Alert + Pyrotechnics > concentration-free Blur

[Merudo]

Beside the +5 to initiative and immunity to surprise, Alert also makes it so that creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

The Pyrotechnics spells can create a 20-foot radius cloud of smoke that heavily obscures the area, without using up concentration.

Combine the two and enemies will attack you at disadvantage when you are in the smoke cloud. You effectively have a concentration-free Blur. Awesome!

You even are protected against spells and abilities that would require the enemy to see you.

The requirement of a nonmagical flame being available is a non-issue given that you can easily carry a torch, or command your Unseen Servant to do so.

[fbelanger]

You play a solo game?

[JackPhoenix]

You're also a spellcaster, unlike most enemies you'll face, and you prevent yourself from using any spell that require you to see your target.

And anyone with half a brain will simply walk out of the smoke.... not provoking opportunity attacks.... and wait for you outside.

[Merudo]

You're also a spellcaster, unlike most enemies you'll face, and you prevent yourself from using any spell that require you to see your target.

I can just pop out of the smoke, cast my spell, and pop back in.

In any case, many spells don't require sight.




And anyone with half a brain will simply walk out of the smoke.... not provoking opportunity attacks.... and wait for you outside.

I can just come out on the other side of the smoke cloud.

[Oerlaf]

Actually it's quite an interesting idea of how my character could cancel truesight.

I am playing a Valor Bard 8/Rogue 2 with Alert and Sharpshooter. My first turn in battle is greater invisibility plus bonus action Hide, but pyrotechnics is also a bard spell, so if I am in combat against an enemy with truesight, the area of smoke will counter the truesight: according to JC https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/06/does-truesight-sees-through-physical-things/ "Truesight pierces darkness but is no help against physical things (fog, smoke, bushes, etc.) that obscure".

[micahaphone]

man, imagine travelling with a twitchy wizard who sets off smoke bombs at your feet the instant his instincts told him something was attacking him. I'm sure the party loves that.

[Fable Wright]

Actually it's quite an interesting idea of how my character could cancel truesight.

I am playing a Valor Bard 8/Rogue 2 with Alert and Sharpshooter. My first turn in battle is greater invisibility plus bonus action Hide, but pyrotechnics is also a bard spell, so if I am in combat against an enemy with truesight, the area of smoke will counter the truesight: according to JC https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/06/does-truesight-sees-through-physical-things/ "Truesight pierces darkness but is no help against physical things (fog, smoke, bushes, etc.) that obscure".

Ironically, my group actually had to rule against Crawford there just because the party was abusing Flying Snakes too much, and we're in an area were Truesight is a lot more common than Darkvision. Blinded is simply the best condition you can inflict on people, and Heavy Obscurement is just a really cheap way to inflict it on a whole group of people with no save, as long as you break the symmetry.


man, imagine travelling with a twitchy wizard who sets off smoke bombs at your feet the instant his instincts told him something was attacking him. I'm sure the party loves that.

Honestly, that's pretty nice. It means that your first warning that there's an enemy is that you're in a smoke bomb as the wizard begins telling you what he saw, rather than a bunch of arrows sticking you after a cry of wizardly surprise. Would be better if it were a Fog Cloud, though, since that's a lower level slot and everyone in the party can Ready actions for the moment that the Cloud goes down.

[DarknessEternal]

Your equation is incorrect.

It should read:
Alert + Pyrotechnics = Blur + no save Blindness on self

and both of those are much, much worse than just Blur.

[Merudo]

Your equation is incorrect.

It should read:
Alert + Pyrotechnics = Blur + no save Blindness on self

and both of those are much, much worse than just Blur.

What's the issue with Blindness on myself when it's not my turn?

Remember, I can easily step out of the smoke cloud on my turn.

[JackPhoenix]

What's the issue with Blindness on myself when it's not my turn?

Remember, I can easily step out of the smoke cloud on my turn.

How does that help you? You still can't see the enemy if they're in the smoke, or on the other side of the smoke. And if they are outside and waiting for you, they still get to attack you.

[MaxWilson]

Beside the +5 to initiative and immunity to surprise, Alert also makes it so that creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

The Pyrotechnics spells can create a 20-foot radius cloud of smoke that heavily obscures the area, without using up concentration.

Combine the two and enemies will attack you at disadvantage when you are in the smoke cloud. You effectively have a concentration-free Blur. Awesome!

You even are protected against spells and abilities that would require the enemy to see you.

The requirement of a nonmagical flame being available is a non-issue given that you can easily carry a torch, or command your Unseen Servant to do so.

Concentration-free heavy obscurement in a 20' radius, nice find! I hadn't thought about this one before but it's nice. Too bad it's not evoc/abj or Eldritch Knights could make better use of it.


You're also a spellcaster, unlike most enemies you'll face, and you prevent yourself from using any spell that require you to see your target.

And anyone with half a brain will simply walk out of the smoke.... not provoking opportunity attacks.... and wait for you outside.

And then you shoot them full of arrows/Fire Bolts/etc. until they switch to a different strategy.


Your equation is incorrect.

It should read:
Alert + Pyrotechnics = Blur + no save Blindness on self

and both of those are much, much worse than just Blur.

Technically by RAW heavy obscurement only your enemies, not you. "A heavily obscured area–such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage–blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix PH-A) when trying to see something in that area." You're trying to look out of the area, so by RAW you can see your enemy perfectly well--he just can't see you. It's no-concentration Greater Invisibility.

