How do you "fix" an allip

[Novalesca]

Simply enough I want a way to change an allip from being insane to not being insane, should Greater restoration work? wish? limited wish? Any thoughts or ideas are open. I do not wish to kill it.

I am the DM. I could just BS my way through this but I care too much.

[the_david]

The allip is already dead. It's a haunted soul that can't move on to its final rest because it's insane. If you took that insanity away it would find peace and leave to whichever outer plane it should have gone to in the first place and becomes a petitioner.

Considering it was driven to suicide by insanity that would be the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. Some guys just can't catch a break.

[Novalesca]

The allip is already dead. It's a haunted soul that can't move on to its final rest because it's insane. If you took that insanity away it would find peace and leave to whichever outer plane it should have gone to in the first place and becomes a petitioner.

Considering it was driven to suicide by insanity that would be the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. Some guys just can't catch a break.

Yeah but how do i keep an allip around the party and fix them to talk to them?

[the_david]

You can't, because it would immediately move on to its afterlife.

And technically, there isn't even anything to fix. There's no specific affliction that can be removed, and it's immune to mind affecting effects like Calm Emotions.

There might be some kind of divination spell that can help you get answers.

[daremetoidareyo]

Song of the dead and charm/dominate monster?

[magic9mushroom]

Simply enough I want a way to change an allip from being insane to not being insane, should Greater restoration work? wish? limited wish? Any thoughts or ideas are open. I do not wish to kill it.

Resurrection/True Resurrection is likely a necessity; you may need something else after they're back.

[Novalesca]

Daremetoidareyo Thank you it does help a bit but not there yet.

Magic9mushroom Thanks but I need something to keep them Alive'nt but be able to talk. like a ghost with no special effects.

[Novalesca]

You can't, because it would immediately move on to its afterlife.

And technically, there isn't even anything to fix. There's no specific affliction that can be removed, and it's immune to mind affecting effects like Calm Emotions.

There might be some kind of divination spell that can help you get answers.


I can't have it leave. it has to stay. There is something to fix. You can't talk to it.

[NontheistCleric]

Polymorph any object it into a form that doesn't suffer from inherent insanity.

It might still need some kind of therapy, but without the inherent insanity it's conceivable whatever mental problems left could be roleplayed away, or at least gotten to a relatively stable state.

Oh, and it's incorporeal, so a ghost trap spell or something similar would be necessary first.

[Firest Kathon]

So, RAW (Rules As Written) the only way to stop the abilities of the Allip is to put it in an antimagic field or similar effect. Their abilities are (su), so they will be suppressed. There is no RAW way (that I know of) to remove these abilities.

If you want to talk with them, you can use any method that you can use with other intelligent creatures which have no language, such as telepathy (from a spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/telepathicBondLesser.htm), powers, or creatures (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)), thought detection (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm), teaching them sign language, etc. You can simply cure the Wisdom damage from the Madness ability later. If they have anything to say to you is another thing altogether...

Now, these are all short-term solutions. If you are looking for a permanent "cure", there is none written. However, your GM may allow any number of things to work, such as the Restoration spell you suggested. It's certainly within the powers of Miracle and Wish, but these are "GM may I please" anyways. the_david raised an excellent point in that based on the description, an Allip cured of its madness should pass on to the afterlife, as nothing holds it on the material plane anymore. However it may stay long enough to communicate with you.

[Firest Kathon]

Polymorph any object it into a form that doesn't suffer from inherent insanity.

This does not work, as you keep your supernatural and spell-like abilities when polymorphing. Polymorph any Object (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) references Polymorph (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), which references Alter Self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm), which says:


You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form.

[NontheistCleric]

I was more assuming that the insanity was symptomatic of being an allip itself, rather than specifically having an ability called 'Madness'. After all, a perfectly sane undead spellcaster could alter self into an allip and use Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability to gain the Madness ability, yet it probably wouldn't automatically turn them insane.

Or would it?

[Novalesca]

So, RAW (Rules As Written) the only way to stop the abilities of the Allip is to put it in an antimagic field or similar effect. Their abilities are (su), so they will be suppressed. There is no RAW way (that I know of) to remove these abilities.

If you want to talk with them, you can use any method that you can use with other intelligent creatures which have no language, such as telepathy (, teaching them sign language, etc. You can simply cure the Wisdom damage from the Madness ability later. If they have anything to say to you is another thing altogether...

Now, these are all short-term solutions. If you are looking for a permanent "cure", there is none written. However, your GM may allow any number of things to work, such as the Restoration spell you suggested. It's certainly within the powers of Miracle and Wish, but these are "GM may I please" anyways. the_david raised an excellent point in that based on the description, an Allip cured of its madness should pass on to the afterlife, as nothing holds it on the material plane anymore. However it may stay long enough to communicate with you.

I Do apologize I failed to mention I am the DM for this campagn. I was looking for a way without a macguffin or deus ex machina. I do realize the inherent flaw in choosing the allip. but repeating that it fails because SRD and RAW is not fun or fair. I believe there has to be a way. I was thinking of a few like for example.

Limited wish cast alongside dimensional anchor stops the insanity and keeps it there. but an allip that is not insane? a ghost? what would that make but that is a secondary annoyance. I realize I could just say "your good intentions shine forth" and make it into something else like a ghost with no abilities but that is boring and it detracts from the story. Simply enough. The PCs NEED to speak to the allip, they want to speak to the allip and it cannot leave. I don't want this to be "WOTC said no, so no." nor do I want to "DM says it is fine so fine" I want to use this as a way to solve a problem I am having. There is a few allips in an area that could explain a monster that made them become this way. The problem is, The monster is gone and the players want to help these poor souls AND gain intel.

[Novalesca]

I was more assuming that the insanity was symptomatic of being an allip itself, rather than specifically having an ability called 'Madness'. After all, a perfectly sane undead spellcaster could alter self into an allip and use Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability to gain the Madness ability, yet it probably wouldn't automatically turn them insane.

