DM help. Possibly Deadly Encounter. Looking for feedback.

[Nikushimi]

Hey there! I am currently DM'ing a 2nd edition game. The party has just reached an area with a possibly deadly encounter.

I want to preface this by saying they were not supposed to stay in the town that they are in nor go towards the encounter, but are rather supposed to be going to the north of this town, but due to circumstances the party became split, and 3 of 5 members decided to walk tow

However, just because they weren't supposed to stay or go towards what they shouldn't have, doesn't mean they won't. Characters and players are unpredictable, and I must attempt to adjust and adapt to their choices.

However, this choice is deadly if not done carefully, and it isn't being done carefully.

Conundrum
So, my conundrum is this.

Should I try and save them or let them fall to their own choices? I gave them all the hints that this is dangerous without trying to handhold them and that it was not a good idea.

There are several ways that they could have gone about this that wouldn't be as deadly, but this is not one of them.

Seasoned and veteran DM's or hell, even players, please chime in.

Should I allow them to fall to their own demise, playing the encounter how it would go, or adjust and change things to allow them to live?

I appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

[Lord Torath]

I would say, give them three obvious clues (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) that they are heading into something they can't handle. If they miss one of the clues (not just misinterpret, buy actually fail to encounter the clue at all), provide another one so they have encountered at least three. Also give them three clues about the less-deadly options they have for accomplishing their goal. After that, let them keep going and get killed if they so choose.

[Nikushimi]

I would say, give them three obvious clues (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) that they are heading into something they can't handle. If they miss one of the clues (not just misinterpret, buck actually fail to encounter the clue at all), provide another one so they have encountered at least three. Also give them three clues about the less-deadly options they have for accomplishing their goal. After that, let them keep going and get killed if they so choose.

Well, it was within the last hour of the session so we’ll see how next session goes.

But, I did give many clues to how dangerous this was.

People in the streets fighting over the leader of what I call “The Sisterhood”.

The Sisterhood enthralling everyone with but a simple smile and presence, no save.

Those who weren’t enthralled being afraid, deathly so.

The Church that the Sisterhood is based out of giving them, with a successful roll, an eerie and not good vibe.

One member of the Sisterhood effortlessly tossing a man to the ground.

The Sisterhood knowing they are being watched by the party.

The party splitting and one half of the party finding clerics in hiding and even they weren’t sure what was causing all this. These clerics were sent to investigate.

But, any additional clues to point to other ways to deal with this were thrown out the window because they didn’t even attempt anything other than trailing the Sisterhood. Which wasn’t bad but I didn’t expect them to enter once they found out they were being watched and were found out.

Two members trailed the Sisterhood, but were found out.

Heading straight to the church which was the obvious headquarters. The Sisterhood came from the church, the Sisterhood went back to the church. Everyone talked about the church.

Obvious headquarters.

They decided to just ask one question of an enthralled townsfolk and then went straight to the church. No finding the other members of the party, nothing.

Just straight to the church.

Perhaps I should explain the situation more but they are willing heading towards danger that I have given several clues to already.

And that’s my conundrum.

I can attempt to dissuade them again once they enter and hope they make a break for it but once they enter it’ll be hard to escape since inside the church is another plane of existence in a way. So not easy to leave.

The players in question I feel are playing their characters but it worries me they may end up mad I didn’t try harder to dissuade them but I don’t want to railroad them either.

Thus my conundrum.

[Lord Torath]

Perhaps have obvious guards outside the church? Lots of numerous, well-armed guards, with the promise of more inside? As soon as they are spotted, have them make eye-contact with the guards, and one goes inside to report the presence of the PCs inside, so they know they can't surprise them or sneak inside.

Other than that, it may just be time to roll up new characters (assuming you guys roll for stats, which isn't really that common these days, but 'time to point-buy new characters' lacks panache).

Edit: while this is a 2E game, it's not really an issue unique to 2nd Edition, so you could could post this question to the General Roleplaying forum. Or ask a mod to move it. Probably get more (and better) responses there. (Click on the triangle under your avatar near the very bottom of your post to report your post and ask them to move it for you)

[opaopajr]

I am sick, so this will be short. :smallredface:

I think you have beat them pretty well with the clue bat. Let them die. :smallcool: The most you can now otherwise do is show enthralled being in agony and/or debased with no known way to save them.

