Wizard Level Dips: Cleric or Artificer?

[ravenkith]

1 level dips:
So, with the advent of the Artificer class, I've heard a lot of people talking about how that class is now the automatic 1 level dip for wizards. As in, if you're going to dip 1 level of anything, it better be artificer, much like a 1 level dip in warlock (hexblade) is often the automatic choice for sorceror. Some have even referred to it as the new Hexblade.

Unfortunately, I'm just not convinced.

While yes, the barrier for entry is practically nonexistent (as you only have to have an intelligence of 13, which you are going to want to have ANYWAY as a wizard), the benefits just are NOT as swish as the ones you get from Hexblade.

For instance, while you CAN get to the point where you use INT for attacks and damage with the artificer, much like Hexblade allows you to do with CHA, this doesn't kick in for the artificer until you take your third level in the class and go battlesmith.

While Artificer does give you light and medium armors and shields right away, once again you need to go all the way to 3rd and battlesmith to get martial weapons.

Of course, you DO get proficiency with constitution saving throws out of the deal, which you DON'T get with Hexblade, so the artificer does have it's own merits, but in my mind, the 1 level dip into artificer is simply NOT as 'automatic' as a hexblade dip.

I can easily see situations where Cleric (assuming you can spare the 13 in wisdom) is the superior choice. After all, you automatically get the same BASE equipment proficiencies just by taking the 1st level, you also get to pick 3 cantrips off the cleric list, as opposed to 2 off the artificer list, and then you get to pick a domain on top of that, with varying results right away, potentially giving you access to heavy armor and martial weapons immediately with the war domain, or the Tempest Domain (neither of these is particularly optimal).

Alternatively, you can grab other domains, like the death domain, forge domain, knowledge domain, Life domain, Nature Domain, or Order domain to back up whatever shtick you may be interested in for your character, many of which have some pretty powerful abilities, as opposed to the artificers flavorful but not impressive magical tinkering.

Add into this the full progression of cleric as opposed to the 1/2 progression of artificer, and frankly, the waters get pretty muddy.

Multi-level Dips
While I could potentially see dipping artificer 3 levels to pair with Wizard, it wouldn't be for battlesmith, but rather the artillerist. Battlesmith looks pretty enough, giving you INT to attack and damage, and with the steel defender et al, but frankly, even with all the spells you'd have available to you as a wizard, planning to be in melee on a regular basis with *that* class chassis is, frankly, probably a poor idea, even if you do go blade singer or war wizard.

Just in terms of fragility and giving up spell progression, the benefits, at least in my opinion, do not outweigh the costs.

On the other hand, an artillerist/diviner, with the right build, could be a pretty good match. The eldritch cannon class feature gives you some things to do with your first levels spells that provide long-lasting benefits. extending the utility of your wizard so that he can have more stamina, which can be critical in certain time-crunch campaigns.

In addition, there is the usual goodness of your portents, but now the divination class feature of recovering lower level spell slots, when combined with the right spells, can become much more useful than would otherwise be the case.

The Mind Spike spell, for instance, becomes more attractive, given that it can be used for the listed purpose, but also allows you to generate first levels slots for use with your reaction spells (absorb elements/shield) and your eldritch cannons. Given that it also scales, you can use it to create a waterfall effect with some of your spell slots, turning a higher level slot into a lower level slot at will, without having to take a bunch of divination spells at every level.

Now, I know a lot of you are probably like "What? Why would you ever want to use a higher level slot for anything other than a higher level spell???" Well, to that I say "Spell resistance" and "situational casting".

Yup. Let's say you're a batman wizard, and you want to have a utility belt that is ready for pretty much anything. You may well have a 6th level spell, like chain lightning, that is awesome against crowds and does lightning damage galore, but TODAY, you're up against a single, badass something that is lightning immune.

Your other 6th level spell is True seeing.

Neither of these spells is going to make that 6th level spell slot effective, and ordinarily, you'd have to upcast something to get use out of it - which most of the time isn't a great idea - but now, you don't just upcast a will save for half PSYCHIC damage of 7d8, you ALSO get a 5th level spell back, which you can use to cast something with a little more oomph that doesn't have to worry about the critter's resistance to lightning damage, like synaptic static, wall of force, or wall of stone or something.

Plus, you can almost ALWAYS make another first level slot to fuel your reaction self protections, or your go-all day cannons that are either constantly spamming flamethrowers, force blasts or temporary hit points, depending on your situation.

You also get your artificer infusions. Keep in mind that you DON'T have to be the one who benefits from these, but enhanced defense and enhanced focus could be decent for you, especially at low levels.

The combined abilities and the enhanced survivability at low levels especially help make up for the retarded spell progression. When combined with a variant (winged) feral tiefling with the criminal (stealth/Perception) background, you can make a character that is fun for the long haul, with really only three key ability scores: Int/Dex/Con, which not so coincidentally are the 3 most important saves in the game.

THE CONCLUSION?:
I don't know if artificer actually lends itself to dips all that well, not when compared to cleric/Wiz or hexblade/Sorc. It may well be a giant trap for most builds, especially with it's 1/2 progression.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Merudo]

Spell-wise, I think the spells you got from a level 1 dip into Artificer are slightly better than what you'd get from a 1 level dip into Cleric.

The Cleric gets an extra cantrip, access to Healing Word, 2-3 spells and 2 domain spells with a low spell DC, while the Artificer will eventually get 6 more spells that scale off intelligence instead of Wisdom.

A few observations:

- Utility cleric cantrips beside Guidance are bad. I'd rather take a Thorn Whip that scales with intelligence or Firebolt instead of, say, Mending and Light
- Cleric domain spells are mostly junk for a low WIS character, only Magic Missile (Arcana) and maybe Speak with Animals (Nature) of serious value
- I love Sanctuary, and the Artificer will eventually cast it with a much higher DC than the Cleric
- Being able to prepare Absorb Elements, Grease, Feather Fall, and Longstrider as Artificer spells can clear out many Wizard preparation slots

The artificer dips also gives proficiency in CON saves, which is roughly worth 1/2 an ASI.

Now big questions: how valuable are the domain features, and how hard is it to qualify for the Cleric multiclass?

I'd say that in most cases, qualifying for the Cleric will cost roughly 1 ASI. In my opinion, no Cleric feature is worth 1/2 ASI + 1 ASI = 1.5 ASI, so the Artificer usually comes ahead.

Examples:

- With point-buy you could get INT 15/CON 15/DEX 14 Artificer, or a INT 15/CON 15/DEX 12/WIS 13 Forge Cleric. With medium armor, the Forge Cleric and Artificer would start with the same AC, although the Forge Cleric will fall behind once the Artificer gets a magical shield and armor. The artificer gets proficiency in CON saves. The Artificer is clearly the better option here.

- A better choice would be for the Forge Cleric to wear heavy armor, but you won't be able to afford 15 STR. This means suffering an hefty -10 speed penalty. To get back some mobility, you'll likely have to either spend an ASI on STR, or get the Mobile feat. I don't think the +2/+1 AC you get over the Artificer is worth giving up an ASI + proficiency in CON saves.

- An interesting choice would be to go Hill Dwarf Forge Cleric. Then you can dump STR and DEX, and wear heavy armor with only get a -5 to speed instead of a -10. This however restricts your build. You'll also have to wait until level 8 before you can get both 16 INT and a concentration feat. Meanwhile a variant human Artificer could start with 16 INT, 16 CON, proficiency in CON saves and an extra feat on top of that. Is the +1/+2 to AC and the Dwarf benefits worth it? I don't think so.

[Teaguethebean]

I feel the Hexblade granting Charisma to attack and martial weapons is kinda a non point as I doubt the wizard would even want to go into melee they simply wanted con saves, medium armor, and shields and artificer gives you that without the madness of cleric making it an obvious choice. Cleric could still be better for certain builds sure but 6 spells, 2 cantrips and theives tools as well is nothing to scoff at.

[stoutstien]

I feel the Hexblade granting Charisma to attack and martial weapons is kinda a non point as I doubt the wizard would even want to go into melee they simply wanted con saves, medium armor, and shields and artificer gives you that without the madness of cleric making it an obvious choice. Cleric could still be better for certain builds sure but 6 spells, 2 cantrips and theives tools as well is nothing to scoff at.

I think it was a comparison for Cha focused classes not necessarily an actual multi-class option for the wizard.

[MrStabby]

I think it was a comparison for Cha focused classes not necessarily an actual multi-class option for the wizard.

Yes, but I think the response holds. A wizard doesn't really want to add int to attack rolls as they don't want to be making weapon attacks. There are a good range of charisma classes that get two attacks and can really make use of this.

[stoutstien]

Yes, but I think the response holds. A wizard doesn't really want to add int to attack rolls as they don't want to be making weapon attacks. There are a good range of charisma classes that get two attacks and can really make use of this.
Ah gotcha. Could see it for bladesinger

[MaxWilson]

1 level dips:
So, with the advent of the Artificer class, I've heard a lot of people talking about how that class is now the automatic 1 level dip for wizards. As in, if you're going to dip 1 level of anything, it better be artificer, much like a 1 level dip in warlock (hexblade) is often the automatic choice for sorceror. Some have even referred to it as the new Hexblade.

Unfortunately, I'm just not convinced.
...

Add into this the full progression of cleric as opposed to the 1/2 progression of artificer, and frankly, the waters get pretty muddy.

...

Thoughts? Comments?

I agree with your basic conclusions but wanted to note that for a single-level dip, cleric and artificer both give exactly the same spell progression. Artificer doesn't fall behind until you take 2+ levels of Artificer, because Artificers explicitly round up when it comes to multiclass spellcasting.


Yup. Let's say you're a batman wizard, and you want to have a utility belt that is ready for pretty much anything. You may well have a 6th level spell, like chain lightning, that is awesome against crowds and does lightning damage galore, but TODAY, you're up against a single, badass something that is lightning immune.

Your other 6th level spell is True seeing.

Also, don't underestimate True Seeing, especially if you've got e.g. a Devil's Sight Warlock or an Alert Darkness Eldritch Knight in your party--anyone who likes to spam darkness spells. Under those circumstances, True Seeing becomes a no-concentration, hour-long Greater Invisibility: advantage on your attacks, disadvantage to your enemies. If you're a Diviner and you get a 5th level spell back from casting it, so much the better.

[Teaguethebean]

I think it was a comparison for Cha focused classes not necessarily an actual multi-class option for the wizard.

Yeah I was more just saying it didn't matter to the comparison.

[kazaryu]

- Utility cleric cantrips beside Guidance are bad. I'd rather take a Thorn Whip that scales with intelligence or Firebolt instead of, say, Mending and Light


or take spare the dying since having more than 2 attack cantrips tends to be fairly pointless. now this comes down to what you're looking for as a player. but from a mechanical standpoint cleric cantrips hold their own. they're just focused more on support utility.



- Cleric domain spells are mostly junk for a low WIS character, only Magic Missile (Arcana) and maybe Speak with Animals (Nature) of serious value

grave: false life
life: bless, cure wounds
Nature: animal friendship
tempest: fog cloud
trickery: disguise self
war: shield of faith.

just because you personally don't like these spells, doesn't make them bad options. again, it depends on the wizard




- I love Sanctuary, and the Artificer will eventually cast it with a much higher DC than the Cleric
- Being able to prepare Absorb Elements, Grease, Feather Fall, and Longstrider as Artificer spells can clear out many Wizard preparation slots


this is true, however, dipping cleric also gives you extra spell preparation slots, why are these options better? again, just because you don't personally value alot of the cleric lvl 1 spells doesn't mean they're bad options. additionally with a level in cleric you can get access to all of the cleric level 1 spells as the need arises. i'll throw you a bone, the artificer dip can prepare more spells. which is definitely good. although its somewhat mitigated by the versatility of the cleric spells.

TL:DR most of the 'benefits' you support are entirely subjective rather than being mechanically based. noone is saying that artificer is a bad option. the contention is that its not always the *best* option.


addendum: and...i mean really since wizards don't give a **** about their lvl 19/20 anyway, why not a 1 level dip into both xD

[Teaguethebean]

grave: false life
life: bless, cure wounds
Nature: animal friendship
tempest: fog cloud
trickery: disguise self
war: shield of faith.

just because you personally don't like these spells, doesn't make them bad options. again, it depends on the wizard

I feel this is a poor choice of spells
Bless is good so you got me there but Faerie fire is a solid replacement
Cure wounds is even better on an artificer as it will be based on int
Shield of Faith honestly I feel falls flat as there are much stronger things to concentrate on as a wizard such as hypnotic pattern, haste, and hold person.
Animal friendship is situational at best and at high levels kinda useless.
And the rest are wizard spells

[ravenkith]

I feel this is a poor choice of spells
Bless is good so you got me there but Faerie fire is a solid replacement
Cure wounds is even better on an artificer as it will be based on int
Shield of Faith honestly I feel falls flat as there are much stronger things to concentrate on as a wizard such as hypnotic pattern, haste, and hold person.
Animal friendship is situational at best and at high levels kinda useless.
And the rest are wizard spells

Consider the Build stub below:

Variant Feral Tiefling (Winged) +2 Dex, +1 Int, Darkvision, resistance to fire, 30' flight speed
Starting Stats (with racial) S 8, D 14, Con 15, I 16, W 13, Cha 8

Cleric (Death) 1, Wizard (Diviner) X

Cleric level 1 you pick up the cantrips: Guidance, Light, Mending, and (from the Reaper ability) Spare the dying. Take the Insight and History skills, with the far traveler background, which will let you pick up perception and insight again, which you trade out for stealth.

You gain access to martial weapons, which will let you get a longbow.

You get light and medium armors and shields.

You grab cure wounds and bless, and get false life and ray of sickness for free. Admittedly, you'll likely never use ray of sickness.

At Character level 2, which would be Wizard level 1, you now take BOTH necromancy cantrips - Chill Touch and Toll the Dead. You also grab minor illusion.

You pick up Absorb Elements, Shield, Sleep , Grease, Thunderwave and Find Familiar for your spell book.

Now, at level 2, you can wear medium armor, and possibly carry a shield, giving you potentially an 18 AC if you want it, with spikes to 23 thanks to shield. You can fly without relying on magic, meaning that unless you are indoors (and using your party mates as meat-shields), you can expect to engage at range, and your flight can never be dispelled (huge advantage).

You have three ranged options available to you, with one having a longer range targeting AC, but being ammunition dependent (the bow), another being medium range (chill touch) Targeting AC and medium damage (d8s) to up to two targets, and the third being shorter range but potentially BIG damage (d12s) targeting the will saves of up to two targets.

