Bard/Paladin Multiclass Question

[DSCrankshaw]

So I'm playing a Lore Bard in a three man party with a Life Cleric and an archer Hunter Ranger. It occurred to me that we could use a bit more melee, and it looks like fiends may play an important role in the campaign, so I was thinking of multiclassing to Paladin. I have (generously) rolled stats of 20 Cha, 18 Dex, and 16 Con, so I figure he can make a pretty decent Dex Paladin. Since the DM decided I needed a bit more in-character RP to justify the multiclass (I have some thoughts on that), I just took level 4 in Bard and took the War Caster feat.

Right now, I'm thinking of taking my 5th level in Bard for third level spells, then two levels in Paladin, then 6th level Bard. I'll use my Lore Bard Magical Secrets to take Counterspell and Haste. He won't be a really strong melee build since he won't have Extra Attack, though he'll have an AC of 18 with a shield, a decent HP, and I figure Haste will help make up for the lack of Extra Attack if I really need to go toe-to-toe with the enemy.

Any thoughts on this build? Any spell suggestions? Which fighting style would work best? And if the campaign does go to higher levels, should I continue in bard, or should I take paladin to 6th for extra attack and aura of protection? Admittedly, that last one may depend more on RP than mechanical reasons.

[Teaguethebean]

Any thoughts on this build? Any spell suggestions? Which fighting style would work best? And if the campaign does go to higher levels, should I continue in bard, or should I take paladin to 6th for extra attack and aura of protection? Admittedly, that last one may depend more on RP than mechanical reasons.
I would personally not take Counterspell as booming blade would be huge for your build. It would help you keep up in damage and make using a melee weapon worth it.

[Nidgit]

I would personally not take Counterspell as booming blade would be huge for your build. It would help you keep up in damage and make using a melee weapon worth it.
To build on this, it's probably better to take Booming Blade and Counterspell than BB and Haste. Haste won't allow you to cast a spell twice so it's got somewhat limited value on a BB build. Counterspell is always useful.

Personally, I'd go to 6 in Bard to get Magical Secrets, 2 in Paladin for Smites and a Fighting Style, and the rest in Bard for better spells. 6 in Paladin is nice but is probably too delayed at this point to really be all that helpful.

[sithlordnergal]

ight now, I'm thinking of taking my 5th level in Bard for third level spells, then two levels in Paladin, then 6th level Bard. I'll use my Lore Bard Magical Secrets to take Counterspell and Haste. He won't be a really strong melee build since he won't have Extra Attack, though he'll have an AC of 18 with a shield, a decent HP, and I figure Haste will help make up for the lack of Extra Attack if I really need to go toe-to-toe with the enemy.

For spells, you'll actually want Booming Blade and Shield instead of Counterspell and Haste. BB gives you a decent melee attack that scales with your level, you can Smite on, and you can use with War Caster for Opportunity Attacks. This is especially good when you remember that Dissonant Whispers allows you to make an opportunity attack on those who fail their save and have to move away from you, so you could cast Dissonant Whispers, then Booming Blade with a Smite, and gain the full BB damage due to them moving. Shield is there because that +5 to AC is AMAZING on a Paladin, especially if you aren't using Heavy Armor. I really can't recommend it enough.




Any thoughts on this build? Any spell suggestions? Which fighting style would work best? And if the campaign does go to higher levels, should I continue in bard, or should I take paladin to 6th for extra attack and aura of protection? Admittedly, that last one may depend more on RP than mechanical reasons.

As for my thoughts on the build, I like it. Palabards, or Bardadins in this case, are excellent support gishes that mix the Bard's regular support abilities with some of the Paladin's damage options. For your fighting style, go Dueling if you wanna do a bit more damage, and Defense if you wanna tank. Honestly, I'd go Defense over Dueling, especially if you aren't planning on getting Extra Attack. And even then...I have a Soradin that has Dueling and a Soradin that has Defense, and the Defense tends to be better since you can get your AC up to insane levels. I'm talking 35 AC insane with the right gear.

