Late Level Dip for Monk?

[Yakmala]

I have a Monk that just picked up their Level 16 ASI and I'm considering if I want to stay Monk all the way to 20.

The quality of the level 17 Monastic Tradition varies. Were I an Open Hand Monk, I'd absolutely pick up Quivering Palm at 17, but I'm Long Death, and their Level 17 ability is a bit too Ki intensive for my tastes.

Empty Body at 18 is ok but not vital. The ASI at 19 would be nice, though I already have Dex and Wis maxed and have the Mobile feat. The Level 20 ability to gain 4 Ki each initiative if at zero is alright, but it's usefulness will vary from game to game depending on the frequency of short rests.

So, should I stick with Monk all the way to 20? More Ki points is never a bad thing, and I could pick up a Con ASI/Toughness for more HP or possibly Alert to let me get off stunning strikes early in the initiative order.

Alternately, I take a dip into something else. My Strength, Intelligence and Charisma scores do not qualify for multi-classing, so it would have to be a Dex/Con/Wis based multi-class dip.

Thoughts?

[djreynolds]

Do you ever use a bow? Archery style is nice.

Cleric for even the bless spell works. War cleric gives divine favor.

[LordNibbler]

I agree the capstone for monk isn’t so great.
A level of cleric might not be bad. Guidance and Bless are always useful. You’re not using your concentration for anything else. Alternatively, rogue 1 would give you Expertise in 2 skills (stealth and perception come to mind. Athletics is a good choice if you’re a grapple monk. Thieves tools can also be good if that’s your job in the party).
You could do one level in either of these and still get that last ASI.

[stoutstien]

Empty body is the Monk's capstone IMO. The ASI is ok and lv 20 is *sad trombone sounds*. I also say 1-2 lv of cleric is the way to go.

[Keravath]

War cleric 1 with access to divine favor twice a day shouldn't be underestimated if you want to bump the monk damage a bit. It adds d4 damage to every attack and requires a bonus action to cast only on the first round.

[AgenderArcee]

Worth noting that level 17 is when your Martial Arts die becomes a d10. Empty Body is pretty dang strong considering you'll be able to move and attack while invisible. Maybe grab two levels of Fighter for a Fighting Style, Second Wind and Action Surge?

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I would go rogue or fighter personally.

Rogue (Drunken Master Lite)

Sneak Attack
Cunning Action (no more wasting ki to dash or disengage.)
Expertise
Fancy Footwork from swashbuckler
Keep the ASI if you take it to 4


Fighter (Open Hand Lite)

Dueling Fighting Style
Action Surge (6 attempts to stung whoever you need to is pretty great.)
Battlemaster Maneuvers (Primarily Trip attack)


Cleric, Druid, and Ranger all have some interesting synergy as well but for me they don't quite fit how I play monks.

[Nidgit]

If you've got access to UA, both Revised Ranger and the newer Alternate Ranger are strong dip options. Otherwise, Fighter is probably the way to go for a dip.

Agree with everyone else saying go to at least 18 in Monk though.

[J-H]

I would definitely agree with Fighter for Action Surge and a Fighting Style. See if your DM would allow Dueling to apply to unarmed strike, for +2 damage on all your hits. A versatile monk weapon, such as the Quarterstaff, would also qualify for Great Weapon mastery, allowing you to reroll any 1s or 2s. You would be using your martial arts damage (1d10) for the Qstaff base damage, so Qstaff damage would be 3-10 (1d8+2) instead of 1d10. It's not quite as good of a bonus as Dueling to UAS, but it's still a bump over time.

If your DM doesn't make monk weapons, then a magic Qstaff is also good for getting you +to hit and damage.

[kazaryu]

I have a Monk that just picked up their Level 16 ASI and I'm considering if I want to stay Monk all the way to 20.

The quality of the level 17 Monastic Tradition varies. Were I an Open Hand Monk, I'd absolutely pick up Quivering Palm at 17, but I'm Long Death, and their Level 17 ability is a bit too Ki intensive for my tastes.

Empty Body at 18 is ok but not vital. The ASI at 19 would be nice, though I already have Dex and Wis maxed and have the Mobile feat. The Level 20 ability to gain 4 Ki each initiative if at zero is alright, but it's usefulness will vary from game to game depending on the frequency of short rests.