You've also summoned a familiar by now to 'help' you get advantage in combat if need be with either the bow or the ranged attack cantrip.

At 2nd level, this is reasonably powerful when compared to other builds until you realize that at this point, you aren't using any resources. You can spam this SHTICK all day and save your spells for emergency protection on yourself or crowd control situations, as required.

Moving forward, you would take 4 more levels of wizard to get to level 5.

At this point, you take Resilient (CON), get proficiency in con saves, bump your CON to 16, and grin wildly as your cantrips have ranked up and now do 2d8 or 2d12 damage per cast or possibly 4d8 or 4d12 damage if there are multiple opponents that are within 5ft of each other. Your ability to effectively endlessly twin spell these cantrips, while somewhat situational, is likely to be very advantageous over the course of your career.

You've also picked up your Portent ability at this point, giving you the ability to change rolls, potentially saving your own ass or making someone else lose theirs.

Add into that the presence of 2nd level spells, adding in Mind Spike, Mirror Image, and Web., and things are starting to heat up.

At 6th level, you get those sweet, sweet 3rd level spells, but 7th level brings the divination waterfall into possible play as well. It's at this point that you also get your first 4th level spell slot, although you can only upcast into that slot; however that's NOT a problem if you use that 4th level spell to cast mind spike, which will give you back an extra 3rd level spell, or you can upcast false life and give yourself 19 temp HP for an hour (shrug).

At level 9, you use your second ASI to bump INT by 2, at level 13 you get Lucky, and then at level 17 you max out your INT to 20. Your final ability score improvement at level 19 is icing on the cake and you can do whatever you like with it.

By the end here, your investment of one cleric level is giving you the ability to do 4d8 or 4d12 damage each to two separate targets with just a cantrip, for a total of 8d8 or 8d12 per round, again with no resource cost (assuming you hit or they fail their save depending on which spell you are using).

Thoughts?

Try just subbing out the cleric level for the artificer level. Losing the "auto twinned" cantrips hurts, and the artificer even strips out the longer range capability of the bow! Your ability to survive at lower levels and the character stamina is compromised pretty badly, don't you think?

[kazaryu]

I feel this is a poor choice of spells
Bless is good so you got me there but Faerie fire is a solid replacement
absolutely, but thats just a wash, not a point in favor of artificers.



Cure wounds is even better on an artificer as it will be based on int

don't forget, we're talking about domain spells. cure wounds means life cleric, which means its 1d8+wis+2+spell level. so *at best* artificer cure wounds heals for 1 extra HP if cast as a lvl 1 spell, the same if cast as a 2nd level. and less if cast higher



Shield of Faith honestly I feel falls flat as there are much stronger things to concentrate on as a wizard such as hypnotic pattern, haste, and hold person.

depends on teh situation. for one, shield of faith is a BA to cast, so its faster to set up. also comparing a lvl 1 spell to higher level spells? i mean come on? lets say you're out of lvl 3 slots.



Animal friendship is situational at best and at high levels kinda useless.

no more situational than speak with animals :shrug:



And the rest are wizard spells

mmmhmm, but they're wizard spells you don't need to prepare with wizard slots. which you touted as a benefit when you were talking about artificer prep slots. similarly you can get things like protection from evil and detect magic without needing to use wizard prep slots.

[Teaguethebean]

absolutely, but thats just a wash, not a point in favor of artificers.

Agreed not a bonus in fact I think bless is a better spell.



don't forget, we're talking about domain spells. cure wounds means life cleric, which means its 1d8+wis+2+spell level. so *at best* artificer cure wounds heals for 1 extra HP if cast as a lvl 1 spell, the same if cast as a 2nd level. and less if cast higher
That is assuming a 14 wis as opposed to the more likely 13 but yes with life cleric it will be equal at the start and taper off but pretty equal.



depends on teh situation. for one, shield of faith is a BA to cast, so its faster to set up. also comparing a lvl 1 spell to higher level spells? i mean come on? lets say you're out of lvl 3 slots.
Totally understandable I was mainly saying you wouldn't waste concentration on a 1st level spell at higher levels and at lower levels it is still beaten out by Faerie fire, and fog cloud.



no more situational than speak with animals :shrug:
Yeah I was mainly saying it wasnt a stand out option.



mmmhmm, but they're wizard spells you don't need to prepare with wizard slots. which you touted as a benefit when you were talking about artificer prep slots. similarly you can get things like protection from evil and detect magic without needing to use wizard prep slots.
I feel this is kinda a non point as sure you dont have to prep them as a wizard but the artificer is getting more spells later on 5 as opposed to the likely 4.

But in all you have made a good point and it certainly isn't an obvious decision if you have the wisdom to spare. I feel the artificer is less an obvious pick over cleric and more an obvious pick over level 20 wizard. The spellcasting progress remain the same and nobody cares about the wizard capstone.

[Dork_Forge]

Consider the Build stub below:

Variant Feral Tiefling (Winged) +2 Dex, +1 Int, Darkvision, resistance to fire, 30' flight speed
Starting Stats (with racial) S 8, D 14, Con 15, I 16, W 13, Cha 8

Cleric (Death) 1, Wizard (Diviner) X

Cleric level 1 you pick up the cantrips: Guidance, Light, Mending, and (from the Reaper ability) Spare the dying. Take the Insight and History skills, with the far traveler background, which will let you pick up perception and insight again, which you trade out for stealth.

You gain access to martial weapons, which will let you get a longbow.

You get light and medium armors and shields.

You grab cure wounds and bless, and get false life and ray of sickness for free. Admittedly, you'll likely never use ray of sickness.

At Character level 2, which would be Wizard level 1, you now take BOTH necromancy cantrips - Chill Touch and Toll the Dead. You also grab minor illusion.

You pick up Absorb Elements, Shield, Sleep , Grease, Thunderwave and Find Familiar for your spell book.

Now, at level 2, you can wear medium armor, and possibly carry a shield, giving you potentially an 18 AC if you want it, with spikes to 23 thanks to shield. You can fly without relying on magic, meaning that unless you are indoors (and using your party mates as meat-shields), you can expect to engage at range, and your flight can never be dispelled (huge advantage).

You have three ranged options available to you, with one having a longer range targeting AC, but being ammunition dependent (the bow), another being medium range (chill touch) Targeting AC and medium damage (d8s) to up to two targets, and the third being shorter range but potentially BIG damage (d12s) targeting the will saves of up to two targets.

You've also summoned a familiar by now to 'help' you get advantage in combat if need be with either the bow or the ranged attack cantrip.

At 2nd level, this is reasonably powerful when compared to other builds until you realize that at this point, you aren't using any resources. You can spam this SHTICK all day and save your spells for emergency protection on yourself or crowd control situations, as required.

Moving forward, you would take 4 more levels of wizard to get to level 5.

At this point, you take Resilient (CON), get proficiency in con saves, bump your CON to 16, and grin wildly as your cantrips have ranked up and now do 2d8 or 2d12 damage per cast or possibly 4d8 or 4d12 damage if there are multiple opponents that are within 5ft of each other. Your ability to effectively endlessly twin spell these cantrips, while somewhat situational, is likely to be very advantageous over the course of your career.

You've also picked up your Portent ability at this point, giving you the ability to change rolls, potentially saving your own ass or making someone else lose theirs.

Add into that the presence of 2nd level spells, adding in Mind Spike, Mirror Image, and Web., and things are starting to heat up.

At 6th level, you get those sweet, sweet 3rd level spells, but 7th level brings the divination waterfall into possible play as well. It's at this point that you also get your first 4th level spell slot, although you can only upcast into that slot; however that's NOT a problem if you use that 4th level spell to cast mind spike, which will give you back an extra 3rd level spell, or you can upcast false life and give yourself 19 temp HP for an hour (shrug).

At level 9, you use your second ASI to bump INT by 2, at level 13 you get Lucky, and then at level 17 you max out your INT to 20. Your final ability score improvement at level 19 is icing on the cake and you can do whatever you like with it.

By the end here, your investment of one cleric level is giving you the ability to do 4d8 or 4d12 damage each to two separate targets with just a cantrip, for a total of 8d8 or 8d12 per round, again with no resource cost (assuming you hit or they fail their save depending on which spell you are using).

Thoughts?

Try just subbing out the cleric level for the artificer level. Losing the "auto twinned" cantrips hurts, and the artificer even strips out the longer range capability of the bow! Your ability to survive at lower levels and the character stamina is compromised pretty badly, don't you think?

That was a very long reply with very little really addressing what Cleric brings to the table, mostly focusing on race and Wizard.

The ability to survive at lower levels isn't really comprised by starting Artificer instead of Cleric. You still get medium armour and shields, you get access to a pretty nice mixed spell list including two cantrips, Magical Tinkering, Con saves (so no need to burn a feat). You don't get a long bow but that hardly seems much of a draw back, you have cantrips and a light crossbow (80ft will be more than adequate for the vast majority of encounters).

So the only real things you're missing are the domain specific abilities you picked out, which hardly make a character (you even framed the twin cantrip as situational). The big difference is you don't need to factor an additional stat requirement into the build and if you go any further it's nothing but synergistic gravy. Infusions? Pick up magic armour and a +1 wand. 3rd level? Pick whatever subclass fits you best, Baldesinger? Go Int SAD with Battle Smith. Blaster/Controller? Grab yourself some turrets.

A Cleric dip is nice, but unless there's something specific you want out of it an Artificer dip makes more sense.

[Teaguethebean]

Thoughts?
Try just subbing out the cleric level for the artificer level. Losing the "auto twinned" cantrips hurts, and the artificer even strips out the longer range capability of the bow! Your ability to survive at lower levels and the character stamina is compromised pretty badly, don't you think?


Firstly you can't fly in medium armor but that doesn't detract much as most dm's veto flying races anyway. Additionally this seems very powerful at mid levels when 2d8 and 2d12 extra do a lot, but at lv20 does 4d8 matter that much? And who spends there turns slinging cantrips beyond a warlock? And you aren't stripped of a long range attack as you can simply pick up fire bolt with either class. The artificer drops the need for wisdom and gives you the con save at lv1.

Come to think of it why don't I throw a build into the ring.
Start at lv1 artificer Mark of Warding dwarf
Str8 Dex14 Con16 Int16 Wis12 Cha8
The main use of this is getting you a formidable ac especially for a wizard at lv1 and allowing you to be a frontline warrior for your team but be slinging spells the entire time. Lv1 Faerie fire is your main spell and thornwhip will drag around foes. Lv1 adds in wizard spells with similar picks as your build but with a stronger Sanctuary from the artificer. By lv3 abjuerer adds to your hitpoints giving you more hp than the fighter, additionally your overleveled slot is being spent on a terrifyingly potent armor of agathys that activates whilst your ward takes damage. This doesn't change much until lv8 when you have fire shield with it plus armor of agathys enemies take 20+2d8 when they attack you and have to chew through arcane ward before they can damage it. In all this build has less at will damage but is certainly more potent in the frontlines and is far more survivable.

[ravenkith]

That was a very long reply with very little really addressing what Cleric brings to the table, mostly focusing on race and Wizard.

The ability to survive at lower levels isn't really comprised by starting Artificer instead of Cleric. You still get medium armour and shields, you get access to a pretty nice mixed spell list including two cantrips, Magical Tinkering, Con saves (so no need to burn a feat). You don't get a long bow but that hardly seems much of a draw back, you have cantrips and a light crossbow (80ft will be more than adequate for the vast majority of encounters).

So the only real things you're missing are the domain specific abilities you picked out, which hardly make a character (you even framed the twin cantrip as situational). The big difference is you don't need to factor an additional stat requirement into the build and if you go any further it's nothing but synergistic gravy. Infusions? Pick up magic armour and a +1 wand. 3rd level? Pick whatever subclass fits you best, Baldesinger? Go Int SAD with Battle Smith. Blaster/Controller? Grab yourself some turrets.

A Cleric dip is nice, but unless there's something specific you want out of it an Artificer dip makes more sense.

(Emphasis mine).

Nope.

Artificer doesn't get infusions at first level. You can't go Battle smith until 3rd level. At that point, you're costing yourself badly in terms of how much you are pushing back your wizard spell selection, and you really aren't getting much out of it that will scale long-term.

Plus, with a three level dip in Battle Smith you are committing the ultimate sin: If you go three levels of artificer up front, you won't get 3rd level wizard spells known until 8th level, instead of 5th as a straight wizard, or 6th as a 1 level dip.

At that point you might as well - no let me go further - you are MUCH BETTER OFF - if you go Eldritch Knight for three levels with a STR warrior and dump DEX, as at least you'd get access to heavy armor, martial weapons, a fighting style, second wind and action surge.

Artificer only really works as a three level dip if you go artillerist, because with the eldritch cannon you are at least coming close to making the dip worth while as it ups your low level spell efficiency dramatically, but it caps out at an extremely low place. BUT, you're basically putting yourself in a situation where you are trading spell progression for the ability to be effective in combat over a longer period of time, and you have to take that into account.


Firstly you can't fly in medium armor but that doesn't detract much as most dm's veto flying races anyway. Additionally this seems very powerful at mid levels when 2d8 and 2d12 extra do a lot, but at lv20 does 4d8 matter that much? And who spends there turns slinging cantrips beyond a warlock? And you aren't stripped of a long range attack as you can simply pick up fire bolt with either class. The artificer drops the need for wisdom and gives you the con save at lvl 1.

Come to think of it why don't I throw a build into the ring.
Start at lv1 artificer Mark of Warding dwarf
Str8 Dex14 Con16 Int16 Wis12 Cha8
The main use of this is getting you a formidable ac especially for a wizard at lv1 and allowing you to be a frontline warrior for your team but be slinging spells the entire time. Lv1 Faerie fire is your main spell and thornwhip will drag around foes. Lv1 adds in wizard spells with similar picks as your build but with a stronger Sanctuary from the artificer. By lv3 abjuerer adds to your hitpoints giving you more hp than the fighter, additionally your overleveled slot is being spent on a terrifyingly potent armor of agathys that activates whilst your ward takes damage. This doesn't change much until lv8 when you have fire shield with it plus armor of agathys enemies take 20+2d8 when they attack you and have to chew through arcane ward before they can damage it. In all this build has less at will damage but is certainly more potent in the frontlines and is far more survivable.

1) Uh, you CAN fly in medium armor; at least according to D&D beyond: the winged trait as listed on that sight says you can't fly in HEAVY armor.

2) I think it's funny that you bag on my character needing a permissive DM, then go out and grab a setting-specific race that will also rely on a permissive DM if you aren't playing eberron, but w/e.