As for your levels, I would try to get 6 Paladin/14 Bard. Aura of Protection is just too good of an ability for a character that does a lot of buffing to pass up. Heck, it even boosts Death Saves since Death Saves are, in their very nature, a saving throw.

[kazaryu]

To build on this, it's probably better to take Booming Blade and Counterspell than BB and Haste. Haste won't allow you to cast a spell twice so it's got somewhat limited value on a BB build. Counterspell is always useful.
haste means extra attack (so more smites). more AC. and more movement. the fact that they're using booming blade has nothing to do with it.



Right now, I'm thinking of taking my 5th level in Bard for third level spells, then two levels in Paladin, then 6th level Bard. I'll use my Lore Bard Magical Secrets to take Counterspell and Haste. He won't be a really strong melee build since he won't have Extra Attack, though he'll have an AC of 18 with a shield, a decent HP, and I figure Haste will help make up for the lack of Extra Attack if I really need to go toe-to-toe with the enemy.
this sounds like a solid plan. honestly it all depends on how long the campaign is expected to last for.

but being bard 6/pally 2 sounds like a decent enough idea.

looking toward the future i'd say that continuing to level bard to at least lvl 11/14 (depending on if your dm lets you replace magical secret spells with other magical secret spells. or if you'd need to wait until 14 to pick up 6th level spells from not your spell list) is a good idea. pick up tenser's transformation. keep that in your back pocket if you really need to go ham.

of course, over the course of the campaign if it reaches that point, you'll get a better feel for if you need to be a bit more melee focused or if you're ok keeping going with bard so you can (eventually) get those sweet sweet 8th/9th level spells. or if you're having fun playing melee regardless of what your party *needs* you can just focus on paladin from there.



Which fighting style would work best?

i don't tihnk you're going to be attacking enough (and your attacks that do hit are going to be doing enough damage) that you'll get much use out of dueling. you can't great weapon with a dex build. and if you're the only frontliner protection is gonna only be 'meh'. even moreso at higher levels when everyone and your mother has multiattack). so defense would imo be your best bet. would also be thematically appropriate since you're doing this to boost your parties tankability.



For spells, you'll actually want Booming Blade and Shield instead of Counterspell and Haste.

i disagree. shield is great and all, but not at the cost of haste. since his ability scores are already top tier, it'd probably better to pick up shield via magic initiate. on that note...if he plans on nabbing magic initiate, then it might be wise to grab booming blade there too. so he can fully utilize his magical secrets.

[Arkhios]

How high is your Strength? RAW, It has to be at least 13 if you're going to multiclass into paladin.

Personally, I think that handwaving those multiclassing restrictions (=minimum required ability scores) is something you should never do, because multiclassing can cause big shifts in balance. Therefore, it's honestly quite reasonable that there's some cost to do so, even if only that.

[Barny]

If you really want to go Melee, booming Blade is a great choice but it's a bit costly as 6th lvl magic secrets.

If you want to min/max this char for dmg, then I would suggest multiclassing with only 1lvl of Hexblade warlock as 5th level.
1 level of hexblade offer 1)Booming blade for melee and EB for range cantirp, 2) Hexblade's curse for dmg boost, 3) Using Cha bonus for your 1-hr weapon, 4)great spells like shield and hex, 5) medium armor and shield.
All of these are great match to your current char's needs.

For 6th lvl magic secrets, there are many great choices, but I would suggest you to pick the spells free from concentration and also scaling well in later levels.
Haste is good but there are many better concentration bard spells, e.g. greater invisibility/ Polymorph @4th and animated objects @5th (1 of best in bard list). So you may be less like to maintain haste once you have better concentration spells after you gain 2 more bard levels.

For example, Bink /fly are good spells that can save your life, and it's useful even in high levels.
If you want to do more dmg, spirit guardian is a good aoe spell and it scales very well at high levels.
For more pets/action economy, animate dead is good for low upkeep cost and no concentration, great if you dm allows pets/undead creatures to attune magic items.

[DSCrankshaw]

How high is your Strength? RAW, It has to be at least 13 if you're going to multiclass into paladin.

