Stealth, Hide in plain sight, Greater Invisibility mechanics

[martixy]

Hiding has always been somewhat ambiguous, and these days it features prominently in my game, and I'm not sure we're playing it right.

The title might imply Pathfinder and for the most part its true, but I don't make too great a distinction between 3.5 and PF1. Though PF at least makes further clarifications. (E.g. Breaking stealth (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth))

My issues are:
1. The action for hiding is usually none(except when sniping). So if you have hide in plain sight, what's stopping a character from declaring that he hides after each and every attack.
2. If you have the Shadow Creature template, which gives a (permanent, if conditional) Total Concealment ability you can just hide at will. At that point does just work like Greater Invisibility?
3. Speaking of which, what exactly is perceived when you have greater invisibility? You don't see the creature, but maybe you see an arrow/ray appear out of thin air? If you are struck by an invisible sword, do you know which square the attack came from?
4. What's the difference between shadow creature's total concealment and invisibility (apart from their extraneous parameters)? I assume both allow you to attack as an invisible creature (denying dex, +2 to atk).

[Malroth]

Watching this so I learn as well

[Crake]

Whether you're playing pathfinder or not does actually matter, as there are some distinctions between 3.5 and pathfinder that are ultimately contradictory. In 3.5 for example, you can attack in melee while hiding with a -20 bonus, but in pathfinder you simply cannot continue to hide while attacking in melee.

3.5 also does have rules on breaking stealth, but they're not in the core rules, they're in complete adventurer under expanded skill uses, page 101, "Move between cover", along with two urban uses, blending into a crowd, and tailing someone.

To answer your questions though

1) Hiding isn't an action in and of itself, but is done as part of movement. If you can find a way to move between each attack, then you can continue to re-hide between each attack, though if you're playing 3.5, you can simply attempt to remain stealthed, at a -20 bonus. The difference is that if you hide after each attack, there is a time when you are not hidden, and, say, a readied attack can target you. If you remain hidden by taking the -20 penalty, you neither need to move, nor can you be targetted.
2) Talking about shadow blend, yes, it's basically like permanent greater invis.
3) Invisibility specifies that when objects leave you, they become visible, so you can see an arrow flying through the air. The rules also do specify if you are hit in melee, even if the enemy has total concealment, you know which square the attack came from. This is obviously negated by simply taking a 5ft step after you attack, but a readied action will still work fine
4) Invisibility is total concealment, so they're practically the same. Note that if you have total concealment, you don't need to make hide checks at all. Invisibility is actually the exception to this rule, as you can pinpoint an invisible creature's square with a sufficient spot check, so shadow blend is a liiitttllee bit superior, because it lacks that clause, no amount of spotting will let you find it.

[martixy]

Yay! I now actually understand how Stealth works.

While 3.5/PF does have differences, ultimately it doesn't matter to me. In actual play, which, for a change of the usual fare of TO and RAW, is what this thread is about, I consider them more of a guideline.

That said, can I get a citation of 3), knowing which square an attack comes from, I don't find anything in the Rules Compendium under concealment.

[DeTess]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility


If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

[Fizban]

1) Hiding isn't an action in and of itself, but is done as part of movement. If you can find a way to move between each attack, then you can continue to re-hide between each attack, though if you're playing 3.5, you can simply attempt to remain stealthed, at a -20 bonus. The difference is that if you hide after each attack, there is a time when you are not hidden, and, say, a readied attack can target you. If you remain hidden by taking the -20 penalty, you neither need to move, nor can you be targetted.
The bigger problem here is how Hide in Plain Sight works, as there are multiple versions of the ability that often reference the wrong thing or just don't make sense: if your Hide in Plain Sight references Ranger but doesn't actually give any other info, congratulations, you can hide while being observed- in natural terrain, if you have cover or concealment. If it specifies a different type of terrain- too bad, you still need cover or concealment, because Ranger had a separate ability for getting around that. If it references Shadowdancer, which explicitly says you need nothing to hide behind, then it's fairly clear- unless it has some modifying text that makes it unclear again. Of course, Shadowdancer also fails to seriously define shadow, and turning invisible because there's a small cabinet 5' away from you casting a shadow in the other direction is ridiculous no matter how Su it is. So that could also be read as the ability to hide while being observed- as long as you're within 10' of a square with shadowy illumination to hide in, or at least something your size with the right lighting angle for pete's sake. Oh what's that? Your Hide in Plain Sight ability just says it's Hide in Plain Sight and doesn't even include a reference, as if it were a glossary ability? Hahahahaha. Ha.

