Balance implications of giving Sorcerer the entire Wizard list?

[bendking]

As a continuation of my previous post...
What do ya'll think? Would this break something? It would surely make some awesome metamagic combos, but I can't think of anything too game breaking.

[MrStabby]

As a continuation of my previous post...
What do ya'll think? Would this break something? It would surely make some awesome metamagic combos, but I can't think of anything too game breaking.

I have considered this as part of the generalisation of the divine soul. In that context it was pick a class and you get their spells counted as sorcerer spells. Of course wizard gets a much bigger list but there is such an overlap with the sorcerer that the actual increase is more modest.

Is it game breaking? Well there are a few things like foresight at high levels, but mostly the worry is not one big combo or one single interaction but the effect of four or five different spells that cumulatively push up the power of an already very powerful class. Instead of a focussed caster that has traded versatility for speciality you can get just a couple of spells like wall of force, fabricate or bigby's hand that can excell in a lot of situations.

So yes, a huge power boost, not good for the game but not down to a single combination but rather due to the cumulative effect of a lot of different spells.

[bendking]

I have considered this as part of the generalisation of the divine soul. In that context it was pick a class and you get their spells counted as sorcerer spells. Of course wizard gets a much bigger list but there is such an overlap with the sorcerer that the actual increase is more modest.

Is it game breaking? Well there are a few things like foresight at high levels, but mostly the worry is not one big combo or one single interaction but the effect of four or five different spells that cumulatively push up the power of an already very powerful class. Instead of a focussed caster that has traded versatility for speciality you can get just a couple of spells like wall of force, fabricate or bigby's hand that can excell in a lot of situations.

So yes, a huge power boost, not good for the game but not down to a single combination but rather due to the cumulative effect of a lot of different spells.

Just as a note, Foresight was already added to the spell list of the Sorcerer in the recent UA, and I for one think it's a good thing they have a powerful spell to Twin late-game.

[MrStabby]

Just as a note, Foresight was already added to the spell list of the Sorcerer in the recent UA, and I for one think it's a good thing they have a powerful spell to Twin late-game.

I don't actually know any table that uses unearthed arcana; most seem to consider UA to be sufficiently unpolished that a judgement call by those at the table is a better option.

[bendking]

I don't actually know any table that uses unearthed arcana; most seem to consider UA to be sufficiently unpolished that a judgement call by those at the table is a better option.

I think tables use the recent UA more than other UAs. My table does, and we don't use any other UA. It feels way better and more thought out than other UAs.
Anyway, Wizards get Simulacrum, Contingency, Wall of Force, and other ludicrous spells at a lower level, I'm not worried about Sorcerers being able to twin Foresight at level 17 at the cost of (more than) half their SP.

[MrStabby]

I think tables use the recent UA more than other UAs. My table does, and we don't use any other UA. It feels way better and more thought out than other UAs.
Anyway, Wizards get Simulacrum, Contingency, Wall of Force, and other ludicrous spells at a lower level, I'm not worried about Sorcerers being able to twin Foresight at level 17 at the cost of (more than) half their SP.


Yeah, but that's wizards. If you ever find yourself having to compare something to the wizard class to justify a buff it is pretty strong evidence it doesn't need one.

The UA that I have seen used most is the one on complex traps. That's gold.

[bendking]

Yeah, but that's wizards. If you ever find yourself having to compare something to the wizard class to justify a buff it is pretty strong evidence it doesn't need one.

The UA that I have seen used most is the one on complex traps. That's gold.

I should have clarified that I meant out of the UAs that have to do with classes and sub-classes.

[Merudo]

As a continuation of my previous post...
What do ya'll think? Would this break something? It would surely make some awesome metamagic combos, but I can't think of anything too game breaking.

I don't know about high levels, but the most noticeable spell additions would probably be:

- Find Familiar
- Grease
- Black Tentacles
- Resilient Sphere
- Bigby's Hand
- Contingency
- Wall of Force
- Simulacrum
- Clone

[Bobthewizard]

I wouldn't allow both the wizard list and spell versatility. That combination gives them all of the wizard downtime spells at no cost. They can just change their spells back after casting contingency, simulacrum, antipathy, planar binding, clone, demiplane and glyph of warding. If you allow both of these abilities, there is no point to playing a wizard anymore. Your sorcerer is now a wizard with metamagic and is much more powerful than a wizard.