If you want to be nice, you can have them be enthralled and rendered as NPCs. Then as they write up new PCs, mention that rescue is possible for these PCs/NPCs later. :smallcool:

The game suddenly becomes interesting when actual failure becomes an option. :smallsmile:

Or you can always talk to players Out-of-Character, just to clear the air. :smallwink: Things like: "So what do you think you know of this 'Sisterhood'?"; "What sort of plan are you trying here?"; "What do you imagine is its success rate?"

You may be surprised of players' logic during an OOC feedback check. :smallsmile: If players are very new to your table they may be taking many things for granted from past tables. It is OK to disabuse them of their completely off-base assumptions.

[LibraryOgre]

Run it straight... but give them an out. Let them run away, get them captured, leave them for dead.

I agree with Lord Torath's "Three Clues" suggestion, though.

[Jay R]

Don't change the adventure, or it was never a real adventure in the first place. They go in. They lose. As they go unconscious, they see that nobody in the party is left to rescue them.

The sisterhood has no use for their bodies, so they revive them and sell them into slavery. They wake up chained to an oar.

It costs them all their possessions, and anything they left behind there, and anything they wanted to do there.

But they now have an opportunity to begin totally different adventures, involving escaping and taking over a ship.

[knag]

In my campaign, walking straight into danger without intelligence on the threat is deadly. I would allow them to die. This is AD&D, not 3.5e or 5e. Let them die, and roll up new characters. I agree with the comment that making failure an option is what makes the game interesting. You never know, they might surprise you and survive somehow!

[Nikushimi]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I was a bit worried in killing or making their characters NPC's. I perhaps should have explained more of the situation, but didn't want it to be too long going into details and was just wondering what other DM's would do if the party ignored all signs of danger and still proceeded.

But I'll say a few things just in case anyone has any other input based on that.

The Sisterhood wouldn't do slavery or anything except to make people slaves for themselves.

See, the leaders of the Sisterhood actually created the Sisterhood from those of extreme beauty from the coastal town they are in currently.

They have taken the majority of the town and enamored them completely, about 90-95% of the town is under their charms.

The Sisterhood is capable of making anyone with a lower Charisma score (Charisma 24) than them become passive and willing to do any suggestion that isn't life threatening (at least for Player Characters as the NPC's will fight for that smile, even to the death). So it's really hard to overcome. The highest Charisma in the party is 20.

Once they enter the Church they are going into they will enter a totally different plane of existence that the leaders were able to create over time as they inhabited the town.

They take the most beautiful (16 and up Charisma) as their own. Either killing, turning into statues, or keeping as pets to not only preserve their beauty but also "take" their beauty for themselves. So the Leaders are pretty damn good looking to the point of having the ability of a Nymph's and other abilities.

They also take those who intrigue them. Which is why when one of the party members made their save against a spell of theirs they were intrigued and decided to smile and make them follow them.

Their other companion broke them out of this trance. This is the 2nd time that they were shown the power of these beings smiles.

Both times they were completely helpless. Showing they can't resist the smile. Yet, they decide to enter the church anyways.

So I've given them plenty of warnings and signs of danger.

The entire town fighting for the affections of the Leader of the Sisterhood. Two times did the Sisterhood show the power of their smile to the party. Those that were not enamored in town were able to warn the party of the danger. The investigation that one of the players did garnered results that it was extremely dangerous and foreboding. Something was off and not right. Giving all clues that they needed to get away for now.

Yet two persist to enter. One begins to flirt with one of the Sisterhood. To preface this, the Sisterhood don't talk, and it's for a reason. Their smile can pacify you with how strong their charms are. Imagine if they talked...complete take over almost. Near impossible save, but I'll be seeing if they can do it.

The party is also around level 7-8, so they aren't weak by any means, but the charms are just that strong.

They might indeed find a way to survive, but that is if they do something BEFORE meeting the leaders. The one character has a Charisma of 6. If they see the leader it will be an extremely, if not impossible roll to overcome being completely subjugated to the leaders.

