5E and Dragonmark Breeding

[Khrysaes]

So, to preface, Rising from the last war has been out for almost a couple of months now, and Wayfinder's has been updated to match the content in it, so the current Wayfinder's no longer has Warforged subraces and whatnot.

Therefore, my conclusion is such that "If: (RftLW -> official) AND ((WGtE -> updated) AND (WGtE ->matches RftLW) AND (WGtE -> Published by WotC)); Then: WGtE -> official."

So, Wayfinder's still has the further reading section, which includes Player's guide to Eberron.

In PGtE, on page 72 is this line

"Some half-elves continue to arise through the union of humans and elves. These individuals, with both a human and an elf parent, can appear among any of the human or elf dragonmarked houses, and thus might have either a human or elf dragonmark of the appropriate bloodline."

Therefore, it is not unreasonable to have a half elf with the marks of
Elf: Shadow

Human:
Making
Finding
Handling
Passage
Sentinel

or, by extension, a Half orc with the human marks other than finding, which they already have.

So, my question, would it be unreasonable to conclude other interbred races could have dragonmarks? A Tiefling is a 1/4 demon and 3/4 human. Though this makes me think of the House of Vol.

How would you guys go about making, mechanically, Half elves of shadow, making, handling passage, sentinel. and half orcs of the other human marks?

[HappyDaze]

So, to preface, Rising from the last war has been out for almost a couple of months now, and Wayfinder's has been updated to match the content in it, so the current Wayfinder's no longer has Warforged subraces and whatnot.

Therefore, my conclusion is such that "If: (RftLW -> official) AND ((WGtE -> updated) AND (WGtE ->matches RftLW) AND (WGtE -> Published by WotC)); Then: WGtE -> official."



Just because some parts have been updated to match an official product does not make it--specifically including parts not addressed in the official product--itself official.

With that preface, half-elves should not have dragonmarks beyond the marks of warning and storm.

[Fable Wright]

There's a really simple answer to this:

No.

If you are a half elf, you can have Mark of Storms or Detection per the lore. You actually don't have mechanical support in the form of subraces for any other possibility, and I'm inclined to believe that the original authors claiming at any point that a half elf could have the mark of a human or elvish house was not particularly studied on Eberron lore on the first place.

[Sparky McDibben]

But if you wanted to, just play a character who's flavored as a half-elf but with the appropriate sub-race mechanics.

[Khrysaes]

But if you wanted to, just play a character who's flavored as a half-elf but with the appropriate sub-race mechanics.

I mean, that is what I am doing. But it was a thought.

[Damon_Tor]

I know in 4e half elves were allowed to take either human or elf dragonmarks, though that was partly due to mechanics: dragonmarks were feats, and half elves explicitally qualified for any human or elf feat.

[Fable Wright]

Okay. So. I don't like to state that any way to play the game is badwrongfun. If your group has fun with this lore thing, great! But Keith Baker has gone on the record stating the following:


Which brings us to the first question from the audience…

Will 5E Eberron to reverse the ‘anyone can have a Dragonmark’ issue? This was the biggest change I saw in 4E Eberron, and I really disliked it.

Personally, I never considered this to be a change, by which I mean I don’t accept that “anyone can have a dragonmark” is a concrete description of the setting.

Looking at the 4E ECG:
* On page 17, in the section describing the Dragonmarked, it states “There are twelve recognized dragonmarks, each one associated with a specific bloodline that appears in a single humanoid race… Dragonmarks that appear outside these bloodlines are called aberrant marks, whether they’re recognized marks appearing on people not connected to the mark’s normal bloodline, or unusual marks beyond the recognized twelve.”
* On page 18 it states “(a dragonmarked character) might be a member of a race unconnected to the dragonmarked houses, even a race such as warforged or kalashtar (races that don’t normally manifest dragonmarks). Such a mark has nothing to do with bloodline and everything to do with the touch of the Prophecy. These characters are extremely rare—it’s not recommended that you create NPCs who fall into this category unless the story of your campaign demands it. The houses might not be sure what to do with a character like this—the character is probably the first such case they’ve ever seen, so there’s no precedent to fall back on. Some people would probably try to recruit the character into the house, while others would argue for the character’s extermination to keep the house’s bloodline—and its economic monopoly—secure.”

Putting those two statements together, what we get is this. Any player character could have a dragonmark outside of the bloodline. First of all, it would be considered an aberrant mark. Second, it is likely the first time in history this has every happened; it represents the character’s significant role in the Prophecy; and it potentially marks the character for extermination.

As such, it doesn’t change the PAST of the setting, because it’s stated that this may never have happened before and that even the DM shouldn’t casually create NPCs like this. Eberron remains a world in which dragonmarks are tied to bloodlines; it’s simply the case that players can be the bizarre, remarkable exceptions because that’s what player characters are.

