the zealot at 15th level with rage beyond death and persistent rage.... Sorry for the rant it just really grinds my gears.

[Yakk]

Scout. Get into position. Attack and signal party, then retreat.

A battlemaster 3/gloomstalker 5/assassin 3+X can put out 6 auto crits, 7 if you quaff a haste potion before combat.

At 20 with a +3 bow and +1 arrows that is 12d6+24d8+98 damage, or 248 damage if everything hits; a CR 26 creature's HP budget.

Then you move and bonus action hide, and everyone else runs in from off-map.

Even at earlier levels you can put out some serious opening pain. But you have to work for it.

[sithlordnergal]

Scout. Get into position. Attack and signal party, then retreat.

A battlemaster 3/gloomstalker 5/assassin 3+X can put out 6 auto crits, 7 if you quaff a haste potion before combat.

At 20 with a +3 bow and +1 arrows that is 12d6+24d8+98 damage, or 248 damage if everything hits; a CR 26 creature's HP budget.

Then you move and bonus action hide, and everyone else runs in from off-map.

Even at earlier levels you can put out some serious opening pain. But you have to work for it.

That assumes the party is willing to do that...I have played with many parties where such a strategy wouldn't work simply because they won't wait for you to get into position, or there's simply no scout because they always stick with you.

[Jarlaxle83]

Then you move and bonus action hide, and everyone else runs in from off-map.


It's been ruled that rogues can't hide once in combat except in extenuating circumstances

[Tanarii]

It's been ruled that rogues can't hide once in combat except in extenuating circumstances
In that case, you should ask if you can change classes entirely.

[djreynolds]

First off Jarlaxle is the best of the Drizzt novel characters... so koodos

You must press your DM. Have expertise in stealth and perception and I think the skulker feat.

You must go it alone or with comparable allies.

Other players may hate it, but you must sneak off well ahead and take the risk.

Does your DM have time for this? Does your party allow it? IRL are they like it takes too long for this I got work in the morning.

Also history checks if you try to alter identities.

Ask your DM? Will they indulge all this stuff?

Otherwise the basic rogue by itself is very strong.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's been ruled that rogues can't hide once in combat except in extenuating circumstances

Ugh...

The whole point of using actions is when you are within an encounter.

Cunning Action (Hide) is specifically for hiding in an encounter!

What sort of crazy pills is that DM smoking?

[Jarlaxle83]

Ugh...

The whole point of using actions is when you are within an encounter.

Cunning Action (Hide) is specifically for hiding in an encounter!

What sort of crazy pills is that DM smoking?

That's what I thought when it was brought up the whole point of cunning action is so the low AC rogue can avoid loosing his very limited hp, he said "once in combat the enemies are too alert to be able to hide from, jeez I was even thinking of that and moving out of line of sight then "popping around a corner to gain advantage on my next bow shot for sneak attack, I think I only tried once to roll behind a enemy that was engaged with 3 other PC's to avoid being the target of it's next attack

[Jerrykhor]

That's what I thought when it was brought up the whole point of cunning action is so the low AC rogue can avoid loosing his very limited hp, he said "once in combat the enemies are too alert to be able to hide from, jeez I was even thinking of that and moving out of line of sight then "popping around a corner to gain advantage on my next bow shot for sneak attack, I think I only tried once to roll behind a enemy that was engaged with 3 other PC's to avoid being the target of it's next attack

That sounds like a load of horse****. I'd take it as a red flag for being a poor DM, but you can always test his general attitude with some questions like 'Why are all your enemies super alert?' or 'What if i am invisible, or just out of sight?'

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That's what I thought when it was brought up the whole point of cunning action is so the low AC rogue can avoid loosing his very limited hp, he said "once in combat the enemies are too alert to be able to hide from, jeez I was even thinking of that and moving out of line of sight then "popping around a corner to gain advantage on my next bow shot for sneak attack, I think I only tried once to roll behind a enemy that was engaged with 3 other PC's to avoid being the target of it's next attack

Your DM is specifically punishing the Rogue, or you, because of whatever reason.

Any other houserules, right now you should burn that character and pick a new class/theme cause you're being gimped.