Or would it?

Please make a separate thread for this question lest it consume this convo.

[Psyren]

So, RAW (Rules As Written) the only way to stop the abilities of the Allip is to put it in an antimagic field or similar effect. Their abilities are (su), so they will be suppressed. There is no RAW way (that I know of) to remove these abilities.

While this will stop its abilities, it will also wink it out, so any resulting conversation would be pretty one-sided :smalltongue:


I can't have it leave. it has to stay. There is something to fix. You can't talk to it.

I think it's going to be a lot easier to talk to it from the afterlife than it will be to try and get past all the crap specifically designed to keep you from talking to it while it's a monster - especially if your party is capable of 7th-level arcane and divine spells.

[Novalesca]

While this will stop its abilities, it will also wink it out, so any resulting conversation would be pretty one-sided :smalltongue:



I think it's going to be a lot easier to talk to it from the afterlife than it will be to try and get past all the crap specifically designed to keep you from talking to it while it's a monster - especially if your party is capable of 7th-level arcane and divine spells.

FINALLY a new veiwpoint! Thank you. But speak with dead is a no go. There is normally zero talking to the afterlife. It can't be done in this campagn. Please continue helping.

[Keltest]

I Do apologize I failed to mention I am the DM for this campagn. I was looking for a way without a macguffin or deus ex machina. I do realize the inherent flaw in choosing the allip. but repeating that it fails because SRD and RAW is not fun or fair. I believe there has to be a way. I was thinking of a few like for example.

Limited wish cast alongside dimensional anchor stops the insanity and keeps it there. but an allip that is not insane? a ghost? what would that make but that is a secondary annoyance. I realize I could just say "your good intentions shine forth" and make it into something else like a ghost with no abilities but that is boring and it detracts from the story. Simply enough. The PCs NEED to speak to the allip, they want to speak to the allip and it cannot leave. I don't want this to be "WOTC said no, so no." nor do I want to "DM says it is fine so fine" I want to use this as a way to solve a problem I am having. There is a few allips in an area that could explain a monster that made them become this way. The problem is, The monster is gone and the players want to help these poor souls AND gain intel.

I think part of the problem is that an allip that isn't insane is definitionally not an allip. It might be "boring", but having them find some means of changing its fundamental nature into some other kind of spirit (or, I guess, resurrecting it) is your best bet. If none of the existing spirit types work for you, make one up for it to transform into.

[NontheistCleric]

Another idea: Tongues 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature'. Although it 'does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak', if you cast it on the allip itself, that shouldn't be a problem.

[Novalesca]

I think part of the problem is that an allip that isn't insane is definitionally not an allip. It might be "boring", but having them find some means of changing its fundamental nature into some other kind of spirit (or, I guess, resurrecting it) is your best bet. If none of the existing spirit types work for you, make one up for it to transform into.

I hate this but it might be the only way. I nixed reviving spells. I don't like the revolving door to life. Too many ways to revive pcs. Death is final. but yeah thanks my dude.

[Novalesca]

Another idea: Tongues 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature'. Although it 'does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak', if you cast it on the allip itself, that shouldn't be a problem.

Out of the box and out of the park! Thank you!

[Keltest]

Another idea: Tongues 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature'. Although it 'does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak', if you cast it on the allip itself, that shouldn't be a problem.

I think this still has the problem of how the Allip is going to communicate with the party. It may understand them, but its not speaking an unknown language, its just incoherent. Allips cant speak intelligibly, so even if they understand what youre saying, they cant muster up the mental coherence to respond in a way you can understand.

Perhaps combining this with some sort of telepathic ability, and just eating the wisdom damage?

[Psyren]

FINALLY a new veiwpoint! Thank you. But speak with dead is a no go. There is normally zero talking to the afterlife. It can't be done in this campagn. Please continue helping.

...Was my viewpoint new? I was more or less agreeing with the_david. All I added was the reason why AMF wouldn't work.


Another idea: Tongues 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature'. Although it 'does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak', if you cast it on the allip itself, that shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think speaking a different language is the Allip's problem. The problem is that nothing it says is coherent, which Tongues won't fix.

Ninja'd by Keltest

[NontheistCleric]

I think this still has the problem of how the Allip is going to communicate with the party. It may understand them, but its not speaking an unknown language, its just incoherent. Allips cant speak intelligibly, so even if they understand what youre saying, they cant muster up the mental coherence to respond in a way you can understand.

Well, it could be argued that an inability to speak a language coherently is indeed an inability to speak the language. If every time I try to speak English, my speech impediment resulting from deep-seated insanity causes the words to come out as a meaningless babble, then I can't really speak English. The magic of tongues, however, explicitly makes speech possible.

As pointed out throughout this thread, though, there is still the insanity problem. But there are some insane people who can speak and be understood by sane people, so if the speech problem is solved, the allip in question might be one of those people.

[Segev]

There’s always Speak With Dead. Let the allip count as a valid replacement for the usual corpse.

Or you could use it in place of a corpse for Create Greater Undead and transform it into a shadow or ghost while also using some sort of madness-curing magic. Or using such cures on the newly-minted insane ghost or shadow.

Or cure it, then follow it into Pandemonium to rescue the now-sane soul and shepherd him to a more pleasing afterlife. (Will require Plane Shift or other similar magic.)

[the_david]

I think your best option is to find the corpse that goes with the allip and cast Speak with Dead on it. Raise Dead might be possible too. Without the corpse this is going to be a lot harder. You might need to kill the allip first anyway.

Why do you need to speak with the allip anyway? And what's your party capable of? (Levels, classes, etc.)

[Novalesca]

Thank you all for your answers I consider this topic closed now. I have my answer. Homebrew FTW. RAW sucks.