3) As far as the cantrips are concerned, you're forgetting that they are automatically TWINNED, meaning that 4d8/4d12 becomes 8d8 and 8d12, as long as the two targets are within 5 feet of each other. Given that 6th level spell disintegrate does 10d6+40 (max 100) and your cantrip does 8d12 (max 96), I think that's pretty ****ing significant, especially considering that you can do your cantrips a lot more often than you can cast 6th level spells.

Is it going to be the right spell to use in every situation? **** no. But it's basically the equivalent of a six level spell, only split between two targets (granted, it doesn't have the floor disintegrate does, that +40 is beefy, but it's FREE for a 1 level dip, lol). It 's something that will be useful your entire career, and gives you the same ability to enddure in combat that it would take you THREE levels of artificer (artillerist) to replicate, lol.

4) With your build, you claim you can survive in the frontlines, but the issue there is that you are still a fragile, squishy wizard underneath your spells, AND you are using high-level slots to do it (meaning you aren't reserving those slots for any other use, making your efficiency SUCK ASS), AND those spells can be stripped away or countered as well, meaning they do you no good whatsoever.

Any time that you use a high level spell slot on armor of agathys, even WITH abjurer, you're pretty much a chump. The problem with that spell is that while it looks good on paper, it is only good against people who are hitting you in melee. As a wizard, no matter how tough you think you are, if you are PLANNING on being in melee, you have already failed, for one thing, but secondarily, once they figure out you are running agathys, they just back up and ranged or aoe you to death. Much better to drop a 2nd level spell on Mirror image, as it applies to both ranged and melee and negates the damage entirely at a much cheaper cost, but again, w/e.

[Dork_Forge]

(Emphasis mine).

Nope.

Artificer doesn't get infusions at first level. You can't go Battle smith until 3rd level. At that point, you're costing yourself badly in terms of how much you are pushing back your wizard spell selection, and you really aren't getting much out of it that will scale long-term.

Plus, with a three level dip in Battle Smith you are committing the ultimate sin: If you go three levels of artificer up front, you won't get 3rd level wizard spells known until 8th level, instead of 5th as a straight wizard, or 6th as a 1 level dip.

At that point you might as well - no let me go further - you are MUCH BETTER OFF - if you go Eldritch Knight for three levels with a STR warrior and dump DEX, as at least you'd get access to heavy armor, martial weapons, a fighting style, second wind and action surge.

Artificer only really works as a three level dip if you go artillerist, because with the eldritch cannon you are at least coming close to making the dip worth while as it ups your low level spell efficiency dramatically, but it caps out at an extremely low place. BUT, you're basically putting yourself in a situation where you are trading spell progression for the ability to be effective in combat over a longer period of time, and you have to take that into account.



1) Uh, you CAN fly in medium armor; at least according to D&D beyond: the winged trait as listed on that sight says you can't fly in HEAVY armor.

2) I think it's funny that you bag on my character needing a permissive DM, then go out and grab a setting-specific race that will also rely on a permissive DM if you aren't playing eberron, but w/e.

3) As far as the cantrips are concerned, you're forgetting that they are automatically TWINNED, meaning that 4d8/4d12 becomes 8d8 and 8d12, as long as the two targets are within 5 feet of each other. Given that 6th level spell disintegrate does 10d6+40 (max 100) and your cantrip does 8d12 (max 96), I think that's pretty ****ing significant, especially considering that you can do your cantrips a lot more often than you can cast 6th level spells.

Is it going to be the right spell to use in every situation? **** no. But it's basically the equivalent of a six level spell, only split between two targets (granted, it doesn't have the floor disintegrate does, that +40 is beefy, but it's FREE for a 1 level dip, lol). It 's something that will be useful your entire career, and gives you the same ability to enddure in combat that it would take you THREE levels of artificer (artillerist) to replicate, lol.

4) With your build, you claim you can survive in the frontlines, but the issue there is that you are still a fragile, squishy wizard underneath your spells, AND you are using high-level slots to do it (meaning you aren't reserving those slots for any other use, making your efficiency SUCK ASS), AND those spells can be stripped away or countered as well, meaning they do you no good whatsoever.

Any time that you use a high level spell slot on armor of agathys, even WITH abjurer, you're pretty much a chump. The problem with that spell is that while it looks good on paper, it is only good against people who are hitting you in melee. As a wizard, no matter how tough you think you are, if you are PLANNING on being in melee, you have already failed, for one thing, but secondarily, once they figure out you are running agathys, they just back up and ranged or aoe you to death. Much better to drop a 2nd level spell on Mirror image, as it applies to both ranged and melee and negates the damage entirely at a much cheaper cost, but again, w/e.

I'm well aware what level they get infusions and their subclass, that's why I said if you go further (which you even bolded in your quote).

You clearly have a very narrow playstyle definition for a Wizard, delaying 3rd level slots I'd hardly the ultimate sin (if there even is one) and sometimes the player WANTS to be in melee, why? Because they find it fun and it fits the concept. I'd also assume that if someone did go 3 deep for BattleSmith then they probably want to be melee (with Bladesinger etc.).

I'd also argue you're not better off dumping Dex for Str at all just to get Heavy Armour without a speed penalty. Str is damn near useless as a standalone stat outside of HA and great weapons. Dex? One of the most common saves, initiative bonus and several skills tied to it (as well as the majority of AC calculations, good luck with a negative Dex when you're caught out if armour). Overall you mostly replied to the tail end of my post, that if you choose to go beyond the one level dip it's all synergistic gravy, which I stand by. Everyone benefits from Infusions and there's something in each subclass for various play styles. It seems like you don't actually have any objections to the main point of my post, that one level dip in Artificer makes more sense unless you want something specific from a domain.

I'm aware the rest of your post was addressing another user but I'll also cover it, for the record you're also becoming rather abrasive but this might just be something you feel strongly about.

I think Warding Dwarf was more in response to you choosing a flying variant rather than hypocrisy, though you're also assuming a DMG subclass intended mainly for NPCs as available to players.

If you are talking about enemies within 5ft of each other I have to ask if you'd not be better of just using aoe or control spells. The Twinned ability is nice, but I do think you're overselling it, all it takes is necrotic resistance/immunity to make it the sub par choice. It's not really the equivalent of a 6th level spell. You're equating doing 4d8 to two people (potentially) as the same as doing 8d8 to one target, that's apples and oranges. In that scenario why aren't you considering a classic fireball doing 16d6 then? Or even more if there's more enemies? To be honest I'm not entirely sure why you chose Death out of all the domains, let alone arguing the value of cantrips at tier 4 play when slots are still available.

As for point 4, if you counter or strip away spells from any Wizard you're left with little to nothing, you're not arguing against the specific build. The squishy Wizard part is also pretty easily mitigated between higher than average Con (the suggestion WAS a Dwarf), Tough feat, to some degree abjurers ward. You're of the opinion Wizards should always be in the back, okay, that's one way to play not the only 'right' way to do so. It's worth remembering as well, melee happens, you can't always stay out if reach. If the DM wants to hit you with a claw sometimes to challenge the party, you will get hit with a claw. Whether that be an ambush or just an enemy from the mob deciding you know that twinning cantrip guy is getting annoying and rushing you.

You presumably made this thread for people to try and convince or explain to you the value of the Artificer dip over the Cleric dip. If that assumption is wrong then I apologise, but you'd also be better off not making a thread about it.

[Teaguethebean]

1) Uh, you CAN fly in medium armor; at least according to D&D beyond: the winged trait as listed on that sight says you can't fly in HEAVY armor.
My bad I was thinking of aarocokra, I stand corrected.



2) I think it's funny that you bag on my character needing a permissive DM, then go out and grab a setting-specific race that will also rely on a permissive DM if you aren't playing eberron, but w/e.
I hope you understand my build was made to be adventure league legal. So it may be scene as a dm dependent build but it doesn't require more than 2 books.



3) As far as the cantrips are concerned, you're forgetting that they are automatically TWINNED, meaning that 4d8/4d12 becomes 8d8 and 8d12, as long as the two targets are within 5 feet of each other. Given that 6th level spell disintegrate does 10d6+40 (max 100) and your cantrip does 8d12 (max 96), I think that's pretty ****ing significant, especially considering that you can do your cantrips a lot more often than you can cast 6th level spells.
No I wasn't forgetting all I was saying was that you only get an extra 4d8 or 4d12 the cleric doesn't grant you an extra 8d4 or 8d12 additionally I wouldn't use disintegrate regardless as it isn't a reliable spell and also speaking on maximum is rather misleading as average it is very different. As disintegrate is an average of 75 while toll the dead is an average of 52. Still nothing to scoff at but disintegrate is a terrible spell regardless. I would much rather cast chain lightning for 40d8 dealing a staggering 180 average. Really it isn't a contest between disintegrate and chain lightning.


Is it going to be the right spell to use in every situation? **** no. But it's basically the equivalent of a six level spell, only split between two targets (granted, it doesn't have the floor disintegrate does, that +40 is beefy, but it's FREE for a 1 level dip, lol). It 's something that will be useful your entire career, and gives you the same ability to enddure in combat that it would take you THREE levels of artificer (artillerist) to replicate, lol.
I feel the builds achieve different things as mine is a frontline and yours is a ranged damage dealer.



4) With your build, you claim you can survive in the frontlines, but the issue there is that you are still a fragile, squishy wizard underneath your spells, AND you are using high-level slots to do it (meaning you aren't reserving those slots for any other use, making your efficiency SUCK ASS), AND those spells can be stripped away or countered as well, meaning they do you no good whatsoever.
But I'm not a fragile wizard under my spells. I have more hp than a Fighter and have Shield to make my ac near unhittable. Also if an enemy tries to dispel or Counterspell my spells that gives me an excuse to increase my ward as I cast my Counterspell with proficiency. As I said your build has more reliable damage but I can fill a support role far better with a strong sanctuary and thorn whip to force enemies next to me. Also my concentration is in a far better position with advantage and proficiency.



Any time that you use a high level spell slot on armor of agathys, even WITH abjurer, you're pretty much a chump. The problem with that spell is that while it looks good on paper, it is only good against people who are hitting you in melee. As a wizard, no matter how tough you think you are, if you are PLANNING on being in melee, you have already failed, for one thing, but secondarily, once they figure out you are running agathys, they just back up and ranged or aoe you to death. Much better to drop a 2nd level spell on Mirror image, as it applies to both ranged and melee and negates the damage entirely at a much cheaper cost, but again, w/e.
I will disagree heavily as almost all enemies in the game attack with melee attacks or at least there are melee fighters in the fight on the opposing side.
And if the dm is countering me with more spellcaster than good because that is exactly what an abjuerer is good at fighting. Additionally my armor of agathys last a lot longer as I have an extra ward of my wizard level×2+int.

[Merudo]

Death is an ok domain to pick for a War Wizard: it gives a decent use for your action when you activate Arcane Deflection.

I wouldn't consider it for any other Wizard, though. Twinning Toll the Dead starts out okay, but at tier 2 you'll reach the point where you'll only cast cantrips during trivial fights.

[BloodBrandy]

I think it depends heavily on the domain, however, an Artificer is a big boon early on for a Wizard, where a single level in Cleric is probably better in the long run, but only if you are only taking the single level.

A single level in Artificer gives you access to their whole spell list of level 1 as well as proficiency in Light/Medium Armor, Shields, Thieves Tools and Tinker Tools. It also grants the Magical Tinkering feature.

A single level in Cleric gives access to their whole level 1 spell list as well as their level 1 domain spells, proficiency in Light/Medium armor, and a Domain feature.

Looking at these there's a lot to consider that, really, it's difficult to claim either one is best.

Both automatically lend some survivability to the squishy wizard with higher armor and a solid shield (Though for that, the Warcaster feat could play a very important part) and a D8 hit die for that level.

Artificer lends a lot to early game wizards. Keep in mind that a lot of the Artificer spell list has crossover in the Wizard list. This opens the possibility of just adding some of your artificer spells to your wizard book to be prepared as Wizard spells later and you can narrow your prepared Artificer spells as just those Wizards don't get, allowing for some speedy, if pricey, early expansion to your Wizard book. And the fact that Artificer uses the same casting stat means the spells and cantrips used from this class for damage or control will be just as effective as your Wizard ones.

The tool proficiency can be very useful, especially the Thieves Tools if you are dungeon diving or pretty much anything else where you need to set/deactivate a trap or break and/or enter a place you are not meant to be in. Tinker Tools can also be very handy, especially if your game is rolling with the Xanathar's Guide tool rules and such.

Magical Tinkering can be rather RP heavy for a feature, but it's potential can't be understated for leaving messages, tricking others, etc.

Cleric lends some interesting things for a level 1 dip, but a lot of that depends on the domain you select. You for sure get access to the spell list, which does have a few spells in common with Wizards, but the strength of it lays in it being heavily exclusive from the Wizard list for damage, support and healing spells. The draw back is, with a single level, you are left with a lot of options and not a lot of slots to prepare into, and the fact it's a different casting stat leaves some of the spells having less effectiveness as time passes by and you are likely upping your Int or a physical stat like Con (For HP and concentration) or Dex (For Defense).

Anything more depends on which domain you take. Forge Domain, for instance, does give you Heavy Armor, as well as the Identify spell always readied, but Smiths Tools can fall behind others as you likely don't have an actual forge, and Searing Smite is a less likely spell for a wizard to be using as even with the heavy armor, you are rather low HP.

Death domain, though, is martial weapons, and again, even with armor, you are a squishy wizard who may not have the best time running into a sword fight.

Arcana domain sounds good, but you are essentially getting more Wizard spells but cast in a weaker state. The same continues for a lot of other domains where they have something possibly decent, but a part that is honestly not.



I think overall, Cleric has a good bit going for it, as does the artificer, but neither really has the advantage over the other

[kazaryu]

That is assuming a 14 wis as opposed to the more likely 13 but yes with life cleric it will be equal at the start and taper off but pretty equal.


no it isn't... 13 wis life cleric casts cure wounds at lvl 1. heals for 1d8+4. 20 int artificer casts curewounds at lvl 1. 1d8+5.
but this is mostly pednatic as you agreed with the overall point regardless.



Totally understandable I was mainly saying you wouldn't waste concentration on a 1st level spell at higher levels and at lower levels it is still beaten out by Faerie fire, and fog cloud.

it all depends. if you're in tight quarters then both fog cloud and faerie fire can easily become a detriment (so like...if you're in a dungeon :P). however, in those same tight quarters shield of faith (cast on a tank) actually thrives, because its easier to force enemies against the tank rather than your backline.



Yeah I was mainly saying it wasnt a stand out option.


but my point was that you put speak with animals as a solid option, which is just as situational.