[Jarlaxle83]

It is a online West march campaign, so they aren't against me personally just the rogue class. I have thought about killing him off and making a new character but I like my character, just not all of the rulings nerfing the rogue class as much as well I should say they are since it's about 9 DM's atm.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It is a online West march campaign, so they aren't against me personally just the rogue class. I have thought about killing him off and making a new character but I like my character, just not all of the rulings nerfing the rogue class as much as well I should say they are since it's about 9 DM's atm.

If the DM(s) are against the Rogue, don't rock the boat or they may think you're specifically trying to be a rebel.

A barbarian "assasin" might be calling your name lol.

[Jarlaxle83]

If the DM(s) are against the Rogue, don't rock the boat or they may think you're specifically trying to be a rebel.

A barbarian "assasin" might be calling your name lol.

If I do end up changing characters I probably will go Goliath barbarian, path of the zealot lol they want to "fix" the rogue because they think it's broken I will rage beyond death entire encounters and drink a healing potion just before I run out of rages lol

[Man_Over_Game]

That's what I thought when it was brought up the whole point of cunning action is so the low AC rogue can avoid loosing his very limited hp, he said "once in combat the enemies are too alert to be able to hide from, jeez I was even thinking of that and moving out of line of sight then "popping around a corner to gain advantage on my next bow shot for sneak attack, I think I only tried once to roll behind a enemy that was engaged with 3 other PC's to avoid being the target of it's next attack

Bring up the context of the Lightfoot Halfling's racial ability, and how that plays into his perception.


Fact is, the table has a different perception of what's acceptable than you, and that's never okay when everyone has to play the same game by the same rules.

Talk to your table.

Explain that they are pushing for a view that the default balance of the game does not support, and that you deserve a fair chance. Whether that means picking an entirely new character, or deciding rules that everyone can agree on, it needs to happen. Otherwise, you or someone less vocal will just run into the same **** in a different session.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If I do end up changing characters I probably will go Goliath barbarian, path of the zealot lol they want to "fix" the rogue because they think it's broken I will rage beyond death entire encounters and drink a healing potion just before I run out of rages lol

Don't try to make them mad, but do tell them that rogues are pretty much expected to get sneak attack every round.

[Jarlaxle83]

Don't try to make them mad, but do tell them that rogues are pretty much expected to get sneak attack every round.

I know I'm just frustrated right now idk if I could play a barbarian anyway, I prefer to use more tactics then run in and smash, it's why I was drawn to the assassin archtype. I was thinking I would be able to sneak alongside the party while they are crashing around, then when combat starts pop out of nowhere and hit a opponent with a crit, disappear back into the bushes to gain another regular sneak attack.
If I were to roll another it would probably be a Battle Master or maybe a sorcerer, but really do like my character at least for rp purposes even if he is being nerfed, and in all reality I do get a sneak attack most of the time as long as a PC is within 5' of the enemy (although that is another sore point being in the phb it states if another enemy of the target is within 5' not another "Ally" or "PC" but I'm not the type to rock the boat usually

[Yakk]

Careful. You start playing a fighter they may rule that once in combat, creatures are too alert to be hit by extra attacks. And as for champions, well criticals on a 19 don't make sense. And remarkable athlete only applies to skill checks that the fighter has on its skill list.

What is a few class features removed between friends!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I know I'm just frustrated right now idk if I could play a barbarian anyway, I prefer to use more tactics then run in and smash, it's why I was drawn to the assassin archtype. I was thinking I would be able to sneak alongside the party while they are crashing around, then when combat starts pop out of nowhere and hit a opponent with a crit, disappear back into the bushes to gain another regular sneak attack.
If I were to roll another it would probably be a Battle Master or maybe a sorcerer, but really do like my character at least for rp purposes even if he is being nerfed, and in all reality I do get a sneak attack most of the time as long as a PC is within 5' of the enemy (although that is another sore point being in the phb it states if another enemy of the target is within 5' not another "Ally" or "PC" but I'm not the type to rock the boat usually

Barbarians are one of tge most tactical weapin users out there.

Questions...

Should I rage?

Should I reckless Attack?

Should I use Extra Attack to use an Athletics Check to knock a creature prone? Grapple?

