Malconvokers can be evil and most probably end up evil

[redking]

The Corrupt Summoning feat {Scrubbed} is usable with Malconvoker. "That's an invalid combination, because you need evil alignment to get the feat, and Malconvoker must be non-evil". Correct, to a point.

In fact, the Malconvoker must be non evil to enter the class. Unlike the many of the other classes in Complete Scoundrel, there are no "ex-Malconvokers". You cannot stop being a Malconvoker due to a change of alignment. Non-evil alignment is required to ENTER the class, not to remain in the class or retain the class features. This fits in perfectly with the fluff of the class. All the class does is protect the malconvoker from the consequences of casting evil conjuration spells, not protect the Malconvoker from the blanishments and temptations offered by evil outsiders. The chances of a Malconvoker falling to evil must be high indeed.

There is plenty of role play potential in this. The Malconvoker PC or NPC begins a slide into demoniacal or diabolical evil - or both!

Now you can use Corrupt Summoning with the Celestial Summoning Specialist feat {Scrubbed}. If you are a wizard, grab the Arcane Disciple feat {Scrubbed} so you can get the planar ally line of spells, which qualifies you for Thaumaturgist (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm). That gets you free extended summons, which combined with the Deceptive Summons from Malconvoker, means that you can summon evil Monadic Devas {Scrubbed} with all the various buffs applied. Since you already have augment summoning as part of your Malconvoker prerequisites, see if your DM will give you a different feat for the augment summoning granted by Thaumaturgist, which became standard practice in later splatbooks when you already had a feat before taking a prestige class that grants a particular feat.

[Buufreak]

{Scrubbed}

[Hellpyre]

Unless of course you stop qualifying for a feat and/or PrC if you no longer meet its prereqs, in which case one aide or the other doesn't work. (It is arguable if PrCs can stop granting benefits if you lose prereqs or not, but it is a fairly widely-held belief.)

[Darg]

The whole point of the class is that you aren't evil and you fool evil creatures into working toward your non-evil cause. There is no point to being a malconvoker if you are evil other than to maximize benefits; similar to 1 level dips that make no sense roleplay wise but are done to optimize character's capabilities.

If you become evil, there is no need to convince evil creatures to not be evil anymore. RAW, you have a point. As a DM, I wouldn't allow your malconvoker bluff checks simply because you aren't bluffing anymore.

[redking]

The whole point of the class is that you aren't evil and you fool evil creatures into working toward your non-evil cause. There is no point to being a malconvoker if you are evil other than to maximize benefits; similar to 1 level dips that make no sense roleplay wise but are done to optimize character's capabilities.

I think you've misunderstood the Malconvoker, and should take a look at Complete Scoundrel. This is nothing to do with "fooling" evil creatures to serve your non-evil. Rather it is about forcing them to do whatever you demand. The opening fluff text has this -

“Take him, my slaves! Drag his soul back to your dark masters!”
—Argyll Te’Shea, servant of Pelor and malconvoker


If you become evil, there is no need to convince evil creatures to not be evil anymore. RAW, you have a point. As a DM, I wouldn't allow your malconvoker bluff checks simply because you aren't bluffing anymore.

Again, Malconvokers aren't convincing evil creatures to not be evil anymore. The possible slide to evil is specifically mentioned in the fluff about the Vital Pact. When you bluff an evil outsider, you are not convincing them to reject evil, you are tricking them into serving you longer. "At 1st level, you can attempt to trick evil creatures you conjure into serving you for longer than they normally would".

[redking]

Unless of course you stop qualifying for a feat and/or PrC if you no longer meet its prereqs, in which case one aide or the other doesn't work. (It is arguable if PrCs can stop granting benefits if you lose prereqs or not, but it is a fairly widely-held belief.)

No - as I point out in my OP, there are no ex-Malconvokers. Look in the same book, Complete Scoundrel. There are ex-Gray Guards and so on, but no way to lose your Malconvoker abilities. Being a Malconvoker is so dangerous to your very soul because there are NO CONSEQUENCES for going astray.

[Hellpyre]

No - as I point out in my OP, there are no ex-Malconvokers. Look in the same book, Complete Scoundrel. There are ex-Gray Guards and so on, but no way to lose your Malconvoker abilities. Being a Malconvoker is so dangerous to your very soul because there are NO CONSEQUENCES for going astray.

That's not quite the same thing. I don't suggest that you might lose access permanently (or until atonement) by failing the prerequisites, but rather that you might simply lose it for the duration that you do not fulfill the prerequisites. As far as it goes, I don't play by that particular rule interpretation when I DM, but it is a common one and one that you may well consider when making such a sweeping statement.

More to the point, feats specifically DO need to meet their prerequisites at all times, which means combining the Corrupt Summoning feat with the Celestial Summoning Specialist feat is something you can't do, Malconvoker or no.

[Hellpyre]

I feel like I'm coming across as arguing against your entire premise, when really I just disagree with the conclusion you end up with. The fluff of the Malconvoker is very clear that the point is to fight fire with fire, and the alignment component is meant to structure it towards that aim of using evil to disrupt evil. The fact that the abilities are generically useful instead of specifically preying on evil foes are why it might be appealing power-wise for an evil character, but I think that they are such merely to allow non-combat use of your PrC abilities.