I’ll note that you’re never going to see a character with no connection to a bloodline ever manifesting a pure dragonmark in an Eye on Eberron article; again, I don’t consider it to be a part of the default setting. With that said, I can think of two cases in my own novels where warforged appear to manifest dragonmarks (one pure, one aberrant)… though I’ll say that in both those cases, the whole point is for people to say “Wait, what?” and not “Oh, yeah, that’s just normal.”

… which is not to downplay your concern about the issue, but rather to say that whether in 4E or D&D Next, you shouldn’t see a setting in which the world is filled with out-of-house pure dragonmarks, even if it’s left as an option people can explore.

Cite: http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-51-the-dragonmarked-houses/

1. Your half-elf Mark of Shadows is probably the first that's ever appeared, and may be marked for death.
2. They're qualified as having an Aberrant Mark.
3. This is very much not a common thing and they will likely have no NPCs in similar situations.

This logic can easily apply to a dragonmark appearing on any conceivable source, from the Mark of Death reappearing among the Warforged population to people from House Vadalis genetically engineering a mongrelfolk race that simultaneously manifests all twelve dragonmarks to a dragonborn and a tabaxi giving birth to a half-unicorn grippli with the Mark of Storms. All of these scenarios make equally as much lore sense to me.

[Khrysaes]

There's a really simple answer to this:

No.

If you are a half elf, you can have Mark of Storms or Detection per the lore. You actually don't have mechanical support in the form of subraces for any other possibility, and I'm inclined to believe that the original authors claiming at any point that a half elf could have the mark of a human or elvish house was not particularly studied on Eberron lore on the first place.

In response to this.
My question was homebrew, which is what I was aware of, and it may have been more appropriate in the homebrew section.

I know that in 5e there is no mechanical support for this.

However, Player's guide to Eberron, the book I pulled my quote about half elves from, is from 3.5. It was at least in part authored by Keith Baker, you know, the original author and creator of Eberron. So while your inclination may be true, it would be helpful if you could provide support to validate it. My question, "Can half elves of Mark of shadow, mark of making, etc. exist?" IS supported by documentation, through multiple editions with PGtE from 3.5 and as Damon_Tor said, in 4e Half elves could take the feat.

I do acknowledge that in 5e that there is no subrace support for a Mark of Shadows half elf, or whatever. That was why I asked how it would be made, I.E. homebrew.

[Fable Wright]

So while your inclination may be true, it would be helpful if you could provide support to validate it.

Sadly, I cannot discern which segments of PGtE were written by which authors. I can provide additional citation that Keith Baker was not involved in that text, as additional information from his website indicates:



I was wondering, can a half-elf born of elf and human in Eberron develop either half-elf dragonmark, if any at all?

Well, anyone can develop any Dragonmark, if the Prophecy turns that way. However, per canon and tradition, the only way to manifest a dragonmark is if the person with the mark is part of a bloodline that already carries the mark. So the question here is whether the union of a human and half-elf has the potential to produce a human child, or if all the children will be Khoravar. If a human-Khoravar union can produce a human child, then this simply means that the human parent of your half-elf character has a connection to the house in question somewhere down the line.

Note that if a half-elf/human union can produce a human child, this wouldn’t allow a human to develop the mark of Storm, any more than a Tharashk orc can develop the mark of Finding; it’s just latent in his bloodline.
Cite: http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-101-sports-holidays-and-more/

This was written six years after Player's Guide to Eberron, and is a pretty direct contradiction with that text.

On the whole, while I get what you're going for, there's two main factors that make it tricky to do what you want to do. First, that despite PGtE, dragonmarks don't work that way. Second, Keith has stated that it was quite tricky to design the dragonmarks—they all have to be roughly balanced as subraces. Human dragonmarks have a whole lot of stuff in them because they provide the entire set of racial features to a given PC, whereas the Mark of Scribing, for example, needs to be quite limited due to the sheer number of base gnome features. No matter what you're doing, you're going to have to design new subraces for whatever you're designing, and that's just not a quick process.

In short, guidelines would be to throw in the expanded spell lists, a dragonmark d4 to the appropriate skill, and add an appropriate cantrip or short-rest-recharge 1st level spell slot somewhere in the mix and call it a day. For races with a powerful base, like gnome, the d4 should go on a tool proficiency, and you should probably stick with one cantrip (like Message). That's about as much help as I can give you in the homebrew department.

[Khrysaes]

Just because some parts have been updated to match an official product does not make it--specifically including parts not addressed in the official product--itself official.

With that preface, half-elves should not have dragonmarks beyond the marks of warning and storm.

Well, to make something an "official" product, we would have to define "official" wouldn't we?