Am I a wolf totem? If yes, who should I be next to?


Careful. You start playing a fighter they may rule that once in combat, creatures are too alert to be hit by extra attacks. And as for champions, well criticals on a 19 don't make sense. And remarkable athlete only applies to skill checks that the fighter has on its skill list.

What is a few class features removed between friends!

5 gold says this mentality stems from the idea that weapon damage is OP.

Lol.

[MoiMagnus]

When reading thread like this, I wish the designer were even more clear in their rule writing and explicitly saying "as a rogue, you should be able to sneak attack almost every turn" and "an assassin carefully planing his fight should be able to have a surprise round half of the encounters".

As a DM, when the campagn style doesn't make surprise round something frequent, I usually add the houserule "more than 20 in initiative means your first round has the same advantages as a surprise round". It makes initiative even stronger (which it doesn't need as it already is very strong), but not to the point of OP so that's still reasonable.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

When reading thread like this, I wish the designer were even more clear in their rule writing and explicitly saying "as a rogue, you should be able to sneak attack almost every turn" and "an assassin carefully planing his fight should be able to have a surprise round half of the encounters".

As a DM, when the campagn style doesn't make surprise round something frequent, I usually add the houserule "more than 20 in initiative means your first round has the same advantages as a surprise round". It makes initiative even stronger (which it doesn't need as it already is very strong), but not to the point of OP so that's still reasonable.

Book of Intent would be great.

[Jarlaxle83]

Here is exact context on the hide in combat

Q: Can Rogues always Hide in combat using their Cunning Action?
A: Not usually. Per the PHB pg 177: "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise, you give away your position.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen. The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
So, if there is some compelling special circumstance, or your allies specifically work to distract the enemy, then the DM may allow it. The DM may also modify it based on the circumstances, such as making you roll at Disadvantage, making the enemy roll their Perception at Advantage, or even both. Also, if you take a Move action before attacking, you've "stopped hiding" and are seen.

[Jarlaxle83]

And when I asked about assassination

Oop, wait, re-read it, and you only get the autocrit if the target is surprised - so if you aren't in a surprise round, the crit effect doesn't apply.

[stoutstien]

Honestly the best way to make assassin not suck is a complete rewrite of the subclass.
Lv 3
keep the advantage against anyone who has not taking a turn yet and any damage done by sneak attack is maximized during the first turn.
* It's simple straightforward, and easy to apply. It also scales better with more rogue levels versus now where the subclass is seen as I dip at most.

Proficiency bonuses same as printed

Lv 9
You now have expertise in the disguise and poisoners kit.
Investigation checks to see through your disguise are now made at disadvantage.
You can now apply a poison to a weapon or to another object, such as a drink, as a reaction.
*poisons are something that vary from table to table so I look at most of that as a semi ribbon. The near infallible disguise is limited but very flavorful.

Lv 13
You can now apply or change a disguise as a bonus action. You can now easily carry twice as many disguises at one time.
When you roll initiative you instead can choose to use your dexterity score.

Lv17
anytime you roll damage for sneak attack you can instead choose to just use the maximum damage for a number of dice equal to your Dex modifier.


I've been offering this alternative now for a while and players like it because it's easy to use and effective. I like it because I don't have to worry about the game stopping just because one players entire style revolves around surprise.

[CNagy]

I loathe the Assassin as a DM not because of the autocrits (those are just something you live with) or the focus on surprise (which I think is an anomaly in 5E; it's not a condition, it's not a round, it acts like a condition and only ever lasts during what used to be the "surprise round" in previous editions) but because optimizing the use of Assassinate leads people to regularly split the party.

[Contrast]

When reading thread like this, I wish the designer were even more clear in their rule writing and explicitly saying "as a rogue, you should be able to sneak attack almost every turn" and "an assassin carefully planing his fight should be able to have a surprise round half of the encounters".

Just to say if the party is prepared to work together/are willing to expend resources and the adventure supports it getting a surprise round isn't that difficult (Pass Without Trace/Enhance Ability being a pretty key element to this). But a party who was getting a surprise round for 50% of their combats would be way too much - surprise rounds are very powerful.