I feel this is kinda a non point as sure you dont have to prep them as a wizard but the artificer is getting more spells later on 5 as opposed to the likely 4.

agreed, but you get a larger base of potential spells using cleric. i won't claim that its a wash, i think it more depends on build.



But in all you have made a good point and it certainly isn't an obvious decision if you have the wisdom to spare. I feel the artificer is less an obvious pick over cleric and more an obvious pick over level 20 wizard. The spellcasting progress remain the same and nobody cares about the wizard capstone.
right, this is the only point im trying to make. im not trying to claim that cleric is *always* going to be better than artificer, or that it can do the same things that artificer can for a wizard. only that its a fully competitive option.

and i def agree that if you're going full munchkin there's no reason not to MC into one or the other.
in fact, i'd even argue that the ASI at 19 isn't even worth it and you're better off MCing into both, best of both worlds. although thats less obvious, i just can't think wht you mihgt be wanting to pick up at lvl 19 that would be worth it. i'd imagien you're already at 20 int and have warcaster+resiliant (con) so....i mean, there are options but like, a bonus to your con? you get more effective HP from being able to cast healing spells on yourself. a higher dex for more AC? you already have at-will shield and an actual shield (and possibly medium/heavy armor)...**** off with your AC already

[Teaguethebean]

but my point was that you put speak with animals as a solid option, which is just as situational.
I think that was someone else



and i def agree that if you're going full munchkin there's no reason not to MC into one or the other.
in fact, i'd even argue that the ASI at 19 isn't even worth it and you're better off MCing into both, best of both worlds. although thats less obvious, i just can't think wht you mihgt be wanting to pick up at lvl 19 that would be worth it. i'd imagien you're already at 20 int and have warcaster+resiliant (con) so....i mean, there are options but like, a bonus to your con? you get more effective HP from being able to cast healing spells on yourself. a higher dex for more AC? you already have at-will shield and an actual shield (and possibly medium/heavy armor)...**** off with your AC already
It seems we are kinda in agreement that both are good but probably just have different things we want out of a character in all I personally prefer the art for flavor and a strong sanctuary but I can see the early game power that the cleric 1 brings.

[kazaryu]

I think that was someone else

Whoops, fair point



It seems we are kinda in agreement that both are good but probably just have different things we want out of a character in all I personally prefer the art for flavor and a strong sanctuary but I can see the early game power that the cleric 1 brings.
Eh, different strokes, ya know

[ravenkith]

I'm well aware what level they get infusions and their subclass, that's why I said if you go further (which you even bolded in your quote).

You clearly have a very narrow playstyle definition for a Wizard, delaying 3rd level slots I'd hardly the ultimate sin (if there even is one) and sometimes the player WANTS to be in melee, why? Because they find it fun and it fits the concept. I'd also assume that if someone did go 3 deep for BattleSmith then they probably want to be melee (with Bladesinger etc.).

I'd also argue you're not better off dumping Dex for Str at all just to get Heavy Armour without a speed penalty. Str is damn near useless as a standalone stat outside of HA and great weapons. Dex? One of the most common saves, initiative bonus and several skills tied to it (as well as the majority of AC calculations, good luck with a negative Dex when you're caught out if armour). Overall you mostly replied to the tail end of my post, that if you choose to go beyond the one level dip it's all synergistic gravy, which I stand by. Everyone benefits from Infusions and there's something in each subclass for various play styles. It seems like you don't actually have any objections to the main point of my post, that one level dip in Artificer makes more sense unless you want something specific from a domain.

I'm aware the rest of your post was addressing another user but I'll also cover it, for the record you're also becoming rather abrasive but this might just be something you feel strongly about.

I think Warding Dwarf was more in response to you choosing a flying variant rather than hypocrisy, though you're also assuming a DMG subclass intended mainly for NPCs as available to players.

If you are talking about enemies within 5ft of each other I have to ask if you'd not be better of just using aoe or control spells. The Twinned ability is nice, but I do think you're overselling it, all it takes is necrotic resistance/immunity to make it the sub par choice. It's not really the equivalent of a 6th level spell. You're equating doing 4d8 to two people (potentially) as the same as doing 8d8 to one target, that's apples and oranges. In that scenario why aren't you considering a classic fireball doing 16d6 then? Or even more if there's more enemies? To be honest I'm not entirely sure why you chose Death out of all the domains, let alone arguing the value of cantrips at tier 4 play when slots are still available.

As for point 4, if you counter or strip away spells from any Wizard you're left with little to nothing, you're not arguing against the specific build. The squishy Wizard part is also pretty easily mitigated between higher than average Con (the suggestion WAS a Dwarf), Tough feat, to some degree abjurers ward. You're of the opinion Wizards should always be in the back, okay, that's one way to play not the only 'right' way to do so. It's worth remembering as well, melee happens, you can't always stay out if reach. If the DM wants to hit you with a claw sometimes to challenge the party, you will get hit with a claw. Whether that be an ambush or just an enemy from the mob deciding you know that twinning cantrip guy is getting annoying and rushing you.

You presumably made this thread for people to try and convince or explain to you the value of the Artificer dip over the Cleric dip. If that assumption is wrong then I apologise, but you'd also be better off not making a thread about it.

First off: Apologies if I'm offending your delicate sensibilities, everyone. It's not my intention.

Second: the ultimate sin, as a wizard, is delaying spell progression. When I say that you are delaying access to 3rd level spells, what I am actually pointing to is the fact by taking three levels of artificer you are getting every spell level access point pushed back...I use the example of third level spells to highlight the gap you are creating, which is a three level gap minimum if you want to dip battlesmith.

While you get slots (ata reduced rate, thanks to artificer's 1/2 progression), you DON'T get spells known.

This means you won't get 3rd level spells until 8th level, yes, but it ALSO pushes 4th level spells to 10th, 5th level spells to 12th, etc, etc. Not having access to those higher level spells at the same time (or as close to as possible) as a straight wizard can REALLY hurt the ability of the wizard to be useful, especially with 3rd-5th level spells which are typically significantly more powerful that 1st-2nd, even if you upcast the 1st and 2nd level spells, regardless of whether we are talking about damage dealing or crowd control. This is pretty common knowledge, and frankly I am left wondering if you are being deliberately combative by claiming to fail to understand this point.

Third, the reason I made the thread was to start a conversation on the merits of the artificer as a dip vs the merits of a dip in the cleric class, as the title suggests, and to have a genuine debate about which is actually more valuable, with an eye to hashing out whether or not artificer is the be all and end all single level dip for wizard as warlock is for Sorceror, as many seem to have been claiming since the class came out.

Essentially this thread is an attempt to dissect the hype around the new class and see if it stands up to what is being said, with my personal hypothesis being that it doesn't, and that, in many circumstances, perhaps in MOST circumstances, you'd be better off going cleric for the long and short term term benefits that class offers than the purely short term benefits offered by a dip in well, ANY of the artificer options.

Fourth: With regard to the choice of the death domain, and the emphasis on cleric's unique contribution - the effective FREE TWIN SPELL on the necromancy cantrips, and comparing it to the maximum damage output of a 6th level spell, let me explain:

The point here was to illustrate how a single level dip in a cleric class was able to give you something that could very well be relevant and applicable in high-tier play, in contrast to the Artificer's 1st level. Keep in mind that any wizard with a single-level dip is still going to be 19 levels of wizard: they have the same spell slots, the same spells available, in most cases, and the same level of class features and available ASIs.

Debating what each wizard does with their higher level spell slots is kinda a waste of time, because they are (mostly) equally as capable. I could play an abjurer class wizard as easily as the divination wizard I built. As to the specific example of the mark of warding dwarf, that's a RACIAL consideration, not a class one: I could easily go mark of warding dwarf and abjurer wizard and it would give me the same ability to get hit in melee if I wanted to: Artificer vs Cleric simply does not affect that particular mechanic. I still believe that tiefling flight is more advantageous, especially as the winged tiefling ability can't be dispelled, so it is inherently better than one that CAN be, and it also never uses a spell slot, so again, better, but I'm not really here to debate races and racial gimmicks, so let's move on.

What changes is what the dip brings to the table. With the artificer and the death cleric, you get the same armor proficiencies and the same hit dice, so that aspect of things is a wash.

The artificer then brings the artificer spell list, con proficiency, a couple of tool proficiencies and magical tinkering (a ribbon ability) to the table.

The cleric, on the other hand, brings the cleric spell list, wisdom proficiency, and their domain to the table.

I chose the death domain. Be aware that this is not the most powerful/useful of domains, but it did give something that was easily compared to the Artificer, because it was one of the few useful domains that DID NOT GIVE HEAVY ARMOR PROFICIENCY (This choice is also where I decided to take the feral variant tiefling, since, if I was going to be limiting myself to medium armor ANYWAY....).

For death cleric, the domain gives martial weapons, three cleric cantrips, False life (auto known), Ray of Sickness (auto known), and the reaper ability, which gives one free necromancy cantrip and free twinning of ALL necromancy cantrips at all times (when two targets are in range and within 5ft of one another). That's a LOT.

In contrast, an artificer brings 2 cantrips, the tool proficiencies, and again, magical tinkering.

Now, if you are planning on being in melee as an artificer at level 1, even using the mark of warding dwarf, this becomes a problem.

With your con save, you can theoretically cast a spell and keep concentration, and be running around smacking people with a simple weapon, but because you don't have a high strength, you're probably going to want to use a finesse weapon, which pretty much limits you to a dagger. That's a d4 damage. You'll probably use your 1st level spells to cast faerie fire, so people get advantage on the critters you happen to catch with a failed dex save all two times a day, but you might ALSO be saving those spells for armor of agathys so that you can have "more HP than the fighter" (Fighter has 10+ CON, wiz has 8+CON +5 with armor of agathys for MAYBE, 3 extra HP, LOL) and survive in melee. You absolutely will have times at low levels where you can't fit in a rest, please remember.

Alternatively, you are going to be using a light crossbow which is a d8, but if you're in melee, you're getting disadvantage every time you shoot someone (unless they are affected by Faerie fire, in which case that effective - 5 goes away, I guess), and brings with it loading and casting issues.

My conclusion: If you aren't in melee, you're never going to get full benefit from AOA, so it's a waste of a slot. If you are in melee, you'll never deal meaningful damage with your weapons, so it's a waste of an action, or else you'll have to use cantrip/spells.

So on to the cantrips. As an artificer, it's Firebolt. You only get two cantrips, and even though fire is the MOST resisted element in the game, the damage dice and the range are the best available to you. Of course that's a range spell attack, so the whole disad in melee thing applies again. As stupid as it sounds, at this point you are now pretty much locked into shocking grasp as your other cantrip, because you'll definitely want a melee spell attack if you are intending to deliberately put yourself in melee. Unfortunately, Shocking Grasp is lightning damage, which is either the 2nd most or 3rd most resisted damage type (I can't recall offhand).

Now compare that to the death cleric at level one. With martial weapons available, you just don't give a **** about any of the drama above. You want to cast AOA and melee? Go right ahead, the best finesse weapons in the game are there for you to play with. You want to hang back and shoot a bow? You can do that without any loading issues, meaning you can hold a bow in one hand and cast with the other. Range? Melee? Who cares? Plus, you can actually afford to take guidance, thaumaturgy (gives similar flavor nods as tinkering) and light as your cantrips and get spare the dying for free. Note that if you DON'T go the AOA mark of warding route, you can cast False life instead should you need THP, giving you 5-8 THP for an hour, which gives you 8+ CON + 5-8 HP for well, probably MORE base HP than the fighter or the AOA guy. (Remember, you won't get the ward until character level 3).

At 2nd level? Well, this is where the rubber hits the road. Both the artificer and the cleric base now get their 3 wizard cantrips, their wizard spells, and their extra HP, but SOMETHING is different between the two.

The Cleric base now gets the two necromancy cantrips, Toll the Dead and Chill Touch from the wizard spell list. One is a ranged spell attack, the other is a ranged spell save, meaning one can be used at a distance, while the other can be used in melee without any penalties. The reaper ability gives BOTH automatic twinning whenever it becomes applicable.

Chill Touch has 120 range, making it comparable to the Firebolt. Chill Touch only has a d8 damage, while Firebolt has a d10, BUT Chill Touch has a two riders on the spell: One which prevents healing until the start of the casters next turn, and another that ALSO gives undead disadvantage to attack you. The second is pretty situational, but the first can be super useful. Plus it's necrotic damage, which is one of the least resisted types of damage, IIRC.

Now you add in the twinning function, and you're doing up to 2d8 damage (admittedly split between two targets), and preventing healing on both. This is at 2nd level! You usually don't get 2d8 damage out a cantrip until 5th level! YOU CAN DO THIS ALL DAY!

Then there is Toll the Dead. It only has a 60 ft range, but it targets wisdom saves, deals 1d8 damage to uninjured creatures and 1d12 to injured creatures, and again, deals necrotic damage as opposed to fire or lightning. Twinning this for free every time you cast it is pretty nuts at 2nd level.

Note that both wizards can now acquire familiars - which can give you or your allies advantage on attack rolls. Now you can do what Faerie fire let the artificer do (give advantage), if in a more limited fashion (shrug), and without using your concentration.

Now, let's not just compare this the the artificer base wizard. Let's look at what a fighter is doing at level 2: typically meleeing against AC for 1d8 + STR damage if sword and boarding or 2d6+ STR damage if GWing it. You, on the other hand, can choose to target AC OR will saves and can reach out and touch someone up to 120ft away while the fighter has to either switch to a dex weapon or chase an MFer down.

3rd level? This is where your arcane tradition comes in to play. If you go the mark of warding dwarf and get your arcane ward running, you're going to be pretty durable, HP wise. But you aren't really any safer from spells that don't attack HP, which is where the Divination expert came in. I liked the utility and flexibility of the Portent because it could be used to make yourself better at skills or saves, and others worse at skills or saves, which, if you are playing a batman/control wizard, often means YOU WIN.

That aside, comparing apples to apples, the mark of warding dwarf at this point has gotten ALL HE WILL EVER GET out of artificer. Faerie Fire, as the BEST thing you got out of artificer other than CON save proficiency, at 4th level and beyond, will rapidly become an afterthought as you have better things to use your concentration on. Meanwhile, the Death cleric's reaper ability is the gift that keeps on giving as the cantrips scale up.

On a seperate note, there are so many other sources of THP, personally I find that the armor of agathys/abjurer ward shtick is just limiting, especially as it is so easy to get rid of or side step thanks to dispelling/counterspelling or just casting something that ignores hit points altogether...it's really very overrated, IMO.

[Merudo]

Faerie Fire, as the BEST thing you got out of artificer other than CON save proficiency, at 4th level and beyond, will rapidly become an afterthought as you have better things to use your concentration on. Meanwhile, the Death cleric's reaper ability is the gift that keeps on giving as the cantrips scale up.