Is "published in hardcover" the qualifier for officiousness? Because the tortle is official and never got a hardcover.
Is "Published by WotC" the qualifier? Both WFGtE and RftLW are.

Of the two parts of Wayfinder's I mentioned, one is updated to match RftLW, the dragonmarks, and the other is not mechanical in any aspect and says essentially "hey look here for more information on Eberron."

That being said, I do acknowledge that not everything in Wayfinder's may be up to date.

[Khrysaes]

Sadly, I cannot discern which segments of PGtE were written by which authors. I can provide additional citation that Keith Baker was not involved in that text, as additional information from his website indicates:


Cite: http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-101-sports-holidays-and-more/

This was written six years after Player's Guide to Eberron, and is a pretty direct contradiction with that text.


I don't think this contradicts what I was inferring to. What this article says is that: IF: Human parent and Elf Parent have half elf child; THEN: because Humans and Elves can't have mark of storm, the Half Elf child can't have the mark of storm.

What I was thinking was: IF: Human with mark of making parent and Elf with no bloodline have a half elf child; THEN: the half elf child has the mark of making.

Conceptually this is supported by both humans and half orcs having the mark of finding. Humans with the mark of finding or the bloodline for it, had to have half orc children with unmarked parents for the half orcs to have the mark, OR they both spontaneously produced the same mark in separate races and is the only one to do so.

Rereading it, I do understand that it may be contradictory. I had always considered that if a "half-elf" has a mark of the storm, then never again could their decedents be "human" and thus a "human" can not get the mark of the storm. This really depends, if someone wants to get into it that far, how much "elf" someone needs to be to be a "half elf" or "human"




On the whole, while I get what you're going for, there's two main factors that make it tricky to do what you want to do. First, that despite PGtE, dragonmarks don't work that way. Second, Keith has stated that it was quite tricky to design the dragonmarks—they all have to be roughly balanced as subraces. Human dragonmarks have a whole lot of stuff in them because they provide the entire set of racial features to a given PC, whereas the Mark of Scribing, for example, needs to be quite limited due to the sheer number of base gnome features. No matter what you're doing, you're going to have to design new subraces for whatever you're designing, and that's just not a quick process.

In short, guidelines would be to throw in the expanded spell lists, a dragonmark d4 to the appropriate skill, and add an appropriate cantrip or short-rest-recharge 1st level spell slot somewhere in the mix and call it a day. For races with a powerful base, like gnome, the d4 should go on a tool proficiency, and you should probably stick with one cantrip (like Message). That's about as much help as I can give you in the homebrew department.

I completely understand the challenge of building subraces, and that the current subraces were designed for balance in mind. That is why I asked how others would do it. As I mentioned before, I am playing a "Half-elf" that is really just a human mechanically with the mark of finding. The literal only difference, besides the dragonmark specifics, is that Half Elf with a mark of detection has Fey ancestry as well as darkvision.

[JackPhoenix]

I completely understand the challenge of building subraces, and that the current subraces were designed for balance in mind. That is why I asked how others would do it. As I mentioned before, I am playing a "Half-elf" that is really just a human mechanically with the mark of finding. The literal only difference, besides the dragonmark specifics, is that Half Elf with a mark of detection has Fey ancestry as well as darkvision.

That's pretty big difference, as in that case, it can empirically be proved you are *not* a half-elf, as half-elf would be immune to Sleep and able to see in darkness.

[Fable Wright]

I don't think this contradicts what I was inferring to. What this article says is that: IF: Human parent and Elf Parent have half elf child; THEN: because Humans and Elves can't have mark of storm, the Half Elf child can't have the mark of storm.

What I was thinking was: IF: Human with mark of making parent and Elf with no bloodline have a half elf child; THEN: the half elf child has the mark of making.

Conceptually this is supported by both humans and half orcs having the mark of finding. Humans with the mark of finding or the bloodline for it, had to have half orc children with unmarked parents for the half orcs to have the mark, OR they both spontaneously produced the same mark in separate races and is the only one to do so.

Rereading it, I do understand that it may be contradictory. I had always considered that if a "half-elf" has a mark of the storm, then never again could their decedents be "human" and thus a "human" can not get the mark of the storm. This really depends, if someone wants to get into it that far, how much "elf" someone needs to be to be a "half elf" or "human"

The most relevant bit was the last paragraph. IF ${Dragonmark Race} + ${Non-Marked Race} = ${Dragonmark Race} then the mark can be passed down. However, IF ${Dragonmark Race} + ${Non-Marked Race} = ${Non-Marked Race}, then the member of the non-marked race essentially is a genetic carrier but cannot be marked themselves. Why would half-elves get special treatment, when pure humans descended from half-elves don't? This is backed up in Dragonmarked, where if this possibility was even possible, one would have sections of each of the human races discussing how they would deal with non-human carriers of their mark. In fact, there's even direct text to the contrary:



JOINING HOUSE ORIEN
House Orien employs a number of hirelings, but it is rare that such individuals make the leap to house member. Instead, Orien encourages its heirs to have numerous children, even accepting those born out of wedlock as full scions of the house. This policy has given Orien the largest and most racially varied population of any dragonmarked house in Khorvaire; its members include a number of half-elves and half-orcs. Though such children never manifest the Mark of Passage, they have a home and a future within the house.