[Psyren]

Well, it could be argued that an inability to speak a language coherently is indeed an inability to speak the language. If every time I try to speak English, my speech impediment resulting from deep-seated insanity causes the words to come out as a meaningless babble, then I can't really speak English. The magic of tongues, however, explicitly makes speech possible.

If I speak a bunch of random english words - or even random syntactically correct sentences like "Radishes actualize desktops fundamentally!" then I'm successfully speaking the language even if I'm not conveying any coherent meaning. Tongues makes it possible to understand what you're saying - it doesn't force you to say anything meaningful, and allips explicitly can't.



Why do you need to speak with the allip anyway? And what's your party capable of? (Levels, classes, etc.)

This is my question. Does the allip actually have information the party needs? Or are they hell-bent on talking to it and you as the DM don't want to simply tell them they'd be wasting their time in most other campaigns?

[ShurikVch]

How about the Ability Rip spell from Serpent Kingdoms (persisted, if necessary)?
Firstly, control the Allip and order them to fail the Fort save...

[RatElemental]

FINALLY a new veiwpoint! Thank you. But speak with dead is a no go. There is normally zero talking to the afterlife. It can't be done in this campagn. Please continue helping.

Speak with dead isn't talking with the afterlife though, it's talking to corpses. The spell specifically states that you don't pull the soul back, you just interrogate the corpse it was once inside of because the memories are still in said corpse. It can't make any new memories at all though.

[Troacctid]

Heart's ease (BoED) is a 3rd level spell that cures insanity (as well as fear, despair, and any lingering psychological effects of torture) and leaves the target feeling refreshed and at ease. It's not restricted to living creatures, so it should work on an allip.

EDIT: Wait, no, I just noticed it has the mind-affecting tag. So you'd need to get past that somehow.

[tyckspoon]

Heart's ease (BoED) is a 3rd level spell that cures insanity and leaves the target feeling refreshed and at ease. It's not restricted to living creatures, so it should work on an allip.

It's also a Mind-Affecting, Compulsion, Enchantment, which means undead are immune to it by way of undead type traits. If you can find a way around that (Song of the Dead metamagic? Houseruling around it some other way?) it seems to otherwise be perfectly suited to the question. (I'd probably have it bring the Allip to sensibility just long enough to answer a question for the players and then beg them to destroy it now that it is capable of understanding what its existence is.)

[Khatoblepas]

Assuming that an allip's madness and unintelligibility come from the abilities Babble and Madness, you just need some way of getting rid of them. Luckily, they are Supernatural abilities, so we have an in there.

Serpent Kingdom's Ability Rip transfers one Supernatural ability to another temporarily, but that's not what we want. We want this part:

In exchange for this new ability, the recipient permanently loses a supernatural ability it already possesses. If it has none to exchange, it instead loses two class levels (or 2 Hit Dice if it has no class levels).

So you need to get your Paladin to stand next to the Allip, and cast Ability Rip twice to give the Allip Detect Evil and Divine Grace or something, in exchange for the Allip losing Madness and Babble. However - this spell only works on two LIVING creatures, and is Fort negates. We're outta luck, right? Wrong. Spark of Life, in Libris Mortis, makes an Undead not immune to Fort neg. spells, and makes them for all intents and purposes, living.

Spark of Life > Ability Rip > Ability Rip > Allip without Madness or Babbling.

[Thurbane]

How about the Ability Rip spell from Serpent Kingdoms (persisted, if necessary)?
Firstly, control the Allip and order them to fail the Fort save...

Unfortunately undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort save. You'd need to apply Spark of Life first.

[Doctor Awkward]

There is nothing in the rules that explicitly allows an allip to be cured of its insanity, but there is also nothing that prevents it. The rules are also silent as to what happens when an allip is cured of its insanity so that is up to you as the DM to decide.

As Greater Restoration is not limited to living creatures, it should logically cure the insanity of an allip just fine. Protection from Evil and Death Ward will make the caster utterly immune to all of the allip's effects for the duration of the 10 minute casting time. You need only keep it from fleeing.

[Vaern]

Something I like to bring up in discussions involving undead is the bit in the PHB about voluntarily foregoing saving throws to accept an effect. It says that even creatures with special resistances to magic, such as an elf's immunity to sleep effects, can suppress the quality to willingly accept an effect (it's also on the SRD, but doesn't list any specific examples).
Immunity isn't a major inconvenience if they actually want to be affected by something. You only need to get rid of it if you need to affect the creature against its will - generally an issue for players trying to figure out a way to make a specific spell work on a certain creature - but this shouldn't be an issue for a DM working on his own character. "Not subject to," on the other hand, means they can't be affected whether they want to or not, making it harder to work around, but fortunately that isn't standing in our way here.
Spark of Life may not work with Ability Rip, though. The spell says that it makes the target vulnerable to many dangers that threaten the living, stripping them of a specific list of the defenses and immunities that come with the undead type, but it doesn't say that they are actually considered to be living for the effects of spells that specifically target living creatures. They still have the undead type, and "living creature" is defined on the SRD as meaning "creatures other than constructs and undead."
The allip could, however, willingly accept the effect of the previously mentioned Heart's Ease spell despite its undead immunities to the spell to be relieved of the emotional torment that haunts it. The madness that the allip suffers from is listed as an ability rather than an affliction, though, so it's arguable whether the spell would actually suppress its insanity. The next issue would be the line that says that allips are incapable of speaking intelligibly, though if you just chalk that up to their babble ability then you could argue that curing their insanity also fixes that problem as well.

My question is, why does it have to be an allip? An allip is defined pretty much entirely by its madness. If you take that away then wouldn't you be just as well off making this character a ghost instead? Would curing it of its insanity turn it into a ghost anyway, since its form is described as being twisted by its madness?