So, should I stick with Monk all the way to 20? More Ki points is never a bad thing, and I could pick up a Con ASI/Toughness for more HP or possibly Alert to let me get off stunning strikes early in the initiative order.

Alternately, I take a dip into something else. My Strength, Intelligence and Charisma scores do not qualify for multi-classing, so it would have to be a Dex/Con/Wis based multi-class dip.

Thoughts?

ok, so, obviously idk what multiclasses you qualify for. so imma make some suggestions assuming you qualify for the given class, but also assuming that (unless its wis/dex) you don't have a high enough ability score to make good use of that classes primary stat. so the ideas i propose are going to be related to potential benefits not related to primary stats.

Barb- now, pretty much the only thing you gain from going barb (besides a couple extra HP per level) is the damage resistance. however, that is still a pretty massive boon, doubling down on it at level 3 with totem barb, even moreso.

Figher- action surge isn't as good on a monk as it would be on a class thats more focused on their action (as opposed to bonus actions) but its still action surge, its never a detriment.
some minor healing 1/rest (more effective HP! yay! duelist fighting style wouldn't be too bad, although RaW i don't think it'd apply to unarmed attacks, so realistically it could only be used for your 2 action attacks (DM might say otherwise though). archery fighting style thought would probably be better, just in case you need that ranged attack, it'd probably come in more handy.
then for subclasses: champion-extended crit range is never a bad thing for a class thats attack action focused
battlemaster: maneuvers that don't rely on your str (like riposte and commanders strike) are gonna be pretty solid
EK: limited access to shield/absorb elements. probably not quite as tanky as barb would be, but absorb elements also benefits your damage so...

warlock: darkness/devil sight baby.

cleric: various solid cleric choices both in subclass and in their spell selection. *hold person* could be solid, although difficult to maintain long enough to get the 4 autocrits off with. but war/tempest cleric channel divinities (and their lvl 1 features) are really what you're after.

druid: could be contentious: if your DM lets you flurry in animal form..i mean, why not, its an extra bag of HP. also some casting is never a bad thing.

rogue: up to an extra 2d6 damage per turn, free BA dash/disengage. expertise on whatever you want (athletics/acrobatics is probably overall teh best choice for combat).

[Vorpalchicken]

I would at least go to 18 for Empty Body. I got an Open Hand monk to 20 but decided to take 1 level of Divine Soul (need 13 Cha so may not be an option.) I just found it was more useful than 1 level of Cleric. Favored by the Gods is every short rest. And the Spell casting Mod was not relevant since I only used Bless, Shield, Absorb Elements and non combat cantrips. Of course if you want Sacred Flame to stick then maybe go Cleric. But come on, you're a Monk.

[CTurbo]

It would be helpful to know your playstyle and what type of campaign you're playing in.

The most important question is, after 16 levels, what is your character missing? Is there anything in particular that you wish you could do better? Any specific weaknesses to shore up?

Not knowing the answer to any of those questions, I think I'd stick with Monk to 20. Perfect Self is not flashing, but it's not bad either. Just make sure you don't end combat with only 1 or 2 ki. I don't think it's a coincidence that Perfect Self allows you to at least have the option to use Empty Body every combat. Touch of the Long Death is situational but decent. Being able to deal 20d10 Necro damage is at least a nice option to have.

You have a lot of really nice options with the Level 19 ASI/feat

1. Alert. It's good on anybody for obvious reasons.
2. Lucky. Also good on anybody. One of the greatest late feat pickups possible IMO.
3. Magic Initiate. Another feat that's great on anybody whether or not you're upping your utility, out of combat usefulness, scouting, ranged damage, etc... This feat alone can give you most of what you would get from a Cleric dip. Guidance, Sacred Flame, and Bless
4. Ritual Caster. Similar to Magic Initiate, it really boosts your utility and out of combat usefulness. Find Familiar is good enough on it's own, and by this level, you should be able to learn a whole lot of rituals.
5. Defensive Duelist. Not sure what weapon you've been using, but by level 19, they all hit the same so switch to a dagger or short sword, and now you have a really great way to use your Reaction to make you're even harder to hit.
6. Tough. Not a bad choice, but unless your Con is below 14, I don't think I'd worry about hit points as Long Death Monks are already hard enough to kill
7. Racial feat. I don't believe you dais what race you are, but many of the racial feats are really good. It's worth a look if available.


