Odd Questions about magical edge cases

[Phhase]

So, a couple odd questions popped into my head recently that I'd like a take or few on.

1) You set an Immovable Rod in place. You then slip a Bag of Holding around it. Can you move the bag?
This question hinges on whether or not you consider the internal dimension of the Bag to be a separate area that the Bag's opening is a portal to (and thusly, a "static" area, meaning you can "move" the Immovable Rod since it is now in a separate area).

2) You cast Nystul's Magic Aura on a creature, in order to temporarily change its creature type to Fiend. You then cast Banishment on it. Does it go to Hell? Possibly permanently, if you Concentrate for the full duration?

2b) Can you use the Chains of Carceri Invocation on it?

The text for Nystul's Magic Aura states, "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment."

If the answer is yes to either case, there could be some serious hijink potential here. Imagine using Banishment and Nystul's Magic Aura as a ghetto Plane Shift?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The answer is, ask your DM.

[erok0809]

I haven't put much thought into the others yet, but I can say that Nystul's Magic Aura doesnt change what plane you're native to, only your creature type. Is it strange that you could have a "fiend" native to the Material? Sure. But native the target will still be, so Banishment will function as normal and they'll be sent to a demiplane and return when the concentration ends.

[sithlordnergal]

So, a couple odd questions popped into my head recently that I'd like a take or few on.

1) You set an Immovable Rod in place. You then slip a Bag of Holding around it. Can you move the bag?
This question hinges on whether or not you consider the internal dimension of the Bag to be a separate area that the Bag's opening is a portal to (and thusly, a "static" area, meaning you can "move" the Immovable Rod since it is now in a separate area).


I would say yes, the bag can be moved. The internal area of the bag is generally treated as its own mini-dimension. Its why items that also have dimensions, such as the Portable Hole, screw with it. Not to mention if the bag is damaged or overloaded, the items inside are "scattered in the Astral Plane", which implies dimension shenanigans.



2) You cast Nystul's Magic Aura on a creature, in order to temporarily change its creature type to Fiend. You then cast Banishment on it. Does it go to Hell? Possibly permanently, if you Concentrate for the full duration?

2b) Can you use the Chains of Carceri Invocation on it?

The text for Nystul's Magic Aura states, "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment."


I would say yes, this absolutely works. The spell itself calls out Symbol as a spell that would be fooled by this "such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell.", and that is a 7th level spell. The only downside is it must be a willing creature, so you can't do stuff to enemies unless they're Charmed or something.

[AdAstra]

1) Ask your DM.

2) At least by my reading of the rules, it should not (though it is still up to the DM). The Mask effect specifies "You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell". While the second sentence kinda muddies the waters, the intent is clear. It is not intended to affect anything other than spells/abilities that "read" your creature type. Banishment doesn't look at your creature type, then "decide" to send you to this plane or that one, it kicks you out of the current plane, and you go to a plane based on your type. For example, if you were to unwittingly banish a devil disguised as a humanoid, your character wouldn't learn that that was a devil, they simply wouldn't appear again after a minute (assuming you maintained concentration)

[Yakk]

I'd be tempted to rule that immovable rods cannot be moved between planes, so the bag doesn't work on it. Unless you pull off the DC 30 strength check.

Similar to others answers, 'fiend' is a type not a planar origin. Banishment interacts with planar origin. (There are many planes than a "celestial", "undead" types etc can come from)

[kazaryu]

So, a couple odd questions popped into my head recently that I'd like a take or few on.

1) You set an Immovable Rod in place. You then slip a Bag of Holding around it. Can you move the bag?
This question hinges on whether or not you consider the internal dimension of the Bag to be a separate area that the Bag's opening is a portal to (and thusly, a "static" area, meaning you can "move" the Immovable Rod since it is now in a separate area).


huh. RaW i suppose technically it could. not that that would really matter allt hat much. if you can reach the immovable rod to put a bag around it, then you can also just...deactivate it


2) You cast Nystul's Magic Aura on a creature, in order to temporarily change its creature type to Fiend. You then cast Banishment on it. Does it go to Hell? Possibly permanently, if you Concentrate for the full duration?


as others have pointed out, its based on planar origin not creature type.



2b) Can you use the Chains of Carceri Invocation on it?

The text for Nystul's Magic Aura states, "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment."

uhhh, RaW its definitely a grey area. but i think probably it would work. although RaI, imo, its pretty clear based on flavor text that that isn't the intent. but i mean...if you can convince someone to let you cast nystuls magic aura just so that you're able to hit them with a hold monster then sure, why not. i mean, it'd probably be easier to just...learn the spell itself. but thats not always an option. i'd probably let it slide.

[HappyDaze]

Is it strange that you could have a "fiend" native to the Material?

This is setting dependent. Eberron has many fiends that are native to the material plane.

[gkathellar]

I haven't put much thought into the others yet, but I can say that Nystul's Magic Aura doesnt change what plane you're native to, only your creature type. Is it strange that you could have a "fiend" native to the Material? Sure. But native the target will still be, so Banishment will function as normal and they'll be sent to a demiplane and return when the concentration ends.