[NontheistCleric]

If I speak a bunch of random english words - or even random syntactically correct sentences like "Radishes actualize desktops fundamentally!" then I'm successfully speaking the language even if I'm not conveying any coherent meaning. Tongues makes it possible to understand what you're saying - it doesn't force you to say anything meaningful, and allips explicitly can't.

Actually, this isn't true. The Allip's entry in the Monster Manual specifies that it cannot speak intelligibly; there could be a completely coherent message intended by the creature, it just wouldn't be understandable by others.

Of course, the creature is insane and it's grasp of reality may be weak, but that doesn't change the fact that it may have meaning behind its words that it simply cannot articulate. Insanity doesn't mean complete absence of coherent thought. After all, it still has an Intelligence score, does it not?

In fact, the fact that the OP has given his allips a message and expects the PCs to be able to receive this message if they are able to breach the intelligibility barrier suggests that at least in his game world, this is true.

[Clementx]

Speak with dead on the corpse if it is relatively fresh is the easiest RAW way to get answers from something that has died and become an allip. Destroying the allip will allow resurrection or higher magic to return the creature to full life and sanity. This is intended to be how unlucky players get back in the game, not for information gathering from peasants.

If the body is not available for DM reasons, but you need the story beat, DM fiat is called for. Some combination of turning, Religion checks, and magic circle vs evil sound like good building blocks for a binding ritual scene. Remove curse/break enchantment are reasonable options for ways to get temporary coherence from the allip. More drama if the caster loses the protection from the ritual/has to get sealed with the allip. That gives you a natural time limit (the caster's resistance to madness) to keep this situation a story tool rather than a public health care solution.

[Ashtagon]

iirc, the DMG includes notes that says the DM can allow turn undead to be used to channel divine energy for arbitary special effects. Temporarily cancelling the allip's insanity enough to talk for a minute seems to fall within this remit.

Correction: Chapter 1 of Defenders of the Faith.

[ShurikVch]

Proper State spell (from Ghostwalk) turns willing Incorporeal Undead into a Ghost

[Ruethgar]

The Hypnosis skill can mend madness. A dimensional anchor should keep them on the plane.

[Psyren]

Actually, this isn't true. The Allip's entry in the Monster Manual specifies that it cannot speak intelligibly; there could be a completely coherent message intended by the creature, it just wouldn't be understandable by others.

Of course, the creature is insane and it's grasp of reality may be weak, but that doesn't change the fact that it may have meaning behind its words that it simply cannot articulate. Insanity doesn't mean complete absence of coherent thought. After all, it still has an Intelligence score, does it not?

In fact, the fact that the OP has given his allips a message and expects the PCs to be able to receive this message if they are able to breach the intelligibility barrier suggests that at least in his game world, this is true.

That's exactly my point though. Their entry says they can't speak intelligibly - casting a spell that lets you understand the language they're speaking doesn't change that. At best all you've done by casting it is created an unstoppable-force-meets-immovable-object problem.

As for "in his game world" - that phrase denotes a houserule, which the OP (at least prior to giving up on the thread) explicitly didn't want.

[NontheistCleric]

That's exactly my point though. Their entry says they can't speak intelligibly - casting a spell that lets you understand the language they're speaking doesn't change that. At best all you've done by casting it is created an unstoppable-force-meets-immovable-object problem.

As for "in his game world" - that phrase denotes a houserule, which the OP (at least prior to giving up on the thread) explicitly didn't want.

'Intelligible' means 'able to be understood', and accordingly, 'unintelligible' means 'unable to be understood', not 'meaningless'. Just because what the allip says can't be understood doesn't mean it doesn't intend meaning behind its utterances. Casting a spell upon it that lets it be understood potentially allows that meaning to be comprehended by others.

As for 'in his game world', there's no houserule there either way. It's simply a matter of whether allips can have meaning that they wish to convey, which the rules do not preclude, so it's up to the DM. A DM could have their allips be barely-sentient, unthinking monsters, but they could also be mad, yet capable of cognition and attempts at communication (which their inherent speech impediment and (Su) abilities would of course impede to a significant degree). The rules say that an allip cannot communicate effectively ('intelligibly'), not that their ineffective communication must be devoid of intended meaning.

Just because someone is insane doesn't mean it's impossible to have meaningful communication with them, and although their meanings may not necessarily fit with reality, that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Raishoiken]

So it says an allip cannot speak intelligibly, but it doesn't say they're not allowed to write intelligibly. If you cure it of it's madness using any of the aforementioned methods, shouldn't it be able to write things down somehow, given the thing they're writing with is a ghost touch pencil or something?

[Psyren]

'Intelligible' means 'able to be understood', and accordingly, 'unintelligible' means 'unable to be understood', not 'meaningless'. Just because what the allip says can't be understood doesn't mean it doesn't intend meaning behind its utterances. Casting a spell upon it that lets it be understood potentially allows that meaning to be comprehended by others.

You're casting a spell that lets you understand something that cannot be understood, by RAW. Unstoppable force, immovable object.

[Keltest]

You're casting a spell that lets you understand something that cannot be understood, by RAW. Unstoppable force, immovable object.

Even beyond this, youre making the assumption that theyre trying to communicate anything in the first place. It seems to me that the intended takeaway is that they cant be understood because they aren't actually saying anything, not because its locked behind layers of linguistic misunderstanding.

[Powerdork]

iirc, the DMG includes notes that says the DM can allow turn undead to be used to channel divine energy for arbitary special effects. Temporarily cancelling the allip's insanity enough to talk for a minute seems to fall within this remit.

Correction: Chapter 1 of Defenders of the Faith.

Player's Handbook agrees with that sentiment, see p. 160, "Other Uses for Positive or Negative Energy"

Positive or negative energy may have uses other than affecting undead. For example, a holy site might be guarded by a magic door that opens for any good cleric who can make a turning check high enough to affect a 3 HD undead and that shatters for an evil cleric who can make a similar check.