And like I just said in a different thread, there are plenty of other concealment abilities which also fail to include important text- stuff that's clearly meant to work as a Displacement or Blur effect, but lacking the "as if" text that theoretically stops Displacement from letting you vanish, and some people decide that even Blur can also let you walk out in the open invisibly because reasons. Basically, I treat anything involving stealth or concealment as automatically suspect for needing a rewrite and ignore any rulings that don't make sense.

3) Invisibility specifies that when objects leave you, they become visible, so you can see an arrow flying through the air. The rules also do specify if you are hit in melee, even if the enemy has total concealment, you know which square the attack came from. This is obviously negated by simply taking a 5ft step after you attack, but a readied action will still work fine
There are plenty of situations where taking a 5' step won't do squat depending on walls, terrain, positioning, etc, as long as the DM isn't faking. Anything bigger than medium will have half or more of its body still in the same spot- it's basically 50/50 even without something blocking one direction.

[Crake]

If it references Shadowdancer, which explicitly says you need nothing to hide behind, then it's fairly clear- unless it has some modifying text that makes it unclear again. Of course, Shadowdancer also fails to seriously define shadow, and turning invisible because there's a small cabinet 5' away from you casting a shadow in the other direction is ridiculous no matter how Su it is. So that could also be read as the ability to hide while being observed- as long as you're within 10' of a square with shadowy illumination to hide in, or at least something your size with the right lighting angle for pete's sake.

Shadowdancer (and assassin, since they both practically use the same hide in plain sight ability) are the main hide in plain sight I base my assumptions off. "Within 10 feet of some sort of shadow" seems intentionally easy to fulfill, pretty much the only way to negate the ability is to be in an open area with nothing that casts shadows, like a desert dune, though if there's someone nearby, you can still hide in their shadow, or for the lighting to be sufficiently umbral that no clear shadows for, such as when you have a very heavily overcast day and the clouds scatter the light to the point where most things won't cast a clearly defined shadow.

Whether you think it's dumb that something 5ft away casting a shadow in the opposite direction qualifies to let you hide or not, that's how the ability states it works. That small cabinet is casting a shadow, that shadow is "some sort of shadow", and is within 10ft. The fact that it has to specify that you cannot hide in your own shadow to me is definitive proof that it is merely a shadow that is required, not a square of shadowy illumination or something like that. Literally just a shadow that isn't your own, and within 10ft.

[Fizban]

Yeah, I wouldn't have to point out that it makes no sense if they hadn't specifically written it to not make sense. Considering the OP is concerned with actual play and has specifically said they're willing to disregard TO/RAW and consider the rules as guidelines, the fact that this rule allows literally worse than Loony Toon antics is relevant. Eventually someone will notice and you should have a response ready, whether or not you like it that way.

[Crake]

Yeah, I wouldn't have to point out that it makes no sense if they hadn't specifically written it to not make sense. Considering the OP is concerned with actual play and has specifically said they're willing to disregard TO/RAW and consider the rules as guidelines, the fact that this rule allows literally worse than Loony Toon antics is relevant. Eventually someone will notice and you should have a response ready, whether or not you like it that way.

I imagine the standard explanation (and the one that I use) is that shadows are thin veils between the material and the shadow plane, and that shadowdancers (and powerful assassins, since their abilities are identical), who gain their power from the plane of shadow, can draw on that power to help conceal themselves. They aren't hiding in the shadow or anything, but the shadow is acting as a conduit for their powers. Why they can't hide in their own shadow is pretty much a balance thing plain and simple.

