Duel wielding Arcane Rouge

[Worn Knight]

I have never played d&d, but when I do, I want a character I like ready. I am trying to build a gish duel wilder. Mostly because I think it would be cool to RP. I want it to feel as if robin form batman had a little magic. I want to priorities melee damage. I was thinking arcane trickster 14 / fighter 6. I don't care about spell thief, and I know my magic is limited. I feel like that is the price I have to pay. So I was thinking, the arcane trickster is probably the best bet, but it does not give enough damage. I think I should start by picking the Human variant(Feat: Duel-Wielding). To get the most damage out of extra attacks, I think we need to consider sneak attack. There are interesting ways to get an advantage (find femilior). This will increase is damage, but I would like more. I do not know what subclass of fighter to go with, however. I also think the blade singer has some good synergy. Any ideas of how I can multi-class this character?

[CheddarChampion]

Your DM might waive the requirement, but you need to be an elf to be a bladesinger.

I'd recommend V. Human 10/16/14/14/10/10 with dual wielder, take 5 levels in AT, then 1 in fighter (TWF style), back to rogue for 10 levels, then 4 in Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight. Maximize Dex ASAP.

Or: High Elf AT 5/Bladesinger 6/AT +9 8/17/14/14/10/10. Take elven accuracy (+1 Dex) then +2 Dex. Use any spell that gives you advantage on attacks, especially shadow blade.
Note that casting such a spell and starting the bladesinging may delay when you can start dual wielding as they use up your bonus actions.

[Lunali]

AT rogue doesn't mesh well with dual wield and extra attack since a lot of the combat power boost of the subclass comes from being able to use booming blade/green-flame blade for your attacks. You might also consider eldritch knight, sword/valor bard, or blade warlock.

[CTurbo]

There is a lot of synergy between an Arcane Trickster Rogue and an Eldritch Knight Fighter, but there is not any synergy at all with dual wielding and "gishing"

If you really want to play a dual wielding Rogue with magic I'd recommend playing a Swashbuckler with 3-5 levels of Swords Bard instead.

Also consider a Bladesinger Wizard/Eldritch Knight Fighter combo. EK Fighter 7/Arcane Trickster 13 or EK Fighter 7/Bladesinger 13 would be great.

[Worn Knight]

There is a lot of synergy between an Arcane Trickster Rogue and an Eldritch Knight Fighter, but there is not any synergy at all with dual wielding and "gishing"

If you really want to play a dual wielding Rogue with magic I'd recommend playing a Swashbuckler with 3-5 levels of Swords Bard instead.

Also consider a Bladesinger Wizard/Eldritch Knight Fighter combo. EK Fighter 7/Arcane Trickster 13 or EK Fighter 7/Bladesinger 13 would be great.

thank you but there must be something something right? like magic weapon. If we have spells that buff our attack rolls and we have extra attacks then that is sum synergy. The Runes Knights giants might? Colossus Slayer is also something. Even if i have to make a 2 lvl dip into wizard or something. I would like my character to derive his magic from studding arcane tomes not just being so darn likable.

[CTurbo]

thank you but there must be something something right? like magic weapon. If we have spells that buff our attack rolls and we have extra attacks then that is sum synergy. The Runes Knights giants might? Colossus Slayer is also something. Even if i have to make a 2 lvl dip into wizard or something. I would like my character to derive his magic from studding arcane tomes not just being so darn likable.


All the weapon boosting spells that I can think of only boosts a single weapon, and then you'll have so many things competing with your bonus action attack. Spells like Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark, and Hex work with dual wielding but you're not going to have access to them. The only good thing about a Rogue dual wielding is having twice the chances to land sneak attack. Sneak Attack is always going to be the best way for Rogue's to get damage. For the Arcane Trickster, you'll want to use Shadow Blade and the Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade. Getting a 2nd attack is nice for weapon boosting spells as well as Shadow Blade, but it doesn't work with the blade cantrips. EK Fighter 7 is possibly the best "gish" feature as it allows you to cast a cantrip and still make a weapon attack. This is the only way outside of Action Surge to use Booming Blade and still get a second attack.


This doesn't mean that you can't build a dual wielding Gish character. It's just going to be really hard to optimize it properly.


I recommend just playing a Dex based TWF Eldritch Knight Fighter and grabbing some Arcane Trickster Rogue levels at some point. EK Fighter 11/Arcane Trickster Rogue 9 would be a good split.

[Man_Over_Game]

Many people have already mentioned that dual wielding as an Arcane Trickster won't work, but you know what will?