I wanted to know once if there was any substance behind that or if it was a throwaway line nobody really expected to see use, but didn't get this answer on this forum. Obscure, isn't it.

[NontheistCleric]

You're casting a spell that lets you understand something that cannot be understood, by RAW. Unstoppable force, immovable object.

Well, D&D 3.5 is an exception-based rules system, is it not? Generally, yes, you can't understand what an allip is trying to say, but when you cast a spell that lets you understand it, there's no reason the spell wouldn't work.

Just like how a person who speaks only Dwarven cannot be understood, by RAW, by someone who only speaks Common, but tongues can circumvent that.


Even beyond this, youre making the assumption that theyre trying to communicate anything in the first place. It seems to me that the intended takeaway is that they cant be understood because they aren't actually saying anything, not because its locked behind layers of linguistic misunderstanding.

Okay, you could interpret it as 'they aren't actually saying anything', but even insane people can have coherent thoughts and attempt to communicate them, even though those thoughts may not fit with reality and in the case of the allip, part of their nature causes verbal communication to fail.

It's not beyond the realm of reason to speculate that with all that babbling an allip does, at least some is a genuine attempt to convey something to others.

[Psyren]

Just like how a person who speaks only Dwarven cannot be understood, by RAW, by someone who only speaks Common, but tongues can circumvent that.

Where in the Dwarf entry does it say they cannot communicate intelligibly? I'm not seeing it in my monster manual or PHB.



It's not beyond the realm of reason to speculate that with all that babbling an allip does, at least some is a genuine attempt to convey something to others.

Speculating is great, nobody is saying you shouldn't. But speculation is not RAW, and that's what OP wanted.

[NontheistCleric]

Where in the Dwarf entry does it say they cannot communicate intelligibly? I'm not seeing it in my monster manual or PHB.

Firstly, I'm not talking about Dwarves in particular, just a hypothetical only-Dwarven speaker. Make it an Abyssal speaker, or a Celestial one, or any language that is not spoken by the second party in the scenario.

It wouldn't be intelligible, or to use the more common term, understandable, by someone who only spoke Common, simply be definition. They wouldn't understand it, I don't think this is in question. The allip happens to have a clause in its description that means it cannot speak understandably at all, but tongues, which 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature', allows it to do so.


Speculating is great, nobody is saying you shouldn't. But speculation is not RAW, and that's what OP wanted.

The point is that the content of that speculation is not precluded by RAW, so if a DM says that is how things work in their world, it's not homebrew and although 'not RAW', also not opposed to RAW, existing in that area outside the rules. Now, going by what OP said, his world already has allips that work that way. He just needed to get around the RAW problem that the allip needs to be understood by others.

Thus, tongues.

[Keltest]

It wouldn't be intelligible, or to use the more common term, understandable, by someone who only spoke Common, simply be definition. They wouldn't understand it, I don't think this is in question. The allip happens to have a clause in its description that means it cannot speak understandably at all, but tongues, which 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature', allows it to do so.

Tongues doesn't actually grant it the ability to be understood though. It just means they can speak the language. If theyre just spouting gibberish, a Tongues spell is just going to translate the gibberish as much as is possible, not read their mind and make a coherent sentence from nothing.

[Psyren]

Firstly, I'm not talking about Dwarves in particular, just a hypothetical only-Dwarven speaker. Make it an Abyssal speaker, or a Celestial one, or any language that is not spoken by the second party in the scenario.

It wouldn't be intelligible, or to use the more common term, understandable, by someone who only spoke Common, simply be definition. They wouldn't understand it, I don't think this is in question. The allip happens to have a clause in its description that means it cannot speak understandably at all, but tongues, which 'grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature', allows it to do so.

Which brings us right back to unstoppable...

I think we're going in circles.


The point is that the content of that speculation is not precluded by RAW, so if a DM says that is how things work in their world, it's not homebrew and although 'not RAW', also not opposed to RAW, existing in that area outside the rules. Now, going by what OP said, his world already has allips that work that way. He just needed to get around the RAW problem that the allip needs to be understood by others.

Thus, tongues.

Right, and this goes back to the original problem I had with tongues. It allows you to understand the language of a creature, not the creature itself. I can understand your language perfectly and still have no idea what you're trying to say, simply because you're not actually saying anything coherent in that language which I understand. Have you ever tried having a conversation with someone who was blackout drunk or talking in their sleep?

...Ninja'd by Keltest again

[NontheistCleric]

Tongues doesn't actually grant it the ability to be understood though. It just means they can speak the language. If theyre just spouting gibberish, a Tongues spell is just going to translate the gibberish as much as is possible, not read their mind and make a coherent sentence from nothing.

Yes, but there is no reason what they are saying must be gibberish. That's the point. Maybe the allip always had something to say, but before, they simply didn't have the ability to speak words that others could understand. With tongues, they now can. It's not that the spell reads its mind, rather, the spell gives the allip the ability to speak understandable words, which it can use to make coherent sentences.

Once it has the language ability, there is no reason it should not be able to form a coherent sentence. I feel this is the point you and Psyren are missing.

Yes, it is still insane. Very insane. But insane people can still form coherent sentences. They can still have thoughts, based on a form of reason and whatever warped view of the world they possess, and they can attempt to convey those thoughts.

Usually, the allip does not succeed, because by its nature, it cannot speak intelligibly, but this is remedied by tongues.


Which brings us right back to unstoppable...

I don't know where you are getting unstoppable from. Nothing in the allip's entry suggests that it's inability to speak intelligibly is unstoppable by any means.

[The Glyphstone]

Why does it need to be an Allip? It sounds like what you want is a Ghost, one that can be as sane or insane as you need it to be for the plot to happen.

[Thurbane]

Why does it need to be an Allip? It sounds like what you want is a Ghost, one that can be as sane or insane as you need it to be for the plot to happen.