[martixy]

I imagine the standard explanation (and the one that I use) is that shadows are thin veils between the material and the shadow plane, and that shadowdancers (and powerful assassins, since their abilities are identical), who gain their power from the plane of shadow, can draw on that power to help conceal themselves. They aren't hiding in the shadow or anything, but the shadow is acting as a conduit for their powers. Why they can't hide in their own shadow is pretty much a balance thing plain and simple.

Hm, I never thought of it this way, but I can work with that. I imagine wisps of darkness striking out from whatever shadow is nearby. Neat.

Still waiting on that citation too.

[DeTess]

Still waiting on that citation too.

I already gave you the relevant citation from the srd, the post directly after you asked for one.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder actually did provide much more detailed guidance on hiding in Ultimate Intrigue - these rules also got copied over to Starfinder as well. Perception & Stealth (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Perception%20and%20Stealth&Category=Skills%20in%20Conflict)

The short version is that there are four states of awareness:

1) Unaware - you don't know a particular creature is present.
2) Aware of Presence - you know they're there, but not where.
3) Aware of Location - you know roughly where they are (down to the square) but haven't pinpointed them, so they might still have cover or concealment. This is usually the result of using an imprecise sense (like scent, hearing or blindsense) to perceive them.
4) Observing - You know exactly where they are and can target them normally. This requires a precise sense like sight, touch or blindsight.

Note that the GM can rule that certain senses are more or less precise than normal. For example, a monster might have bad eyesight and can only pinpoint creatures that are moving, seeing them imprecisely at other times. Another creature might have a sense of hearing so keen that it can pinpoint enemies with it, though that might be more accurately represented mechanically as blindsight.

[martixy]

I already gave you the relevant citation from the srd, the post directly after you asked for one.

I absolutely did not see that. You literally ninja'd it it. It hid in the shadows... I could go on. And it'd be somehow off-topic, and very much on topic. :smallbiggrin:
Thanks.


Pathfinder actually did provide much more detailed guidance on hiding in Ultimate Intrigue - these rules also got copied over to Starfinder as well. Perception & Stealth (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Perception%20and%20Stealth&Category=Skills%20in%20Conflict)

The short version is that there are four states of awareness:

1) Unaware - you don't know a particular creature is present.
2) Aware of Presence - you know they're there, but not where.
3) Aware of Location - you know roughly where they are (down to the square) but haven't pinpointed them, so they might still have cover or concealment. This is usually the result of using an imprecise sense (like scent, hearing or blindsense) to perceive them.
4) Observing - You know exactly where they are and can target them normally. This requires a precise sense like sight, touch or blindsight.

Note that the GM can rule that certain senses are more or less precise than normal. For example, a monster might have bad eyesight and can only pinpoint creatures that are moving, seeing them imprecisely at other times. Another creature might have a sense of hearing so keen that it can pinpoint enemies with it, though that might be more accurately represented mechanically as blindsight.

Oh, that is actually cool. Comprehensive treatment of skills something exceptionally rare in the 3.5 ecosystem (at best, you have everything scattered in like 5 splatbooks). On that note - THIS (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxmYXJzaWRlb2ZrcnlubnxneDox YjU0YzU3YzY2MDZiM2Jh) is a super-useful index, because it catalogues all of these instances.

Most def will check it out.

[GrayDeath]

Just posting to say that, as a complete party with insane Stealth Mods (the worst has a +30 bmod, the best +41) and HIPS, these things are more or less what our group has been doing to stomp far above our CR (once even against a Level 15 Sorcerer who luckily for us wasnt expecting us and had no Divination^^).

If done right, Stealth is truly frightening.

Now however we seem to be going to ahve to go up against a lot of BLindsight/Tremorsense guys (guess why^^), so we need to adapt.

[Psyren]

Just posting to say that, as a complete party with insane Stealth Mods (the worst has a +30 bmod, the best +41) and HIPS, these things are more or less what our group has been doing to stomp far above our CR (once even against a Level 15 Sorcerer who luckily for us wasnt expecting us and had no Divination^^).