Hexblade Warlock. You can get more value out of Hex and your Hexblade's Curse by having that off-hand weapon.

Alternatively, a Ranger using Hunter's Mark, although you'll want to avoid most other spells that would make use of your Bonus Action (and the Ranger has a lot).

[Worn Knight]

Hexblade Warlock. You can get more value out of Hex and your Hexblade's Curse by having that off-hand weapon.



If I used spells they would need to be made based off my charisma. I don't want that :(

[Worn Knight]

do you think going arcane trickster 15/ battle master 5 is a bad idea

[Ventruenox]

If your DM allows third part products, take a look at Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter (https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/blood-hunter), specifically the Profane Soul Order. It is similar to the Eldritch Knight, but pulling from the Warlock spell list and keys off your Wisdom stat.

The EK/BM mix can be effective, depending on which maneuvers are chosen. You'll want to find ways to give yourself advantage to land that sneak attack.

[Theaitetos]

If I used spells they would need to be made based off my charisma. I don't want that :(

But Charisma works great for those who use magic makeup like arcane rouge. :smallwink:

jk, it's about the spelling mistake in your title: Dual wielding Arcane Rogue. :smalltongue:


I do not know what subclass of fighter to go with, however.

When you go crit-fishing to double sneak attack damage, a Champion works great due to the double crit chance (19-20, instead of 20).

[Worn Knight]

When you go crit-fishing to double sneak attack damage, a Champion works great due to the double crit chance (19-20, instead of 20).

Do you think going champion is worth it though?

[bid]

Do you think going champion is worth it though?
Champion improved critical is one of the most overrated feature in 5e, up there with assassinate. If you pick it because you don't want to deal with other archetypes' complications, it fine. Since it's your first character, you should try to make it as simple as you can.

Dual wielder is... not a good feat for rogues. It's weaker than a Dex ASI and twin rapier is the silliest combat style there is. Only pick it if you want to use a whip.


You could start high elf 8 16 14 14 10 10 as a rogue and go bladesinger, concentrating on support spell. But again, it depends how much you want to work to find out which spells are good.

Or you could half-elf 8 16 14 12 10 16 as a hexbladelock/swashbuckler gish. Still something that requires lots of research.


IMHO means you shouldn't MC at all, a pure AT is nice enough. You can still read guides and research for the fun of it, but KISS for a first character.

[Theaitetos]

I've tried coming up with good dual-wielding builds myself, but it just doesn't work out. Now, some of the builds out there are very good and not bad at all, but dual-wielding is crippled in 5e and there's always a stronger option out there, usually great-weapon-master (GWM) builds. :smallfrown:

That being said, here are a few useful things I thought about when trying to build my own dual-wielder / two-weapon-fighter (TWF):

(I think Man_Over_Game alluded to it already:) Going with a Hexblade Warlock 3 / X multiclass allows your dual-wielder to get SAD: You can now use both of your weapons with CHA – instead of going with a STR or (versatile-weapons) DEX build. Multiclass requirements are the only thing draining your stats elsewhere in this case. You wouldn't be limited to the rapier for crit-builds this way, and could use longswords, flails, battleaxes for dual-wielding; and if you go for a hypothetical mounted build, you could dual-wield two lances – weird, but cool. :smallcool:

The Elven Accuracy feat allows you to roll 3d20 instead of 2d20 on attack rolls whenever you have advantage, which works well with crit-fishing builds (i.e. crit on 19 or 20 on d20; Champion Fighter or Hexblade Curse feature). Crit chances are 5% (normal), ~10% (normal & advantage), 10% (crit-fisher), 19% (crit-fisher & advantage), and finally 27% (crit-fisher & advantage & elven accuracy). Prerequisite: Elf or Half-Elf race.

If you go warlock, you can easily get (permanent) advantage with the Devil's Sight invocation + Darkness spell. Or you go with at least 5 levels in warlock to get the Eldritch Smite invocation, that adds an automatic prone effect to hits with your pact weapon (on huge or smaller enemies); Eldritch Smite also allows you to use your warlock slots (and only those!) for smites, adding (1 + slot-level)d8 force damage to your hit. When it's a crit, these additional d8's will get doubled too.

After those levels (Drow Half-Elf Hexblade 5/Champion 3) I've struggled to optimize this build further. Sorry.