One of the reasons why I like the UA alternate rogue feature of just being able to use a bonus action to aim and get advantage regardless.


Here is exact context on the hide in combat

Q: Can Rogues always Hide in combat using their Cunning Action?
A: Not usually. Per the PHB pg 177: "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise, you give away your position.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen. The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
So, if there is some compelling special circumstance, or your allies specifically work to distract the enemy, then the DM may allow it. The DM may also modify it based on the circumstances, such as making you roll at Disadvantage, making the enemy roll their Perception at Advantage, or even both. Also, if you take a Move action before attacking, you've "stopped hiding" and are seen.

The part of those sentences is 'if you come out of hiding and approach a creature' and 'as you approach a creature'. So if you're hiding behind a wall and the enemy is 20ft away, if you break cover from behind your wall and run over to stab them you will break stealth before the attack and won't get sneak attack. This is why you use a ranged weapon in that circumstance so you don't have to break cover before making the attack.

If they don't think Hide can be used in combat, ask why its a bonus action then. Jeremy Crawfords comments (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/834842113158246400) if those mean anything to you/your DM.

Where was that quote taken from exactly? In my experience its very common for rogues to using their Cunning Action to Hide in combat. You certainly can't always do it (you need something to hide behind that also offers line of sight to your target which isn't always available) but if you can break line of sight, you can hide.

[Tanarii]

Saying that pop-up hiding may be difficult is one thing. But that’s not what they’ve done.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I loathe the Assassin as a DM not because of the autocrits (those are just something you live with) or the focus on surprise (which I think is an anomaly in 5E; it's not a condition, it's not a round, it acts like a condition and only ever lasts during what used to be the "surprise round" in previous editions) but because optimizing the use of Assassinate leads people to regularly split the party.

Throw the Assassin on the pile of evidence that supports "5e was changed at some point and they didn't go back through to edit everything correctly".

I agree about the splitting the party issue.

What I would do is give the Assasin a bonus to damage or some sort of crit feature (19-20) whenever they attack a creature that is surprised, grappled, restrained, or incapacitated.

This means that one of three things are a possibility.

* Rogue goes solo to get surprise. Useful in niche situation.
* Ally grapples/cast spell on an enemy that grapples, restrains, stuns/paralyzed, or incapacitates target innsome way.
* Rogue builds to be a grappler so they can do a knife fight to the death. Like prison shaking or where you tie your hand to another person hand and then you each have a knife. Manages + Assassin Rogue = fun build.

[djreynolds]

The base rogue is very strong. As long as there is an ally engaged you can sneak attack.

Use your cunning action to disengage.

Move in and stab and move out.

All rogues can do this. Find out who your tanks are and stick with them.

And when you cannot sneak attack... just attack.

Have fun

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The base rogue is very strong. As long as there is an ally engaged you can sneak attack.

Use your cunning action to disengage.

Move in and stab and move out.

All rogues can do this. Find out who your tanks are and stick with them.

And when you cannot sneak attack... just attack.

Have fun

Can't sneak attack when you have disadvantage. I meant to put that this would override that. Thus, these conditions would allow for sneak attack (bonus damage or bonus crit) even if you have diaadvantage on the roll.

Assassin would be as good as Swashbuckler at that point.

[TheUser]

Step 1: request that your auto crit be decoupled from surprise.
"If you attack an enemy that you are hidden from that has not yet taken a turn in the combat you automatically deal a critical strike with that attack."

Step 2: replace the infiltration hooha with debilitations on sneak attacks from hiding.
Level 9 - Crippling Strike:
When you attack a creature you are hidden from and deal sneak attack damage to it that turn the creature must succeed on a constitution saving throw with DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your dexterity modifier. If they fail the save they have their speed reduced to half (rounded down). If their speed has already been reduced by this feature their speed is instead reduced to 0 and they fall prone. The creature may re-attempt the save at the end of each their turns, removing all effects on a success.


Level 13 - Deadly Cadence
Every time you successfully land a sneak attack against a creature your subsequent sneak attacks against that creature deal an additional 2d6 bonus damage. This feature's bonus compounds for up to 6d6 additional sneak attack damage. This bonus lasts until the creature dies, you finish a long rest, or if you deal sneak attack damage to another creature.


