Balance implications of giving Sorcerer a couple more spells known

[bendking]

Or, giving the Sorcerer the same amount of spells known as a Bard (not including Magical Secrets).
The solution is to simply give Sorcerer two more spells known at level 1, such as a Bard, and then continuing the progression as usual, disregarding the "adjusting for Magical Secrets" wonkiness.

What do ya'll think? The more I think about this tweak the more I feel like it's a good one.
It isn't as extreme as Spell Points, nor Origin Spells (which I like better), what it does do is it lets Sorcerers a little more room to breath by getting a couple of spells that aren't spell-tax nor must-have-metamagic combos.

Could this have some balance implications I'm not thinking of? Is this OP for some reason?

EDIT: Just to clarify: I'm not here to argue class balance, I'm simply asking whether this tweak is somehow bigger than what I think it is.

[Bobthewizard]

I love this idea.

The Bard table works great until level 10, then the bard numbers get wonky to account for magical secrets. I would use the sorcerer numbers but just give 2 more spells known at level 1 and one more at level 12.

Just to take shield, absorb elements and mage armor the sorcerer needs more spells at first level.

[bendking]

I love this idea.

The Bard table works great until level 10, then the bard numbers get wonky to account for magical secrets. I would use the sorcerer numbers but just give 2 more spells known at level 1 and one more at level 12.

Just to take shield, absorb elements and mage armor the sorcerer needs more spells at first level.

That's what I meant. I honestly didn't notice the wonky numbers at level 10 and above. I wouldn't even necessarily give one more at level 12.

[micahaphone]

The Xanathar introduced two new subclasses that get one free thematic spell (divine soul depending on alignment, shadow gets darkness),I don't think giving 2 extra spells will do much more than what some published subclasses already do.

[J-H]

The Sorcerer gets 1 spell per levelup until level 12, at which point it switches to a 1 per 2 progression. In low to mid level games, it's irrelevant.
In high level games, it adds flexibility.... but not much, because the sorc still only has 1 8th level and 1 9th level slot per day.

Sorcerers can also gain additional spells to use through the use of spell scrolls, wands, and other items (albeit not necessarily at-will). In the game I'm running, the party sorcerer is going to have Telekinesis 1/day from a rod, and he's going to have a Wand of Lightning (DMG item) fairly soon. He's also taken Spell Sniper (for Eldritch Blast) and the other feat that gives a 1/day 1st level spell (for Ice Knife, which he barely uses).

[JNAProductions]

It would make Sorcerers a mite stronger (depending on spells given) but more than that, more versatile.

It's unlikely to break anything, unless you give them spells like Foresight that were never meant to be Twinned.

[Theaitetos]

It would make Sorcerers a mite stronger (depending on spells given) but more than that, more versatile.

It's unlikely to break anything, unless you give them spells like Foresight that were never meant to be Twinned.

He doesn't mean adding more spells to the Sorcerer spell list, he means adding more "Spells Known", i.e. the number of spells a sorcerer can cast. For example, a level 1 Sorcerer can just "prepare" 2 different spells (usually Shield and Mage Armor), a Wizard of the same level usually prepares 4 different spells.

p.s.: Sorcerers already got Foresight in the new Class Features Variants UA.



I don't think it breaks anything at all. However, I would prefer thematic spells. Maybe even thematic spells that aren't sorcerer spells (e.g. Elemental Bane for Draconic Sorcerers) just like Domain spells work for clerics.

[JNAProductions]

He doesn't mean adding more spells to the Sorcerer spell list, he means adding more "Spells Known", i.e. the number of spells a sorcerer can cast. For example, a level 1 Sorcerer can just "prepare" 2 different spells (usually Shield and Mage Armor), a Wizard of the same level usually prepares 4 different spells.

p.s.: Sorcerers already got Foresight in the new Class Features Variants UA.



I don't think it breaks anything at all. However, I would prefer thematic spells. Maybe even thematic spells that aren't sorcerer spells (e.g. Elemental Bane for Draconic Sorcerers) just like Domain spells work for clerics.

Ah. My bad.

Then I see no issues.

[Amechra]

It should work out just fine - as it stands, Sorcerers and Warlocks have spells known that are roughly equal to 1 + 3/4 * level. You could probably replace that 1 with their Charisma for both classes without any issues. If you're doing that, you might as well change Bards to have the same spells known (with extra spells known for Magical Secrets at the appropriate levels).