However, the RAW is dumb, and many DMs and even players who would benefit from the RAW dislike it, and will rule that it blocks vision in both directions. Normally this would mean that advantage + disadvantage cancel out, but that's where Alert comes in.

You can shoot the enemies without disadvantage (and even with advantage, by strict RAW), and they have disadvantage to attack you back. In most ways it's pretty good, although it does prevent you from Counterspelling them or casting certain other spells on them. On the other hand, it also means they can't Counterspell you, etc.

Overall it's an advantage.

[Merudo]

Concentration-free heavy obscurement in a 20' radius, nice find! I hadn't thought about this one before but it's nice.

Thanks!


And then you shoot them full of arrows/Fire Bolts/etc. until they switch to a different strategy.

There are quite a few useful Wizard spells that don't require sight. Just for level 1-3, there is:

- Grease
- Flaming Sphere
- Scorching Ray
- Shatter
- Web
- Fireball
- Lightning Bolt
- Hypnotic Pattern (won't work on creatures inside the cloud)
- Fear
- Slow



Technically by RAW heavy obscurement only your enemies, not you. "A heavily obscured area–such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage–blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix PH-A) when trying to see something in that area.

The rule got errated, now it reads


A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.

I think most DMs would agree that a smoke cloud obscures vision both ways.

EDIT: The errata I mentioned was a fake one, the text ended up being different.

[MaxWilson]

The rule got errated, now it reads

I think most DMs would agree that a smoke cloud obscures vision both ways.

Are you quoting directly from a late-printing PHB? I ask because that sounds like the medium-old version: specifically it sounds like the version that was printed in prior versions of the Errata, before the Errata switched to quoting directly from new-printing PHBs.

AFB but AFAIK the current PHB uses the wording I quoted, “A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area.”

[Goggalor]

You can shoot the enemies without disadvantage (and even with advantage, by strict RAW), and they have disadvantage to attack you back. In most ways it's pretty good, although it does prevent you from Counterspelling them or casting certain other spells on them. On the other hand, it also means they can't Counterspell you, etc.

Overall it's an advantage.

I do not see how you are getting rid of disadvantage. If you and the target both are obscured, how are you taking a ranged shot with any kind of accuracy? Past five feet, how is the caster negating the disadvantage? With being hidden from the target? RAW may allow it, but RAI says the target could have moved anywhere (and probably did with any kind of intelligence score above 1) during the time you cast and then shoot. The caster would be, at best, guessing the target's location.

To the OP:

As DM, I would simply do the following with one enemy, while the rest focused on the others outside of your obstruction.

Enemy - Ready Action to Shoot/Counter-spell/Cast x Spell at Pyrotechnics Caster if (and when) He Steps Out of the Obstruction.

Even better if the enemy doing that has some form of ranged trip or way of dropping the caster's movement to 0 (via spell or item).

[MaxWilson]

I do not see how you are getting rid of disadvantage. If you and the target both are obscured, how are you taking a ranged shot with any kind of accuracy? Past five feet, how is the caster negating the disadvantage? With being hidden from the target? RAW may allow it, but RAI says the target could have moved anywhere (and probably did with any kind of intelligence score above 1) during the time you cast and then shoot. The caster would be, at best, guessing the target's location.

You have advantage for the target not being able to see you, and disadvantage for not being able to see the target. Advantage + disadvantage = nothing.

I'm not going to get into a debate on how stealth and hiding work--ask your DM what a reasonable hearing distance is and play accordingly.

[Merudo]

Are you quoting directly from a late-printing PHB? I ask because that sounds like the medium-old version: specifically it sounds like the version that was printed in prior versions of the Errata, before the Errata switched to quoting directly from new-printing PHBs.

AFB but AFAIK the current PHB uses the wording I quoted, “A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area.”

Oh my god, you are right.

I can't believe it! They screwed it up again!

[Theaitetos]

It's more of a concentration-free Fog Cloud. I just wrote about its awesomeness yesterday, e.g. how it cripples beholders, fiends, drow, …



I just researched Fog Cloud a little and WOW! That spell is freaking amazing! It counters so many things that enemies without Dispel Magic or wind spells will have a hard time fighting against you. Did you know that you can completely neutralize a freaking Beholder with it? The Beholder's only anti-magic is a cone that suppresses all magical effects inside – including his own eye rays! So a Beholder can see you while suppressing the Fog Cloud in his cone, but then he can't fire at you. :smallbiggrin: Or he aims his cone elsewhere, but then he's effectively blinded and can't fire at you. :smallcool:
It also works against those with Darkvision, so enemies like Drow or fiends lose their advantages in (magical) darkness against you (and you thought you needed the Light cantrip). :smalltongue: Higher-level Drow usually have Dispel Magic, but Fog Cloud only needs a 1st-level spell-slot, while Dispel Magic needs a 3rd-level slot. Sure, you can't target enemies either, but you can still cast non-targeted spells like Thunderclap.
You probably won't use it in normal encounters, but in any other case it's extremely versatile and highly effective: You can use it as cover for your party to flee or maybe even sneak past enemies. It negates Darkvision, Devil's Sight, and True Sight! It helps setting up an ambush or getting out of being ambushed. It can be used as a preparation for non-targeted AoE spells like Thunder-/Fireball. So that's a very nice Domain spell you have there. :smallsmile:

[greenstone]

One issue with this is that hidden is not the same as unseen.

[Merudo]

One issue with this is that hidden is not the same as unseen.

The errata fixed that.

[korvanos]

The errata fixed that.

I was just browsing this thread and realized I missed last year's errata. Going to download it right now! Thanks!