If you don't allow spell versatility, though, then opening up the wizard list is probably ok since there is a cost to taking downtime spells of having less other prepared spells.

[Theaitetos]

I don't know about high levels, but the most noticeable spell additions would probably be:

- Grease

Grease has been added to sorcerer spell list in the UA Class Feature Variants, as well.

[Habber_Dasher]

I wouldn't give them quite everything. I think certain spells that are unique to the wizard like find familiar, wall of force, simulacrum, and anything that starts with 'Mordenkainen' should continue being omitted from the sorcerer list. As for everything else, why not? Sorcerers have very few spells known, so adding more choices isn't a huge jump in power. Plus, this would add some spells that work well with some underused metamagics. I'm thinking combos like bestow curse and distant spell, or transmute rock and careful spell.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I don't think this'd break anything. As has been pointed out, there are some nice twinnable Wizard spells, but any through 7th level are eventual twinnable anyways through sufficient Sorcerer MCing, without game-breaking consequences. Also, given the Sorcerer list's dearth of unique spells, I always found it weird how many Wizard spells it was missing. When introduced to core in 3e (with radically different mechanics), the Sorcerer basically had an identical spell list to the Wizard, so much so that they were listed as Sorc./Wiz. spells. Thematically, I'm okay with certain spells that have a strong feeling of preparation instead of spontaneity (such as Clone) or newly-researched spells (Rary's Telepathic Bond) staying Wizard-only. However, I'd also allow Sorcerer characters with sufficient downtime to practice to "reverse-engineer" some of the newly-researched spells if they saw them first, just through their innate ties to the weave.

[jaappleton]

While still having a d6 hit die (so it’s still not a wise idea to use it), they’d have Vampiric Touch. If Twinned, that’s pretty good, but also you have to touch the targets. Which could easily be a death sentence anyway.

[SLOTHRPG95]

While still having a d6 hit die (so it’s still not a wise idea to use it), they’d have Vampiric Touch. If Twinned, that’s pretty good, but also you have to touch the targets. Which could easily be a death sentence anyway.

Putting aside that yes, this is an incredibly reckless tactic: Vampiric Touch has a range of Self and hence is not a valid target of Twin Spell metamagic.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

While still having a d6 hit die (so it’s still not a wise idea to use it), they’d have Vampiric Touch. If Twinned, that’s pretty good, but also you have to touch the targets. Which could easily be a death sentence anyway.

Vampiric touch is ineligible for twin unfortunately. It targets you and then you gain a new action.

I need to remember to check the replies before posting if it's been a hot minute *ninja'd

[jaappleton]

Putting aside that yes, this is an incredibly reckless tactic: Vampiric Touch has a range of Self and hence is not a valid target of Twin Spell metamagic.

Quickened, then? Might’ve been the one I was thinking of.

[Aidamis]

A certain unofficial book featured a certain class which got access to both the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list, minus Arcane recovery and other Wizard class boons and minus Metamagic, Sorcery Points and other Sorcerer boons. But the class had over thematic drawbacks such as any kind of armor interfering with their magic (essentially can't even wear hide or studded leather) and no access to ritual casting.

In a more simple game if the Wizard spell list was simply added on top of that of a Sorcerer... well we already have Divine Soul with access to the Cleric spell list and they can be pretty powerful but they aren't OP, and they must pick their spells very carefully given the limited number available by default.
Thus similarly I think that because of the opportunity cost this addition would not be game-breaking.
Wizards and Sorcerers share a lot of spells, Wizards get a bit more utility in their spell list and some pretty good unique spells...

Let's imagine that there are two kinds of power progression in the game - vertical and horizontal. Vertical is older spells getting more potent via using higher level spell slots, new devastating (or super healing) options appearing etc. Horizontal is a character gaining more versatility, becoming able to do more different things. They don't become the very best at one or two things, but have a good enough level competency over several.

So IMHO while the Wizard list on a Sorcerer provides both vertical and horizontal progression opportunities, it doesn't give any additional ground-breaking rules by itself, instead giving the player the opportunity to better make use of access to the list. In a way, it even encourages thinking and also takes some load away from the party's Wizard. This access would also be very welcome in a small party (three-four people).

tl dr Pro's Sorcerer gains more versatility (and power, if they know good spell combos), party benefits, Wizard gains a battlefield control buddy Con's the Sorcerer has to give up on some Sorcerer spells, party's Wizard can get a little frustrated because of the redundancies, GM has a little bit of added stress due to not being able to know whether the player's new "combos" will "break" some encounters, but a GM worth their salt can adapt.