As it stands, Sorcerers potentially have fewer spells known than a Warlock (counting Invocation-granted 1/rest spells as spells known, of course). Giving them more spells known would make them more versatile without necessarily making them stronger (because presumably you took the best spells you could in the first place).

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think it's a fairly common house rule among sorcerer house rulers to give extra thematic spells at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th, so giving them two extra at 1st should hardly be too much.

[Aidamis]

I think it's a fairly common house rule among sorcerer house rulers to give extra thematic spells at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th, so giving them two extra at 1st should hardly be too much.

Sounds good! folks like Divine Soul Sorcerers could really use this :)

[LudicSavant]

If you think the Sorcerer spells known progression is frustrating at low levels, hoo boy is it unpleasant at high levels (they only get 4 spells known over their last TEN levels). Doesn't really help that that's the period the Wizard, rather than slowing their progression down, starts kicking everything into overdrive (this is when they start getting big exclusives like Simulacrum, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc).

[CapnWildefyr]

If you think the Sorcerer spells known progression is frustrating at low levels, hoo boy is it unpleasant at high levels (they only get 4 spells known over their last TEN levels). Doesn't really help that that's the period the Wizard, rather than slowing their progression down, starts kicking everything into overdrive (this is when they start getting big exclusives like Simulacrum, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc).

Op: 2 spells known overall isn't a deal breaker.
LudicSavant: not sure what you mean by 'kicking everything into overdrive'? The rate for gaining Spells known for a wizard doesn't change-it's controlled by what you can find and encounter, +2 each level. The power of those spells relative to other classes is a different topic. But yes, it does not slow down whereas sorcerer does.

[Amechra]

If I was playing a sorcerer at your table, I”d be okay with this change so long as I could ignore it and play a normal sorcerer.

I'm curious as to why? It's not like bendking is removing anything from the class, or giving the Sorcerer crazy amounts of extra stuff.

[Spiritchaser]

It would make Sorcerers a mite stronger (depending on spells given) but more than that, more versatile.

It's unlikely to break anything, unless you give them spells like Foresight that were never meant to be Twinned.

One of the worst parts of sorcerer design is the exclusion of spells like foresight that would, for one reason or another, particularly benefit from metamagic.

More spells known is fine to a point (just don’t add too many) but the right spells known is even more important.

Foresight should be a sorcerer spell. At that level there is nothing broken about twinning it, if that is what you wish to be good at.

There may be excessively strong metamagic interaction with some spells, but nothing comes immediately to mind, Hobbling metamagic by prohibiting strong interactions is a key problem with the sorcerer. A large measure of its strength is tied up in metamagic, and many of the spells that metamagic would be interesting with are verboten

[stoutstien]

A house rule I've used is I allow sorcerer to gain a number of flex spells known equal to their Cha modifier. So the gain up to 5 extra spells know that can be changed out everyday like prepared spells.

[LudicSavant]

LudicSavant: not sure what you mean by 'kicking everything into overdrive'? It means that the Wizard's power curve starts accelerating around tier 3 / 4 due to a bevy of game-changing features.

The reason I say that Wizards kick it into overdrive at high levels isn't because of rate of spells known. It's just the overall package. That said...


The rate for gaining Spells known for a wizard doesn't change-it's controlled by what you can find and encounter

In practice, this means it often does change. Per DMG guidelines (and common practice) what you can find and encounter generally increases as you level up, in a way that effectively benefits the Wizard's spell access.

But the point was that the Sorcerer's spells known is slowing down dramatically when the Wizard's isn't, and the Wizard's overall package is speeding up.

[Theaitetos]

Another idea is to give sorcerers a feature that allows them to cast spells they receive from their race, feats, or items. For example, allowing a Drow sorcerer to cast Darkness as a sorcerer spell once he can cast it with his racial trait.

I also think many people overestimate the power of metamagic, because they always think about every possible spell combination possible. Yet the reality is that a sorcerer usually has to choose spells without regards to metamagic, either because the party needs you to have certain spells or because these spells are so powerful & versatile that you endup weakened if you don't take them.

These mandatory spells (e.g. Fireball) rarely work with the metamagic of your choice – or with any metamagic at all (e.g. Shield, Absorb Elements, …). It's eerily normal for a sorcerer at early levels never to use any of his metamagics, simply because he doesn't know any spells that work with his metamagics.

So more spells known would go a long way to allow a sorcerer to make proper use of his special skills.