I do like a couple dips for Monks though if this is the route you want to take.

1. Fighter 2. Dueling or Archery style, Second Wind, and ACTION SURGE. High level Monks with Action Surge can move like 765000 feet in a round or something lol or just rattle off 6 straight attacks.
2. Fighter 3. Same as above plus either the Champion's double crit range, Battle Master's maneuvers, or the Brute's extra 1d4 damage per hit are best bets.
3. Scout Rogue 3. Skirmisher is extremely fun and strong on high level Monks. You can move up to like 30-35ft without worrying about opportunity attacks if an enemy ends it's turn next to you. Also Expertise in Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, etc.. Cunning Action is great and 2d6 extra sneak damage is nice too assuming you're using a qualified weapon.
4. Ranger 3. This is even better if you can use the UA Revised version. You'll know exactly which Favored Enemy to choose by now, Archery or Dueling style, Hunter's Mark, Natural Explorer, and Gloom Stalker's extra darkvision, extra initiative, and first round extra attack, damage, and movement are all great for Monks. Hunter for Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker is great too.
5. Light Cleric 1. A single level of Light Cleric gets you Bless, Faerie Fire, Guidance, Sacred Flame, and really really useful way to use your reaction to force disadvantage on attacks against you 5 times per day.
6. Moon Druid 2. This is mainly for scouting and utility, but could be useful for combat depending on how your DM rules Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts while in wildshape.

[HiveStriker]

I have a Monk that just picked up their Level 16 ASI and I'm considering if I want to stay Monk all the way to 20.

The quality of the level 17 Monastic Tradition varies. Were I an Open Hand Monk, I'd absolutely pick up Quivering Palm at 17, but I'm Long Death, and their Level 17 ability is a bit too Ki intensive for my tastes.

Empty Body at 18 is ok but not vital. The ASI at 19 would be nice, though I already have Dex and Wis maxed and have the Mobile feat. The Level 20 ability to gain 4 Ki each initiative if at zero is alright, but it's usefulness will vary from game to game depending on the frequency of short rests.

So, should I stick with Monk all the way to 20? More Ki points is never a bad thing, and I could pick up a Con ASI/Toughness for more HP or possibly Alert to let me get off stunning strikes early in the initiative order.

Alternately, I take a dip into something else. My Strength, Intelligence and Charisma scores do not qualify for multi-classing, so it would have to be a Dex/Con/Wis based multi-class dip.

Thoughts?
Honestly? My gut feeling would be "go all the way to 20".
Not as a "doing otherwise is bad" assertion, not at all.
Just as the combined result of several "more or less accessory" considerations.
- Empty Body is ihmo much more useful overall than what you seem to think, but I'm not in your game so maybe your experience tells that for you invisibility and all damage resistance for 4 Ki is safely skippable. :)
- There are many great feats to grab as a Monk whether your importants stats are maxed or not: Mobile may not be that worthy at your level (I mean, I think it is but I understand other opinions), but indeed Alert can be a great way to improve chance of Stunning dangerous guy before it even acts, you could also improve your utility with Observant or Magic Initiate, or pick a racial feat... Toughness is indeed a good choice. Mage Slayer, although situational by essence, is absolutely devastating when coming into play, *especially* on a Monk.

- Level 20 capstone is indeed of varying effectiveness, and if you feel in your games your party usually manages to secure short rests when needed, then it can be seen as useless.
- Level 20 instead of 17 means 3 more Ki points: same as above: if you feel you rarely get lacking in resources, it's not an argument. Otherwise it definitely is.

Putting all those small reasons aside, working on the idea of a dip, lets consider options (for once, not necessarily in order from best to worse, completely in disorder ;))...

1. Druid is always a great choice for 2 or 3 level dips: Moon 2 can be used, like for pure Druids, as a panic button, but that's not the main deal: main deal is getting hands on a bunch of good utility spells to buff you or have relevant things to do outside of combat (especially scouting). If you're not fancying Wild Shape, then Coast Druid may be nice for Mirror Image, but the best would probably be Shepherd instead: Bear aura to help all melee on Grapple -you included- and 8 THP is always a good thing, Unicorn to make you a great emergency mass healer, especially considering you can pull back everyone up with a single Healing Words as the last survivor of a heavy AOE ability, which is far from improbable when facing high CR enemies considering you'd have Diamond Soul and possibly active Empty Body).