Note that your GM might reduce the EL of a foe that is heavily disadvantaged vs. the party because they're not actually that challenging an opponent for you, just like he/she might if a foe were permanently blinded.



Now however we seem to be going to ahve to go up against a lot of BLindsight/Tremorsense guys (guess why^^), so we need to adapt.

Darkstalker/Dampen Presence?

[GrayDeath]

Oh, my character (as the only noncaster, playing a Rogue Warblade Shadowpuncer Gestalt) already has it. But the other must rely on being tiny and flying for now, as as casters they need the feats more, or so they say ^^

And yeah, we got a lot elss xp for the surprised sorcerer, as well as for an earlier encounter of a CR 18 melee mosnter that our Arcane Hierophant "Nat 20ied" to "friendly" by accidentally feeding it its favourite food and rolling handle animal ^^


Still, first time I got a group who really, fully utilizes stealth, and overall uses "active thinking and planning. Probably bewcause we are actually the Bad guys, mostly.
Lots of fun.

[Psyren]

I'd argue that casters need feats less, since their spells can do the heavy lifting, but if they're having fun without Darkstalker that's what counts.

The monster you defeated by befriending it shouldn't have been less XP in my mind - the challenge there wasn't reduced in any way, you just had a lucky roll. Being a creature type that is susceptible to Handle Animal/Wild Empathy is presumably already factored into its existing CR.

[Crake]

The monster you defeated by befriending it shouldn't have been less XP in my mind - the challenge there wasn't reduced in any way, you just had a lucky roll. Being a creature type that is susceptible to Handle Animal/Wild Empathy is presumably already factored into its existing CR.

It is worth noting that if you did roll handle animal to befriend it, then that was actually simply the wrong use of the skill. Handle animal is meant to be used to rear and train animals, or to handle already domesticated/trained animals. It does not cover befriending animals at all, that is entirely the domain of wild empathy, so I'd say, if your DM allowed you to use handle animal to befriend it, then that would count as a huge advantage (skills can be buffed far easier than wild emapthy can, not to mention wild emapthy is a class specific ability), and would warrant a reduced XP reward.

[Aotrs Commander]

Pathfinder actually did provide much more detailed guidance on hiding in Ultimate Intrigue - these rules also got copied over to Starfinder as well. Perception & Stealth (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Perception%20and%20Stealth&Category=Skills%20in%20Conflict)

The short version is that there are four states of awareness:

1) Unaware - you don't know a particular creature is present.
2) Aware of Presence - you know they're there, but not where.
3) Aware of Location - you know roughly where they are (down to the square) but haven't pinpointed them, so they might still have cover or concealment. This is usually the result of using an imprecise sense (like scent, hearing or blindsense) to perceive them.
4) Observing - You know exactly where they are and can target them normally. This requires a precise sense like sight, touch or blindsight.

Note that the GM can rule that certain senses are more or less precise than normal. For example, a monster might have bad eyesight and can only pinpoint creatures that are moving, seeing them imprecisely at other times. Another creature might have a sense of hearing so keen that it can pinpoint enemies with it, though that might be more accurately represented mechanically as blindsight.

It killed us when we first trieds to do an ambush that Starfinder followed that good idea up by completely dropping the ball by denoting anything that was not "Observed" as "unseen" and gave out the Stealth bonus for Invisibility (+20/+40) to it, which was bad enough, but while simultaneously forgetting that PF, while it gave that bonus for Stealth to Invisility (because 3.5 did - to Hide), remembered to add "but DC 20 Perception to locate via sound" (which 3.5 did for Listen) in the invisibility rules, which Starfinder did not.

Leading to the truly ridiculous situation that two groups sneaking around looking for each other in the forest will almost certainly never find each other (nat 20 at best) and the very real possibility that my 1st level Goblin operative could hide from a 20th level character by just dodging around the corner of a building or diving into a bush and then standing still. Ambushes can never fail since, the only time you can USE the Stealth skill is if you are not observed (and thus get +20/+40...)