Personally, I think that handwaving those multiclassing restrictions (=minimum required ability scores) is something you should never do, because multiclassing can cause big shifts in balance. Therefore, it's honestly quite reasonable that there's some cost to do so, even if only that.

Not to worry. Our DM gave us a last chance to move our stats around after our first adventure, and I decided that 13 would do more good in Strength than in Wisdom.


To build on this, it's probably better to take Booming Blade and Counterspell than BB and Haste. Haste won't allow you to cast a spell twice so it's got somewhat limited value on a BB build. Counterspell is always useful.

Personally, I'd go to 6 in Bard to get Magical Secrets, 2 in Paladin for Smites and a Fighting Style, and the rest in Bard for better spells. 6 in Paladin is nice but is probably too delayed at this point to really be all that helpful.

All good advice. I hadn't considered Booming Blade, though I'll need to check whether SCAG content is allowed. If so, I like that it's a cantrip and doesn't grant a save or require concentration. That concentration requirement is a pretty big tax on Haste. That said, even if it is concentration, casting a spell and attacking (basically the Valor Bard's 14th level feature), or getting two chances to smite, not to mention better AC and Dex saves and speed, is a pretty effective buff if he has to step up.

I'm keeping counterspell, since we don't have a wizard. I can't really fulfill the arcanist role entirely, but shutting down enemy casters will help a lot.

[CheddarChampion]

If you plan to use a weapon and a shield, consider picking up warcaster.
Shillelagh will improve your attacks if you can pick it as a magical secret.

Dissonant whispers can be good. On a failed save an enemy might provoke an attack from both yourself and the cleric.
If you get to level 14 in bard, consider Tenser's Transformation.

[DSCrankshaw]

Right now I'm thinking of keeping Counterspell and Haste as my magical secrets, and then taking Magic Initiate in a couple of levels if I really want booming blade. What would a good second cantrip and first level spell be? I'm leaning away from a once a day Shield when I get five cutting words per encounter.

At this point, I'm starting to be concerned about overshadowing the other players. They already think that I do some, though I've explained that it's because I built a half-elf Lore Bard with criminal background skillmonkey since we didn't have a rogue, and our first adventure was an urban mystery, so of course he was going to shine. I'm hoping our next adventure will involve crocodile hunting.

[Barny]

Right now I'm thinking of keeping Counterspell and Haste as my magical secrets, and then taking Magic Initiate in a couple of levels if I really want booming blade. What would a good second cantrip and first level spell be? I'm leaning away from a once a day Shield when I get five cutting words per encounter.


If you take Magic Initiate for BB, I would suggestion Minor Illusion and Find familiar.

Minor Illusion is useful in both combat and non-combat. E.g. creating an illusional wall/tree/rock to cover your range allies hunter, so he can have advantage atk.
Find familair is the best lvl1 spell imo.

[DSCrankshaw]

Minor illusion is a great spell--but it's also on the Bard spell list, so I already have it.

It occurs to me that my fourth level isn't really finalized yet, so I bet I could switch out my War Caster feat for Magic Initiate, and pick up Booming Blade and, I dunno, Green Flame Blade or Lightning Lure, now. That will bump my melee capability early. Is it worth doing, or should I take War Caster ASAP? I wouldn't get it until 10th otherwise (either Bard 8/Paladin 2, or Bard 6/Paladin 4).

[Quietus]

If your want to lean into the melee side, I'd honestly ask if you can switch from lore to swords bard. Two levels of paladin on a sword bard makes a very potent character.

Other options could include :
Hexblade dip. One level for cantrips and armor proficiencies, or two to add invocations.
Keep straight class, but get Magic initiate Wizard. Mage armor, plus booming blade/green flame blade.
Grab warcaster, then at level 8 pick up moderately armored to add shields.

I would skip learning haste, unless your constitution saves are really good. The downside of that spell is significant.

[CTurbo]

Do you just want to be tougher or are you actually wanting to be good in melee?

I am not a fan of completely changing your character because you feel you NEED to for mechanical reasons.

Tougher? You just need a higher AC, more hit points, and a way to hit harder. There are many ways to accomplish this with minimum effort.