I disagree. At higher levels, the Sanctuary spell is likely to be of higher value.

[Dork_Forge]

First off: Apologies if I'm offending your delicate sensibilities, everyone. It's not my intention.

Second: the ultimate sin, as a wizard, is delaying spell progression. When I say that you are delaying access to 3rd level spells, what I am actually pointing to is the fact by taking three levels of artificer you are getting every spell level access point pushed back...I use the example of third level spells to highlight the gap you are creating, which is a three level gap minimum if you want to dip battlesmith.

While you get slots (ata reduced rate, thanks to artificer's 1/2 progression), you DON'T get spells known.

This means you won't get 3rd level spells until 8th level, yes, but it ALSO pushes 4th level spells to 10th, 5th level spells to 12th, etc, etc. Not having access to those higher level spells at the same time (or as close to as possible) as a straight wizard can REALLY hurt the ability of the wizard to be useful, especially with 3rd-5th level spells which are typically significantly more powerful that 1st-2nd, even if you upcast the 1st and 2nd level spells, regardless of whether we are talking about damage dealing or crowd control. This is pretty common knowledge, and frankly I am left wondering if you are being deliberately combative by claiming to fail to understand this point.

Third, the reason I made the thread was to start a conversation on the merits of the artificer as a dip vs the merits of a dip in the cleric class, as the title suggests, and to have a genuine debate about which is actually more valuable, with an eye to hashing out whether or not artificer is the be all and end all single level dip for wizard as warlock is for Sorceror, as many seem to have been claiming since the class came out.

Essentially this thread is an attempt to dissect the hype around the new class and see if it stands up to what is being said, with my personal hypothesis being that it doesn't, and that, in many circumstances, perhaps in MOST circumstances, you'd be better off going cleric for the long and short term term benefits that class offers than the purely short term benefits offered by a dip in well, ANY of the artificer options.

Fourth: With regard to the choice of the death domain, and the emphasis on cleric's unique contribution - the effective FREE TWIN SPELL on the necromancy cantrips, and comparing it to the maximum damage output of a 6th level spell, let me explain:

The point here was to illustrate how a single level dip in a cleric class was able to give you something that could very well be relevant and applicable in high-tier play, in contrast to the Artificer's 1st level. Keep in mind that any wizard with a single-level dip is still going to be 19 levels of wizard: they have the same spell slots, the same spells available, in most cases, and the same level of class features and available ASIs.

Debating what each wizard does with their higher level spell slots is kinda a waste of time, because they are (mostly) equally as capable. I could play an abjurer class wizard as easily as the divination wizard I built. As to the specific example of the mark of warding dwarf, that's a RACIAL consideration, not a class one: I could easily go mark of warding dwarf and abjurer wizard and it would give me the same ability to get hit in melee if I wanted to: Artificer vs Cleric simply does not affect that particular mechanic. I still believe that tiefling flight is more advantageous, especially as the winged tiefling ability can't be dispelled, so it is inherently better than one that CAN be, and it also never uses a spell slot, so again, better, but I'm not really here to debate races and racial gimmicks, so let's move on.

What changes is what the dip brings to the table. With the artificer and the death cleric, you get the same armor proficiencies and the same hit dice, so that aspect of things is a wash.

The artificer then brings the artificer spell list, con proficiency, a couple of tool proficiencies and magical tinkering (a ribbon ability) to the table.

The cleric, on the other hand, brings the cleric spell list, wisdom proficiency, and their domain to the table.

I chose the death domain. Be aware that this is not the most powerful/useful of domains, but it did give something that was easily compared to the Artificer, because it was one of the few useful domains that DID NOT GIVE HEAVY ARMOR PROFICIENCY (This choice is also where I decided to take the feral variant tiefling, since, if I was going to be limiting myself to medium armor ANYWAY....).

For death cleric, the domain gives martial weapons, three cleric cantrips, False life (auto known), Ray of Sickness (auto known), and the reaper ability, which gives one free necromancy cantrip and free twinning of ALL necromancy cantrips at all times (when two targets are in range and within 5ft of one another). That's a LOT.

In contrast, an artificer brings 2 cantrips, the tool proficiencies, and again, magical tinkering.

Now, if you are planning on being in melee as an artificer at level 1, even using the mark of warding dwarf, this becomes a problem.

With your con save, you can theoretically cast a spell and keep concentration, and be running around smacking people with a simple weapon, but because you don't have a high strength, you're probably going to want to use a finesse weapon, which pretty much limits you to a dagger. That's a d4 damage. You'll probably use your 1st level spells to cast faerie fire, so people get advantage on the critters you happen to catch with a failed dex save all two times a day, but you might ALSO be saving those spells for armor of agathys so that you can have "more HP than the fighter" (Fighter has 10+ CON, wiz has 8+CON +5 with armor of agathys for MAYBE, 3 extra HP, LOL) and survive in melee. You absolutely will have times at low levels where you can't fit in a rest, please remember.

Alternatively, you are going to be using a light crossbow which is a d8, but if you're in melee, you're getting disadvantage every time you shoot someone (unless they are affected by Faerie fire, in which case that effective - 5 goes away, I guess), and brings with it loading and casting issues.

My conclusion: If you aren't in melee, you're never going to get full benefit from AOA, so it's a waste of a slot. If you are in melee, you'll never deal meaningful damage with your weapons, so it's a waste of an action, or else you'll have to use cantrip/spells.

So on to the cantrips. As an artificer, it's Firebolt. You only get two cantrips, and even though fire is the MOST resisted element in the game, the damage dice and the range are the best available to you. Of course that's a range spell attack, so the whole disad in melee thing applies again. As stupid as it sounds, at this point you are now pretty much locked into shocking grasp as your other cantrip, because you'll definitely want a melee spell attack if you are intending to deliberately put yourself in melee. Unfortunately, Shocking Grasp is lightning damage, which is either the 2nd most or 3rd most resisted damage type (I can't recall offhand).

Now compare that to the death cleric at level one. With martial weapons available, you just don't give a **** about any of the drama above. You want to cast AOA and melee? Go right ahead, the best finesse weapons in the game are there for you to play with. You want to hang back and shoot a bow? You can do that without any loading issues, meaning you can hold a bow in one hand and cast with the other. Range? Melee? Who cares? Plus, you can actually afford to take guidance, thaumaturgy (gives similar flavor nods as tinkering) and light as your cantrips and get spare the dying for free. Note that if you DON'T go the AOA mark of warding route, you can cast False life instead should you need THP, giving you 5-8 THP for an hour, which gives you 8+ CON + 5-8 HP for well, probably MORE base HP than the fighter or the AOA guy. (Remember, you won't get the ward until character level 3).

At 2nd level? Well, this is where the rubber hits the road. Both the artificer and the cleric base now get their 3 wizard cantrips, their wizard spells, and their extra HP, but SOMETHING is different between the two.

The Cleric base now gets the two necromancy cantrips, Toll the Dead and Chill Touch from the wizard spell list. One is a ranged spell attack, the other is a ranged spell save, meaning one can be used at a distance, while the other can be used in melee without any penalties. The reaper ability gives BOTH automatic twinning whenever it becomes applicable.

Chill Touch has 120 range, making it comparable to the Firebolt. Chill Touch only has a d8 damage, while Firebolt has a d10, BUT Chill Touch has a two riders on the spell: One which prevents healing until the start of the casters next turn, and another that ALSO gives undead disadvantage to attack you. The second is pretty situational, but the first can be super useful. Plus it's necrotic damage, which is one of the least resisted types of damage, IIRC.

Now you add in the twinning function, and you're doing up to 2d8 damage (admittedly split between two targets), and preventing healing on both. This is at 2nd level! You usually don't get 2d8 damage out a cantrip until 5th level! YOU CAN DO THIS ALL DAY!

Then there is Toll the Dead. It only has a 60 ft range, but it targets wisdom saves, deals 1d8 damage to uninjured creatures and 1d12 to injured creatures, and again, deals necrotic damage as opposed to fire or lightning. Twinning this for free every time you cast it is pretty nuts at 2nd level.

Note that both wizards can now acquire familiars - which can give you or your allies advantage on attack rolls. Now you can do what Faerie fire let the artificer do (give advantage), if in a more limited fashion (shrug), and without using your concentration.

Now, let's not just compare this the the artificer base wizard. Let's look at what a fighter is doing at level 2: typically meleeing against AC for 1d8 + STR damage if sword and boarding or 2d6+ STR damage if GWing it. You, on the other hand, can choose to target AC OR will saves and can reach out and touch someone up to 120ft away while the fighter has to either switch to a dex weapon or chase an MFer down.

3rd level? This is where your arcane tradition comes in to play. If you go the mark of warding dwarf and get your arcane ward running, you're going to be pretty durable, HP wise. But you aren't really any safer from spells that don't attack HP, which is where the Divination expert came in. I liked the utility and flexibility of the Portent because it could be used to make yourself better at skills or saves, and others worse at skills or saves, which, if you are playing a batman/control wizard, often means YOU WIN.

That aside, comparing apples to apples, the mark of warding dwarf at this point has gotten ALL HE WILL EVER GET out of artificer. Faerie Fire, as the BEST thing you got out of artificer other than CON save proficiency, at 4th level and beyond, will rapidly become an afterthought as you have better things to use your concentration on. Meanwhile, the Death cleric's reaper ability is the gift that keeps on giving as the cantrips scale up.

On a seperate note, there are so many other sources of THP, personally I find that the armor of agathys/abjurer ward shtick is just limiting, especially as it is so easy to get rid of or side step thanks to dispelling/counterspelling or just casting something that ignores hit points altogether...it's really very overrated, IMO.

Hoo boy was this a read, I'm stood in line for 2 hours for a ride, so let's do this.

I'm not going to address any racial differences or school differences. It is entirely irrelevant to what you wanted to debate.

Firstly delaying spell progression is a big thing, it is irrelevant for comparing the one level dips and if you are going 3 deep for BattleSmith then you're going to be melee based and not really care that much, why? Because it's what you want to play, you're not min maxing a Wizard as a primary caster. I'm not being combative and I fully understand the issue, I never claimed 3 levels for anything really other than blasting and melee which it is still good for.

Weapon arguments, largely irrelevant, the difference between die size is small at best, if you HAVE to use weapons that you did not intend to then you have worse considerations. I don't know why you think there's any issues with the loading property, it makes no difference to casting Vs a longbow. Also since the character is less MAD you can afford a higher Dex if you want.

The Cleric list that's being brought to the table is keyed in Wisdom. Your Cleric casting won't get better unless you spend an ASI pumping it, which you shouldn't be. The Artificer spell casting will improve and thus stay more relevant. The cross class and prepared nature of the list also makes it incredibly versatile, arguably moreso than just the Cleric list (with a low stat).

This means that the twin ability you're so fond of can only really come only at second level if you value it being worth a damn and the free necormancy cantrip you get (unless it's spare the dying) is going to age out of usefulness very quickly. Then two out of three Wizard cantrips are tied up with Chill Touch and Toll the Dead, meaning if you want to mix your damage types you're gutting your versatility.

Thaumaturgy and Magical Tinkering are not really comparable, they do entirely different things. One is a cantrip, the other creates permanent duration items (unless you die or dismiss them) that keys off your Intelligence. I also feel like you're undervaluing the tools, thieves tools is arguably the most useful and most used toolset in the game.

It's comparable to firebolt in range, you valued die size when it came to weapons, it seems odd to not value it when it comes to your main schtick. Both riders of Chill Touch are situational, how often is an enemy that isn't a Troll healing during a combat that matters? If it's a Troll there's more direct ways to stop the healing whilst dealing more damage, if it isn't you can spend your action casting a spell instead to do more damage (or just use Chill Touch, it isn't exclusive to your combo and a reasonable pick for any Wizard).

You compared to a Fighter for... No reason but to make your argument look good. Nothing is as apples and oranges as the Fighter vs the Wizard and the statement you made about AC or saves and range is applicable to a level one Wizard as well as an Art/Wiz. The comparison does nothing to highlight dipping on a Wizard.

I'm not going to address most of the Warding Dwarf thing as it's not really relevant, but I do strongly contest the all they'll ever get out if Artificer comment. Unless you pick up more necromancy cantrips (they're not exactly plentiful) then you literally got all you are going to get out of Cleric at 2nd character level. As you advance you gain nothing but your spells using your modifier will begin to age badly. The Artificer actually improves as the Wizard pumps his primary stat though, more Artificer spells known, more tinkering items and your spells improve with your modifier. For example, Cure Wounds will likely stick at 1d8+2 for the C/W but start at +3 for the Artificer and likely go the distance to +5.

4th level and up as you get better things to concentrate on that Con proficiency doesn't become an after thought, it becomes more valuable. Isn't one of the most commonly suggested feats for a Wizard here Res:Con?

Temp hp wise yeah there's plenty of sources of temp hp, but if you're choosing AoA whilst having those other sources, then temp hp isn't your only priority/concern. You likely want the damage.

You could have picked better domains imo to compare this too, but no matter what you choose i don't think it really tops the Artificer(including the stat synergy) unless you want something specific (like heavy armor).

[Merudo]

What changes is what the dip brings to the table. With the artificer and the death cleric, you get the same armor proficiencies and the same hit dice, so that aspect of things is a wash.

The artificer then brings the artificer spell list, con proficiency, a couple of tool proficiencies and magical tinkering (a ribbon ability) to the table.

The cleric, on the other hand, brings the cleric spell list, wisdom proficiency, and their domain to the table.


You forgot to mention that you need to qualify for the Cleric multiclass. Getting that Wisdom to 13 is not without cost; you'll likely have reduced Int, Con or Dex to afford it.

[BloodBrandy]

You forgot to mention that you need to qualify for the Cleric multiclass. Getting that Wisdom to 13 is not without cost; you'll have to have reduced Int, Con or Dex to afford it.

Also you don't get a Con proficiency, the saving throw proficiencies don't come with a multiclass.

Also, at level 1, the Domain can be worthwhile or worth nothing more than 2 spells for the usual Wizard

[Dork_Forge]

Also you don't get a Con proficiency, the saving throw proficiencies don't come with a multiclass.

Also, at level 1, the Domain can be worthwhile or worth nothing more than 2 spells for the usual Wizard

The assumption has been level 1 dip then going Wizard regarding the saves.

Otherwise I agree, the Domain is heavily case by case dependent.

[Expected]

Unless you are building a Nuclear Wizard or dipping for armor proficiency, pure Wizard is ideal to prevent slowing spell progression.