[Mr Adventurer]

Quickened, then? Might’ve been the one I was thinking of.

If you cast a Quickened spell then you can't cast any other spells in your turn except cantrips.

[jaappleton]

If you cast a Quickened spell then you can't cast any other spells in your turn except cantrips.

Vampiric Touch is Concentration. You cast it as Quickened to siphon life as a bonus action, and Vampiric Touch lets you do it again using your action.

What I’m saying works.

It’s also why Quickened Sunbeam is so good.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh, I see, cool.

[CapnWildefyr]

If you care about the 'fluff' it destroys both the sorcerer and the wizard classes. Sorcerers do things innately, without study. The wizard studies, hence the broader spell selection IMO. Certainly some spells should never be available to sorcerers, like simulacrum. (I agree with Haber_Dasher) Think about the flip side: why not then give metamagic to wizards -- 2 @3rd, add another one or two later, like a skill - no point spending, since wizards don't have sorcery points.

You also remove a weakness of wizards-- the spell book. Wizard + lost spell books = peasant with a lot of hp. :smallcool:

You could just try 2e, it's got problems but you had wizards with metamagic.

[kazaryu]

If you care about the 'fluff' it destroys both the sorcerer and the wizard classes. Sorcerers do things innately, without study. The wizard studies, hence the broader spell selection IMO.

hmmm, that explains the broader list of spells 'known' (i.e. the spell book). it doesn't explain why the wizard has access to magic that sorcerers don't.
edit: my point here is that the thing that makes the wizard unique and versatile isn't their spell list, its their spellbook. which this change wouldn't give sorcs access to.


Certainly some spells should never be available to sorcerers, like simulacrum.


honest question: why do you not think sorcerers shouldn't have simulacrum? the only metamagic it interacts with is subtle spell (twinned requires the spell to target a creature,which simulacrum doesn't). so i honestly can't think what you might be referring to. like i said, honest question.



Think about the flip side: why not then give metamagic to wizards -- 2 @3rd, add another one or two later, like a skill - no point spending, since wizards don't have sorcery points.


exclusively because sorcerers need to have a special thing that makes them unique. honestly, the fact that they decided to take metamagic away from everyone but sorcerers is my biggest peeve about 5e. its makes translation of magical characters so ****ing difficult, not from a mechanical perspective, but from a lore perspective. 'welp, my wizard can no longer prepare a heightened, silent, still casting of magic missile' (not that i'd ever wanna heighten magic missile..thats just silly)



You also remove a weakness of wizards-- the spell book. Wizard + lost spell books = peasant with a lot of hp. :smallcool:

not technically true in 5e. technically the only time a wizard needs to study their spell book is when they change their list of prepared spells. so a wizard without a spell book is just a sorcerer without metamagic.


You could just try 2e, it's got problems but you had wizards with metamagic.

im curious why you defaulted to 2e? no derision but like...3e gave metamagic to everyone too lol.

[CapnWildefyr]

Hi kazaryu--
Points 1&2. What you say is true as far as it goes but wizards scholarly approach is what gives them the broader range of spells, IMO. And simulacrum for example--the very fact that you can repair it in a lab and that it takes 12 hours to cast are dispositive for 'innate' casting. Sorcerers would not have the skillset for working in a lab - artist vs scientist, both have inspiration and creativity, just different. (And yes we are only talking about some of the unique spells here, not all.)

Point 3: You're kinda agreeing with me--whether or not we Like with the flavoring the designers gave us, when you start mixing it up too much, you lose as much as you gain. (If the fluff means something to your table, not everyone cares of course, which is OK.) BTW i miss wizard metamagic too, and wizard tradition wild magic... there were some awesome if dangerous WM spells in the past.

Point 4: you're right, i went too far. I was just trying to say that the spellbook is also a liability or at least a limitation too. You NEED extras, you're one failed save from being way more limited. I think--only by reading between the lines in posts-- that in a lot of games thats not an issue (I have the feeling the DM wouldn't think of it), and that wizard spells are readily available. Nothing wrong there, but when its hard to acquire new spells, it narrows the gap between the sorcerers spells known and the wizards spell book.

Last point: I just played a lot of mages in 2e, not so much in 3e (too busy with little kids at the time).