1. A single level of Fighter gets you shield, medium armor, Second Wind, all weapons, and Fighting Style.
2. A single level of Warlock(Hexblade) gets you medium armor, shield, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and spells like Shield, Armor of Agathys, and Wrathful Smite.
3. A single level of Sorcerer(Draconic) gets you AC of 13+Dex, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, the Shield spell and other blasting spells.
4. You already know what 2 levels of Paladin gets you.

I do think if you're going to keep the dip short like 1 or 2 levels, you're really going to want the blade cantrips.

Also keep in mind you can accomplish much of this through feats like Moderately Armored, Tough, Magic Initiate, etc... without having to multiclass.


If you want to be tougher AND better in melee? Honestly you want that second attack. Paladin 5 is the best way to go about this considering how good it synergizes with Bard stuff. As mentioned above, Paladin 6 would be a no-brainer at this point. Paladin 7 is really strong depending on which Oath you take. Actually, I could see going Bard 6 and then just taking Paladin all the way out from there. The Paladin class is just so good and you get great stuff at every level. Vengeance 9 gets Haste also.

I would get Defense as your Fighting Style.
Go for either Booming Blade OR second attack.
With 18 Dex and Defense Style, Studded Leather armor + shield is 19AC. Breastplate + shield is 19AC. Half-Plate+ shield is 20AC
Find Familiar is the best Magic Initiate spell. Bless is probably runner up.
Haste and Counterspell are great Magic Secret Spells, but also consider Spirit Guardians if you really want to be a beast in melee. I don't really like taking cantrips with Magic Secrets when you could be getting some great 3rd level spells.

[djreynolds]

So I'm playing a Lore Bard in a three man party with a Life Cleric and an archer Hunter Ranger. It occurred to me that we could use a bit more melee, and it looks like fiends may play an important role in the campaign, so I was thinking of multiclassing to Paladin. I have (generously) rolled stats of 20 Cha, 18 Dex, and 16 Con, so I figure he can make a pretty decent Dex Paladin. Since the DM decided I needed a bit more in-character RP to justify the multiclass (I have some thoughts on that), I just took level 4 in Bard and took the War Caster feat.

Right now, I'm thinking of taking my 5th level in Bard for third level spells, then two levels in Paladin, then 6th level Bard. I'll use my Lore Bard Magical Secrets to take Counterspell and Haste. He won't be a really strong melee build since he won't have Extra Attack, though he'll have an AC of 18 with a shield, a decent HP, and I figure Haste will help make up for the lack of Extra Attack if I really need to go toe-to-toe with the enemy.

Any thoughts on this build? Any spell suggestions? Which fighting style would work best? And if the campaign does go to higher levels, should I continue in bard, or should I take paladin to 6th for extra attack and aura of protection? Admittedly, that last one may depend more on RP than mechanical reasons.

I would go ahead and go for the top prize, and grab paladin and grab sorcerer and maybe even hexblade. There are some good threads around GitP on this.

[Vessyra]

Extra attack is a really good thing to pick up for melee damage, and aura of protection is also very powerful. However, both are very far away, and so booming blade will be wanted to pick up the damage in the interim. So you could go to bard 6 to pick it up; however, that only increases the time spent not being a paladin. So therefore, I'd go with magic initiate to pick up booming blade, then go paladin 2. Both paladin 6 and bard 6 are very good, for the extra attack/aura and magical secrets, respectively. Not sure which one to try and get first; bard 6 is closer, but paladin 6 helps with the haste concentration checks. Up to you, with whichever is most appealing.

[diplomancer]

Casting haste on yourself as a melee character is a very risky proposition without warcaster (even then, if your constitution is +2, it's still somewhat risky). It's better to get it as a buff from a non-melee.

Nevertheless, I don't think getting any cantrip on Magical Secrets is a good idea. If you are using the new UA with expanded spell list, tiny servants + magic stone (from warlock magic initiate+ booming blade+ hex) is a nice combination, your 3 tiny servants (from a 4th level slot) can be right behind you and get the stones from you, throwing at enemies. Shield is not a good spell from magic initiate unless your DM allows you to cast it from your slots.