[Teaguethebean]

Unless you are building a Nuclear Wizard or dipping for armor proficiency, pure Wizard is ideal to prevent slowing spell progression.

I feel a level in spell progression is ok to give up for 4 ac, Constitution saves, cure wounds, and Sanctuary.

[Expected]

I feel a level in spell progression is ok to give up for 4 ac, Constitution saves, cure wounds, and Sanctuary.
Hence why I mentioned "[Unless] . . ." Again, it is just my opinion. Cure Wounds is a horrible use of your action/bonus action compared to Aura of Healing/Healing Word. Wis saves are also important which Wizard provides. Either way, you'll need Resilient: Con or Wis. For non-optimized builds, x amount of AC gained from proficiency is worth it. Sanctuary is only good for Spirit Guardians builds that ignore the recent errata stating it ends when dealing any damage. Otherwise, you are essentially skipping your turn.

And I should have clarified that I was referring to optimized Wizard builds (e.g. Hobgoblins have NO need to multiclass and can start with an odd, high Con and take Moderately Armored).

[ravenkith]

Hoo boy was this a read, I'm stood in line for 2 hours for a ride, so let's do this.

Based on your responses, it was fairly obvious that you were distracted when typing, but it's nice that you warn us ahead of time.


I'm not going to address any racial differences or school differences. It is entirely irrelevant to what you wanted to debate.

Yeah, thanks, that was kind of a big point I was trying to make make about the abjurer/mark of warding thing making no difference.


Firstly delaying spell progression is a big thing, it is irrelevant for comparing the one level dips and if you are going 3 deep for BattleSmith then you're going to be melee based and not really care that much, why? Because it's what you want to play, you're not min maxing a Wizard as a primary caster. I'm not being combative and I fully understand the issue, I never claimed 3 levels for anything really other than blasting and melee which it is still good for.

Yes, spell progression does become relatively irrelevant when comparing 1 level dips - however you made an argument for taking artificer based on the fact that it was synergistic when taking multiple levels in the class, which is what brought me to bring up the issues of spell progression.

The truth is, if you are taking three levels in artificer, you are very badly hurting your ability to function as a wizard at that point, and it rapidly becomes a situation where you are more likely to take levels of wizard to enhance artificer (either artillerist or battlesmith) post 10th or 15th level or whatever breakpoint you pick as opposed to using artificer to enhance wizard, mostly because of the way the class is constructed. You're probably much more likely to be looking to add 2+ levels of wizard to your artificer build than 3+ levels of artificer to your wizard, IMO.

This is especially true when it comes to people who want to get into melee, given the d8 artificer HD and the infusions. If spell progression doesn't matter to you, that 1/2 progression just isn't gonna phase ya much at all.

If you are taking more levels of wizard than you are of artificer, it had better be because spell progression matters to you, as that's what the wizard chassis DOES.


Weapon arguments, largely irrelevant, the difference between die size is small at best, if you HAVE to use weapons that you did not intend to then you have worse considerations. I don't know why you think there's any issues with the loading property, it makes no difference to casting Vs a longbow. Also since the character is less MAD you can afford a higher Dex if you want.


It's comparable to firebolt in range, you valued die size when it came to weapons, it seems odd to not value it when it comes to your main schtick. Both riders of Chill Touch are situational, how often is an enemy that isn't a Troll healing during a combat that matters? If it's a Troll there's more direct ways to stop the healing whilst dealing more damage, if it isn't you can spend your action casting a spell instead to do more damage (or just use Chill Touch, it isn't exclusive to your combo and a reasonable pick for any Wizard).


You compared to a Fighter for... No reason but to make your argument look good. Nothing is as apples and oranges as the Fighter vs the Wizard and the statement you made about AC or saves and range is applicable to a level one Wizard as well as an Art/Wiz. The comparison does nothing to highlight dipping on a Wizard.

These three are kinda related.

I can tell you have a lax DM. Juggling items can become a problem sometimes, let's leave it at that. If your DM doesn't care, it's never going to make sense to you, so let's not argue about it.

On the other hand, as a first level character especially and at low levels on the whole, the difference between tossing a d8+dex vs a d4+dex is pretty significant when it comes to your normal damage threshold and your crit damage threshold. The ability to switch between damage types (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) can also sometimes be relevant. You probably shouldn't be so dismissive of it. If for no other reason than, should you find yourself in an anti-magic area, you are not COMPLETELY useless, having access to martial weaponry can be a good idea (shrug).

Let's be honest, here: The big weakness of casters at lower levels, aside from their general squishyness, is their lack of stamina when it comes to combat effectiveness. This is because you get an extremely limited number of spell slots, especially at levels 1-5. Hell, even at later levels, your effectiveness is limited by how often you can cast meaningful spells. This is somewhat mitigated by the availability of cantrips, but those have their issues,as others have pointed out.

Cantrips, under normal circumstances, just aren't very effective uses of an action in most cases, especially at levels 1-4, because of the fact that you get NO MODIFIER added to their single dice of damage. Strictly speaking, under normal circumstances, if you have any kind of modifier, a 1d8+mod is better than a flat d8 roll, or even a d10 roll, because of the FLOOR of the roll - you are guaranteed a higher minimum damage.

With the cantrips as you have discussed above, you get firebolt, which is a d10, with a 120 ft range attack VS ac, and you think you're good, but here's the rub: statistically, every time you roll that d10, you are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 10. You have a 10% chance of each number on that dice coming up.

Between the levels of 1 and 4, Using a longbow and using a firebolt is the difference between a damage outcome range of 3-10 or 1-10. The longbow is better, every time, even though the max damage on the die alone is lower.

The math changes when you get the twinning and chill touch into the picture, however. If you have two targets standing next to one another, your choice is between 3-10 (bow) vs one target or 1-8 vs two targets, meaning your damage outcome range is now 2-16.

It's even better with injured targets, toll the dead and twinning, because your damage outcome range is now 2-24.

I know, you are now saying "Why wouldn't you just cast your 1st level or higher spells? Why worry about stupid cantrips at all?"

You may have heard people say that D&D is a resource management game? Well, Actions, HP, Spell slots, and recovery dice are some of the resources you are managing. Everything you choose to do as a character has something called an opportunity cost - by doing a certain thing with a resource, you are denying yourself the ability to do something else with that resource.

Most smart DMs will structure their adventuring day with some random encounters, and maybe a couple of planned combats to suck away resources (that includes high level spell slots, remember), in order to make later combats (usually boss fights) more challenging. This is normal. It happens all the time. It's even expected.

Smart players will notice this trend and plan appropriately to mitigate these expenditures so that you KEEP your high level spell slots for when they are most needed. Fail to do so at your peril.

Note: The reason for comparison to fighter is to show a baseline for what a wizard has to measure up to to be considered effective once he runs out of spells. Keep in mind that your baseline fighter speccing in damage dealing is likely going to be tossing 2d6+4 (a two handed sword) for most of levels 1-4 and then gets 2d6+4 twice for 4d6+8 at fifth level (after he gets his second attack), without using resources (he may well have GWM after 4th level, he may not). Without GWM, your fighter has a damage range for a turn, without resources, of 12-32, spread over his two attacks. His advantage is that he can target the same person with both attacks.

5th level, however, is where your damage increases as well: with Chill Touch you're getting 4-32 , with Toll the dead, you can get up to 4-48. For no resources, may I remind you.

Sure, GWM can come in and allow the fighter to take a -5 to hit in order to get a +10 to damage, but against higher AC foes that means he'll miss more often. It's a trade off he has to make, and even then it gets him to 24-52, which is a max damage dealt only 4 points higher than your twinned cantrip.

Math doesn't lie: with your temporary HP (either from AOA or False life), your twinned cantrips, your medium armor and shield, plus your available reaction spells, you are MORE likely than a standard fighter to survive and can be just as capable at dishing out all-day damage without resource cost against the kind of gangs of mooks you will often be facing outside of boss fights.

As to resistances, according to this fine work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage), only 11 creatures in the whole game have resistance, and 11 have immunity, to necrotic damage, as opposed to the 37 with resistance to fire and 40 with immunity to fire. The only less resisted/immune types are force, psychic and radiant, which means the necro cantrips are going to be applicable in MOST situations.


The Cleric list that's being brought to the table is keyed in Wisdom. Your Cleric casting won't get better unless you spend an ASI pumping it, which you shouldn't be. The Artificer spell casting will improve and thus stay more relevant. The cross class and prepared nature of the list also makes it incredibly versatile, arguably moreso than just the Cleric list (with a low stat).


I'm not going to address most of the Warding Dwarf thing as it's not really relevant, but I do strongly contest the all they'll ever get out if Artificer comment. Unless you pick up more necromancy cantrips (they're not exactly plentiful) then you literally got all you are going to get out of Cleric at 2nd character level. As you advance you gain nothing but your spells using your modifier will begin to age badly. The Artificer actually improves as the Wizard pumps his primary stat though, more Artificer spells known, more tinkering items and your spells improve with your modifier. For example, Cure Wounds will likely stick at 1d8+2 for the C/W but start at +3 for the Artificer and likely go the distance to +5.

The above two thoughts are tied together. You do have a valid point here about modifiers, but, as others have pointed out, this is why you generally take cleric spells that DON'T rely on modifiers or saves with your cleric slots, lol.

Guidance, Light and Mending/Thaumaturgy for instance, don't need your modifier for anything. Neither does Bless, if you want to take that. I took cure light wounds, which does use your modifier, because I plan on only ever using it with leftover spell slots at the end of the day to fill up hit points as the party takes a long rest. For me, healing in combat is generally going to be a last ditch action, as I would much more likely be casting a control spell or a damage spell, based on the theory that taking the enemy's ability to harm my party by rendering them unable to take actions effectively or enhancing my party to be able to take out enemies more efficiently is what I am really there to do.


Thaumaturgy and Magical Tinkering are not really comparable, they do entirely different things. One is a cantrip, the other creates permanent duration items (unless you die or dismiss them) that keys off your Intelligence. I also feel like you're undervaluing the tools, thieves tools is arguably the most useful and most used toolset in the game.

Thieves tools are great, no doubt. But are you playing a thief?

Also a kind of related note: I think Thaumaturgy and Magical tinkering are BOTH what are often called ribbon abilities: they add FLAVOR to your character, but offer NO real mechanical advantage.

Are the items made by magical tinkering fun and flavorful? Sure? Are they actually going to help you at all? Probably not, or, if they do, it will be SUPER situational. (It might be useful if you could sell the items, but no one is buying the tschotke-level **** you can make with magical tinkering).

So, in my mind, basically the exact same as Thaumaturgy. Fun stuff that's kinda cool but not really and may be helpful in certain situations that will almost never come up.



4th level and up as you get better things to concentrate on that Con proficiency doesn't become an after thought, it becomes more valuable. Isn't one of the most commonly suggested feats for a Wizard here Res:Con?

I said faerie fire becomes obsolete, not con save proficiency. My original build had the character taking con resilience at level 4, gaining an extra H per level and con proficiency as well as will proficiency. This is a better point to gain this proficiency, as at 5th level the bonus becomes +3, whereas prior it was just a +2.


Temp hp wise yeah there's plenty of sources of temp hp, but if you're choosing AoA whilst having those other sources, then temp hp isn't your only priority/concern. You likely want the damage.
This kind of gets back into race debates, but w/e.

AOA only works against meleers, last I checked. You can cast AOA, but theres NO guarantee you'll ever get the damage especially if word gets around about you using the spell all the time - and having chosen a race specifically to get that spell is.....well, let's say I'm not a fan.

I believe there are significantly better options. Winged feral tiefling is definitely better, as are Warforged (even reworked), Yuanti pureblood, Elven accuracy shenanigans - there are more.

We said we weren't going to get into this.


You could have picked better domains imo to compare this too, but no matter what you choose i don't think it really tops the Artificer(including the stat synergy) unless you want something specific (like heavy armor).

The 'stat synergy', again, is what I believe to be a trap. Many people see that artificer is int based and go "its like warlock and sorceror, but for wizards", but frankly, this ain't that. It's not a bad option to 1 lvl dip it, but depending on what you want to do, cleric could be so much better in the long run (shrug).

It's just my opinion, it's not like anyone cares, lol.

[Teaguethebean]

I took cure light wounds, which does use your modifier, because I plan on only ever using it with leftover spell slots at the end of the day to fill up hit points as the party takes a long rest.

What game are you playing?



AOA only works against meleers, last I checked. You can cast AOA, but theres NO guarantee you'll ever get the damage especially if word gets around about you using the spell all the time - and having chosen a race specifically to get that spell is.....well, let's say I'm not a fan.

I believe there are significantly better options. Winged feral tiefling is definitely better, as are Warforged (even reworked), Yuanti pureblood, Elven accuracy shenanigans - there are more.

Are you saying that my race pick is bad because you don't like it? Seems like a kinda weird thing to say while you play a two variant flying race. Additionaly I don't really see warforged being a better package, sure yuan ti pureblood is nice but I was building a frontline fighter, why would I care about Elven accuracy?



The 'stat synergy', again, is what I believe to be a trap. Many people see that artificer is int based and go "its like warlock and sorceror, but for wizards", but frankly, this ain't that. It's not a bad option to 1 lvl dip it, but depending on what you want to do, cleric could be so much better in the long run (shrug).

It's just my opinion, it's not like anyone cares, lol.
I suppose it isn't as strong as a Hexblade yes but I would say it is the strongest option for a wizard out of any other option.

[Dork_Forge]

Based on your responses, it was fairly obvious that you were distracted when typing, but it's nice that you warn us ahead of time.


If that was typos, I apologise, I am rather typo prone regardless the medium I type on unless it's a formal document. If it is in regard to anything else I'd rather you say what seemed like I was distracted.


Yes, spell progression does become relatively irrelevant when comparing 1 level dips - however you made an argument for taking artificer based on the fact that it was synergistic when taking multiple levels in the class, which is what brought me to bring up the issues of spell progression.

The truth is, if you are taking three levels in artificer, you are very badly hurting your ability to function as a wizard at that point, and it rapidly becomes a situation where you are more likely to take levels of wizard to enhance artificer (either artillerist or battlesmith) post 10th or 15th level or whatever breakpoint you pick as opposed to using artificer to enhance wizard, mostly because of the way the class is constructed. You're probably much more likely to be looking to add 2+ levels of wizard to your artificer build than 3+ levels of artificer to your wizard, IMO.

This is especially true when it comes to people who want to get into melee, given the d8 artificer HD and the infusions. If spell progression doesn't matter to you, that 1/2 progression just isn't gonna phase ya much at all.

If you are taking more levels of wizard than you are of artificer, it had better be because spell progression matters to you, as that's what the wizard chassis DOES.