[Theaitetos]

OK, how about this crazy idea? :smalltongue:

Sir Lance-a-lot
Half-Elf (any descent) +2 CHA, +1 STR, +1 CON
Background: Simic Scientist (Guardian Project) [required for Enlarge/Reduce spell]
STR 13 / DEX 12 / CON 15 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 15 [feel free to move the 4 points from DEX around]
Paladin (any) 16 [auras are good, so Ancients or Oathbreaker]
Warlock (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade) 3 [SAD: both weapons now work with CHA]
Fighter 1 [for the Two-Weapon Fighting style]
Feats: Elven Accuracy (+1 CHA)> Dual Wielder > CHA +2 > Mounted Combatant
Concentration spell of choice: Enlarge/Reduce (Enlarge) [you can include your mount for free]
Important spell: Find Greater Steed (Paladin spell, spell-level 4, gained at Paladin 13)
Eldritch invocations: Improved Pact Weapon, Trickster's Escape [last one not crucial, can be replaced]
Fighting Styles: Fighter: Two-Weapon Fighting; Paladin: Defense [or Mariner with Medium Armor for fun]

Weapons of Choice: 2 x Lances :smallcool:

There you go, you're a large, unstoppable Half-Elf riding a huge, flying, fiendish Pegasus, double-stabbing your enemies with freaking lances. :smallbiggrin:

The lances have a damage of 1d12 (piercing) + 1d4 piercing (enlarged) + 5 (CHA 20) + 1d8 radiant (Improved Divine Smite)
The main lance gets +1 piercing (Improved Pact Weapon) [but surely you can find better lances?] and Extra Attack

The Enlarge spell increases your battlefield reach and your auras respectively, while making you resistant/immune to certain forced movement attempts; you also have advantage on almost all enemies (anything smaller than huge) due to your huge mount. Elven Accuracy uses this advantage.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdRWZD5V0AE5oyc.jpg
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996517366254071808

However, it would be great to have a sorcerer colleague cast twinned Enlarge on you and your mount, as you could then concentrate on Spirit Guardians, which gets cast on your mount as well and a 15ft-radius on a huge creature is… wow. Don't know if both spells add their effects [maybe if one is necrotic damage and the other radiant?] though.

The Oathbreaker's aura empowers your Greater Steed, if you make it a fiend (not fey or celestial).

Any spell you cast, that targets only yourself, can automatically affect your Steed too, so things like Armor of Agathys, Freedom of Movement [the Trickster's Escape invocation], Aura of X, Shield, Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, smites, … all affect your Steed too.

I probably forgot a bunch of things that are included here, but this is the main stuff. You can move up to 3 levels around from Paladin to Fighter or Warlock; Paladin minimum is 13, Warlock minimum is 3, Fighter minimum is 1 [make sure to get 4 ASIs].

[kazaryu]

thank you but there must be something something right? like magic weapon. If we have spells that buff our attack rolls and we have extra attacks then that is sum synergy. The Runes Knights giants might? Colossus Slayer is also something. Even if i have to make a 2 lvl dip into wizard or something. I would like my character to derive his magic from studding arcane tomes not just being so darn likable.
ignore the people saying it lacks synergy. there is. for the same reason that rogues in general frequently. dual-wield the synergy is that you get an extra attack. you're still a rogue, you're still doing sneak attack, so missing an attack is still going to deny you quite a bit of damage. GfB wil still be huge for you, obvi, but don't let people talk you out of the TwF.

that being said, you def wanna go for the TwF fighting style ASAP. i'd say no later than character lvl 5. depending on how you do ability score generation you could even pick it up at 4th level, although if you do point buy or standard array i think probably you'll wanna grab that 4th level early in order to boost your dex. then grab a level in fighter. so now you've got multiattack...sort of.


now, on the other hand, another solid option is just straight EK. or EK primary with a dip into rogue. by level 5 you've got 3 attacks with full scaling. (so like... 3d8+15 damage as opposed to 4d6+10 for great weapon fighting). at level 7 you can now choose between using GFB (or booming blade)+BA attack (if there's a valid target for the secondary damage) or doing a full attack. (yay options!). you see what i mean.

now, admittedly you do get a bit of redundancy. but its still an alternative.

[Verble]

I'm currently playing an arcane trickster 5/Great Old Ones Warlock 2.

This gets me more cantrips and 2 really cool invocations I can use at will(disguise self, silent image etc). My charisma is only 14 which makes me a decent party face, but his magic comes from arcane study and a bargain with a powerful and somewhat malicious Hag. The warlock dip also gives a few spell Slots that recharge on a short rest, which really helps out my AT spells.