With OP as the DM, I would imagine one of two scenarios:

1.) The DM wants a creature with the Allips particular set of abilities, minus the madness.

2.) The DM wants a specific Allip, the remains of a particular individual, to be able to pass info on to the PCs.

[Psyren]

Yes, but there is no reason what they are saying must be gibberish. That's the point. Maybe the allip always had something to say, but before, they simply didn't have the ability to speak words that others could understand. With tongues, they now can. It's not that the spell reads its mind, rather, the spell gives the allip the ability to speak understandable words, which it can use to make coherent sentences.

Once it has the language ability, there is no reason it should not be able to form a coherent sentence. I feel this is the point you and Psyren are missing.

Yes, it is still insane. Very insane. But insane people can still form coherent sentences. They can still have thoughts, based on a form of reason and whatever warped view of the world they possess, and they can attempt to convey those thoughts.

Usually, the allip does not succeed, because by its nature, it cannot speak intelligibly, but this is remedied by tongues.


You're the one tying its unintelligibility to its insanity. Neither we nor the monster entry are doing that, nor are we saying anything about insane creatures (or people) more generally.

Allips have two qualities that are listed separately in their statblock - they are permanently insane, and they cannot be understood. Perhaps these qualities were intended to be related, but by RAW, fixing one does not remove the other.

[NontheistCleric]

You're the one tying its unintelligibility to its insanity. Neither we nor the monster entry are doing that, nor are we saying anything about insane creatures (or people) more generally.

Allips have two qualities that are listed separately in their statblock - they are permanently insane, and they cannot be understood. Perhaps these qualities were intended to be related, but by RAW, fixing one does not remove the other.

But this is exactly what I'm saying! We're in complete agreement! The allip is still insane, absolutely! But since being insane doesn't mean one doesn't have anything to say (and OP's allips apparently do), or that if one had language, one could not use it properly, once tongues comes into the equation and gives the allip that language, the OP's problem that his PCs can't receive his allips' messages is solved.

Wait, or is the confusion that you think I'm trying to remove the insanity by removing the unintelligibility? Because I'm not, as although the OP initially stated he wanted to remove the insanity, he later made it clear that he felt the insanity should not be removed but that he still wanted a way for the allips to speak with the PCs.

I don't know where you got that I was tying the unintelligibility to its insanity. That was not a position I ever took.

[Psyren]

We're not in agreement, because I don't think Tongues removes the allip's inability to speak intelligibly. All it does is let you understand their language, but nothing in their entry states that language, sanity or any other root cause you can name is the reason for them being impossible to understand - they simply can't be, by RAW.

Again, I can perfectly understand the language of someone who is saying random words/sentences - for example someone who is completely drunk, intentionally trolling, or yes, someone who is insane - but understanding their language doesn't mean I can understand them. So I agree with those saying that an allip is the wrong tool for the job here, and that's that.

[Bohandas]

This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.

What it says may still be insane, but while the allip is under the effects of the spell it will at least be intelligible

EDIT:

So without the spell the allip might say something like "the country runs. run. it runs and illuminates" but with the spell it would be able to intelligibly say "the illuminati run the country".

EDIT:
Of course, this is arguably worse

[RatElemental]

This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.

What it says may still be insane, but while the allip is under the effects of the spell it will at least be intelligible

EDIT:

So without the spell the allip might say something like "the country runs. run. it runs and illuminates" but with the spell it would be able to intelligibly say "the illuminati run the country".

EDIT:
Of course, this is arguably worse

I would argue that both examples given are intelligible. You can at least discern what words are being used, even if how they're being used makes no sense.

[NontheistCleric]

We're not in agreement, because I don't think Tongues removes the allip's inability to speak intelligibly. All it does is let you understand their language, but nothing in their entry states that language, sanity or any other root cause you can name is the reason for them being impossible to understand - they simply can't be, by RAW.

Again, I can perfectly understand the language of someone who is saying random words/sentences - for example someone who is completely drunk, intentionally trolling, or yes, someone who is insane - but understanding their language doesn't mean I can understand them. So I agree with those saying that an allip is the wrong tool for the job here, and that's that.

You're confusing 'intelligible' with 'meaningful'. If you can perfectly understand the language of someone saying random words, that means they are speaking intelligibly, though not meaningfully. The allip's problem is not meaning, it's intelligibility.

Once tongues is cast, the intelligibility problem is removed. The allip can speak, and it never had an inherent problem with meaningfulness, so it can now speak with coherence and meaning, insane though that meaning may be.

And of course, maybe if it was some random allip, it might not have any meaning or message at all to convey, so it might still spout nonsense, or say nothing, but in the case of OP's allip, it has something it wants to tell the PCs.


So without the spell the allip might say something like "the country runs. run. it runs and illuminates" but with the spell it would be able to intelligibly say "the illuminati run the country".

Well, your first example is still intelligible as English (or Common?), so not really. By necessity, for it to be truly unintelligible, the allip would have to be making totally random sounds that could not be understood in any sense.

EDIT: RatElemental managed to say it first.

[Bohandas]

I would argue that both examples given are intelligible. You can at least discern what words are being used, even if how they're being used makes no sense.

Yes, but only in the second one is it "making itself understood"

[King of Nowhere]

You can't, because it would immediately move on to its afterlife.


would it?
there are several options around it.

the simplest way is that there is something else keeping the allip from the afterlife. perhaps the allip went insane as a result of something else, which prevented it from entering the afterlife in the first place.
or perhaps the allip, once cured, won't move to the afterlife immediately. perhaps you immediately move when you die, but if you miss your call then, you will linger for a long time. days, weeks. centuries? plenty of time to talk.
perhaps you can keep the allip there with an evocation circle. just like an evocation circle prevents a summoned monster from leaving, maybe it will also keep the allip there.

[Ruethgar]

or perhaps the allip, once cured, won't move to the afterlife immediately. perhaps you immediately move when you die, but if you miss your call then, you will linger for a long time. days, weeks. centuries? plenty of time to talk.