[Quietus]

I would go ahead and go for the top prize, and grab paladin and grab sorcerer and maybe even hexblade. There are some good threads around GitP on this.


Extra attack is a really good thing to pick up for melee damage, and aura of protection is also very powerful. However, both are very far away, and so booming blade will be wanted to pick up the damage in the interim. So you could go to bard 6 to pick it up; however, that only increases the time spent not being a paladin. So therefore, I'd go with magic initiate to pick up booming blade, then go paladin 2. Both paladin 6 and bard 6 are very good, for the extra attack/aura and magical secrets, respectively. Not sure which one to try and get first; bard 6 is closer, but paladin 6 helps with the haste concentration checks. Up to you, with whichever is most appealing.

I have played a Bard/Paladin multiclass up to level 11 (9 college of swords bard/2 Paladin), so a little insight :

There is a Sorcadin in the party, and I always felt right there on par with her. With the way I set this character up, the two play significantly differently. She can output far more damage than me, and her concentration check blows mine away. But where she rolls in to melee it up, I use my bard spells round 1 to shape the battlefield (Faerie fire, hold person, hypnotic pattern, etc) before engaging in melee. Individually we both feel extremely powerful at this level; together we almost have enough power and flexibility to be an entire team unto ourselves. Almost.

Since the OP is Lore bard, assuming that decision can't be retconned, there'll be a few changes needed. If you stay with College of Lore, then I strongly recommend picking up the blade cantrips. Possibly also Find Familiar, though that isn't strictly required since as noted, Faerie Fire/Hold Person are part of your bread and butter. How you get those cantrips is up to you - multiclassing even further will hurt, but so does spending one of your precious feats on Magic Initiate - but for now I strongly recommend staying the course on Bard, probably up to level 6. I jumped out at 3 Bard to get my two Paladin levels, and there was a dry spell between 5-8 where I really did feel a little behind. I still contributed, but where I was aiming to be a melee force, I got Extra Attack three levels after everyone else. Having the Scagtrips would probably help a lot with that.

[DSCrankshaw]

I would go ahead and go for the top prize, and grab paladin and grab sorcerer and maybe even hexblade. There are some good threads around GitP on this.

I don't think my DM will go for that. He's not particularly fond of multiclassing for purely mechanical reasons, but I think I can convince him that some levels of Paladin fits my character's backstory. However, there's a world of difference between a dip to buff up our party's melee capability, and min-maxing a three- or four-class multiclass.

I think the best advice I've gotten so far is to take Booming Blade as a cantrip, and that's been enough to convince me to take Magic Initiate at 4th level to get Booming Blade. Any other thoughts on what I should take? I would think Lightning Lure or Green Flame Blade would fit the bill well. I can get them using Sorcerer Magic Initiate, which makes them Charisma based. I'm reluctant to use Wizard (for mechanical reasons) or Warlock (for story reasons) for Magic Initiate. But what 1st level Sorcerer spell is most useful?

For those who've talked about Swords or Valor Bard, I'm afraid that option's out. I can't retcon out of Lore, and I'm not sure I should even if I could. We still need a skillmonkey, and that early Magical Secrets is pretty powerful.

So, right now the plan is as follows:



Take Magic Initiate at 4th level for the SCAG cantrips (and some yet-to-be-decided 1st level spell)
Take another level or two of Bard
Multiclass for two levels of Paladin
Definitely hit sixth level of Bard for Magical Secrets
Assuming the game goes beyond eighth level, decide where to go from there, with an eye toward taking War Caster as my next feat


It's possible that with the SCAG cantrips, I could decide that I don't really need any levels of Paladin yet. The cantrips are a pretty effective buff to melee on their own, and getting War Caster by eighth could be more useful than smiting at that level. Remember, the main objective of this build is to add a bit more melee capability to my party, not to turn my character into a one-man wrecking ball. I still like the idea of a couple of levels of Paladin at some point, but depending on how effective I find the cantrips, it may be less of a priority, unless I decide that better AC and durability is more important (a distinct possibility).