I can see what they thought they were doing with that, but they failed to consider that the ported in Stealth bonuses were from 3.5 and further that they missed the logic that a creature that is itself hiding ought to have some penalties on its own vision if stealth is that powerful...

[Crake]

It killed us when we first trieds to do an ambush that Starfinder followed that good idea up by completely dropping the ball by denoting anything that was not "Observed" as "unseen" and gave out the Stealth bonus for Invisibility (+20/+40) to it, which was bad enough, but while simultaneously forgetting that PF, while it gave that bonus for Stealth to Invisility (because 3.5 did - to Hide), remembered to add "but DC 20 Perception to locate via sound" (which 3.5 did for Listen) in the invisibility rules, which Starfinder did not.

Leading to the truly ridiculous situation that two groups sneaking around looking for each other in the forest will almost certainly never find each other (nat 20 at best) and the very real possibility that my 1st level Goblin operative could hide from a 20th level character by just dodging around the corner of a building or diving into a bush and then standing still. Ambushes can never fail since, the only time you can USE the Stealth skill is if you are not observed (and thus get +20/+40...)

I can see what they thought they were doing with that, but they failed to consider that the ported in Stealth bonuses were from 3.5 and further that they missed the logic that a creature that is itself hiding ought to have some penalties on its own vision if stealth is that powerful...

This is exactly why I dislike that pathfinder rolled stealth and perception into a single skill.

[martixy]

Still, first time I got a group who really, fully utilizes stealth, and overall uses "active thinking and planning".

I see you are living the dream over here... you bastard. :smallbiggrin:
I wish I had a party like that. I've been thinking of involving my NPCs a bit more to prod them to do ****.


This is exactly why I dislike that pathfinder rolled stealth and perception into a single skill.

And that is precisely why I have taken the approach of calling pathfinder's skills "skill groups" - a skill point grants you rank in all skills in a group, but they're still separate - Search is still Int-based for example. Listening is still a listen check. When I play I call for spot checks, not perception checks. Even though I otherwise LOVE what PF did to skills - basically everything else, the flat bonus for class skills, getting rid of cross-class, retroactive skill points for +INT.

[Aotrs Commander]

This is exactly why I dislike that pathfinder rolled stealth and perception into a single skill.

The solution is as simple as just having spot Perception and listen Perception (after all, PF has Acrobatics check to tumble and jump and stuff) conditional modifers and when they don't apply, for the good 90% of the time, it's less rolling (and less chance for the player to roll badly and fail) and you just have the other 10% as conditional where it matters.



Granted, I still have Search as a seperate skill myself (but slightly redfined to be explicitly tactile and active), which I am treating more like how (from how the podcasts I listen to) seem to treat UInvestigation in 5e.

[Psyren]

It killed us when we first trieds to do an ambush that Starfinder followed that good idea up by completely dropping the ball by denoting anything that was not "Observed" as "unseen" and gave out the Stealth bonus for Invisibility (+20/+40) to it, which was bad enough, but while simultaneously forgetting that PF, while it gave that bonus for Stealth to Invisility (because 3.5 did - to Hide), remembered to add "but DC 20 Perception to locate via sound" (which 3.5 did for Listen) in the invisibility rules, which Starfinder did not.

I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Starfinder has the exact same four states of awareness as Ultimate Intrigue. (SF-CRB pg. 260, UI pg. 188.)


This is exactly why I dislike that pathfinder rolled stealth and perception into a single skill.

Perception is an abstract that uses all your senses, and Stealth is your attempt to conceal yourself from detection by those senses any way you can. You as the GM are supposed to step in if you feel a given bonus to Stealth or Perception would not apply to a given situation. Splitting the skills up into "Hearing and Seeing" like 3.5. did - or worse, "Hearing, Seeing, Smell, Taste, Touch" might make that separation clearer, but it also screws over classes without dozens of skill points to spend when those other scenarios don't come up often enough to warrant it anyway. Getting rid of it in favor of common sense was the right move.