As I recall, Ghostwalk covered this. It is indeed not immediate, I would treat the cure as a new death so they can, IIRC, will save vs going to the stream of souls. AFB rn but that's what I recall.

[Keltest]

Yes, but only in the second one is it "making itself understood"

I understand the meanings of the words equally well in both examples. The second one communicates a point better, but Tongues only translates languages, it doesn't suddenly make you eloquent when you weren't previously.

[NontheistCleric]

It may not make you eloquent, which involves a whole set of skills many never learn, but what it does do is give you a perfect technical knowledge of the language, which the subject of the spell should then be able to utilize to convey their desired meaning.

[Keltest]

It may not make you eloquent, which involves a whole set of skills many never learn, but what it does do is give you a perfect technical knowledge of the language, which the subject of the spell should then be able to utilize to convey their desired meaning.

But Allits are already at least fluent in the language theyre already speaking. Its not their linguistic skills that are the problem.

[Ruethgar]

You know, kinda rules lawyery, but telepathy isn't speaking. Sure, you have to contend with the Wisdom damage, but it could theoretically communicate that way in a more meaningful fashion depending on how you fluff a particular method of telepathy. If its more of an empathic telepathy gleaning meaning rather than direct words it might work(aka non-language dependent) it could work.

[Bohandas]

I understand the meanings of the words equally well in both examples. The second one communicates a point better, but Tongues only translates languages, it doesn't suddenly make you eloquent when you weren't previously.
Yes, but not what its trying to day. Word salad is not "making yourself understood"

[Keltest]

Yes, but not what its trying to day. Word salad is not "making yourself understood"

No, but it requires them to be saying something coherent in the first place. Running gibberish through google translate wont magically make it a coherent sentence in another language.

Putting it another way, if I speak a riddle, casting tongues wouldn't give you the answer to the riddle, it would just translate it such as is possible.

[NontheistCleric]

But Allits are already at least fluent in the language theyre already speaking. Its not their linguistic skills that are the problem.

No, they're not. They don't have a language. By their nature, they can only make unintelligible babbling. Maybe they're trying to say something, but whatever the case, they simply don't have the language for it.


No, but it requires them to be saying something coherent in the first place. Running gibberish through google translate wont magically make it a coherent sentence in another language.

Yes, by default the allip can only make gibberish noises, which of course cannot be translated as there is no structure to convert to the structure of an actual langauge.

But tongues is not a translation filter. It's more like a straight download of language and the ability to use it into the allip's mind, and so there's no reason why the allip wouldn't be able to use it.

[Hellpyre]

No, but it requires them to be saying something coherent in the first place. Running gibberish through google translate wont magically make it a coherent sentence in another language.

Putting it another way, if I speak a riddle, casting tongues wouldn't give you the answer to the riddle, it would just translate it such as is possible.

I think a better example is speaking from a code book. If I say, "Orange Crow Thirteen Wallace," I may have a clear an definitive meaning in mind, but tounges should by no means break the code for you. You don't get past obfuscation by understanding the language, and there is no reason to assume an allip isn't perfectly conversant in a language it knows. It just doesn't say things that meaning can be derived from. You don't suddenly make it clear what it intends to convey if it cannot put together thoughts to convey it with.

[NontheistCleric]

I think a better example is speaking from a code book. If I say, "Orange Crow Thirteen Wallace," I may have a clear an definitive meaning in mind, but tounges should by no means break the code for you. You don't get past obfuscation by understanding the language, and there is no reason to assume an allip isn't perfectly conversant in a language it knows.

This is correct up until this part:


It just doesn't say things that meaning can be derived from. You don't suddenly make it clear what it intends to convey if it cannot put together thoughts to convey it with.

While it's perfectly true that this might be the case, there's no reason it has to be. As I believe Psyren stated earlier, by RAW there is no connection between an allip's insanity and its unitelligibility, and since simply being insane does not mean one cannot put together the thoughts required for coherent speech, there's no necessary reason an allip under the effect of tongues should be unable to converse.

[Psyren]

But tongues is not a translation filter. It's more like a straight download of language and the ability to use it into the allip's mind, and so there's no reason why the allip wouldn't be able to use it.

No reason other than their statblock saying they cannot speak intelligibly. If Tongues explicitly removed that line it would be one thing, but it doesn't - getting the ability to speak a language does not mean you have to be intelligible in that language.

[Hellpyre]

there's no necessary reason an allip under the effect of tongues should be unable to converse.

Except, of course, the line that states, explicitly An allip cannot speak intelligibly. Since both rules are specific here, generally the prohibition wins out. In much the same way that dimensional anchor works at all, giving it the ability to speak any language doesn't overwrite that it cannot speak intelligibly.

[NontheistCleric]

No reason other than their statblock saying they cannot speak intelligibly. If Tongues explicitly removed that line it would be one thing, but it doesn't - getting the ability to speak a language does not mean you have to be intelligible in that language.

If you can speak a language, you are naturally intelligible in it. You seem to think that a random collection of words would not count as intelligible, but they would. Devoid of intelligible meaning though they might be, the words and speech itself would still intelligible, not that that is relevant as that is not what would happen with an allip.

Tongues necessarily removes that line. The allip can't speak intelligibly, but as giving it the the ability to speak any language at all would make it capable of speaking intelligible words in that language and that is what tongues does, the line would be gone.


Except, of course, the line that states, explicitly An allip cannot speak intelligibly. Since both rules are specific here, generally the prohibition wins out. In much the same way that dimensional anchor works at all, giving it the ability to speak any language doesn't overwrite that it cannot speak intelligibly.

No, generally allips cannot speak intelligibly, but the specific rule that tongues allows them to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature would overcome that. Just as how generally, a Dwarven-only speaker could not speak or understand a Common-only speaker, but tongues would also overcome that.

