Apropos of non-traditional uses for Illusionist

[Phhase]

So, I was looking at Illusion Wizard, and I noticed a few things that seem a little...off.

The text of Malleable Illusions says "when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion."

Silence

So, while you probably couldn't change the size/shape of the spell, or make the origin attached to an object, I contest that you could use Malleable Illusions to change where the origin point is located, since that is a parameter of the spell that you choose. Honestly, I don't know why it's classified as an illusion. It's clearly either an abjuration or transmutation.

Now, I'm certain I'm not the first to ask questions like this, but consider Illusory Reality. Its text states thusly:

"When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for 1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough for your allies to cross.

The object can't deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone."

So, I'm curious about the actual extent to which the object is or isn't real, and the limits of "Directly Harms".

So let's start strong with some basic Moon Logic. Let's say you're at the bottom of a cliff, and your friend is at the top. Your friend jumps off. Normally, they'd take a button of damage on landing. However, you create an illusion of a platform floating above the ground, and make it "Real". Your friend lands on it. Does he take damage?

Here's another puzzler. You create an illusory crossbow, and make it "Real". You place a real bolt in it, and fire it. Does the target take damage? Or, barring that example, what if you create a "Real" illusion of a very large coiled spring? When it extends, can it fling an object?

How about this? You create a large illusory block of iron, and make it "Real". You then drop it on top of a creature. Obviously, it doesn't take damage, but is it pinned by the weight?

Most of this is stupidity. :smallbiggrin: But I'm curious what others think.

[Tanarii]

See the silence illusion is quite the trick

[MrStabby]

Obligatory useless and facetious answer: Ask your DM.

More constructively...

Silence-

I would let it move. A tough call to make and something I am pretty likely to change my mind over. Would I allow an illusion of an Orc to change position? Probably yes, so do the same here.



Jumping off a cliff-

The barrier stops that person if and only if they were falling from a sufficiently small height that they wouldn't take damage on landing on the interposed platform. If there is a platform that is able to be lowered over the next minute then there isn't a problem.


Illusory crossbow-

No problem with this at all, as long as you don't try and beat someone to death with it.


Block of Iron and drop it on top of a creature -

Here I would follow the rules for dimension door and trying to occupy the space inside another object. I.e. you take a bundle of force damage and get pushed outside.



These are my first responses.

[Phhase]

Obligatory useless and facetious answer: Ask your DM.

More constructively...

Silence-

I would let it move. A tough call to make and something I am pretty likely to change my mind over. Would I allow an illusion of an Orc to change position? Probably yes, so do the same here.



Jumping off a cliff-

The barrier stops that person if and only if they were falling from a sufficiently small height that they wouldn't take damage on landing on the interposed platform. If there is a platform that is able to be lowered over the next minute then there isn't a problem.


Illusory crossbow-

No problem with this at all, as long as you don't try and beat someone to death with it.


Block of Iron and drop it on top of a creature -

Here I would follow the rules for dimension door and trying to occupy the space inside another object. I.e. you take a bundle of force damage and get pushed outside.



These are my first responses.

Hmmm, interesting. Then, I suppose it follows that one could make an illusory ballista, or even an illusory cannon...

[JoeJ]

Hmmm, interesting. Then, I suppose it follows that one could make an illusory ballista, or even an illusory cannon...

If it fits within the size parameters, I don't see why you couldn't make a ballista. Whether or not you could make a cannon probably depends on whether or not cannons exist in that universe. If they do, you should be able to make one. Unless you have proficiency in using them and are in the habit of carrying artillery ammunition (and powder for a cannon) around with you, I don't see what the point would be, but you could do it.

[Chronos]

If you just made a wooden platform to try to save a falling ally, I'd rule that they'd break through the platform as they're falling, with no harm to themself at that moment, but that they'd then take normal fall damage on hitting the ground below. On the other hand, if you make the illusion a large cushion or a net or something of that nature, something that would prevent falling damage if it were really real-real, that would work.

Moving an illusion around with Malleable Illusion is probably valid by RAW, and leads to a lot more potent interactions (especially when you get to long-duration illusions like a 6th-level Major Image or Mirage Arcane). But I'd rule that it doesn't work at all with Silence, because Silence is not an illusion you can see.

And I'd agree that you could make a functioning projectile weapon, but you'd still need real ammunition. Alternately, you could make illusory ammunition for a real weapon, but then it wouldn't deal damage.

[Theaitetos]

If it fits within the size parameters, I don't see why you couldn't make a ballista. Whether or not you could make a cannon probably depends on whether or not cannons exist in that universe. If they do, you should be able to make one. Unless you have proficiency in using them and are in the habit of carrying artillery ammunition (and powder for a cannon) around with you, I don't see what the point would be, but you could do it.

Yeah, but the other side can just make illusory adamantine walls:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557814946197942272

[BurgerBeast]

So, I was looking at Illusion Wizard, and I noticed a few things that seem a little...off.

The text of Malleable Illusions says "when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion."

Silence

So, while you probably couldn't change the size/shape of the spell, or make the origin attached to an object, I contest that you could use Malleable Illusions to change where the origin point is located, since that is a parameter of the spell that you choose. Honestly, I don't know why it's classified as an illusion. It's clearly either an abjuration or transmutation.

Now, I'm certain I'm not the first to ask questions like this, but consider Illusory Reality. Its text states thusly:

"When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for 1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough for your allies to cross.

The object can't deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone."

So, I'm curious about the actual extent to which the object is or isn't real, and the limits of "Directly Harms".

So let's start strong with some basic Moon Logic. Let's say you're at the bottom of a cliff, and your friend is at the top. Your friend jumps off. Normally, they'd take a button of damage on landing. However, you create an illusion of a platform floating above the ground, and make it "Real". Your friend lands on it. Does he take damage?

Here's another puzzler. You create an illusory crossbow, and make it "Real". You place a real bolt in it, and fire it. Does the target take damage? Or, barring that example, what if you create a "Real" illusion of a very large coiled spring? When it extends, can it fling an object?

How about this? You create a large illusory block of iron, and make it "Real". You then drop it on top of a creature. Obviously, it doesn't take damage, but is it pinned by the weight?

Most of this is stupidity. :smallbiggrin: But I'm curious what others think.

I think the example of the platform is exactly what the phrasing was meant to exclude. You couldn’t make a fire at the bottom that is real and directly burns, but you can make a platform, which can only cause harm indirectly if you fall onto it.

The second case, although we can argue about the clarity, seems to me intended to prevent the ability from being exploited as a primarily damage-causing ability. So an illusion of a firing crossbow could not be made real, and an illusion of a magical weapon or a figurine if wondrous power could not be made real.

Could you make a crossbow, and then fire it? Up to the DM. My answer is “Unfortunately not.” I say unfortunately because there’s no in-game logical reason for this, so far as I can tell. It should work. I think I would disallow to prevent characters from making rare and expensive things for free. Cool idea for a class ability which, after “balancing,” is irreconcilable logically.

Also, one wonders if a wizard could make illusions of object, use illusory reality to make them real, and then use animate objects to attack with them.