[Aotrs Commander]

I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Starfinder has the exact same four states of awareness as Ultimate Intrigue. (SF-CRB pg. 260, UI pg. 188.)

Oh, yes, they did. The problem is, they copy-pasted that but then didn't copy-paste the equally critical parts of the invisibilty rules which counter those modifiers.

This in particular:


DEALING WITH UNSEEN CREATURES
If you are unaware of a creature, aware of a creature’s presence, or aware of a creature’s location, that creature is considered to be “unseen” for you. A stationary unseen creature has a +40 bonus to Stealth checks, but this bonus is reduced to +20 if the unseen creature moves (and these bonuses are negated for potential observers with blindsense). An unseen creature benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance) against attacks. In addition, you are considered flat-footed against an unseen creature’s attacks.

Now, I can't find that bit of rules on Nethys for Pathfinder - you might be able to in the actul books, maybe, but it's this that is the big problem.

("Unseen" is basically invisibility only without the +2 to hit, note.)


Invisible
An invisible creature is visually undetectable. A creature using only an imprecise sense, or whose only precise sense is vision, can’t observe an invisible creature, so the invisible creature is unseen by such a would-be observer. Creatures with blindsight can perceive invisible creatures normally, since blindsight is a precise sense that does not rely on vision, and thus can observe invisible creatures. See Senses on page 260 and Dealing with Unseen Creatures on page 261 for more information.

Invisible
Invisible creatures remain invisible even in unusual environments, such as underwater, and when subject to effects such as fog or smoke. They are not magically silenced. They can still be heard, smelled, and felt as normal, even if other creatures can’t see them. Invisible creatures leave tracks and can be tracked normally. A character looking for an invisible creature might find his quarry if the invisible creature drops an item, speaks, smells strongly, leaves an obvious trail, or performs some action that makes itself known. Finding an invisible creature in this way requires a Perception check as normal. If successful, and assuming your only precise sense is vision, you become aware of the invisible creature’s presence, but you don’t know its exact location. If you’re looking for an invisible creature, the GM might rule that you have a bonus or penalty to your Perception checks based on the situation.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items it picks up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus creating the effect of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the creature carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Invisibility does not thwart divination spells or effects. Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks (see the Starfinder Alien Archive). If you are or become invisible while grappled, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your check to escape being grappled, but you gain no other benefit against the grappler.

Invisibility and Hiding
If you are invisible or benefit from total concealment, you gain a +40 bonus to your Stealth check as long as you remain immobile. You are considered immobile if it is your turn and you have not yet moved or if you have not moved since the
start of your last turn. If you are invisible but not immobile, you instead gain a +20 bonus to your Stealth check. Typically, a creature cannot attack you if you are invisible or have total concealment unless the creature pinpoints you
with a successful Perception check. (Invisible creatures can still be heard, smelled, and felt, and might do something to make themselves known to those who succeed at Perception checks; see Invisible on page 264 in Chapter 8.) Even then,
the attacking creature has a 50% miss chance against the pinpointed creature.

Peception
Search
As a move action, you can use Perception to search for something in particular, such as finding an invisible creature that has made itself known or a hidden creature you know is in the area, or looking for nearby traps or hazards.

Link to Nethys table with DCs (https://www.aonsrd.com/Skills.aspx?ItemName=Perception) (because actually putting this into a forum table is impractical for time)

Note the absense of anything to reduce DCs (other than by "well, the DM might say so," which is an extremely poor way to go about things if, as you say, this was intended to be played by beginners) and even the lack of "detect unseen/inivisible creature" or something, the best you get is "creature using stealth."


Notice
You can use Perception to notice things happening around you. This is the most basic task of the Perception skill. It can be used for a variety of reasons determined by the GM. You might attempt a Perception check to see if you can act in a surprise round, to spot something important out of the corner of your eye, or to realize there are hidden creatures nearby (though you can’t notice a creature that is invisible unless it makes itself known; see page 264).