Again, different strokes different folks. Going 3 deep into Battle Smith on a Blade Singer seems like a perfectly viable option, is it the most optimal for a primary casting style? No, but some people want to play gishes and try different things.


These three are kinda related.

I can tell you have a lax DM. Juggling items can become a problem sometimes, let's leave it at that. If your DM doesn't care, it's never going to make sense to you, so let's not argue about it.

On the other hand, as a first level character especially and at low levels on the whole, the difference between tossing a d8+dex vs a d4+dex is pretty significant when it comes to your normal damage threshold and your crit damage threshold. The ability to switch between damage types (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) can also sometimes be relevant. You probably shouldn't be so dismissive of it. If for no other reason than, should you find yourself in an anti-magic area, you are not COMPLETELY useless, having access to martial weaponry can be a good idea (shrug).

Let's be honest, here: The big weakness of casters at lower levels, aside from their general squishyness, is their lack of stamina when it comes to combat effectiveness. This is because you get an extremely limited number of spell slots, especially at levels 1-5. Hell, even at later levels, your effectiveness is limited by how often you can cast meaningful spells. This is somewhat mitigated by the availability of cantrips, but those have their issues,as others have pointed out.

Cantrips, under normal circumstances, just aren't very effective uses of an action in most cases, especially at levels 1-4, because of the fact that you get NO MODIFIER added to their single dice of damage. Strictly speaking, under normal circumstances, if you have any kind of modifier, a 1d8+mod is better than a flat d8 roll, or even a d10 roll, because of the FLOOR of the roll - you are guaranteed a higher minimum damage.

With the cantrips as you have discussed above, you get firebolt, which is a d10, with a 120 ft range attack VS ac, and you think you're good, but here's the rub: statistically, every time you roll that d10, you are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 10. You have a 10% chance of each number on that dice coming up.

Between the levels of 1 and 4, Using a longbow and using a firebolt is the difference between a damage outcome range of 3-10 or 1-10. The longbow is better, every time, even though the max damage on the die alone is lower.

The math changes when you get the twinning and chill touch into the picture, however. If you have two targets standing next to one another, your choice is between 3-10 (bow) vs one target or 1-8 vs two targets, meaning your damage outcome range is now 2-16.

It's even better with injured targets, toll the dead and twinning, because your damage outcome range is now 2-24.

I know, you are now saying "Why wouldn't you just cast your 1st level or higher spells? Why worry about stupid cantrips at all?"

You may have heard people say that D&D is a resource management game? Well, Actions, HP, Spell slots, and recovery dice are some of the resources you are managing. Everything you choose to do as a character has something called an opportunity cost - by doing a certain thing with a resource, you are denying yourself the ability to do something else with that resource.

Most smart DMs will structure their adventuring day with some random encounters, and maybe a couple of planned combats to suck away resources (that includes high level spell slots, remember), in order to make later combats (usually boss fights) more challenging. This is normal. It happens all the time. It's even expected.

Smart players will notice this trend and plan appropriately to mitigate these expenditures so that you KEEP your high level spell slots for when they are most needed. Fail to do so at your peril.

Note: The reason for comparison to fighter is to show a baseline for what a wizard has to measure up to to be considered effective once he runs out of spells. Keep in mind that your baseline fighter speccing in damage dealing is likely going to be tossing 2d6+4 (a two handed sword) for most of levels 1-4 and then gets 2d6+4 twice for 4d6+8 at fifth level (after he gets his second attack), without using resources (he may well have GWM after 4th level, he may not). Without GWM, your fighter has a damage range for a turn, without resources, of 12-32, spread over his two attacks. His advantage is that he can target the same person with both attacks.

5th level, however, is where your damage increases as well: with Chill Touch you're getting 4-32 , with Toll the dead, you can get up to 4-48. For no resources, may I remind you.

Sure, GWM can come in and allow the fighter to take a -5 to hit in order to get a +10 to damage, but against higher AC foes that means he'll miss more often. It's a trade off he has to make, and even then it gets him to 24-52, which is a max damage dealt only 4 points higher than your twinned cantrip.

Math doesn't lie: with your temporary HP (either from AOA or False life), your twinned cantrips, your medium armor and shield, plus your available reaction spells, you are MORE likely than a standard fighter to survive and can be just as capable at dishing out all-day damage without resource cost against the kind of gangs of mooks you will often be facing outside of boss fights.

As to resistances, according to this fine work, only 11 creatures in the whole game have resistance, and 11 have immunity, to necrotic damage, as opposed to the 37 with resistance to fire and 40 with immunity to fire. The only less resisted/immune types are force, psychic and radiant, which means the necro cantrips are going to be applicable in MOST situations.

Please do not make assumptions of my playing, my current DM is not lax and neither am I as a DM. A crossbow functions no differently to a longbow besides being unable to attack more than once a round with it by default. Juggling items can become a problem, this is not one of them, just you misunderstanding the rules apparently.

I made no argument about using cantrips vs using weapons below 5th level. It makes sense for a low level caster to use a light crossbow, I never claimed otherwise and don't understand why you're arguing the point.

I don't think I was ever dismissive about the ability to switch damage types, though I think you're overselling it a bit. Carry a dagger and a light crossbow and be done with it. Ranged and melee weapon options without proficiency with negligible damage difference vs finesse/ranged martial weapons.

There was a lot written about the use of cantrips at low levels, I've already addressed that above, for clarity if it doesn't break character immersion just use a light crossbow until 5th.

Honestly I think the whole Death twinning thing is situational enough that it shouldn't really need to be argued about this much but sure. IF you have two enemies next to each other you can do that, you could also just go Thunderclap them. You also keep adding damage against different targets (assuming you hit them) together for a round total, I don't agree with that but you seem to really like this ability.

In answer to your patronising resource management section, I know what resource management is. I design adventuring days around draining PC resources to add tension, I know what the role of a cantrip is. You kept banding around the number for the final damage of cantrips, at the level this comes into effect you have enough slots (and as a Wizard, can regain enough slots) that if you're reduced to just throwing cantrips in a meaningful encounter then you have done something wrong. If you want to talk about lower levels then it is a more valid point and the damage numbers you use can come down.

The baseline for a Wizard is not a Fighter, it is another full caster. Comparing it to the Fighter is still apples to oranges when other casters also have abilities that can apply to cantrips and provide a more relevant point of comparison.

Math may not lie but that claim is highly suspect. You're comparing a full build against a generic Fighter that doesn't seem to have a subclass. Durability wise unless you're an abjurer there is just no comparison over an adventuring day. By the sounds of it this is meant to be a low level situation and your Wizard seems to be blowing their slots on temp hp and reaction defenses, when the slots are gone you're left a d6 hit die hp pool and no self heal. Meanwhile a Fighter has more hp and gains Second Wind and Action Surge back every short rest (as opposed to once a day Arcane Recovery) and if a BM gets all their SD back too. There are better ways to do all day cantrip damage, this isn't even among the top options.

Well that might be fine work but it's also 5 years old and only accounts for the MM. I did a quick search on D&D Beyond and it seems like there's actually 64 resistant and 14 immune entries (and of course a DM can just slap resistance on anything to make it a challenge, when your schtick is a single damage type you're left more vulnerable than a fire mage).


The above two thoughts are tied together. You do have a valid point here about modifiers, but, as others have pointed out, this is why you generally take cleric spells that DON'T rely on modifiers or saves with your cleric slots, lol.

Guidance, Light and Mending/Thaumaturgy for instance, don't need your modifier for anything. Neither does Bless, if you want to take that. I took cure light wounds, which does use your modifier, because I plan on only ever using it with leftover spell slots at the end of the day to fill up hit points as the party takes a long rest. For me, healing in combat is generally going to be a last ditch action, as I would much more likely be casting a control spell or a damage spell, based on the theory that taking the enemy's ability to harm my party by rendering them unable to take actions effectively or enhancing my party to be able to take out enemies more efficiently is what I am really there to do.

You named 3 cantrips and one actual level 1 spell. You get several level 1 spells, filling them up with spells that don't use your modifier OR concentration (you're a Wizard, you want to tie up your concentration with 1st level Cleric spells that other people would be better off casting?) is not an easy task.

I don't even know what you're talking about with Cure Wounds, why on Earth would you bother healing before a long rest that would restore you to max anyway? You're not a coffeelock. Healing in combat IS a viable thing to do, I abhor yoyo healing but this build in question is not about healing, but since we are taking hardline min maxing, why wouldn't you want the most out of your spells when you do cast them?


Thieves tools are great, no doubt. But are you playing a thief?

Also a kind of related note: I think Thaumaturgy and Magical tinkering are BOTH what are often called ribbon abilities: they add FLAVOR to your character, but offer NO real mechanical advantage.

Are the items made by magical tinkering fun and flavorful? Sure? Are they actually going to help you at all? Probably not, or, if they do, it will be SUPER situational. (It might be useful if you could sell the items, but no one is buying the tschotke-level **** you can make with magical tinkering).

So, in my mind, basically the exact same as Thaumaturgy. Fun stuff that's kinda cool but not really and may be helpful in certain situations that will almost never come up.

Do you need to play a Thief to want to get past locked doors or circumvent traps? There isn't always a Rogue in a party and even when there is a second guy that can use Thieve's Tools is still useful.

They may be the same in your mind, in reality they are not the same. Cantrips and Ribbon abilities shouldn't really be compared against each other, but if you do want to do that then it's basically only 2 cantrips you're getting from Cleric since one is just a ribbon analogue.

If you actually play a character that has said ribbon, you'll find it is fun (and this is a game) and it's essentially another tool in your belt that you can fit into a surprising amount of situations if you want.


I said faerie fire becomes obsolete, not con save proficiency. My original build had the character taking con resilience at level 4, gaining an extra H per level and con proficiency as well as will proficiency. This is a better point to gain this proficiency, as at 5th level the bonus becomes +3, whereas prior it was just a +2

Faerie Fire can be replaced since the Artificer is a fully prepared caster, just take Int keyed Sanctuary instead. So, you are already in need of 14 Dex, decent Con, as high an Int as possible and a minimum of 13 Wis and you delay bumping your primary stat until level 9? Are you really not seeing the comparative benefit of NOT needing that Wis and being able to just bump Int at 5th whilst still having Con prof for concentration spells?


This kind of gets back into race debates, but w/e.

AOA only works against meleers, last I checked. You can cast AOA, but theres NO guarantee you'll ever get the damage especially if word gets around about you using the spell all the time - and having chosen a race specifically to get that spell is.....well, let's say I'm not a fan.

I believe there are significantly better options. Winged feral tiefling is definitely better, as are Warforged (even reworked), Yuanti pureblood, Elven accuracy shenanigans - there are more.

We said we weren't going to get into this.

I was discussing the merits of AoA as a spell and source of temp hp, not the Mark of Warding Dwarf specifically. I'm not sure what kind of games you're playing that knowledge like that about such a relatively small part of your spell repoirtoire is being reported through a command structure. If that's really a concern in your games why isn't the BBEG just telling his minions to not stand within 5ft of each other so twinned necrotic cantrips die after a level or two?

I threw no hat into the race ring and I shan't, I will just highlight that your race options continue to be very DM dependent.


The 'stat synergy', again, is what I believe to be a trap. Many people see that artificer is int based and go "its like warlock and sorceror, but for wizards", but frankly, this ain't that. It's not a bad option to 1 lvl dip it, but depending on what you want to do, cleric could be so much better in the long run (shrug).
Depending what you want a Cleric dip might be better for the domain ability, but seeing as it makes you MAD and gives you a bunch of weak mod casting I wouldn't call Artificer a trap.

You raised no real case for Cleric being a better dip than Artificer IN GENERAL, I can certainly see certain domains helping build out certain class fantasies, but that's a case by case thing and why we see so many build advice threads posted here.


It's just my opinion, it's not like anyone cares, lol.
An opinion you made a thread on a public forum to discuss.

[BloodBrandy]

Are you saying that my race pick is bad because you don't like it? Seems like a kinda weird thing to say while you play a two variant flying race. Additionaly I don't really see warforged being a better package, sure yuan ti pureblood is nice but I was building a frontline fighter, why would I care about Elven accuracy?

To be fair, if you are rolling with a Finesse weapon on a dex based melee attacker, Elven Accuracy can be effective, or if you are a frontline spellcaster.

[diplomancer]

Some random thoughts on what I've seen in this thread:

1- Loading property, by RAW, has no interaction with spellcasting. A DM might houserule that if you are using a crossbow on your turn you are not able to cast a bonus action spell that requires somatic components at the same turn, because your hands are fully occupied with loading the crossbow, but that is a houserule. The only thing that the loading property does by RAW is to limit the number of the times you can fire it with an action, bonus action, or reaction. For reference, here's the PHB text: "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make." So, unless it's a spell that requires firing two pieces of ammunition (only one I can think of is Swift Quiver), there is absolutely no relation between the loading property and spellcasting.
2- I find it very odd to talk about "permissive DMs" at the same time that your build requires a class that was not designed for PCs and requires a permissive DM to even exist as a player option (let alone allowing multiclassing with a class that was not designed for PCs), as well as a race that a lot of DMs ban outright.
3- Twinning damage is always nice, but let us not pretend that doing X damage to two different creatures is the equivalent of doing 2X damage to one creature. Unless X damage is enough to kill at least one of the enemies, doing 2X damage to one creature will always be better.
4- Thieves's tools proficiency will only be useless if at least 2 other players in the group have it. If you are the only one that has it, it's obviously very useful. If there is another player that has it, the fact that you can give him advantage on every thieves' tool check is invaluable, almost guaranteeing success in most checks.

With all that said, I think that even though the Artificer is in many cases a better dip than the Cleric, it's not so much better that it's now an "automatic" dip, specially for people who rolled well enough to afford a 13 in WIS (with 27 point buy you are always making some significant sacrifice for it) , for the following reasons:
1- The Con save proficiency is very useful, but if you dump WIS and not get Res (Wis) at some point in your career, you will regret it. It's the main reason I dislike having Dex as the main save proficiency of my class, you have to get either con or wis, and that's a tough choice. Granted, getting the Con save at level 1 means that you can delay getting resilient wis to level 9 or 13 without too much trouble (I would recommend getting it at 9, that's when you can expect finding lots of monsters with Wis saving throws affecting abilities, waiting to 13 to top your Int). So, in the long run, starting with Con or Wis is pretty much a wash, you are going to have to shore up the other saving throw eventually.
2- The very fact that clerics get their domain features at level 1 means that the cleric dip is more versatile. If you don't want for your character any domain ability in particular, artificer will be better, but there are plenty of possible builds where you will want the domain ability.