[Psyren]

You seem to think that a random collection of words would not count as intelligible, but they would. Devoid of intelligible meaning though they might be, the words and speech itself would still intelligible, not that that is relevant as that is not what would happen with an allip.

It is relevant; meaning is inherent in the definition of the word. "Able to be understood; comprehensible." An allip cannot be comprehended, and Tongues won't change that - it will simply give them an understandable/recognizable language to be incomprehensible in, much like a drunk person can speak English incomprehensibly. Allips cannot speak intelligibly.


Tongues necessarily removes that line.

Tongues doesn't make the creature comprehensible, it only gives them a comprehensible language. Meaning is still dependent on what they say, which in an Allip's case, is "nothing that can be intelligible.

[Raishoiken]

You know, kinda rules lawyery, but telepathy isn't speaking

Nor is writing, as i mentioned before

[NontheistCleric]

It is relevant; meaning is inherent in the definition of the word. "Able to be understood; comprehensible." An allip cannot be comprehended, and Tongues won't change that - it will simply give them an understandable/recognizable language to be incomprehensible in, much like a drunk person can speak English incomprehensibly. Allips cannot speak intelligibly.

The key point is, once it gets the language, it does become intelligible. The words, at least, are themselves intelligible. It's no longer true that it cannot speak intelligibly; it would be perfectly capable of, at the very least, saying a single word in the language and having it be understood. Even if, as you maintain, it would not be able of forming coherent sentences with those words, it would still possess a degree of intelligibility.

Since the statement that it cannot speak intelligibly is now untrue, there's no reason it should hold true in any way for the effect's duration.


Tongues doesn't make the creature comprehensible, it only gives them a comprehensible language. Meaning is still dependent on what they say, which in an Allip's case, is "nothing that can be intelligible.

Tongues explicitly does this:


The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries.

If nothing else, it's literally a function of the spell that the subject can be understood.

[Vaern]

Nor is writing, as i mentioned before
But an allip isn't listed as being able to speak any languages to begin with, so it has no languages to be literate in.

[Raishoiken]

But an allip isn't listed as being able to speak any languages to begin with, so it has no languages to be literate in.

Combo equals:

-Relieve Allip of insanity

-Somehow make a ghost touch pencil

-Bestow comprehend languages upon it and have it read/copy words from a dictionary or something similar. The spell lets it know what the words it's reading mean, and if it just copies the shapes (letters) that mean what it wants then proceed to

-profit??

[Keltest]

The key point is, once it gets the language, it does become intelligible. The words, at least, are themselves intelligible. It's no longer true that it cannot speak intelligibly; it would be perfectly capable of, at the very least, saying a single word in the language and having it be understood. Even if, as you maintain, it would not be able of forming coherent sentences with those words, it would still possess a degree of intelligibility.

Since the statement that it cannot speak intelligibly is now untrue, there's no reason it should hold true in any way for the effect's duration.



Tongues explicitly does this:



If nothing else, it's literally a function of the spell that the subject can be understood.

Being able to speak intelligibly still requires that we be able to understand him. Simply recognizing the words doesn't mean any meaning is successfully conveyed, and without that its still not intelligible.

And the tongues spell is specifically referring to the capacity to make yourself understood in another language, not period. As I said earlier, if somebody is saying something in an unclear way, the tongues spell doesn't fix that.

[RatElemental]

The way D&D treats languages as if they were just radio frequencies you either have access to or don't kind of turns the whole thing into absurdity as soon as you try to explain what's going on with spells like tongues anyway.

[Segev]

The way D&D treats languages as if they were just radio frequencies you either have access to or don't kind of turns the whole thing into absurdity as soon as you try to explain what's going on with spells like tongues anyway.
Why? The abstraction of not having varying levels of proficiency is a touch unrealistic, but hardly ruinous. Most people either do or do not speak a given language with “sufficient” proficiency, anyway.

Tongues just makes you speak all languages fluently. I don’t see how this is a hard to grasp thing, nor how it creates weirdness if you think about it or look at corner cases. I can’t even see corner cases. If the barrier to communication is no shared language, Tongues overcomes it. If the barrier to communication is something else, Tongues doesn’t really help.

[RatElemental]

Why? The abstraction of not having varying levels of proficiency is a touch unrealistic, but hardly ruinous. Most people either do or do not speak a given language with “sufficient” proficiency, anyway.

Tongues just makes you speak all languages fluently. I don’t see how this is a hard to grasp thing, nor how it creates weirdness if you think about it or look at corner cases. I can’t even see corner cases. If the barrier to communication is no shared language, Tongues overcomes it. If the barrier to communication is something else, Tongues doesn’t really help.

Yes, but many idioms and even sometimes words have no good way to translate them into certain other languages and which ones are going to be a problem changes when you change either the language you're translating to or from. It would take some linguistic skill even if the spell made you fluent in everything, and if it's translating everything for you it'd have to be borderline sentient to get it right more often than not.

[Segev]

Yes, but many idioms and even sometimes words have no good way to translate them into certain other languages and which ones are going to be a problem changes when you change either the language you're translating to or from. It would take some linguistic skill even if the spell made you fluent in everything, and if it's translating everything for you it'd have to be borderline sentient to get it right more often than not.

Eh, missing idioms isn't a huge deal. IT can either be glossed over with "it's magic; you get their intent," or it can be a fun way to play up cultural differences without having the language barrier making interaction impossible.

I mean, heck, you can have idomatic problems just between New Yorkers and Texans, or Americans and British, or English and Welsh (without even getting into accents and the fact that Welsh is its own language). Moving from Missouri to Texas, I had a number of times where I had to ask what a given idiom referenced. That said, context usually makes the meaning clear, but not always.

Tongues doesn't generally handle idioms, but if the DM and players don't want to bother making up idiomatic miscommunication problems, it can gloss over them just fine.