Now. Notice how in none of that text are the modifiers PATHFINDER has under the invisibilty rules that counter the big bonus - namely the critical -20 penalty for combat or speaking and the penalties for movement, which Starfinder elected to omit. (They had a -10 for moving more than half speed in the hiding section of Stealth, and that's it.) But without those modifiers, by the rules they have written, a hiding creature will become impossible to ever detect (especially given the bounded accuracy) because +20/+40 takes you outside of the boundaries of the dice and stats, level-irrelevant; the only counter is the hard counter of blindsight.

Pathfinder, for comparison:


A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

Link to Nethys table (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Invisibility&Category=Special%20Abilities)

Noting that -20 if in combat or speaking and the big penalties for movement (which are, of course, cumulative.)

Now, it doens't look like ultimate intrigue had that bit on "unseen," so as far as I can tell, they didn't need to worry about conflating "unseen" with "invisible" as SF has done, since even if they HAD, PF at the bare minimum, at least implictly provides the tools to deal with those insanely high bonuses via its invisibility rules. Starfinder? Does NOT.

(Side note: SF's rules don't explictly say so, actually, but because they don't explictly say not, someone could interpret an unseen invisible creature standing still as getting a +80 bonus to Stealth, 40 for being unseen and 40 for being invisible. Now I don't think any reasonable DM would rule it that way, and I'm sure that was not what was intended, but that's as it stands.)

[GrayDeath]

Ugh, my mistake, it was Wild Empathy.
SInce I didnt build a "Nature" CHaracter in.....well, a decade orr so, I switched them up.
Still, the player maassively enjoyed us and especially the DM looking at him ala YOu just befriended a 4 attacks 300hp insane AC COmbat mosnter we would have had a really hard time with...."



I see you are living the dream over here... you bastard. :smallbiggrin:
I wish I had a party like that. I've been thinking of involving my NPCs a bit more to prod them to do ****.



Well, it took a long time to find this (my second) group to do it like that.

Right now we are stranded on a World within an unescapable Crystal Sphere after taking over Baba Jagas Hut (its fun to do such things when you know she is distracted by fighting another epic Wizard somewhere else^^). Whichw e will likely have to mostly conquer to deactivate whatever keeps us trapped.

Ah, the joys of doing some proactive Conquering. ^^

[sleepyphoenixx]

Of course, Shadowdancer also fails to seriously define shadow, and turning invisible because there's a small cabinet 5' away from you casting a shadow in the other direction is ridiculous no matter how Su it is. So that could also be read as the ability to hide while being observed- as long as you're within 10' of a square with shadowy illumination to hide in, or at least something your size with the right lighting angle for pete's sake.
You don't need a supernatural ability to hide in a shadow that's big enough and the right angle. That's not even an extraordinary ability, that's simply a normal function of the hide skill.
The ability isn't called "hide in shadows". The entire point of it is that you can hide in places where there's nothing to hide behind or in.

[Crake]

Perception is an abstract that uses all your senses, and Stealth is your attempt to conceal yourself from detection by those senses any way you can. You as the GM are supposed to step in if you feel a given bonus to Stealth or Perception would not apply to a given situation. Splitting the skills up into "Hearing and Seeing" like 3.5. did - or worse, "Hearing, Seeing, Smell, Taste, Touch" might make that separation clearer, but it also screws over classes without dozens of skill points to spend when those other scenarios don't come up often enough to warrant it anyway. Getting rid of it in favor of common sense was the right move.

To me the better solution would be to simply have weighted skills, where some skills are more or less costly than others. The notion that being good at searching necessitates that you be good spotting and listening as well, or being good at hiding necessitates you're also good at moving silently, or that being good at balancing means you're also good at jumping etc just annoys me. As you said, when differentiating, you as the DM can make your own judgement calls (though the fact that the pathfinder rules seem to completely disregard the difference is also annoying), but for example, you can't have a musician with a keen ear, without him also being able to spot a wren at a hundred yards darting through the forest.