[ravenkith]

@ dork_forge I think you're getting kind of emotionally worked up here, so I'm not sure I should continue you to debate with you on this subject. You're getting kind of circular in your reasoning and just hand-waving away my arguments without actually addressing them, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Just know that this discussion isn't personal.

First: "Different strokes for different folks" and "Going 3 deep into Battle Smith on a Blade Singer seems like a perfectly viable option, is it the most optimal for a primary casting style? No," are a) not an actual defense of said option (more of an admission of it not being a great choice) and b) not based in any kind of mechanical advantage at all.

Second: The way you talk about the cantrip issue is somewhat self contradictory, in that you say that they CAN matter at low levels, but deny that they matter, saying that you have plenty of spell slots. I can't agree with this, as, even with recovery methods, with the DMs I have and the parties I've played in, wizards almost ALWAYS run out of spell slots, especially at low levels.

I think you mean that while cantrips matter at low levels, they lose their relevance at higher levels, but I don't agree with that conclusion at all either.

The reason I disagree with this is because your number of slots available at each level decreases, meaning you only have one or two slots at most of your most powerful spell levels, and because of this, when you use them and what you use them for can be very important.

Most casters start the game with 2 1st level spell slots. As they level, they eventually get more slots. With 1 level dip, at max level, you end up with about 22 slots total, with 1 9th, 1 8th, 2 7th, 2 6th, 3 5th, 3 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 1st. This is, in my mind, not a lot of resources to have to last you a full adventuring day. You mention Arcane recovery, and that's a good ability, but it only gives you half your level in slots back on short rests, and can't give you anything higher than a 6th level slot anyway.

The twinned cantrip thing goes into effect at level 2, improves even more at level 5, and only becomes comparatively less efficient at level 11, when the fighter gets his third attack with modifier.

I know you don't like the comparison to a fighter without his advantages, but the assumption here is that you are comparing ONE character who is saving resources for more important battles to come with ANOTHER character who is saving resources as well. Granted, a lot of the fighters abilities come back on a short rest, so he may be less strict with his resource usage than a wizard has to be, but the idea is to find a baseline for action efficiency, and in term of what a character is expected to dish out round to round as you progress in levels, te THF without special abilities is a pretty good choice, as he gets multiple extra attacks. Bottom line, if you can dish out as much damage per round as a fighter who is not trying with your CANTRIP, you're probably doing ok. Remember, you still have all the wizard spells that every other wizard does, so you can be assumed to match their output with those slots - this is what you can do ON TOP OF THAT.

As to your contention that you must compare caster to caster, I tried comparing the cantrip's damage profile to disintegrate (the fact that it was even SLIGHTLY comparable in terms of damage output to a 6th level spell slot at no cost seemed to escape most people), but that seems to have distracted from the main point of the whole cantrip thing, which was to give the wizard more stamina so he can make it to that boss fight hopefully without running dry. It also sparked a discussion of how disintegrate sucks as a spell, and blah blah, blah......hence the fighter comparison. Less distraction.

One last thing on cantrips: As to the whole thaumaturgy thing, it's a joke and my way of poking fun at the generally USELESS ribbon ability of the Artificer class at level one. That 'feature' is a total joke, and ONLY adds flavor.

Third: With regards to the issue of juggling items, two handed weapons and reloading properties, etc: I point you to the artificer specifically, where it talks about tools as arcane foci, and specifically HAVING to have tools in hand to cast any artificer spells.

This point, when added to 2 handed weapons, reloading needs, material components and somatic gestures makes an already complicated juggling situation worse. The issue being, whether you are using a longbow or an xbow, your off hand needs to be free to reload it, meaning that if you are using an arcane focus and want to cast a spell on round one, then switch to your bow for round 2, you can't; you have to waste an action putting away your focus before you can load and fire the bow. If you want to alternate between artificer spells and wizard spells and your bow (cross or otherwise), you're gonna have even bigger problems. If you have a spell pouch for wizard, this is less of a problem, as you hang it on your belt and the need to draw and replace goes away, but you can't do that for artificer (shrug).

Now imagine that you're at second level, having survived level one, and want to start using a shield and cast spells. Well, now, as an artificer, you still have the same juggling problem. Basically, as an artificer, you need a third hand your entire career if you want to use a shield or an xbow and cast spells from the artificer and wizard spell lists.

With the Cleric on the other hand, if you go the shield route (which you probably should), you're mostly fine, as the shield can be your divine focus. Of course, this all depends on whether your DM is keeping track of all this and your ability to draw and stow items in combat or not - if your DM doesn't care, then this stuff doesn't become an issue - if you've got the kind of DM that does pay attention to that stuff, however, you're probably gonna have a bad time.

This is one of the reasons I actually prefer warcaster most of the time over resilient con, because depending on which DM i have, I might have to pay more attention to juggling than would be otherwise indicated, and warcaster specifically says you can handle the somatic gestures with an item in each hand (shrug).

That's a whole lot of text to say: "Juggling may be a problem for cleric dips, but its MORE of a problem for artificer dips". Guh. I feel dirty.

Fourth: Regarding the cure spells and short vs long rest thing - I made a typo. I meant to type SHORT rest, not long rest. The idea is that, as you go into a short rest, you can use some of your lower lever spell slots to top up and get 'em right back with arcane recovery. My bad (shrug).

Fifth: As to thieves tools - guidance and knock are both things that exist, IF THEY ARE NEEDED. Generally speaking, there are almost always two rogue types in the groups I play in anyway, but if thieves tools are that big of a deal to you, modify your background. Take Urban Bounty hunter, turn in insight for perception, and boom, bobs your uncle, instant thieves tools.

Sixth: Not bumping my primary stat until level 9, etc, etc..... Well, frankly, since the build I had initially put forward had Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 13, and Cha 8 and was a diviner that would be wearing medium armor, I really wasn't terribly worried about it.

The idea being that my Intellect was already a +3, I could easily swing dealing with that up until level 9, in large part due to the portent ability of the diviner: if I really, really needed someone to fail, there was the ability to force a fail on their part with a low diviner roll to back up my already decent save DC. Combined with my plan to take abilities that targeted different saves as well as AC, and I felt it wouldn't be an issue, especaially as I would take resilient con with that 4th level feat originally, popping that 15 con to a 16 con, and giving me an extra HP per level.

I think this is enough for now. Maybe more later.

[Teaguethebean]

I know you don't like the comparison to a fighter without his advantages, but the assumption here is that you are comparing ONE character who is saving resources for more important battles to come with ANOTHER character who is saving resources as well. Granted, a lot of the fighters abilities come back on a short rest, so he may be less strict with his resource usage than a wizard has to be, but the idea is to find a baseline for action efficiency, and in term of what a character is expected to dish out round to round as you progress in levels, te THF without special abilities is a pretty good choice, as he gets multiple extra attacks. Bottom line, if you can dish out as much damage per round as a fighter who is not trying with your CANTRIP, you're probably doing ok. Remember, you still have all the wizard spells that every other wizard does, so you can be assumed to match their output with those slots - this is what you can do ON TOP OF THAT.
I think a better baseline is a warlock spamming EB with Hex and Agonizing blast. So at lv2 an average of 12 is expected which assuming you get to twin then toll the dead just squeaks by. But by level 5 a 26 from EB leaves the two at the same damage but by Level 11 the toll the dead falls behind 39 compared to 42 finalizing with 56 to 52. Not bad but not accounting for a chance to crit and the twin only happening about half the time in practice. It is more like 39 at max level and being a bit to situational to be a powerful option

[ravenkith]

I think a better baseline is a warlock spamming EB with Hex and Agonizing blast. So at lv2 an average of 12 is expected which assuming you get to twin then toll the dead just squeaks by. But by level 5 a 26 from EB leaves the two at the same damage but by Level 11 the toll the dead falls behind 39 compared to 42 finalizing with 56 to 52. Not bad but not accounting for a chance to crit and the twin only happening about half the time in practice. It is more like 39 at max level and being a bit to situational to be a powerful option

I think I've stated before that the twinning is situational, and that past level 11, you can't keep up with the fighter. These are points I'm not arguing with.

I think I also mentioned that, this particular set of abilities was also most useful at lower levels to enhance survivability.

I think that that the key things to remember with the twinning ability are:
1) It's a free add on that the cleric class brings to the table that gives your wizard a fall back capability that makes you competitive with fighter damage output at low levels up to level 10, enabling you to be more strict with resource management and still contribute in combat, not bringing the party down.

2) While not as competitive at levels above 10, it can still be used against low level mooks and crowds of less threatening monsters that would otherwise probably requir you to use a lower lever spell slot o deal with efficiently, thus saving that slot for later use.

3) This is not a functionality that can be provided by the artificer class at all.

The key here is that the death cleric 1 dip gives you the key features of the artificer 1 dip (access to light, medium armor and shields, d8 starting hit die, spell slot progression), plus more (2 extra cantrip selections, free false life spell, Martial weapon proficiencies, free twinning on necro cantrips) , with two notable exceptions: 1 is that you have to spend a few points to bring up your wisdom to meet entry requirements, and the second is con proficiency.

Con proficiency can be a big deal. It certainly IS a big deal at later (mid range) levels. It is much less so at higher levels.

At first level, con proficiency just gives you an extra +2 to the roll, but it scales with your proficiency bonus as you go. It seems like a pretty good deal.

But look at the math on that for a second. Lets say you take damage from an imp at level 1 (CR 1). First you get hit by the sting for 1d4+3. Then you fail your con save and take 3d6 poison. Your difficulty is going to be 10, or half damage, whichever number is higher for your concentration checks.

With these damage dice rolls, for each of these damages, you'll be making a DC 10 roll. Without con proficiency, you get (assuming you, too have a 15 con) a + 4 to the roll, meaning that as long as you roll a 6, you keep concentration. For the record, that's a 25% chance of failure (1-5).

Without your +2 proficiency bonus, you have to roll an 8 to keep concentration. For the record, that's a 35% (1-7) chance of failure. 10% difference.

While this is statistically significant, from a mathematical perspective, both dips are STILL far more likely to fail than to succeed at each of these checks at this point in the game. The problem here is that, even by taking con proficiency, you haven't pushed yourself into a place where the save is automatically successful.

Essentially, what I'm saying here is that +2 to saves from level 1-4 isn't going to be a game changer. If it got you to a place where you couldn't fail, it'd be worth it, but it doesn't.

Now lets move on to level 5.

Your artificer has con proficiency and a con of 15. At level 5 he takes a bonus to his INT (as implied by arguments made elsewhere). His ability to make saves is slightly improved (by 1 point, thanks to proficiency, or 5%). He now has only a 20% chance to fail concentration saves.

The wizard base takes resilient con/con proficiency at level 5 and adds a point of con to his score, bringing it up to 16. He now has the +3 from his con score as well as the +3 from his proficiency, meaning to hit a DC 10, all he has to roll is a 3. He only has a 15% chance of failure, and is now BETTER at concentration checks than the Artificer would be, and also gets more HP per level.

With point buy, it's not like you can buy a higher starting con to offset this, either.

Now, let's also note that at this point - level 5 - you have enemy casters running around the battlefield with spells like fireball and warriors with things like 2d6 + 5 + 10 + whatever melee strikes. 10 may well not be the DC you are looking at from this point on against damage. (Spells that affect concentration in a non-damaging way will use the spell dc in any case).

And let's be honest, both casters WILL fail a dex save: neither artificer nor cleric base is proficient in dex saves, and will likely have a maximum of a +2 on the roll. Both are toast here are far as the save is concerned.

Fireballs base average damage per person per failed save,as you may know, is 28. This sets your con save DC at 14. As a side note, if the enemy rolls damage and maxes out, however, your dc could be as high as 24(!).

That average damage number of 14 means that the artificer base is making the save with a +5, meaning that on an 8 or less (40%) they fail. The cleric base is looking at a 35% or less to fail. Ultimately it is really, really similar, although it is advantage cleric.

Granted, a ward or THP or absorb elements can help with the DCs by reducing damage, but as we've pointed out, these builds could be completely the same in every other way other than the base, so we don't really have to discuss that. Let me just say that having the twinned cantrips to fall back on means that it probably doesn't hurt quite as much to blow a spell slot on false life or absorb elements or shield for the cleric base.

Moving up to the next break point, at level 9, you each get a + 1 from proficiency. Assuming all other things remain the same (we're both probably investing in INT still) we're now at +6 and +7, meaning that dc 10 is looking pretty easy at 10% fail chance for the cleric base and 15% for the artificer base. BUT, at level 9, enemies now have even bigger guns. 5th and 4th level spells are on the table.

The enemy casts dominate person on the artificer base, which isn't proficient in will saves and has no modifier (or worse, a negative) because wisdom is a dump stat for it.

The cleric base, on the other hand, is wisdom proficient AND has a +1. He is ALMOST as good at will saves as he is at con saves (10% worse).

Now sure, against a straight melee punk coming at you with a sword, you're probably going to be able to make those saves just fine regardless of which base you are using, but if you get in the middle of a circle of archers and warriors and are getting hit 8-10+ times a round, from a statistical standpoint, sooner or later you're going to fail anyway, even at DC 10, because a 1 (or 1.5) in 10 chance is exactly that, a 1 in 10 chance.

Warcaster, on the other hand, gives you advantage (effective + 5) on those rolls right when you take the feat, and if you stacked diviner (false life) on it instead of abjurer (AOA + ward), you'd have probably more security against a broader array of threats, thanks to portent.

As far as the stat points go, you are sinking 5 points into wisdom to make it go. With the right race, you can still end up with 8 str, 14 dex, 15 con, 15 int,, 13 wis an 8 cha. Where's the difficulty? It's not like you, as a wizard, have a lot of use for STR or CHA anyways...

But that's just math talking, feel free to ignore it.

[kazaryu]

This is one of the reasons I actually prefer warcaster most of the time over resilient con, because depending on which DM i have, I might have to pay more attention to juggling than would be otherwise indicated, and warcaster specifically says you can handle the somatic gestures with an item in each hand (shrug).



to be fair, with the exception of DC 20+ saving throws, warcaster is better at maintaining your concentration anyway for the vast majority of where people play. this contention becomes more debatable when you get a +5 prof but before that warcaster is superior.

edit: realisitcally, its based on your overall bonus to con saves. if you have an abnormally high con (18+) then the numbers shift around significantly, it mostly focuses on when you get to the +8/9 to con saves. and even then tis jsut a wash. the only time con save proficiency is actually better objectively better than warcaster is for dc20+ saves, or if you're being forced to roll ALOT of small saves.


this makes me wanna play a con focused, variant human, abjurer wizard with both....i mean, i've played with both before, its nice...but like... REALLY double down on the tankiness....