So, while they had no interest in the character with 6 Charisma he was also the one who made a spell save against them. Which intrigued them.

I guess we'll see by tomorrow how it all pans out for them! I'm gonna cut back to the 2 other party members who are being informed by a group of Clerics in hiding (those who came to investigate the town on account of brothers and sisters fighting one another). So I'm unsure if they will search and find their companions in time or not.

Thanks for the feedback and if this information allows a different opinion on what to do, I'm all ears. Thanks again!

P.s. Sorry if this was posted in the wrong forum. I simply saw "Older Editions like AD&D" and all that and thought this was the right place for a 2nd edition game help.

If this is in the wrong spot, and any mod can move it to the proper spot, I'd be appreciative.

[Lord Torath]

The highest Charisma in the party is 20.Dang! How'd your PCs get a charisma of 20 in 2E AD&D?


P.s. Sorry if this was posted in the wrong forum. I simply saw "Older Editions like AD&D" and all that and thought this was the right place for a 2nd edition game help.

If this is in the wrong spot, and any mod can move it to the proper spot, I'd be appreciative.This is the right place for 2nd Edition specific help (and other RPGs). Things where the rules for 2E will play a role with the answers you seek. If your question doesn't relate to the rules (and yours mostly doesn't), you can freely post it in the General roleplaying forum. This is not a bad place for your thread, and no one will complain if you put it here, but not many people frequent this sub-forum, so you tend to get more (and better) responses by posting on the General forum when you can.

[Incorrect]

Let it play out, and from how you described it they will die with no save.

But first I would leave one last obvious clue.

An NPC goes up to them, almost in a trance. He is hit very hard by the smile-effect.
Even if they dont engage him, he will blather on about how he is willing to die for the sisterhood ever since one of their members smiled at him. And that was just a junior member.
He heard that the higher members are even more beautiful.
He can not imagine Anyone(!) being able to resist that smile.

Take some time with this NPC to really hammer the point home.
After that, just play the dice as they roll, and kill them.

Note: What would happen if they went in blind? If this is an option, maybe hint that somehow.
Like a blind man who is not effected.

[Nikushimi]

Dang! How'd your PCs get a charisma of 20 in 2E AD&D?

In our current campaign the original DM is doing this experiment by having different people DM to see how people like others DM'ing. He started us out DM'ing our own city and the area around it. It's an interesting idea, but it can get confusing and conflicted at times.

But anyways, the original DM created their own version of the Deck of Many Things. A unique version. One of the cards raises a stat to 20. Our Pixie Thief drew that card when the original DM was running and so she currently has a Charisma of 20. So, that's how. The Deck of Many Things.



Let it play out, and from how you described it they will die with no save.

But first I would leave one last obvious clue.

An NPC goes up to them, almost in a trance. He is hit very hard by the smile-effect.
Even if they dont engage him, he will blather on about how he is willing to die for the sisterhood ever since one of their members smiled at him. And that was just a junior member.
He heard that the higher members are even more beautiful.
He can not imagine Anyone(!) being able to resist that smile.

Take some time with this NPC to really hammer the point home.
After that, just play the dice as they roll, and kill them.

Note: What would happen if they went in blind? If this is an option, maybe hint that somehow.
Like a blind man who is not effected.

Oh, I left them a lot of clues in terms of what the smile does.

They first entered town, and aside from our Pixie and Minotaur (because they were currently elsewhere with some undercover Clerics sent by the Capital), they saw a fight break out between two men.

This fight consisted of talking about "Her". Things like "She's mine damn it!" and "Her beauty is for me!" and stuff like that. This fight soon broke out into a five person brawl. Both men and women joined in.

They then, aside from our half dragon (who walked into the bar looking for this "beautiful woman" because that's where the two men came from) became pacified as the Sisterhood came into the center of town.

The barkeep wasn't affected as he has extremely strong willpower, brought the Half Dragon (With an 18 charisma) to a safe room. The barkeep explained the danger to him after everything passed over. Still, this Half Dragon decided to follow and then proceed to flirt with the Sisterhood despite being told the danger.