2.Cleric, especially Nature (cantrip, animal rituals), Light (defensive reaction) and Grave (Channel Divinity to ensure enemy dies of your Quivering Palm, *even if he saves***) are potent: you can Bless yourself, spare a few emergency heals from your main healer especially since you also "max-heal" from 0, and otherwise also discharge him of some useful ritals (like for Druid).
Trickery is also a decent choice: Duplicate can be useful if you tend to get fast in the middle of things but afterwards not move much, as it is a reliable way to generate advantage for the cost of a bonus action. More importantly, you get Pass Without Trace which is great for party, and Mirror Image which is great for yourself (especially if DM would allow Dodge's disadvantage to be applied if a mirror image is targeted instead: no idea what RAW/RAI/common ruling is here, check with your DM if you'd be interested).

** Sorry, big mistake on my part, doesn't work at all on RAW since it's vulnerability "on next attack". Only way to work would be two houserules.
- Either DM allows to consider that although it's delayed damage, it's still the unarmed attack that "provides" it (honestly, even per ROC, I myself wouldn't probably dare to open that can of worms).
- Or DM allows to consider that if you Ready the "activate" action to make it right at the time someone else makes an attack, it "agregates" the Quivering palm damage
(thinking about it, it's possibly even a worse kind of can of worms here XD).

3. Fighter: obvious Battlemaster one, with Trip Attack (generate advantage), Precision Attack (give a higher chance to attempt a Stunning Strike) and Evasive Footwork (work wondrous on a Monk with a decent roll + Dodge to make enemy waste OA on you instead of allies while you run to their backline). Plus Archery style and proficiencies so you are good at long range, Action Surge for even higher nova, *especially the Quivering Palm one* (Action Surge Attack, Action "activate", enjoy). Plus it's short rest. Samuraï would be decent, but its feature is long-rest one, which is a big deal ime. Cavalier's feature requires bonus action and is STR mod times, so completely out. Eldricht Knight is always good in void, but only 2 Shield per day seems lackluster to me. And you'll rarely prefer cantrip to weapon attacks normally...

4. Rogue: Expertise in Atlhetics/Perception/Stealth is always good, Cunning Action even at your level can still mean a decent amount of spared Ki (of course you're the only one that can judge how much ^^), and Assassin (if ambushing is a thing in your party), Swashbuckler (if you don't have Mobile) and Scout (Skirmisher is nice) are decent. Sneak Attack is completely forgettable though, unless you go Swash maybe.

5. Ranger: Good, but not necessarily great, overall same "level" as Rogue: Ranger has many great spells but 3 times a day is very few, you do get Archery but it's not enough to justify 2 levels either, so it's really up to the two following. a) Benefits of a Favored Terrain/Enemy are things you feel would be usable often in your campaign. b) You really like the archetype benefits: Hunter (extra attack against close enemy, should work easily enough with your mobility), Gloomstalker (extra Initiative -although you could just pick Alert- plus extra speed and extra weapon attack -always nice), Monster Slayer (no need for Arcana/Religion/Nature check neither metagame to know about weaknesses).

Overall, considering on top of all that that you enjoyed a purely martial character so far (meaning you never felt like you were missing utility/spellcasting), I'd say the three best choices for you are probably...

1. Battlemaster Fighter: ability to set and activate Quivering Palm reliably (Precision Attack) FTW. Plus the fact Action Surge can also be used "simply" for a nova round of SS attempts.
And it's short rest, perfect harmony with your core class features. :)

2. Shepherd Druid: its Aura feature is still -very- relevant even at that level, even with only "Druid level = 2-3" (especially the "mass emergency heal" use-case ^^), and if you push to 3 being able to provide party with Pass Without Trace, Healing Words or Enhance Ability is always solid, even if only twice per day.