I don't think that most, or even many, Malconvokers tend towards evil alignment as they progress. I see the archetypical Malconvoker as a firebrand priest or a 'greater good' puppetmaster - someone who has a clear and burning passion to do what is right, even if the means are less than savory. You bluff a summoned demon into believing it serves the Blood War to devour that dark priest of Asmodeus, even as you bind a devil to track and capture a rogue necromancer, promising that it will quicken its path to advancement by doing so.

You have the opportunity to corrupt yourself by trafficking with the lower hells for personal power, but most people I would expect to take up the mantle of Malconvoker abhore evil, and wouldn't want to bargain for personal power rather than simple and well-in-hand muscle. It could still damn you to call a devil and sign a pact, as that isn't prevented by your get-out-of-[evil]-descriptor-free card, but the person who would consider the very idea of a pact with darkness for personal gain isn't what I see as a Malconvoker. That's just a regular fiend-summoner.

A Malconvoker is a Malconvoker because they want to hurt evil twice over in battle, not because they always wanted to have demonic buddies.

[Darg]

I think you've misunderstood the Malconvoker, and should take a look at Complete Scoundrel. This is nothing to do with "fooling" evil creatures to serve your non-evil. Rather it is about forcing them to do whatever you demand. The opening fluff text has this -

“Take him, my slaves! Drag his soul back to your dark masters!”
—Argyll Te’Shea, servant of Pelor and malconvoker



Again, Malconvokers aren't convincing evil creatures to not be evil anymore. The possible slide to evil is specifically mentioned in the fluff about the Vital Pact. When you bluff an evil outsider, you are not convincing them to reject evil, you are tricking them into serving you longer. "At 1st level, you can attempt to trick evil creatures you conjure into serving you for longer than they normally would".

Servant of Pelor, saying evil things, as a malconvoker. Yeah, totally not bluffing to his slaves for sure.

As for not being evil, a malconvoker tricks the evil entities summoned into fighting for non-evil causes. The biggest convincing factor is your immunity to the alignment slide for summoning evil beings.

[NNescio]

Servant of Pelor, saying evil things, as a malconvoker. Yeah, totally not bluffing to his slaves for sure.

As for not being evil, a malconvoker tricks the evil entities summoned into fighting for non-evil causes. The biggest convincing factor is your immunity to the alignment slide for summoning evil beings.

Well, it's Pelor. You know.

*mumble* zarus *mumble* burning hate *mumble*

[redking]

I feel like I'm coming across as arguing against your entire premise, when really I just disagree with the conclusion you end up with. The fluff of the Malconvoker is very clear that the point is to fight fire with fire, and the alignment component is meant to structure it towards that aim of using evil to disrupt evil. The fact that the abilities are generically useful instead of specifically preying on evil foes are why it might be appealing power-wise for an evil character, but I think that they are such merely to allow non-combat use of your PrC abilities.

Yes. The fluff is also clear that the Vital Pact might be a trick. The Malconvoker might start off with good intentions, but slowly slides towards diabolism under the influence of clever fiends.

The point is, in RAW and RAI and in the fluff itself, that there is a possibility that a malconvoker might fall to evil. If its a PC it can't be forced. But I can see it easily happen to an NPC. Where is Argyll Te’Shea, servant of Pelor and malconvoker now? Perhaps Argyll bound a Pit Fiend, who informed Argyll that the Pit Fiend too is a servant of Pelor - Pelor the Burning Hate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum). The Pit Fiend is convincing, and Argyll's alignment slowly changes over time. So slowly he barely even registers it happening.

When Argyll finally falls to evil, he will meet the entry requirements to the Thrall of Pelor PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?298006-D-amp-D-3-5-PrC-Thrall-of-Pelor-(Pelor-the-Burning-Hate)-Update-PEACH).

[Buufreak]

When you start throwing around that many might and perhaps, you aren't in a realm of raw or rai, and instead in one of fiat. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Yeah this is all speculation, not a bit of RAW or RAI to it. If the malconvoker is bargaining normally with the fiends why is Bluff still required to use the class features and not Diplomacy or Intimidate?

It's nice you came up with a WMG theory but it's only that

[noob]

Yeah this is all speculation, not a bit of RAW or RAI to it. If the malconvoker is bargaining normally with the fiends why is Bluff still required to use the class features and not Diplomacy or Intimidate?

It's nice you came up with a WMG theory but it's only that

Twist: the bluff check is against yourself?

[redking]

Yeah this is all speculation, not a bit of RAW or RAI to it. If the malconvoker is bargaining normally with the fiends why is Bluff still required to use the class features and not Diplomacy or Intimidate?

Malconvoker: [Bluff check] "I am not evil. I using evil to fight evil".
Demonicus, evil demonlord of evil: "Everyone that calls me is evil. Its definitionally evil".
Malconvoker: "Is not. Look around you. You are in the temple of Pelor. That's Pelor's altar over there".
Demonicus: "Is that some blood dripping down from that altar? How DID you perform this planar binding anyway? This... this magic circle written in blood".
Malconvoker: [Bluff checks furiously] "OBEY ME, EVIL SLAVE OF GOOD! Do my bidding!"
Demonicus: "Fine. I'm not here to judge people anyway".