There's consistent evidence that dragonmarks can't be passed to different races through interbreeding except the Mark of Finding despite that bizarre text in PGtE. It is stated over and over again that Marks can appear anywhere if the plot demands, it's just that such cases are undocumented per the world as it has been in the 'default' Eberron.

[HappyDaze]

Well, to make something an "official" product, we would have to define "official" wouldn't we?

Is "published in hardcover" the qualifier for officiousness? Because the tortle is official and never got a hardcover.
Is "Published by WotC" the qualifier? Both WFGtE and RftLW are.

Of the two parts of Wayfinder's I mentioned, one is updated to match RftLW, the dragonmarks, and the other is not mechanical in any aspect and says essentially "hey look here for more information on Eberron."

That being said, I do acknowledge that not everything in Wayfinder's may be up to date.

Description of Wayfinder's still says it's playtest material. That means it is unofficial, much like UA. As far as I'm concerned (and others' opinions on it mean less than nothing to me), that's unofficial.

[Khrysaes]

That's pretty big difference, as in that case, it can empirically be proved you are *not* a half-elf, as half-elf would be immune to Sleep and able to see in darkness.

Well mark of finding humans also have dark vision.

[Khrysaes]

Description of Wayfinder's still says it's playtest material. That means it is unofficial, much like UA. As far as I'm concerned (and others' opinions on it mean less than nothing to me), that's unofficial.

That is fair. I only went to the relevant dragonmark because I wanted to look at Wayfinder's version 2, but got an updated one accidentally.

[Khrysaes]

The most relevant bit was the last paragraph. IF ${Dragonmark Race} + ${Non-Marked Race} = ${Dragonmark Race} then the mark can be passed down. However, IF ${Dragonmark Race} + ${Non-Marked Race} = ${Non-Marked Race}, then the member of the non-marked race essentially is a genetic carrier but cannot be marked themselves. Why would half-elves get special treatment, when pure humans descended from half-elves don't? This is backed up in Dragonmarked, where if this possibility was even possible, one would have sections of each of the human races discussing how they would deal with non-human carriers of their mark. In fact, there's even direct text to the contrary:



There's consistent evidence that dragonmarks can't be passed to different races through interbreeding except the Mark of Finding despite that bizarre text in PGtE. It is stated over and over again that Marks can appear anywhere if the plot demands, it's just that such cases are undocumented per the world as it has been in the 'default' Eberron.

I mean, this is just like WotC, especially 3.5, with contradicting information.

[JackPhoenix]

Well mark of finding humans also have dark vision.

And I can easily prove they are not just random humans with darkvision, and that ability is magical... the dragonmark itself being a pretty good sign.

Besides, having exactly the same stats as half-orcs with Mark of Finding would made me doubt if they're really humans, or just really human-like half-orcs.

[HappyDaze]

And I can easily prove they are not just random humans with darkvision, and that ability is magical... the dragonmark itself being a pretty good sign.

Besides, having exactly the same stats as half-orcs with Mark of Finding would made me doubt if they're really humans, or just really human-like half-orcs.

I would agree that they are just human-looking half-orcs.

[JackPhoenix]

I would agree that they are just human-looking half-orcs.

I haven't actually noticed Mark of Finding could be applied to humans until I've checked ERftLW before that post, as in WGtE, it was half-orc only, with the following description: "The Mark of Finding only manifests on half-orcs. If your character has the Mark of Finding, these traits replace the Ability Score Increase, Menacing, Relentless Endurance, and Savage Attacks given in the Player’s Handbook. Despite their orcish blood, heirs of the Mark of Finding often resemble their human parents in appearance and temperament. When you create your character, decide if the signs of your orcish ancestry are obvious or subtle."

I know there was a bit of an outrage about that from Eberron fans when WGtE v.2 was released, which is why I guess it was removed from the current version.

I feel like I should make a changelog for WGtE again, but with ERtfLW out, I don't see much of a point beyond curiosity.

[HappyDaze]

I feel like I should make a changelog for WGtE again, but with ERtfLW out, I don't see much of a point beyond curiosity.

I never bothered with WGtE just as I don't bother with UA. I will wait for finished versions because I don't want multiple versions of the same thing competing for headspace.