I guess I feel that playing a sorcerer is supposed to be themed, or focused. That's just me I guess. Oh, and yeah, this is all opinion (exc the simulacrum details).:smallsmile:

[kazaryu]

Hi kazaryu--
Points 1&2. What you say is true as far as it goes but wizards scholarly approach is what gives them the broader range of spells, IMO. And simulacrum for example--the very fact that you can repair it in a lab and that it takes 12 hours to cast are dispositive for 'innate' casting. Sorcerers would not have the skillset for working in a lab - artist vs scientist, both have inspiration and creativity, just different. (And yes we are only talking about some of the unique spells here, not all.)
ah, thats fair enough. your orignal post sounded (imo) more like you were referring to a mechanical balance issue, not a thematic one.


Point 3: You're kinda agreeing with me--whether or not we Like with the flavoring the designers gave us, when you start mixing it up too much, you lose as much as you gain. (If the fluff means something to your table, not everyone cares of course, which is OK.) BTW i miss wizard metamagic too, and wizard tradition wild magic... there were some awesome if dangerous WM spells in the past.

right, yes, same as previous. it sounded more like you were trying to make a mechanical point.


Last point: I just played a lot of mages in 2e, not so much in 3e (too busy with little kids at the time).

I guess I feel that playing a sorcerer is supposed to be themed, or focused. That's just me I guess. Oh, and yeah, this is all opinion (exc the simulacrum details).:smallsmile:
ah, yeah figured it was something like that. and i def agree with the themed part. im ok with classes having their own unique stuff.

[jaappleton]

I’m just going to yell this into the ether:

SORCERERS NEED BETTER EXCLUSIVE SPELLS, NOT JUST ‘most of the Wizard list’

[Dork_Forge]

I’m just going to yell this into the ether:

SORCERERS NEED BETTER EXCLUSIVE SPELLS, NOT JUST ‘most of the Wizard list’

This is true, but also not something we can really do outside of questionable homebrew spells. In the meantime more spells from the Wizard list is a decent patch.

[jaappleton]

This is true, but also not something we can really do outside of questionable homebrew spells. In the meantime more spells from the Wizard list is a decent patch.

Can’t argue with this one bit.

[Witty Username]

More metamagic would be good to.

[Theaitetos]

Point 4: you're right, i went too far. I was just trying to say that the spellbook is also a liability or at least a limitation too. You NEED extras, you're one failed save from being way more limited. I think--only by reading between the lines in posts-- that in a lot of games thats not an issue (I have the feeling the DM wouldn't think of it), and that wizard spells are readily available. Nothing wrong there, but when its hard to acquire new spells, it narrows the gap between the sorcerers spells known and the wizards spell book.


Wizards have a ton of options available to secure their spellbooks, for example storing it in Leomund's Secret Chest, have an outsider protect it via Planar Binding, safely store it in a Demiplane and read it via Scrying, have illusionary spellbooks with Programmed Illusion, hide copies with Sequester, have a Homunculus in a safe location with a copy, True Polymorph plants into copies, … or (my favorite): find a wizard colleague to use Modify Memory on you, giving you perfect memory of yourself studying your spellbook. Then you can study your spellbook via memory. :smallbiggrin:


More metamagic would be good to.

Even switching metamagic on gaining a level would be nice for starters, or (as someone else suggested) weaker at-will versions of metamagic.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Vampiric Touch is Concentration. You cast it as Quickened to siphon life as a bonus action, and Vampiric Touch lets you do it again using your action.

What I’m saying works.

It’s also why Quickened Sunbeam is so good.

I hadn't noticed that potential, but you're right it's there. I'm not sure it's a great choice but it's more useful than just quickening a cantrip to pile on a bit of extra damage with no rider. Quickened Sunbeam, on the other hand, seems more fun. If nothing else, two Sunbeams fired in one round at the same people greatly increases the chance of blinding them, along with dishing out a fair bit more damage to multiple targets compared to Vampiric Touch.


I’m just going to yell this into the ether:

SORCERERS NEED BETTER EXCLUSIVE SPELLS, NOT JUST ‘most of the Wizard list’

This is true.


This is true, but also not something we can really do outside of questionable homebrew spells. In the meantime more spells from the Wizard list is a decent patch.

Also true. But I'd just like to say: why not both? More (but not all) spells from the Wizard list are called for, along with also adding some Sorcerer-exclusive spells.