This. "Fiend" as a creature type doesn't imply that the creature is native to Hell - indeed, there are 7 whole Lower Planes that you'd have to arbitrarily choose between for purposes of the trick in question.

[CheddarChampion]

This. "Fiend" as a creature type doesn't imply that the creature is native to Hell - indeed, there are 7 whole Lower Planes that you'd have to arbitrarily choose between for purposes of the trick in question.

Is that 'the 7 hells' or 'hell vs the abyss vs whatever else'?
I agree with your point and I think it's stronger if it is the latter.
(Also depends on the setting. Eberron has the demon wastes or whatever - part of the material plane.)

[gkathellar]

Is that 'the 7 hells' or 'hell vs the abyss vs whatever else'?
I agree with your point and I think it's stronger if it is the latter.

The latter was my intent. The nine hells, infinite layers of the Abyss, Hades, Gehenna, Carceri, Acheron, and Pandemonium are all places that fiends come from.

[CheddarChampion]

The latter was my intent. The nine hells, infinite layers of the Abyss, Hades, Gehenna, Carceri, Acheron, and Pandemonium are all places that fiends come from.

9 hells, not 7, as you say.
I need to read more lore before I post, it seems!

[Grey Watcher]

OK, now I'm just imagining that, if you could use Nystul's Magic Aura to "convince" a Banishment spell that you're native to some other plane, you could break into Asmodeus's inner sanctum by appearing (to the forces of magic, at least) to be Asmodeus and thereby teleport straight to his inner sanctum. :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

Remember that Nystul's Magic Aura is illusion, not transmutation. It can make a Glyph of Warding think "Hey, that's one of those things that I'm supposed to zap!". It can make a paladin think "Hey, that's one of those things that I'm supposed to smite!". But it can't make the paladin's smite do extra damage, because the extra damage vs. fiends isn't something that you decide based on what you think the creature is.

[No brains]

On a similar note, would Magic Aura allow a creature to get past Forbiddance, Hallow, or magic circle? Would fooling detection matter to the warding effect?

Off topic, it's dumb that Hallow exists when so many fiends have at will Dispel Magic. A spell cast at 9th-level can be brute-force attacked by a Challenge 4 Babau...

[DarknessEternal]

NMA has no interaction with banishment. That is not a spell or ability that detects creature types.

[CheddarChampion]

OK, now I'm just imagining that, if you could use Nystul's Magic Aura to "convince" a Banishment spell that you're native to some other plane, you could break into Asmodeus's inner sanctum by appearing (to the forces of magic, at least) to be Asmodeus and thereby teleport straight to his inner sanctum. :smalltongue:

How about changing a creature into an undead and trying to establish control over it as a necromancer?

[DarknessEternal]

Am I taking crazy pills here? Are people not reading the actual spell? NMA doesn't change anything.

It fools detection spells and abilities, that's it.

[Phhase]

How about changing a creature into an undead and trying to establish control over it as a necromancer?

See, now THIS is the theorycrafting that gets me out of bed in the morning.


This. "Fiend" as a creature type doesn't imply that the creature is native to Hell - indeed, there are 7 whole Lower Planes that you'd have to arbitrarily choose between for purposes of the trick in question.

Huh. Odd. You know, that reminds me: What happened to the Outsider creature type? It used to be that Extraplanar things were usually Outsiders and the native plane was identified by alignment or subtypes, in which case if you marked someone as an "Outsider (Lawful Evil)", that would specifically identify them as a native of the Hells.

Another thing I thought of: If you change your type to, say, aberration, then would you be unable to be targeted by spells that specifically target your creature type (Such as Hold person)?

[No brains]

Am I taking crazy pills here? Are people not reading the actual spell? NMA doesn't change anything.

It fools detection spells and abilities, that's it.

Some of us are confused because we aren't sure if the spell detects type and then does something or just does something to a certain type. In my cases of Forbiddance, Hallow, and Magic Circle, would a creature be able to use Nystul's Magic Aura to fool the spell before entering, like a magic disguise and phony 'not a fiend' badge.

Thinking like a programmer, I'm wondering if the spells I'm worried about should work like this:
Check: Is creature a fiend? y/n
If y: keep out and apply penalties and stuff
If n: allow through

Or if they don't 'check' to see what it is that they are affecting and just manage to repel them naturally. Salt doesn't check to see if something's a slug before it burns.

As a DM, I can see a case being made for either system depending on the game I'm running. Should I reward/ encourage clever players to get their imp familiars to heist the grand temple? Do I want to let my players feel safe that they can hide in that temple from some hezrous or somethin'? Do I understand the consequences of edge cases to edge cases, like the spell expiring while still in a warded zone?

Though my take on Banishment is that it can't be fooled. Maybe I could introduce a special version of NMA that could fool it for story stuff, but as-written, it won't send things not from heck to heck.

As for the rod, I'd say it would take a DC 30 check to move it into bagspace. I imagine it functioning like it's stuck to its relative point in space and taking it through a portal would change the space it is in. Once in the bag, the bag can move.