3. Grave Cleric: at your level party, whether it's you* or another, there will be certainly people that will have a use for a forced vulnerability on a single damage instance (Paladin, Rogue, Whisper Bard, caster Disintegrate, etc). Plus if you can get someone to Haste you, you can still set up and activate Quivering Palm in the same turn (Haste Attack, regular action "activate").
You also get bonus action ranged Spare the Dying, which is sometimes enough, and Bless/Shield of Faith/Healing Words/ Sanctuary for emergency or big battle.
* Sorry, I forgot an important limitation of Grave's CD: vulnerability applies to the damage of "the next attack": technically Quivering Palm's damage is happening *after*, so considering it works would definitely be a DM's house Rule of Cool.
For that reason, I put actually Cleric in third position instead of second, unless you have a "high-nova damage on single attack" guy in your party, in which case it's definitely a top pick.

A decent 4th would be Rogue for Expertise in Stealth if you'd like to murder people quietly (great with Empty Body ^^).

EDIT: And for those three options, both picking 2 or 3 levels are equally good, so if you're in doubt whether to renounce Empty Body or not, you can always decide it last.
Although honestly I'd pick it without any ounce of hesitation, *especially on a Open Hand Monk* which can murder many people with little effort. While you can always try to "hide" a set-up unarmed strike as something else, it's hard to pull (after all, you *are* making an *attack* hard to not be seen as hostile). If you're invisible? Muuuuuch easier. XD

-------------------- EDIT 2: bouncing on some thread suggestions -------



Barb- now, pretty much the only thing you gain from going barb (besides a couple extra HP per level) is the damage resistance. however, that is still a pretty massive boon, doubling down on it at level 3 with totem barb, even moreso.

Which makes it the perfect example of a trap choice, considering Empty Body gives you that and more, multiples times more per day, without the rage limitations, for a single level more.
Even Danger Sense is overall redundant considering Monk has Evasion and Diamond Soul.
Barb brings absolutely 0 value here.



2. Lucky. Also good on anybody. One of the greatest late feat pickups possible IMO.
3. Magic Initiate. Another feat that's great on anybody whether or not you're upping your utility, out of combat usefulness, scouting, ranged damage, etc... This feat alone can give you most of what you would get from a Cleric dip. Guidance, Sacred Flame, and Bless
4. Ritual Caster. Similar to Magic Initiate, it really boosts your utility and out of combat usefulness. Find Familiar is good enough on it's own, and by this level, you should be able to learn a whole lot of rituals.
5. Defensive Duelist. Not sure what weapon you've been using, but by level 19, they all hit the same so switch to a dagger or short sword, and now you have a really great way to use your Reaction to make you're even harder to hit.

Notes on those...
2. Lucky is imo one of the most overrated feats: of course, it can help land an attack, but imo a feat like Alert would overall bring more value simply on the assertion it gives you more chance to prevent the enemy to act by allowing you higher chance to attempt a stun before its first turn.
Of course, you could also argue that Lucky could be used "against" a sad Initiative roll, which is fair enough. :)

3. Magic Initiate feels kinda low value for me at that level, Booming Blade is nice but unless you're Ki-hungry you'll probably pair Attack + Flurry usually, utility cantrips like Minor Illusion or Mold Earth can be very useful but OP didn't feel any lack for them for 17 levels, so not sure it's worth picking them for a try now (maybe Guidance *could* be nice), and one Shield/Longstrider/Bless per day feels weak.

4. Ritual Caster can be extremely good if a) OP has other casters in party and b) those other casters are not Wizard (doesn't need to prepare) neither Bard (kinda too late), but Cleric or Druid. In that case OP could take the responsability of all rituals that pal has, freeing a handful of "prepared slots" without hampering party utility.

5. Defensive Duelist is solid in void since at that level it's a +6 AC... But it's a reaction against a single attack. I'm not sure, at that level, the number of times the Monk is in a situation where he faces multiple attacks but only one will be really threatening happens often.
From what I can project into, the two main cases would be...
- Monk is swarmed by mooks and can't/doesn't want to simply escape: in which case I'd argue Empty Body + Dodge as bonus action should be largely enough, as I categorize "mooks" as "being not high enough CR to see invisible creatures".
- Monk tries to duel with a single powerful creature, which means usually one that has at the very least 4 or 5 attacks. In that case, DD can make a difference only if Monk already had Dodge as bonus action (I put EB aside since nearly all CR 18+ creatures don't care about invisibility).
So I agree it's a nice choice if OP wants to act as an off-tank and is regularly using Dodge. Otherwise, other feats suggested in thread are probably better overall.