Anyways, during the Sisterhoods visit to the center of town, those who were outside (Our Swanmay and Alaghi....yeah, we use the Complete Humanoid Handbook for PC's sometimes) were instantly pacified as the Sisterhood entered the town center. They watched as the Sisterhood went around looking at everyone. When the smile passed over them they felt bliss and like they didn't want to cause any harm. Completely pacified.

They also watched as a young man was "chosen" and another man, in jealousy, attempted to attack this man to make him "uglier". Though the Sisterhood effortlessly tossed that man to the ground and walked away.

Once the Sisterhood left, the Alaghi and Swanmay (in a hawk form cause the original DM is the Alaghi and they have a specific thing going on between them. They were cursed kind of. One to be in animal form while the other takes human or normal form during different parts of the day, but anyways) the Alaghi asked someone what that was all about. Who he asked was one of the enthralled. He was told that they are their saviors. "Their our saviors. They will take us to paradise. Their leader is even more so than they are." alluding to the beauty of the leader.

The Alaghi and Swanmay decided to follow the Sisterhood. They are spotted, Alaghi makes his spell save to be turned away and so this intrigues them. They smile, he becomes instantly swayed and wants to follow them, but more peacefully.

The Swanmay eventually sees this and dives him to snap him out of it. When this happens, they find they are before the church, waiting to enter. The Swanmay is typically one to avoid danger without knowledge, but agrees with the Alaghi to enter the church.

Thus, the Half Dragon, Swanmay, and Alaghi begin entering the church. The Half Dragon got instantly charmed when he spoke to the member of the Sisterhood, completely ignoring any damage he took from the Swanmay in bird form. Still they persisted.
---

But, this story arc ended last Friday.

I ended up putting a time limit on when one of the Leaders would arrive. Rather, one of the sub leaders.

I ended up giving them all saves though...which they failed. They began turning into trees (one of the things that can happen to them).

Though, it ended up seemingly upsetting some players so, me feeling bad, I ended up allowing more saves than I should have and a lot of god calls until they finally got through to their deities.

I am a fairly new DM, and so learning what is and isn't okay is still a learning experience. You see, the Sisterhood and leaders all have this ability where saves against their charms are down at a negative based on the difference of Charisma. The Main leader I had as a Charisma of 30, Sub Leaders (her sisters, two of them) had 26-28 Charisma, and the members of the Sisterhood have 24. The original DM mentioned how 25 is the max stat for all stats no matter what. So I was like "Well...okay. Sorry."

Long story short, the Selune Cleric party member got a god call within 2%, and instead of just breaking their charms and letting them fend for themselves, this was the last time they would intervene and so shunted the party members who were in danger to the north of the city, away from danger.

I gave too many saves cause I felt bad and people seemed upset. I need to get better at just playing out my story arcs and the dangers with going in with no information or protections.

Thinking back on it, I believe Elves have a resistance to Charms and other effects, and the Selune Cleric was a Sylvan Elf. They also had 2 Drow members, but they ended up staying at the bar and drinking during everything...so they didn't really have any help.

Now I know for the future if I have a deadly encounter on how to better handle it.

I appreciate all of the feedback from everyone!

If anyone has any rules I could have used or could use in the future for such encounters let me know, but that is the end of that encounter. Thanks for all the help!

[Xervous]

The biggest gap seems to have been that of expectations. You had absolutely fearless players who couldn’t take a hint to save their characters’ lives. Did you make it clear beforehand that doing dumb stuff gets you dead with no handholding if someone wants to jump in lava?

[Telok]

I just keep going back to the bit where the barkeep explained the danger... and they ignored it.

So a rules oops and extra saves, thats just learning. I'm still doing those after decades of this stuff (less often, but it does still happen).

But players ignoring warnings from npcs and walking naked into death traps? I haven't found a cure for that yet. Seriously, NPC: "Here are written instructions to find the hidden room and disarm the trap" --> PC: "I set off the trap to see what it does" --> DM: "... then 20d6 crushing damage, then 20d6 fire damage, then you need to swim to the top of the lava, th-" PC: "I'm dead." DM: "You guys going to mine his corpse out after the lava cools?"