[kazaryu]

Wizards have a ton of options available to secure their spellbooks, for example storing it in Leomund's Secret Chest, have an outsider protect it via Planar Binding, safely store it in a Demiplane and read it via Scrying, have illusionary spellbooks with Programmed Illusion, hide copies with Sequester, have a Homunculus in a safe location with a copy, True Polymorph plants into copies, … or (my favorite): find a wizard colleague to use Modify Memory on you, giving you perfect memory of yourself studying your spellbook. Then you can study your spellbook via memory. :smallbiggrin:


i love how one of your options listed uses true polymorph....pretty sure that if you were high enough level to cast true polymorph, you have access to much better options.

that being said about half of those don't work because they ignore why spellbooks are neccesary to begin with, or more specifically what makes them neccesary: the ink
demiplane/scrying: scrying doesn't cross planar boundaries.
illusionary: you assume that seeing the words is all thats neccesary for preparation. but if that were true then copying a spell wouldn't require specific expensive inks. at best an illusionary spell book would allow you to look at what spells you could prepare...if you had your spellbook
modify memory : if this worked then with enough practice a wizard could just memorize their spellbook anyway. but thats not an option even with the keen mind feat.
True polymorph : the most debateable of the options. i would argue that you can't true polymorph something into a semi-magical item (i.e. the special ink used to store your spells with the spells stored in it).

then of the options you do have listed there are several that are simply inefficient. ignoring the fact that many of the options are built around high level spells here's the issues with event he ones that 'work'
planar binding if you're in a position to bind an extraplanar slave to guard your book...then the guardian is superfluous becuase the book is safer with you anyway. especially since extraplanar creatures don't really...like being bound.
Homunculus soooo...you have something that can deliver your book to you? maybe? if you're in a situation where you can wait for the homunculus to deliver the book, then there was really no point in 'securing' it.
sequester 5000 gold?! good grief, just use a demiplane.

[Theaitetos]

i love how one of your options listed uses true polymorph....pretty sure that if you were high enough level to cast true polymorph, you have access to much better options.

Yeah, but isn't it the most fun option: Turning your enemies into copies of your spellbook! :smallbiggrin:


that being said about half of those don't work because they ignore why spellbooks are neccesary to begin with, or more specifically what makes them neccesary: the ink

Eh, as far as I know there are no rules about the magic ink apart from the few things about copying a spell into your spellbook.

Otherwise, how is it possible for specialist wizards to copy a spell of their school with only half the gold cost? :smallconfused:


demiplane/scrying: scrying doesn't cross planar boundaries.

This limitation applies to Scrying on creatures, not to locations you are familiar with.


illusionary: you assume that seeing the words is all thats neccesary for preparation. but if that were true then copying a spell wouldn't require specific expensive inks. at best an illusionary spell book would allow you to look at what spells you could prepare...if you had your spellbook

As I said, I'm not aware of any ink rules that prevent this.


modify memory : if this worked then with enough practice a wizard could just memorize their spellbook anyway. but thats not an option even with the keen mind feat.

You can't get perfect memory with enough practice, but magic can!


True polymorph : the most debateable of the options. i would argue that you can't true polymorph something into a semi-magical item (i.e. the special ink used to store your spells with the spells stored in it).

You can turn a giant pile of poo into a powerful demon, an eldritch mindflayer, or a majestic angel, but can't turn something into cheap ink? I think you underestimate 9th-level spells by a lot. :smallwink:



Homunculus soooo...you have something that can deliver your book to you? maybe? if you're in a situation where you can wait for the homunculus to deliver the book, then there was really no point in 'securing' it.

No, you have unlimited telepathy with your homunculus and can see through his eyes. Put him in a safe place with your spellbook, and simply use his eyes for reading from it.

[kazaryu]

Yeah, but isn't it the most fun option: Turning your enemies into copies of your spellbook! :smallbiggrin:


it would be fun, and to be fair: you're at lvl 17, so protecting your spellbook isn't really a big deal.



Eh, as far as I know there are no rules about the magic ink apart from the few things about copying a spell into your spellbook.

Otherwise, how is it possible for specialist wizards to copy a spell of their school with only half the gold cost? :smallconfused:


the cost of copying the spell is partially based on materials to 'experiement' with the spell as part of learning it. i'd imagine that this is where the cost reduction comes from. not the inks. however, in your defense, RaW its only 'fine' inks that are required. not magical. so there is that.