This is what I have used in it's place and it balances the subclass out nicely.
Utility in combat as well as improved damage for fights that run longer.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Step 1: request that your auto crit be decoupled from surprise.
"If you attack an enemy that you are hidden from that has not yet taken a turn in the combat you automatically deal a critical strike with that attack."

Step 2: replace the infiltration hooha with debilitations on sneak attacks from hiding.
Level 9 - Crippling Strike:
When you attack a creature you are hidden from and deal sneak attack damage to it that turn the creature must succeed on a constitution saving throw with DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your dexterity modifier. If they fail the save they have their speed reduced to half (rounded down). If their speed has already been reduced by this feature their speed is instead reduced to 0 and they fall prone. The creature may re-attempt the save at the end of each their turns, removing all effects on a success.


Level 13 - Deadly Cadence
Every time you successfully land a sneak attack against a creature your subsequent sneak attacks against that creature deal an additional 2d6 bonus damage. This feature's bonus compounds for up to 6d6 additional sneak attack damage. This bonus lasts until the creature dies, you finish a long rest, or if you deal sneak attack damage to another creature.


This is what I have used in it's place and it balances the subclass out nicely.
Utility in combat as well as improved damage for fights that run longer.

OP isn't allowed to hide in combat.

[TheUser]

OP isn't allowed to hide in combat.

Meh, spend a bonus action after landing a sneak attack or make it require landing an attack made at advantage. The concept is that you can't do it each round without some extra requirement.

[Jarlaxle83]

If they don't think Hide can be used in combat, ask why its a bonus action then. Jeremy Crawfords comments[/URL] if those mean anything to you/your DM.

Where was that quote taken from exactly? In my experience its very common for rogues to using their Cunning Action to Hide in combat. You certainly can't always do it (you need something to hide behind that also offers line of sight to your target which isn't always available) but if you can break line of sight, you can hide.

The quote was taken from the rules faq for our campaign.

We are not allowed to quote Jeremy Crawford, we were told it's not official and to stop using his rullings.

[Tanarii]

The quote was taken from the rules faq for our campaign.

We are not allowed to quote Jeremy Crawford, we were told it's not official and to stop using his rullings.
Ditch this game. Seriously.

[TheUser]

The quote was taken from the rules faq for our campaign.

We are not allowed to quote Jeremy Crawford, we were told it's not official and to stop using his rullings.

There's a difference between JC rulings and simply employing the logic of: if this was not meant to be used in combat why is it a bonus action and why do lightfoot halflings have a way to hide behind medium allies as an option?

Just simply reflecting on the other contents of the PHB proves that Hiding in combat is not just RAI but also RAW.

[Jarlaxle83]

Ok so he let me switch, I'm going swashbuckler, I would have gone thief for the use magic device at lvl 13 but we are in a low magic item campaign, only allowed a total of 5 magic items 1 uncommon 1 rare 1 very rare 1 legendary and a artifact at lvl 20, and spell scrolls are included in that so that ability it pretty much pointless too.

[Contrast]

The quote was taken from the rules faq for our campaign.

Wait, so you knew this going in and still chose to play a rogue? Bold move - at least the DM let you know up front I guess. I would ask how they feel about the alternate feature UA that adds a bonus action Aim for rogues to get advantage if they don't move. I know many DMs who accept its mechanically fine but object to the idea of the jack in the box rogue and that helps avoid that.


We are not allowed to quote Jeremy Crawford, we were told it's not official and to stop using his rullings.

They aren't official anymore - official rulings are in the Sage Advice Compendium. On the otherhand the official approach would allow hiding anyway so officialness clearly isn't the determinative factor in this case :smalltongue:

[djreynolds]

Ok so he let me switch, I'm going swashbuckler, I would have gone thief for the use magic device at lvl 13 but we are in a low magic item campaign, only allowed a total of 5 magic items 1 uncommon 1 rare 1 very rare 1 legendary and a artifact at lvl 20, and spell scrolls are included in that so that ability it pretty much pointless too.

Well all is now good.

Swashbuckler is definitely easier to sneak attack with