This limitation applies to Scrying on creatures, not to locations you are familiar with.

good point, although i think comes down to RaW vs RaI. but thats just a judement call on the DM's part. that being said you'll have a heckuvtime turning the pages to where you need them. probably just easier to pop into your demiplane rather than trying to scry it.



As I said, I'm not aware of any ink rules that prevent this.


the fact that you need specific inks in order to copy the spells. even making a copy of your spellbook requires expensive inks. if an illusory book would work, then there's no reason you cant use just any ink (or in fact...blood).



You can't get perfect memory with enough practice, but magic can!
the keen mind feat would beg to differ. of course, this is also a DM judgement call.



You can turn a giant pile of poo into a powerful demon, an eldritch mindflayer, or a majestic angel, but can't turn something into cheap ink? I think you underestimate 9th-level spells by a lot. :smallwink:

this would depend on your definition of 'powerful'. you *are* limited to cr9 or lower. that being said, as mentioned above the ink, apparently, only needs to be of a particular quality, not magical. so now this comes down to a question of how well do you need to have your spellbook memorized in order to perfectly replicate it via polymorph. so :shrug:
i mean, also, like i said earlier, you're already lvl 17, this isn't really that big of a deal all things considered.

[QUOTE
No, you have unlimited telepathy with your homunculus and can see through his eyes. Put him in a safe place with your spellbook, and simply use his eyes for reading from it.
[/QUOTE]
ahhhh, that makes more sense. and, sure, that def works then.


to be clear: i consider the ink thing to be almost exclusively a mechanical limitation placed on wizards, narratively (at least in 5e) i can't see how its meant to work. however, it does exist, so in a mechanical discussion it needs to be contended with.

that being said i do have a wizard that def doesn't have access to 'fine inks' and i just kinda ignore that.

[Theaitetos]

to be clear: i consider the ink thing to be almost exclusively a mechanical limitation placed on wizards, narratively (at least in 5e) i can't see how its meant to work. however, it does exist, so in a mechanical discussion it needs to be contended with.

that being said i do have a wizard that def doesn't have access to 'fine inks' and i just kinda ignore that.


Wait, I just had another idea! You're a wizard! You can have an Octopus familiar! Just milk it for its ink and you're done! :smallbiggrin:

[kazaryu]

Wait, I just had another idea! You're a wizard! You can have an Octopus familiar! Just milk it for its ink and you're done! :smallbiggrin:

LMAO, if the DM'd allow that i'd jsut say ****it and use my own blood.

[Spiritchaser]

I don't actually know any table that uses unearthed arcana; most seem to consider UA to be sufficiently unpolished that a judgement call by those at the table is a better option.

I use some unearthed arcana, based on such a judgement call on how reasonable it appears to be. I can’t claim to be allowing foresight on sorcerers, simply because the only high level campaign I have is stalled out (probably permanently) and I am not running a campaign high enough to use it.

Were I to start a campaign in this level range, I would certainly allow this addition.

Id venture two main points as to why it’s just fine.

First, the cost. Even at this level, a sorcerer does not have a great many spells known, and must rely much more heavily than a wizard on safe wish castings for what they lack. For a sorcerer to trade that in is a big sacrifice. It’s not like the SP cost is minor either.

Second, well, just the level. This seems appropriate at the level where foresight becomes available.

I do see meaningful flavour arguments for prohibiting access to the entire wizard list, but not really any game balance ones.

Edit: if you allow the whole wizard list AND add a bunch more spells known... I do see a problem.

[kazaryu]

First, the cost. Even at this level, a sorcerer does not have a great many spells known, and must rely much more heavily than a wizard on safe wish castings for what they lack. For a sorcerer to trade that in is a big sacrifice. It’s not like the SP cost is minor either.

Second, well, just the level. This seems appropriate at the level where foresight becomes available.

.

tbf, learning foresight isn't mutually exclusive with learning Wish. they can pick both up at lvl 17. obviously they can only cast one of them per day, but still. that being said, i agree. twinned foresight really isn't that much more powerful than having access to a one time free, 1 action, casting of any spell of 8th level or lower.

[Theaitetos]

tbf, learning foresight isn't mutually exclusive with learning Wish. they can pick both up at lvl 17. obviously they can only cast one of them per day, but still. that being said, i agree. twinned foresight really isn't that much more powerful than having access to a one time free, 1 action, casting of any spell of 8th level or lower.

One? :smallconfused:

You can twin Wish as well. :smallcool: