Crappy parent = man

[denthor]

V is Male due to horrible parenting.

As witnesses I call forth

Haley's father chaotic and kill all feeling

Roy's father I have no time for feels like V can understand this.

Elan and Nales father be my unthinking pawn. Where did she think all that great fertilizer came from how dare she tell to quit killing men who slap her bottom. (Possibly Anel's father as well)

[CriticalFailure]

Counterpoint: V is female to bring some balance to the terrible parenting.

Seriously though I like to imagine V as female in large part because doing so balances things out more and V has a lot of plot lines and character stuff of the type female characters just don’t usually get. When I first read the comic I assumed V was male based on the art.

[Peelee]

Counterpoint:


Actual literary analysis is so rare around here that I feel compelled to respond to this.


Parents in a story like this are either in conflict with their children somehow, or not present somehow.

This is probably the most accurate statement regarding my intent. The only reason for the parents of any of the characters to participate in the story at all is to create internal conflict for the main character. So if the parent is going to appear in more than a handful of panels, there needs to be some sort of unresolved issue with their offspring. Otherwise, I would do what I did with the nonhuman parents, which is simply not bring it up. (I also avoided using the nonhumans that way because I didn't want to delve too deeply into differences in maturity and/or child rearing between species.)

The reason it's only one parent per child is twofold. One, having both parents be in conflict triples the amount of time I need to spend dealing with it, because you need to examine the father-child, mother-child, and father-mother relationships instead of just one parent-child relationship. This is further compounded for every sibling that appears in the story. Family issues already take up a fair amount of space, so anything I could do to streamline them is a good idea. And two, the main characters ultimately turned out OK. Thus, they needed to have at least one stable loving parent in order to not be total basketcases. (Haley, whose stable parent died early, is also the most screwed-up, psychologically.) Therefore, the first parent who was given definition in the story became the one that would be more prominent, and thus the one that caused conflict. Which leads us to...


Why this distinction is evenly divided between male and female parents for Roy, Elan, and Haley, I'm not sure though.

I wish I could claim that this was some sort of statement about men and fathering and such, but the fact is it just sort of happened that way. The roles of the three human characters' parents were decided within the first 50 strips, long before I had even conceived any of the plots that are happening now (or even the main Gate plot). Haley told us that her father was a thief back in #8 in what was a throwaway joke; Roy's dad showed up just seven strips later. I have no idea why I used fathers for both, but it didn't matter at the time. There was no plot, no inner turmoil, just a bunch of D&D characters out to fight a lich.

Then Elan finds out his dad is an evil warlord in #50, but even then, it was intended simply to explain the differences between Nale and Elan. I suppose I could have made Elan's father the happy-go-lucky waiter and his mother the warlord, but that didn't feel right. Not so much because of Elan, but because of Nale. Nale has the sort of damaged ego that would force him to try to surpass his father at all costs, which of course would fail and thus lead to his presence in the dungeon. If Nale had been raise by an evil mother, I think he would have been more of a "corrupt prince" sort of character rather than an angry rebel looking for a magic doodad to go back and seize power. In this case, plot dictated characterization.

I didn't get the idea that Tarquin would ever appear on camera until much later, when we saw Haley's ransom note in #131. At that point, it needed to be Haley's father that was imprisoned simply because if it were anyone else in her family, her thief father would be the one trying to save them instead. In fact, that was the case for all three sets of parents: if both were active and present, then it would have been their spouse dealing with their issues rather than the child. Since it's the child's story, the spouse must be absent or otherwise incapable of acting.

All other examples are apophenia. Redcloak's parents are irrelevant to the story; his father could have been a saint for all we know, but he wasn't killed by the Sapphire Guard. Kubota and Therkla had a teacher/student relationship; she was raised by her loving parents. Shojo did not raise Hinjo from childhood, so the relationship was never truly parental. I guess a case could be made for Miko, but I see that as more of a "bad child" situation than a bad father one. Miko was Miko long before Shojo started lying to her; his ruse started only a few years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) but Miko was 28 when he said that.

So, I'm afraid that any connection is simply an emergent property of the fact that I started the comic without any sort of plan for where it would go. That doesn't mean that you can't analyze it if you want though, if you're a "Death of the Author" sort of critic. Just please don't speculate on my family life in the process.

[Ruck]

I'm betting against Rich writing to cheap gender stereotypes (anymore).

[Darth Paul]

I'm betting against Rich writing to cheap gender stereotypes (anymore).

Indeed.

Moreover, the mere fact that 3 of the fathers we've seen have had issues (putting it mildly) doesn't mean every father figure is a terrible father, or, conversely, that every awful parent is going to be a father.

Daigo, for example, seems to be filling the role admirably, for the little we've seen of him (and from what I remember of Good Deeds Gone Unpunished)... so right there we have a counter-example of a good father.

[Synesthesy]

And we must remember that against an evil father figure, the best thing to do is to look for a good father figure!

[Precure]

Only seen that way because "Absent parent = woman" was a thing.

[mjasghar]

Counter counterpoint
Rich says he didn’t know why he chose father’s in those 2 cases
And earlier said he wished it had been to highlight bad fathers
So conjecture - unconsciously he was biased

[hroþila]

Controversial opinion: "crappy parent = man" is not a statistically unfair generalization.

[NerdyKris]

Where did she think all that great fertilizer came from how dare she tell to quit killing men who slap her bottom. (Possibly Anel's father as well)

What on earth are you talking about.

[InvisibleBison]

V is Male due to horrible parenting.

Please provide evidence that V is a bad parent.

[NerdyKris]

Uh, Vaarsuvius abandoned their family and then, when given the choice between power and family chose power and didn't actually accomplish anything with it? (or at least nothing that couldn't have been done without the power)

Also now that I think about it, where did this idea that Roy, Haley, and Elan's mothers are saints come from?
We literally know nothing about Haley's mother other than that she's dead. She could have been a terrible parent for all we know.
All we know about Elan's mother is that she was okay marrying Tarquin. That doesn't scream "saintly", it screams "makes terrible life choices". And she abandoned one son with Tarquin and hid Nale's existence from Elan. Abandoning one child while keeping the other is the opposite of a good parent.
Roy's mother isn't great either. Compared to Eugene, sure, but she still continued having children with him after getting pregnant by accident, and left them in his care despite knowing he wasn't capable of watching them, resulting in a dead baby.

I'm not saying they're just as bad, but let's not pretend they're perfect.

[factotum]

Uh, Vaarsuvius abandoned their family and then, when given the choice between power and family chose power and didn't actually accomplish anything with it? (or at least nothing that couldn't have been done without the power)

He wasn't actually given that choice? He was given the choice of gaining ultimate arcane power and rescuing his family with it, or else sending a message to his old master and asking him to rescue his family instead. Either way, the choice involved rescuing his family. Yes, there were no doubt other ways V could have gone about things, but to categorise him as choosing power over family when his very first action with his new power was to rescue his family from the ABD is simply not borne out by the facts.

[NerdyKris]

I meant after the ABD was defeated, when told to give up the power now that the threat was gone, Vaarsuvius chose to continue wielding it.

[Darth Paul]

We literally know nothing about Haley's mother other than that she's dead. She could have been a terrible parent for all we know.

All we know about Elan's mother is that she was okay marrying Tarquin. That doesn't scream "saintly", it screams "makes terrible life choices". And she abandoned one son with Tarquin and hid Nale's existence from Elan. Abandoning one child while keeping the other is the opposite of a good parent.

Roy's mother isn't great either. Compared to Eugene, sure, but she still continued having children with him after getting pregnant by accident, and left them in his care despite knowing he wasn't capable of watching them, resulting in a dead baby.


In the only glimpse we have of Haley's mother, her death, she tells Haley and Ian, "Be better than this place" (Greysky City). From this, I think we're meant to infer that she was the moral center of the family, and after her death, Ian became more paranoid and distrustful of everyone except his family, especially Haley. It may be a stretch to infer all this from one speech and their subsequent characters, but they obviously are saddened over her death in the scene, which one wouldn't associate with a bad parent.

We've seen Tarquin's methods of persuading a fiancee (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html), so the fact that Elan's mom married him may not say as much about her as you think. That she was able to get out of the marriage alive, and take a son with her, may speak for considerable strength of character. As for hiding Nale's existence- she knew as well as anyone that when there are identical twins, and one is the son of an evil overlord, they're bound to come into conflict eventually, so she may have been trying to protect Elan from this by preventing him from running off to an early confrontation.

Blaming Sarah for Eric's death is- unique. That's saying that a mother should keep her child with her 24/7 and not trust the father alone with his child one moment. Eugene was absent-minded- a lot of dads are. His tendencies likely didn't manifest as dangerous until the accident, or he assured her (she wasn't a wizard, after all) that it was perfectly safe- and we want to trust our spouses, after all. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Heavenblade]

What on earth are you talking about.

Qouting tarquin qouting Elan's mom complaining about his evil actions

[a_flemish_guy]

I meant after the ABD was defeated, when told to give up the power now that the threat was gone, Vaarsuvius chose to continue wielding it.

to be fair on V while the original goal of the transformation had been accomplished there was still the possibility of using the remaining power to eliminate xykon

at that moment V still only had respect of the arcane arts, only that could defeat xykon, not roy's blade, not durkon's faith, just raw arcane power could seal the deal
and thus V had to choose between family and the world and while a large amount of pride would be involved (after all V thought that only (s)he could save the world) he still chose to put what (s)he had to do over what (s)he wanted to do

edit: to make a long story short: without xykon or any other great threat to deal with I think V would have given up the power

[SlashDash]

Excuse me, but we've seen a couple of very decent fathers.

Durkon's Pa seemed like an extremely noble person who was willing to sacrifice himself to save his entire clan.

[BaronOfHell]

Does this mean V is a Human in stead of an Elf?


Only seen that way because "Absent parent = woman" was a thing.

So V is actually a women as well?

[hroþila]

to be fair on V while the original goal of the transformation had been accomplished there was still the possibility of using the remaining power to eliminate xykon

at that moment V still only had respect of the arcane arts, only that could defeat xykon, not roy's blade, not durkon's faith, just raw arcane power could seal the deal
and thus V had to choose between family and the world and while a large amount of pride would be involved (after all V thought that only (s)he could save the world) he still chose to put what (s)he had to do over what (s)he wanted to do

edit: to make a long story short: without xykon or any other great threat to deal with I think V would have given up the power
I think you're completely misreading V's motives to hold onto the soul splice AND to fight Xykon. It wasn't about saving the world, it was about solving every problem and defeating Xykon personally. V didn't put what they had to do over what they wanted to do - they simply did what they wanted to do, paying no heed to what their loved ones wanted.

[factotum]

There is a slight problem V would have had if he'd followed Inkyrius' demand he give up the power, though--he can't teleport himself, so he'd be stuck in the middle of Elven lands, thousands of miles from the rest of the party. He would also have been unable to teleport the party over to the Azurite remnants in #649, so their arrival on the Western Continent to chase Xykon would have been significantly later than it was. Given that, we ought to be rather thankful he made the decision he did.

[Precure]

So V is actually a women as well?

Either that or a twist like Durkon's parents.

[NontheistCleric]

I think you're completely misreading V's motives to hold onto the soul splice AND to fight Xykon. It wasn't about saving the world, it was about solving every problem and defeating Xykon personally. V didn't put what they had to do over what they wanted to do - they simply did what they wanted to do, paying no heed to what their loved ones wanted.

It's not as black and white as all that. Yes, V probably was a little drunk on the arcane power at the time, but it can't be denied that there were problems that really did need fixing, like the Azurites needing to be somewhere where they could survive, Haley needing to be found (or at least, so V thought) and the horrifically evil undead sorcerer Xykon needing to be vanquished.

At the time, V believed that they had the power to accomplish those things, and although part of that decision was likely the opportunity to once again exercise ultimate arcane power, part of it was probably also the fact that those things needed doing, and as the one with the power to do them, it would frankly have been irresponsible for V to drop all of that, things that literally concerned the fate and welfare of nations and the world, just to keep their family together.

Look at V's expression in the pages where this happened. Do you truly think V wanted to leave a family that, for all their inadequacies, they probably loved more than anything else in the world? Yes, a competing want won out over the want to stay with their family, but it would be impossible to say that that competing want was not helped tremendously by the fact that in a very real way, V did have to do all the things that they tried to do at that time, much more than they had to stay.

What was it again? 'All that is required for Evil to triumph is for Neutral elves to do nothing.'

Say what you like, but at least in that scenario, V didn't do nothing. Even Durkon, later on, admits it, and although it doesn't mean that what V did was all good (far from it), he had a point.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Your argument would hold together better if V had taken the 6 seconds needed to cast limited wish to rebuild the house. V really didn't show any devotion to V's family, just to making sure that they were seen as too powerful to mess with. See also the attack on Xykon.

[factotum]

But your argument has less weight because attacking Xykon was not V's first instinct after leaving his family, reuniting the party was. Also, how do you know he could cast Limited Wish? He'd lost Haerta at that point so he only had the spells available to the other two splices, one of whom is a wizard and might not have prepared the spell and one who is a sorcerer who simply might not know it. (AFAIK V himself was too low a level to know the spell at that point).

[Emanick]

I think you're completely misreading V's motives to hold onto the soul splice AND to fight Xykon. It wasn't about saving the world, it was about solving every problem and defeating Xykon personally. V didn't put what they had to do over what they wanted to do - they simply did what they wanted to do, paying no heed to what their loved ones wanted.

I agree with factotum and NontheistCleric (although I guess I'm not sure V "loved [hir family] more than anything else in the world"). V was certainly expressing far less empathy and love than s/he should have, yes. And the desire to fight Xykon was absolutely about pride and being drunk with power as much as it was about being genuinely pragmatic. But I don't believe that V actually preferred holding on to the soul splice over staying with hir family at that point. S/he is clearly enormously stressed about every single moment that hir soul remains indebted to the fiends, and clearly wants to absolutely minimize the size of hir debt to them. Without a very, very compelling reason indeed, I very much doubt that s/he would have held on to the soul splice one round longer than necessary to protect hir family and punish the dragon.

Also, I don't buy that it wasn't about saving the world at all. V isn't a psychopath like Belkar; s/he doesn't kill unprovoked (I say "unprovoked" because Familicide was about a wildly disproportionate response to an actual threat, not the sort of random massacre that, say, Xykon might have begun. I say this to clarify the specific motivation for Familicide, not to say that this makes it any better, morally speaking). V is all about overcoming obstacles through the application of arcane power - if Xykon wasn't an obstacle in the sense of being a threat, V wouldn't have wanted to kill him.

Basically, I don't see the idea that "it was about saving the world" and "it was about solving every problem and defeating Xykon personally" as in tension with one another. My read on someone like V is that s/he has both pragmatic instincts and personal desires, and hir instinct is to try to satisfy the latter by following the former. Maybe I'm projecting a bit, because that's similar to how I tend to operate, but that's my take on hir character, anyway.

[NontheistCleric]

Your argument would hold together better if V had taken the 6 seconds needed to cast limited wish to rebuild the house. V really didn't show any devotion to V's family, just to making sure that they were seen as too powerful to mess with. See also the attack on Xykon.

You mean apart from saving their family from certain death? Because I think that could reasonably be construed as some level of devotion.

[goodpeople25]

But your argument has less weight because attacking Xykon was not V's first instinct after leaving his family, reuniting the party was. Also, how do you know he could cast Limited Wish? He'd lost Haerta at that point so he only had the spells available to the other two splices, one of whom is a wizard and might not have prepared the spell and one who is a sorcerer who simply might not know it. (AFAIK V himself was too low a level to know the spell at that point).
IIRC you don't need to be able to cast a spell to copy it to your spell book (and V can cast lvl 7 spells at this point anyhow) however we don't know if V learned it. But I don't think the exact spell/method really matters for the argument.

Also taking their word at face value seems rather iffy in this context and I'm not sure what them not immediately going off to attack Xykon has to do with the argument in question.

[Starla]

I remember when the comic began and I went to read the forum threads from the beginning. V's ambiguity began with two thread comments bringing the question up. One assumed male and the other assumed female and Rich decided it was fun to keep us guessing. :D

In Rich's comment quoted earlier he said one had to be the stable parent. Stable doesn't mean better. Stable means they showed up for the child but they still had their own quirks and flaws as shown by Nale getting his desire to create unnecessarily complicated plans from his mother's side.

When I re-read the story-line with V getting arcane power, I saw it as a major flaw being revealed, namely, pride (Dun-dun-DUN). V became obsessed with magic solving the problem but Rich also reveals that V is suffering PTSD from the war experience. This is why V refuses to meditate or rest in the usual Elven way. If s/he rested s/he would re-live the trauma of watching other people suffer and magic failing to be "enough" to save them. V clearly has spent no time or energy in any other devotion as much as magic. So magic failing was the biggest hit to V's pride. V was trying to prove that magic would succeed to cure the PTSD. It was all about punching V's buttons when the temptation showed up and promised that V could succeed another way but to point out that if s/he chose the alternative route (suicide and sending head with a note) it meant that V's magic was not powerful enough again.

V is not a crappy parent because of that moment with the family. V also refused to let go of the magic again because of pride and the desire to continue solving all the dilemmas that had been blocking V from progress to that point. Hence, moving the fleet, and defeating Xykon. V was clearly angry when denied the chance to reunite the group with magic. It was another punch to V's pride, hence the desire to prove that magic was better and going on to eliminate Xykon.

V was revealed to be self-centered again when Rich showed a memory that clearly V wanted to use quiet time without the kids to eat alone and study more magic. Blackwing pointed out that V's sincere apology to himself probably would have helped for the marriage when V got served the divorce papers. V chose to sign the papers not because V was a bad parent but because V started recognizing this flaw of Pride and what priorities were getting in the way of family life. I fully believe that V is making good progress in the story on changing and becoming more humble and will be able to decide what kind of parent to be to in future.

I also believe that Rich will probably never reveal V's gender to us because it is too much fun to keep us guessing. :D

[KillianHawkeye]

Evidence that some men in the story have been bad parents does not prove that any other bad parent that exists must be a man. That is some seriously faulty logic. :smallannoyed:

[KorvinStarmast]

The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12240501&postcount=36)

(Haley, whose stable parent died early, is also the most screwed-up, psychologically.) Therefore, the first parent who was given definition in the story became the one that would be more prominent, and thus the one that caused conflict. Which leads us to... If Haley is more screwed up psychologically than the psychotic murderer named Belkar (whose parents we never even hear of, and who refers only to a grandmother and an Aunt Ruby), then I am not sure what the term "screwed up psychologically" is intended to mean here.

All Haley manifests is a slightly advanced case of drama-queen-itis that was amplified for narrative effect during Book 2 via the loss of her ability to speak.

V is, for m y money, in the running for psychologically screwed up, in terms of having a serious case of tunnel vision, obsession with power, and a distinct lack of empathy (for the first four and a half books ... ).

[Emanick]

If Haley is more screwed up psychologically than the psychotic murderer named Belkar (whose parents we never even hear of, and who refers only to a grandmother and an Aunt Ruby), then I am not sure what the term "screwed up psychologically" is intended to mean here.

All Haley manifests is a slightly advanced case of drama-queen-itis that was amplified for narrative effect during Book 2 via the loss of her ability to speak.

V is, for m y money, in the running for psychologically screwed up, in terms of having a serious case of tunnel vision, obsession with power, and a distinct lack of empathy (for the first four and a half books ... ).

I’m pretty sure The Giant meant that Haley was the most screwed up out of the three human party members - the ones who had defined parental relationships - if you read the full context of the quote.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, it's Aunt Judy, likely a reference to Judy Garland in her role as Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz.

[Quizatzhaderac]

If I was to read anything into Rich's choices it would be "Father = plot active parent", which is maybe something Rich would avoid doing no, but (as the quote shows) Eugene, Ian, and Tarquin were all conceived during early days. The same early days where Rich smurfetted the main party.

Apart from the androgynous V, I can't think of any other examples of anyone having one bad parent. Plenty of people have two good parents (i.e. the Katos), one case of two bad parents (O'Chul).

In my head-cannon Shojo counts, but if I have to tell a story it doesn't countShojo is explicitly Miko's adoptive father (GDGU). My headcannon is that he treated this as a legal fiction, and basically treated her as a vassal. This would be fine if she was an adult (she was a teenager as of HtPghS), had a family, or was mentally stable.

From what little I can tell, Shojo mostly just fed and equipped her and sent her off into warzones and did almost nothing for her that he wouldn't do for a warhorse. She should have been with Shinjo and Hinjo for New Year's eve dinner instead of spending it alone.

I get that what was going on wasn't quite a "real" adoption, but whatever it is you're taking special responsibility for this person's life.

[Aidan]

If I was to read anything into Rich's choices it would be "Father = plot active parent", which is maybe something Rich would avoid doing no, but (as the quote shows) Eugene, Ian, and Tarquin were all conceived during early days. The same early days where Rich smurfetted the main party.

Apart from the androgynous V, I can't think of any other examples of anyone having one bad parent. Plenty of people have two good parents (i.e. the Katos), one case of two bad parents (O'Chul).

In my head-cannon Shojo counts, but if I have to tell a story it doesn't countShojo is explicitly Miko's adoptive father (GDGU). My headcannon is that he treated this as a legal fiction, and basically treated her as a vassal. This would be fine if she was an adult (she was a teenager as of HtPghS), had a family, or was mentally stable.

From what little I can tell, Shojo mostly just fed and equipped her and sent her off into warzones and did almost nothing for her that he wouldn't do for a warhorse. She should have been with Shinjo and Hinjo for New Year's eve dinner instead of spending it alone.

I get that what was going on wasn't quite a "real" adoption, but whatever it is you're taking special responsibility for this person's life.

With regards to the spoilered section
Between faking senility and concerning himself with the affairs of Azure City, I don't think that he consciously neglected Miko. We know from bonus strips in War and XP, that Shojo hid his sanity from Hinjo and encouraged him to not concern himself with spending time with him (Shojo). My head-canon is that Shojo didn't realize how unstable Miko was, and how he should have paid more attention to her until she sliced him open.

P. S.
I think you meant to say head-canon as opposed to head-cannon. Those are two very different things

[hamishspence]

In my head-cannon Shojo counts, but if I have to tell a story it doesn't countShojo is explicitly Miko's adoptive father (GDGU). My headcannon is that he treated this as a legal fiction, and basically treated her as a vassal. This would be fine if she was an adult (she was a teenager as of HtPghS), had a family, or was mentally stable.

From what little I can tell, Shojo mostly just fed and equipped her and sent her off into warzones and did almost nothing for her that he wouldn't do for a warhorse. She should have been with Shinjo and Hinjo for New Year's eve dinner instead of spending it alone.

I get that what was going on wasn't quite a "real" adoption, but whatever it is you're taking special responsibility for this person's life.

The Giant on the subject of Miko's adoption:


First, this is not that complicated:

Miko is not legally Shojo's daughter, but he did "adopt" her in the sense of taking her under his wing and mentoring her. As was mentioned in the main comic, she was only 13 at the time, so she would have been living under his roof rather than being on her own. As a result, both Miko and Hinjo were told to think of each other as cousins. As adults, they no longer see each other in that light, because they are not actually cousins and Miko's general behavior in the interim has already brought strain to that relationship. I'm sure they had a big falling out at some point, but that's not what the story was about so I didn't show it. And to be clear, I don't feel like I need to spell this out in the text just so that everyone can feel like all the dots connect.


The Giant on Shojo's raising of Miko


If anything, I attribute most of her positive traits to the way she was raised by Shojo and her subsequent membership in the Sapphire Guard. Which is not to say that he did a perfect job, but he recognized that she needed discipline in order to function, and gave her life meaning and purpose that it wouldn't have otherwise had. I've always felt that someone who had come to him with less underlying issues (whether due to her inherent personality or the trauma of losing her parents and getting sent to a monastery) could have been raised the same way and not turned out to be like Miko. Likewise, if Miko had never met Shojo, she probably would have left the monastery as an angry unstable loner with no purpose. Shojo's guidance was the tape that was held her together for so long, which is why she went to pieces when it was ripped off.

[Themrys]

I'm betting against Rich writing to cheap gender stereotypes (anymore).

That would mean V was originally intended to be male, but then turned retroactively female when Rich decided to not write cheap gender stereotypes anymore and showed V being a crappy parent.


My theory on V's sex has always been that Rich likely intended V to be male, but that I would like V to be female for various reasons.

(Though I have to say, the sexual harrassment by Belkar makes me less uncomfortable when I imagine V as male. On the other hand, male readers are probably more comfortable with imagining V as female in that particular situation. The fact that V did not murder Belkar in retribution might hint at V being male - after all, if V is female, and we know that Belkar is heterosexual and has a habit of molesting women, it would have been safer to get rid of Belkar. The "Belkar's proto-brain just got confused" theory is more likely to have been thought up by a male. Although it is possible that a woman who grew up in an environment free of sexual harrassment - an idyllic elf village, for example - would not view Belkar as ongoing threat ...)


Regarding Shojos quality as adoptive parent ... he may have given her purpose, and she might have turned out worse without him, but I find it really hard to imagine that he treated her like modern adoption agencies would expect adoptive parents to treat their adopted children.

Her trying to be the hyper-correct paladin comes across as attention-seeking and wanting social approval. While it is not the job of those surrounding her to fix those issues, you would expect an adoptive parent to fix them. Nowadays, at least.

[Peelee]

That would mean V was originally intended to be male, but then turned retroactively female when Rich decided to not write cheap gender stereotypes anymore and showed V being a crappy parent.


My theory on V's sex has always been that Rich likely intended V to be male, but that I would like V to be female for various reasons.

(Though I have to say, the sexual harrassment by Belkar makes me less uncomfortable when I imagine V as male. On the other hand, male readers are probably more comfortable with imagining V as female in that particular situation. The fact that V did not murder Belkar in retribution might hint at V being male - after all, if V is female, and we know that Belkar is heterosexual and has a habit of molesting women, it would have been safer to get rid of Belkar. The "Belkar's proto-brain just got confused" theory is more likely to have been thought up by a male. Although it is possible that a woman who grew up in an environment free of sexual harrassment - an idyllic elf village, for example - would not view Belkar as ongoing threat ...)

I feel compelled to point out that there are options other than "male" and "female."

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think you meant to say head-canon as opposed to head-cannon. Those are two very different thingsNope (https://xkcd.com/1401/). Like Miko, I never go back on what I said, no matter how insane.
The Giant on Shojo's raising of MikoThat's not too far outside of my own suppositions. Although maybe I should say "mediocre" instead of "crappy". It's not particularly high bar to be a better parent than absolutely no parent at all. After providing her with food, shelter and enough discipline/structure that she's not actively violent, a father should have been concerned with her complete inability to sympathize or form personal relationships. Also being chaotic, Shojo should have seen doing the right thing only "because it's the rules" as insufficient.

[Themrys]

I feel compelled to point out that there are options other than "male" and "female."

In terms of sex, anyone not being clearly female or male is extremely rare. Rich Burlew having intended to write the character as anything but clearly male or female before he even became aware of the problem with a single token female character is extremely unlikely.

And in terms of gender, V has made it clear on several occasions that V does not have or need a gender identity, and does not even see gender markers in other people. (Roy wearing a mop on his head was clearly recognized by V as Roy wearing a mop on his head, but not recognized as Roy wanting to be read as feminine gendered.)

[Peelee]

In terms of sex, anyone not being clearly female or male is extremely rare.

Rarer than being an elf?:smalltongue:

[Ruck]

That would mean V was originally intended to be male, but then turned retroactively female when Rich decided to not write cheap gender stereotypes anymore and showed V being a crappy parent.
No, it doesn't.

[Themrys]

No, it doesn't.

So what do you propose then?

Do you claim that V has been intended to be female from the start?

I can't disprove that. I just find it very unlikely.

[Peelee]

So what do you propose then?

Shot in the dark, but I'd guess Ruck is proposing there are more than two options.

[CriticalFailure]

That would mean V was originally intended to be male, but then turned retroactively female when Rich decided to not write cheap gender stereotypes anymore and showed V being a crappy parent.


My theory on V's sex has always been that Rich likely intended V to be male, but that I would like V to be female for various reasons.

(Though I have to say, the sexual harrassment by Belkar makes me less uncomfortable when I imagine V as male. On the other hand, male readers are probably more comfortable with imagining V as female in that particular situation. The fact that V did not murder Belkar in retribution might hint at V being male - after all, if V is female, and we know that Belkar is heterosexual and has a habit of molesting women, it would have been safer to get rid of Belkar. The "Belkar's proto-brain just got confused" theory is more likely to have been thought up by a male. Although it is possible that a woman who grew up in an environment free of sexual harrassment - an idyllic elf village, for example - would not view Belkar as ongoing threat ...)


Regarding Shojos quality as adoptive parent ... he may have given her purpose, and she might have turned out worse without him, but I find it really hard to imagine that he treated her like modern adoption agencies would expect adoptive parents to treat their adopted children.

Her trying to be the hyper-correct paladin comes across as attention-seeking and wanting social approval. While it is not the job of those surrounding her to fix those issues, you would expect an adoptive parent to fix them. Nowadays, at least.

I think you're spot on with this, especially given Lirian's character design versus elves that were introduced later. I would be very surprised if V was not originally designed to be male. I also like to imagine V as female though.

I also agree about Miko, it doesn't really come across that giving her a purpose did her any favors in the long run because she seemed like she saw being a hypercorrect and scrupulous paladin as the only way in which she could have value to anyone.

[Themrys]

I also agree about Miko, it doesn't really come across that giving her a purpose did her any favors in the long run because she seemed like she saw being a hypercorrect and scrupulous paladin as the only way in which she could have value to anyone.

I suppose it is better than her seeing no way at all to have value to anyone, and at least she didn't become a criminal but just an annoying person, but that's a rather low bar. She clearly wasn't happy.

In fact, her attitude to happiness seems rather like the one Durkon demanded Hilgya have: "Do your duty, especially when it makes you unhappy".

(That could even have been what made her murder the one person who possibly cared about her a bit - it clearly didn't make her happy, and she didn't expect it would, but saw it as her duty.)

A good parent would have gotten her therapy. (Therapists usually don't exist in fantasy worlds, but OotS-verse has lawyers, so ...)

The relationship Shojo-Miko seems to have been rather like the Dumbledore-Harry one in Harry Potter - a distant mentor figure who is admired and loved by the younger person, but is not really approachable ... and never tells the younger person his secrets.

[Riftwolf]

In fact, her attitude to happiness seems rather like the one Durkon demanded Hilgya have: "Do your duty, especially when it makes you unhappy".

Durkon's philosophy in the early comics seems to have evolved a little. Now we've seen a but more of dwarven culture, the lesson his mother was trying to give was 'happiness through selflessness' rather than 'duty over happiness'. It could've been a retcon after the Giant had more time to think about it, or it could be a genuine misunderstanding on Durkon's part about what dwarfhood means, or a skewed rationale to cope with his exile. I'd like to think that it's all three at once.

As for Mikos philosophy, I don't think she even considered happiness, ever, in any circumstances.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Miko doesn't seem to consider anybody's emotional well-being.

[Themrys]

Durkon's philosophy in the early comics seems to have evolved a little. Now we've seen a but more of dwarven culture, the lesson his mother was trying to give was 'happiness through selflessness' rather than 'duty over happiness'. It could've been a retcon after the Giant had more time to think about it, or it could be a genuine misunderstanding on Durkon's part about what dwarfhood means, or a skewed rationale to cope with his exile. I'd like to think that it's all three at once.


It doesn't really matter what Durkon thinks now. My point was that Miko's attitude seems to be that fun is, at best, suspicious and suffering is virtue. Which is pretty close to what Durkon said to Hilgya back then.

In Durkon, it seems to be based on his exile, and exile is the only thing he (somewhat) voluntarily suffers - we see him have fun plenty times otherwise, but most blatantly when he temporarily gets made bandit leader. His mother voluntarily suffering might have reinforced the attitude that suffering was the dwarf thing to do, but he clearly hasn't internalized it to pathological levels. His exile was a legal affair, not something he did to himself.

Miko, on the other hand, voluntarily suffers a lot more, and shows clear signs of having internalized the attitude - see the scene where she wants to make camp in the wilderness rather than staying at a hotel.

So while I wouldn't say Durkon's mother was a bad parent, I would say that Shojo could have dealt with Miko's issues much better than he did.

(Sending her on missions that took her far away from anyone else was a way to manage her like Roy manages Belkar, not exactly how you act towards people you love.)


Miko clearly has some idea of what happiness is. She seemed happy when Roy apologized to her, and she seemed to have a lot more emotional relationship to her horse than Vaarsuvius had with Blackwing in the early comics.

Windstriker was probably the only being who unconditionally loved her. Pretty sad to think about.


Back to topic; Vaarsuvius being (retconned to be) female would fit in with Rich's newer trend of showing that women can be emotionally stunted, too.

V being male would be pretty cliche, as that would make V pretty much the same as Roy's dad.

[Vinyadan]

I also don't think Miko was really adopted by Shojo. As far as I can remember, she never calls him father, and he never calls her daughter. She probably was first raised in the monastery, also without a father, also in a strongly disciplined lawful setting. Then she was ripped out of her dojo around 13 and brought to the castle. There she got a pep talk from Shojo, whom she started to revere, but her education mostly consisted of being passed around among a number of military instructors.

When we see her the first time, she is almost mute, takes everything literally, and she is only performs violent acts. She is 16, and has spent three years in the guard. When she finally talks with O-Chul (after he has joined the Guard), she is as blunt as can be, and refers to "means at our disposal", which, in her case, will turn out to be violence.

Maybe monks are more-or-less like that, but that isn't a problem because they don't leave the monastery. Or maybe the problem was mixing up monkish discipline with the paladin code in a child that didn't have any parental figure to complement and nuance what she was taught by instructors. As she becomes more intolerable and avoided, she is increasingly isolated, which probably made a number on her mental health. As she becomes a troublemaker, Shojo starts sending her away, something in which she probably takes pride, but also deprives her even more of the chance of being part of a community.

[Ruck]

Shot in the dark, but I'd guess Ruck is proposing there are more than two options.

Yes; I would have said more but I think you covered all the other relevant points already.

[a_flemish_guy]

Durkon's philosophy in the early comics seems to have evolved a little. Now we've seen a but more of dwarven culture, the lesson his mother was trying to give was 'happiness through selflessness' rather than 'duty over happiness'. It could've been a retcon after the Giant had more time to think about it, or it could be a genuine misunderstanding on Durkon's part about what dwarfhood means, or a skewed rationale to cope with his exile. I'd like to think that it's all three at once.

As for Mikos philosophy, I don't think she even considered happiness, ever, in any circumstances.

I'm not sure if it's a retcon or not but to me the lesson seems to be: "objectively good parents can still teach their children wrong lessons through their subjective life experiences"

at the end durkon is right and his mother is wrong, his pa is in valhalla and wether or not she continued to hold his hand has no real tangible benefit to him, it's entiarly a her thing, I'm not a fan of armchair psychology but I'm willing to bet that durkon's mom suffers from survivor's guilt, like the arm is penance for surviving the

also as for miko: I think she viewed happiness like roy viewed sleep in the beginning, it's a nice thing to have but if somebody has to give it up then it might as well be them, after all they're the only ones who can give it up the correct way

[pearl jam]

Shot in the dark, but I'd guess Ruck is proposing there are more than two options.


Yes; I would have said more but I think you covered all the other relevant points already.

Be that as it may, while it certainly is relevant for characterizations at this point in the development of OOTs, while not guaranteed to be the case, it's certainly not an unreasonable guess, in my opinion, based on Rich's own comments about how he has become more consciously inclusive as he transitioned from one off jokes to a cohesive story with messages intentionally conveyed therein, that his original conception for the main party members likely involved a choice of on of those 2 options for each one.

Personally, before ever visiting the forums, I don't recall how long the gap between first reading the comic and first visiting the forum was, I read V as male and that remains my personal interpretation of the character.

[Schroeswald]

I personally originally read V as female, I believe it was the hair that gave me the impression, which was then reinforced when V got the ponytail.

[Peelee]

Be that as it may, while it certainly is relevant for characterizations at this point in the development of OOTs, while not guaranteed to be the case, it's certainly not an unreasonable guess, in my opinion, based on Rich's own comments about how he has become more consciously inclusive as he transitioned from one off jokes to a cohesive story with messages intentionally conveyed therein, that his original conception for the main party members likely involved a choice of on of those 2 options for each one.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. The original assertion had two parts: A, but now B. I agree with A. I do not agree with "but now B," because that ignores the rest of the alphabet.

[deuterio12]

I got two counterpoints to the OP:

1-Loki's mother.

2-Hel's mother.

We know that gods conveniently follow normal reproduction thanks to Thor having knocked up the goddess of fertility (and then the mighty and righteous Thor left the goddess of fertility to raise the child on their own, but that's a story for another day). So Loki and Hel must have mothers somewhere since they also have divine fathers.

Now Odin is the father of Loki (that with Loki being Thor's bro and Odin's son), and although Odin's kinda senile, he's at least there for his children, which is an auto-win over Loki's mother who never even bother to show up her face during all the god conspiracies, like when her son is screwing over whole mortal races with bets.

And Loki's a father himself, and for all his lies and scheming at least he's still present for Hel and making an effort to give some education to his daughter. Not Hel's mother though. Whoever that goddess is, she just doesn't give a single damn while Hel starves herself to death while trying to destroy the world.

[DaOldeWolf]

Miko and familicide mentions? I have come to the right place. :smallbiggrin: Now we just need alignment to play a big part....

As for my opinion on the subject at hand, its a coincidence. Not everything that happens in the comic has to have a deep and pre-planned reason for existing. Sometimes bad dads exist. Real life has them too.

Parenting is one of the hardest things to do in life and there is no recipe for success. Even people with experience can end up screwing up later. I would argue that Tarquin is truly the only awful parental figures.

Yes, Haley´s father isnt the best listener and he gave his daughter bad advice for life but he truly cared for her. He didnt make those choices because he wanted to see her suffer. And at the end, he accepted her choice even if she didnt agree with him and even encouraged her to follow her resolve. It can be assumed that he got his point of view from his experiences and considering the hell hole they were living in, I have no doubts that he lived as long as he had because of it.

Eugene is a pretty jaded parental figure. The fact that they pampered Roy´s younger sister till she was rotten, meant that they have to feel guilt about the whole situation. Its also difficult for a parent to admit that they played a role in their child´s death. And there is also the fact that there seems to be a pattern of abuse from parental figures in Roy´s family so expecting him to be great, doesnt really hold water. I am not saying with all of these that he couldnt be a better father figure but that isnt far from what a person in his circumstances would be if they became a father. I also think he deserves a few points for paying for Roy´s school even if he didnt agree with the whole thing.

As for Tarquin, I got nothing. Seeing his own kids as objects isnt exactly heartwarming and I dont care about his "acts of affection". Parental figures arent born of niceties, they are born of taking care of their children as best as they could. I would even call his treatment pretty disturbing and psycopathic.

[Ruck]

there is also the fact that there seems to be a pattern of abuse from parental figures in Roy´s family

The *fact*?

[DaOldeWolf]

The *fact*?

Sorry, in my opinion, there seems to be.....

[Aidan]

Nope (https://xkcd.com/1401/). Like Miko, I never go back on what I said, no matter how insane.

I was so close to linking that exact comic :smallbiggrin:

[Riftwolf]

I've been reading V as gender-neutral for a long time, and trying to find rationales for whether they're male/female feels like an argument from ten years ago (especially when the logic is as flawed and opinionated as 'V is male because all men in the comic are bad parents and V is a bad parent')

[Themrys]

And Loki's a father himself, and for all his lies and scheming at least he's still present for Hel and making an effort to give some education to his daughter. Not Hel's mother though. Whoever that goddess is, she just doesn't give a single damn while Hel starves herself to death while trying to destroy the world.

Perhaps she is dead. Have you considered that?

{scrubbed}


Besides, this is Loki we are talking about. Trickster and shapeshifter. For all we know, Hel could have been fathered by Thor and Loki could be the mother.

That would explain why he is such an involved parent. :smalltongue:

However, he isn't exactly parent of the year. Remember, that bet that lead to her unbalanced diet? That was Loki's idea. Perhaps she wasn't a nice person before, but he sure messed her up.


*scrubbed*

[CriticalFailure]

Assuming that Gods reproduce like mortals seems unrealistic. There's no reason to assume that.

Arguing about whether V is male or female seems pointless because the FAQ states it will never be revealed, but discussing how different people view her can still be interesting I guess. It's interesting why different people imagine V differently, at least I find it interesting.

As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling. He may have been a close and beloved mentor but it seems pretty clear that their relationship was always one of a lord and his warrior vassal, in which Miko's martial capabilities were always the thing about her that was most important and the reason she was there in the first place.

[Peelee]

As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling.

Well, she was teenaged (likely mid-late teenage). Still a child, yes, but a bit more context there.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So what do you propose then?

Do you claim that V has been intended to be female from the start? .Speaking about intentions, V was originally (in the single digit pages) intended to be male. But soon after the intention became (and remained) unknowable sex. There is almost certain one known unambigous sex from Inkyrius's perspective, but from the audience's perspective V's genitals are an unknowable undefinable mystery.

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform gender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.


1-Loki's mother.

2-Hel's mother.Frigg is almost certainly Loki's mother in OOTS. Hel's mother likely isn't a member of the northern pantheon. Although she might be some kind of minor less than demi-goddess that survives the world's changes. Or she may have been a goddess that didn't make it with one of the world changes.

At any rate, the gods are tertiary characters and stuff has to be left out. Additionally the gods aren't children (they might not have ever even been children) and they have special reasons to be screwed up that no amount of parenting can fix.
As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling.Depending on how historical you want to be, that might be very conventional. Not starting military training before 18 would seem like not teaching a person to read until 18 and then expecting them to become a scholar would to us.

Although I imagine Miko as something of a special needs child, in that she had more pressing needs than a career, as was not suited for a life of violence.

[Themrys]

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform ender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.

I think you mean the other way round: Saying that V must be male because V is a crappy parent is to use gender stereotypes to guess at V's sex.

Is that what you mean? I haven't come across "to inform" used like that before.

If V was a real person, V being an emotionally distant parent would not rule out V being female at all. However, considering that V is a fictional character, and the author has stated he wants to avoid gender stereotypes ... I would say V has a slightly higher chance of being female in the author's mind.

On the other hand, since V's sex will never be revealed, the author might not feel the need to intentionally go against the stereotype in this case.

It is all about psychology. If V's sex is not a static fact that has been never altered from the start (in which case it would be very likely male) then V's sex as perceived by the author might even change to suit the story. As said, I would be easier able to write about Belkar molesting V if I imagined V to be male. Other plot elements, such as sharing a room with Haley, work better with female V. Et cetera. (Had V still been of clearly defined sex at the time that scene took place, I would consider it proof that V is female, but the scene is so comedic that I strongly suspect V's unknown sex already was a running gag by then)



Regarding Miko, I don't think it was unusual or wrong in and of itself to encourage her to do something useful with her life. And becoming a warrior might have been the socially expected thing for someone of her social standing. I just think more attention should have been paid to her emotional needs. Though that ship might already have sailed in her preteen years.

[Schroeswald]

Speaking about intentions, V was originally (in the single digit pages) intended to be male. But soon after the intention became (and remained) unknowable sex. There is almost certain one known unambigous sex from Inkyrius's perspective, but from the audience's perspective V's genitals are an unknowable undefinable mystery.


Almost correct, we don't actually know what V's original intended gender was, Rich only told one person and that other person won't tell.

[Themrys]

Almost correct, we don't actually know what V's original intended gender was, Rich only told one person and that other person won't tell.

That, plus Haley was treated as token female in the early strips, and androgynous elves in fiction tend to all be actually male. Female elves ... tend to not be portrayed in ways that would leave any room for doubt.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think you mean the other way round: Saying that V must be male because V is a crappy parent is to use gender stereotypes to guess at V's sex. We here (in this thread) are using the characters social roles to inform on V's sex, but I was referring to the general human tendency to assume sex causes gender/ social roles/behavior.

V's sex as perceived by the author might even change to suit the story.I don't see the need for that. In my mind, there is a fact in our world the fictional Vaarsuvius's sex is confirmed and proven to be unknowable. If V was a real person, there would have to be some fact of the matter (male/female/intersex), but since their not a real person there doesn't need to be a real fact of the matter.

I suspect that in Rich's mind, V is also in their own special category. And even if Rich does have an idea for V as one sex or another, he will intentionally hide any expressions of that, which means (as I would call it) the author's intention is an unknowable sex.
As said, I would be easier able to write about Belkar molesting V if I imagined V to be male. Other plot elements, such as sharing a room with Haley, work better with female V. I think it's one of Rich's goals to challenge the reader by having them interpret those situations without knowing the sex. Does the gender of the people involved matter in situations like those? Usually, yes. Does it matter in these exact situations? No, and we have to figure out how to interpret them without our usual gender constructs.


Regarding Miko, I don't think it was unusual or wrong in and of itself to encourage her to do something useful with her life. And becoming a warrior might have been the socially expected thing for someone of her social standing. I just think more attention should have been paid to her emotional needs. Though that ship might already have sailed in her preteen years.As I see it, the problem is encouraging that specific person to do that specific thing with their life. Specifically as not addressing her emotional needs. Paladin-hood is just a situation where the symptoms of her problems were less problematic, which just provided a way to avoid addressing them in any substantial way.

[CriticalFailure]

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform ender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.


Doesn't it do the opposite? In that the only reason people are confused about how to characterize V is because they can't determine her sex?


Well, she was teenaged (likely mid-late teenage). Still a child, yes, but a bit more context there.

In terms of age and stuff I think it makes sense in the setting, but I do think it says some things about their relationship.

[Ruck]

Sorry, in my opinion, there seems to be.....

Yeah, that kind of gets to my point, which is that I don't think it's really as clear-cut as that. Eugene and Horace clearly didn't get along, but we mostly hear it from Horace's perspective, which is that of Eugene berating him for being a stupid fighter and not a brilliant wizard, much how he treated Roy. Until we see otherwise, I'm going to assume that Eugene is just a self-centered jerk, because that seems to be the recurring pattern of his relationships.


I've been reading V as gender-neutral for a long time, and trying to find rationales for whether they're male/female feels like an argument from ten years ago (especially when the logic is as flawed and opinionated as 'V is male because all men in the comic are bad parents and V is a bad parent')

V is according to the author genderqueer, a term which can cover a wide range (but generally just does not include cis male/female). I don't think we're ever going to get a definite answer; for all we know Elves in OOTS have a wide range of gender and/or don't conceive of it in the same way we do.

As far as the binary, Vaarsuvius has generally read more female than male to me, but I think their relationship with Haley is what informs a lot of that.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, that kind of gets to my point, which is that I don't think it's really as clear-cut as that. Eugene and Horace clearly didn't get along, but we mostly hear it from Horace's perspective, which is that of Eugene berating him for being a stupid fighter and not a brilliant wizard, much how he treated Roy. Until we see otherwise, I'm going to assume that Eugene is just a self-centered jerk, because that seems to be the recurring pattern of his relationships.



V is according to the author genderqueer, a term which can cover a wide range (but generally just does not include cis male/female). I don't think we're ever going to get a definite answer; for all we know Elves in OOTS have a wide range of gender and/or don't conceive of it in the same way we do.

As far as the binary, Vaarsuvius has generally read more female than male to me, but I think their relationship with Haley is what informs a lot of that.
All of this, I agree with everything you just said here.

[pearl jam]

I suspect that in Rich's mind, V is also in their own special category. And even if Rich does have an idea for V as one sex or another, he will intentionally hide any expressions of that, which means (as I would call it) the author's intention is an unknowable sex.I think it's one of Rich's goals to challenge the reader by having them interpret those situations without knowing the sex. Does the gender of the people involved matter in situations like those? Usually, yes. Does it matter in these exact situations? No, and we have to figure out how to interpret them without our usual gender constructs.


I think that, like the tentacle spell, if the Giant had been writing the early part of the story from the same perspective that he's writing it now, that the Belkar/V scene would likely not have been included, or, if it were, certainly not for a joke. While my original interpretation of V was as male, I don't think it would materially impact my feeling about that scene had I interpreted V as female, either. But, then again, perhaps it would have at an earlier stage, too.

[CriticalFailure]

I think if V were conceived as female by the author she wouldn’t have gotten a lot of the character arc stuff she’s had. A lot of what she’s had is pretty atypical for female characters. Which is a big part of why I like to imagine her as female.

[Themrys]

I think that, like the tentacle spell, if the Giant had been writing the early part of the story from the same perspective that he's writing it now, that the Belkar/V scene would likely not have been included, or, if it were, certainly not for a joke. While my original interpretation of V was as male, I don't think it would materially impact my feeling about that scene had I interpreted V as female, either. But, then again, perhaps it would have at an earlier stage, too.

Well, your profile says you're male.

Sexual harrassment by men who are part of your friend circle, will likely not be kicked out of said friend circle regardless of what they have done, and whom you can't sue because people would drag your own reputation through the dirt ... is likely not something you tend to worry about.

If we interpret V as female, then that's just more of the same **** women have to deal with every day, and makes me, a woman, extremely uncomfortable while reading it.

If we interpret V as male, then that's a reveal of Belkar's repressed homosexual attraction (which, I guess, makes the scene a little less gratuitous) and an unusually ****ty day in the life of an androgynous male elf who usually doesn't have to deal with that kind of ****. Still uncomfortable, but nothing that makes me feel personally threatened.


@CriticalFailure: I like to give the author the benefit of the doubt, but I suspect you might be right.

[brian 333]

The Haley/Vaarsuvius relationship early on does not imply a female V. It implies that Haley knows that V isn't attracted to her because hetero males look at hotties like her, which V, unlike all the other guys in OotS, does not.

Neither does the Belkar incident. V is not concerned with Belkar's gender but with his intelligence, (or lack thereof,) and Belkar is obviously confused on the issue.

What both Haley and Belkar have in common is that they are strongly aligned with their stereotypical sex roles. For V this is unattractive. V likes the androgynes.

For the record, in the early days of D&D only male elves were andys; female elves were always stereotyped as supermodels.

My quatloos are on V being sexually male with androgynous gender.

[Themrys]

The Haley/Vaarsuvius relationship early on does not imply a female V. It implies that Haley knows that V isn't attracted to her because hetero males look at hotties like her, which V, unlike all the other guys in OotS, does not.


I am a woman myself, you know?
And I would not usually choose to room with a strange male over rooming alone. Privacy is privacy, it is independent from attraction, and gay men have been known to sexually harrass women and demand it be tolerated because of their lack of attraction, so there.

However, I might say about another woman that she will room with me if I knew she is very naive when it comes to human males, having grown up among elves, and would likely room with one of them and be molested if I didn't put my foot down.

Therefore, without any other context, I would take the scene as strong hint that V is female.

Of course, Haley knew V before anyone else, and knew V was married, which hints at them being good friends. In that case, Haley would trust V to not molest her, and also would trust that V would thoroughly annihilate any person entering the room at night with questionable purposes. Which might also prompt her to room with V in a cheap inn with thin walls and probably even worse doors. For the safety of her precious gems, if nothing else.
So V can be male, too.

As for V's gender, I never ever wondered about that. V does not - in V's natural state, being at home in the elven lands - have a gender. Elvish society, or at least where V grew up, seems to not even have gender as a part of grammar. "Androgynous gender" would still be a gender. We have never seen V complain about any pronouns used for V.

[Peelee]

And I would not usually choose to room with a strange male over rooming alone.
V's not a stranger, though; V and Haley are friends (and we see them talking in OtOoPC, where they are friends before either joined the Order).

I do agree with everything else you said there.

[brian 333]

A room of her own is not an option, and her choices are the male members of the OotS. Of them all, androgynous V is the only one who hasn't ogled her.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

Well, we do know that it took many years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)... :smalltongue:

[Themrys]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

They talked about doilies. Obviously. :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

I suspect that Vaarsuvius was originally conceived as a male, because Rich has used many names without ever using a cross-gender name, and he clearly understands Latin endings, and “-ius” is a masculine ending.

[I would not be surprised if Rich used a cross-gender name now, but he clearly did not in the early days of the strip.]

But he’s told us that since people started speculating, he has deliberately written him/her as a gender-ambiguous character.

This means that there is no answer now. Not that he hasn’t revealed the answer, but that there isn’t one.

[Themrys]

I suspect that Vaarsuvius was originally conceived as a male, because Rich has used many names without ever using a cross-gender name, and he clearly understands Latin endings, and “-ius” is a masculine ending.

[I would not be surprised if Rich used a cross-gender name now, but he clearly did not in the early days of the strip.]

But he’s told us that since people started speculating, he has deliberately written him/her as a gender-ambiguous character.

This means that there is no answer now. Not that he hasn’t revealed the answer, but that there isn’t one.

You still get hung up on Vaarsuvius gender. Vaarsuvius does not have a gender, i.e. a number of social stereotypes that V is used to having forced onto all people of V's sex. Elvish society was clearly portrayed as not having that sort of thing. That is the thing that Rich added after people got confused - the total lack of gender, not sex.

Besides, didn't Rich state somewhere that Vaarsuvius does have a clearly defined sex, but that we will never be told what it is? In that case, the answer exists - we just don't have access to it.

[NontheistCleric]

You still get hung up on Vaarsuvius gender. Vaarsuvius does not have a gender, i.e. a number of social stereotypes that V is used to having forced onto all people of V's sex. Elvish society was clearly portrayed as not having that sort of thing. That is the thing that Rich added after people got confused - the total lack of gender, not sex.

It's never actually stated that V has no gender. True, we don't know that V has a gender, but we also don't know that they don't. Elven society may not have that kind of thing, but who says V has to conform to elven society's standards? Lirian and Veldrina, at least, seem to have gender, so it's not impossible for elves to do so.

Also, one's gender does not have to be the social stereotypes that are forced onto one's own sex; it is possible to identify with a gender that is commonly associated with members of a different sex.

[CriticalFailure]

Is there any reason to think that Lirian and Veldrina consider themselves belonging to a certain role in their society or are they simply not androgynous as some elves are?

[factotum]

Is there any reason to think that Lirian and Veldrina consider themselves belonging to a certain role in their society or are they simply not androgynous as some elves are?

Well, Lirian was definitely the lover of the unquestionably male Dorukan, and while that doesn't necessarily imply she has a defined gender role, it certainly makes it more likely.

[Sir_Norbert]

Veldrina should probably not be weighted too heavily here, considering her origins as a Kickstarter backer reward.

That said, I agree it's absurd to make blanket statements about elven society, when all we know is that two specific elves have no gender, one of those two doesn't seem to understand the concept, and elven language has non-gendered terms for referring to parents. Language is not the same as society. Some languages have gendered terms for "cousin", while English does not. Does that mean English speakers perceive cousinhood differently? I highly doubt it.

[hroþila]

I'd say we've seen elves all over the gender spectrum* in the comic, but the majority seems to be androgynous to various degrees (and this includes Veldrina). My interpretation is that V and Inky are typical elves in this regard, while Lirian and the Team Peregrine commander probably aren't.

*according to our own society's understanding of gender, at any rate

[Seward]

Maybe monks are more-or-less like that, but that isn't a problem because they don't leave the monastery. Or maybe the problem was mixing up monkish discipline with the paladin code in a child that didn't have any parental figure to complement and nuance what she was taught by instructors. As she becomes more intolerable and avoided, she is increasingly isolated, which probably made a number on her mental health. As she becomes a troublemaker, Shojo starts sending her away, something in which she probably takes pride, but also deprives her even more of the chance of being part of a community.

Mechanically, Monks consider Lawful to be the important thing, and that did seem to translate into how Miko approached being a Paladin. It is possible that her tendency to quick judgement and violence were noticed at an early age and the monastic training was an attempt to channel that into something safe for society - and that later it was hoped that the Paladin code would also help with that goal. Ie, what if Belkar was caught young and given Monk and Paladin training?

The one monk I played for any length of time was a half-orc who wanted an alternative to the Rage path for being an effective warrior so he was atypical in many ways due to his history and upbringing (wanted and eventually had a family, also trained at a Bardic College to gain an understanding of human behavior - also because he enjoyed being a large Ham on the acting stage) but the concept of discipline and finding a solution within the Law was a big deal for him (he was also a devout follower of a LG god with neutral tendencies).

[Seward]

I got two counterpoints to the OP:

Now Odin is the father of Loki (that with Loki being Thor's bro and Odin's son), and although Odin's kinda senile, he's at least there for his children, which is an auto-win over Loki's mother who never even bother to show up her face during all the god conspiracies, like when her son is screwing over whole mortal races with bets.


{scrubbed}

[Seward]

I feel compelled to point out that there are options other than "male" and "female."

Agreed. And given that V very early stopped noticing or understanding gender distinctions V and possibly V's native branch of Elvish culture doesn't recognize them either. "Other Parent" is what V's mate calls V, for example.

Physically V may have a gender, but that is probably completely irrelevant to V and V's culture. Indeed somebody identifying with a gender is possibly as unusual as identifying as genderless is in our culture.

[CriticalFailure]

There's no reason to think that gender is a part of the elves' culture at this point.

[t209]

Speaking of Gender, I think Inkyrius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/b7OTeAyRe197OsQD1hc.gif) has a male body, assuming if he was intended to be gender ambigious of course.
Inkyrius has a square hips like male characters and he's not a crappy parent.

[deuterio12]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}


Says who? Surtr is a giant and powerful enough that Thor had to set out personally to stop him from rampaging around the land while eating people like candy.

Hel is dating a Frost giant that was ready to challenge Thor to a 1x1.

Plus Loki/Hel were always full fledged gods, so their moms are had to be godlike too otherwise they would just be puny demigods, not sitting at the top of the divine power chain.

[Rrmcklin]

There's no reason to think that gender is a part of the elves' culture at this point.

I mean, Liran (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong) seemed pretty clearly female, in both body and identity.

V and V's mate are not the only elves.

[mjasghar]

Hel is not dating Thyrrm - he is orbiting her but she clearly doesn’t seem to care enough for anyone except herself
And Thyrrm is a demigod so clearly below Thor in power

[Dion]

Hel is not dating Thyrrm - he is orbiting her but she clearly doesn’t seem to care enough for anyone except herself
And Thyrrm is a demigod so clearly below Thor in power

So, in the Marvel Universe, are we to understand that Thrymr is Loki’s “real” father? I was a little confused by the end of Thor.

(And by “confused”, I mean the last fifteen minutes were “We’ve secretly replaced the script with loud noise and bright lights. Let’s see if anyone notices!”)

[Themrys]

Speaking of Gender, I think Inkyrius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/b7OTeAyRe197OsQD1hc.gif) has a male body, assuming if he was intended to be gender ambigious of course.
Inkyrius has a square hips like male characters and he's not a crappy parent.

True. Inkyrius is a really good parent in what little we have seen of him. The only mistake he made was marrying a power-hungry adventurer, but that can happen to everyone. Elan's mother had to deal with that, too.


@Seward: Not identifying as any gender whatsoever is a lot more common than you probably think. It's just that people who do not have a gender identity that is "agender" or "nonbinary", but simply do not have a gender identity in the first place do not care what pronouns you use for them, so you will never be told about their feelings regarding gender.

[Kantaki]

I mean, Liran (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong) seemed pretty clearly female, in both body and identity.

V and V's mate are not the only elves.

But looking at other Stick-world elves, its definitely Lirian who stands out, when it comes to the body at least.

Veldrina and the Resistance elves look closer to V and Inkyrius.
Maybe Lirian had Drow blood?
Or human blood maybe?

On bad parents, does Hilgya count?
Her parenting style might not be the worst we've seen, but I wouldn't call „taking your baby into battle” good parenting either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, in the Marvel Universe, are we to understand that Thrym is Loki’s “real” father? I was a little confused by the end of Thor.

No, Loki's father is/was Laufey, King of Jotunheim. Thrym never comes up in the MCU, as far as I can recall.

[Ruck]

Hel is dating a Frost giant
Once again, you should try reading the actual comic and not the imaginary one you've invented.


Plus Loki/Hel were always full fledged gods, so their moms are had to be godlike too otherwise they would just be puny demigods, not sitting at the top of the divine power chain.
It's not entirely clear where the gods came from, aside from those that are explicitly given parentage.

[Riftwolf]

But looking at other Stick-world elves, its definitely Lirian who stands out, when it comes to the body at least.

Veldrina and the Resistance elves look closer to V and Inkyrius.
Maybe Lirian had Drow blood?
Or human blood maybe?

Maybe there's a wide variety of body types for elvendom? Vs body looks different from other elves (it might be the robe) but is definitely full-elf.

As for Lirian being definitely feminine rather than androgynous; elf sex could be a sliding scale rather than binary, but there would still be some that are at the ends of the scale.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for Lirian being definitely feminine rather than androgynous; elf sex could be a sliding scale rather than binary, but there would still be some that are at the ends of the scale. When we ask our selves where half elves come from ... maybe Dorukan and Lirian were both past fertile ages or they both never wanted kids ....

[Darth Paul]

As for Lirian being definitely feminine rather than androgynous; elf sex could be a sliding scale rather than binary, but there would still be some that are at the ends of the scale.

IRL some humans certainly play up their masculinity or femininity, while others are more middle of the road. Especially now that the same hairstyles etc. are becoming accepted for everyone regardless. So there's no reason elves can't be the same.

[nolongeralurker]

Couple quick things to add to this discussion. IIRC:
1) Elan's mother didn't give up Nale willingly, it was decided by the court, and she cried about him afterwards
2) In addition to mentioning his aunt and grandmother, Belkar mentions something about Mama Bitterleaf's recipe for (murder? something violent, I forget). So unless Mama is a term he used for grandmother, he's probably talking about his mother, who was also violent. Also, when he mentions his grandmother being taken to a retirement home, he says "we took her", which I'd guess refers to himself and at least one other member of his family, possibly a parent. Oh and unless Belkar has his mother's maiden last name (which might make sense if his father abandoned him/was a nameless guy from a one-night stand or something), then 'Mama Bitterleaf' was apparently married to his father(/grandfather).
3) {scrubbed}

(Sorry this is badly-written, I'm on my phone)

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: This is a friendly reminder to keep all religious or mythology talk firmly rooted in the comic (or gaming, or other comics, or any other strictly fictional medium).

[Dion]

I don’t believe V is a crappy parent.

V is far from a perfect parent. And, I’m not sure if V is making an active effort to be a good parent.

But comparing V to Roy’s dad or Elan’s dad (who each literally killed one of their own children) is unfair.

I’m not saying V is a good parent because they’re better than Eugene and Tarquin (or Hilgya and Loki). That’s a pretty low bar, and you don’t get a lot of points for clearing it.

But V does clear the bar.

[Darth Paul]

But comparing V to Roy’s dad or Elan’s dad (who each literally killed one of their own children) is unfair.

When you put it that way, I think that comparing Eugene (whose son died in what we would call a laboratory accident, from what little we know or infer) with Tarquin (who outright murdered his son in cold blood) is pretty harsh, if you're using the phrase "each literally killed their own children".

I mean, is it true from the perspective that both took some actions that resulted in the death of their child? Yes. Was it intentional in both cases?? I hope not. It's hard for me to picture Eugene ending up waiting for the LG afterlife if he had been the kind of man who would test out death spells on his toddler.

[hroþila]

Accidents where good parents lose their kids do happen. While it is certainly implied that there was a degree of negligence on Eugene's part, the fact that Sara stayed with him and still showed some respect towards him post mortem probably suggests that it wasn't a particularly egregious case of negligence. Now, Eugene was certainly a terrible father (to Roy, at least), but saying he killed Eric is taking it too far, in my opinion.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Oh, Eugene pretty definitely killed him, given the information we have. What he didn't do was commit murder, which is what Tarquin did to Nale.

[Emanick]

When you're the absolute ruler of a country and one of your subjects commits murder, is it really a crime to execute them? And should the answer depend on whether the subject is your son?

Depending on how you look at it, Eugene is actually more to blame than Tarquin. At least Tarquin was knowingly doing "justice," albeit in a disturbingly cold-blooded way. Eugene may not be guilty of murder, but there's no way in which he comes out of the situation with Eric looking blameless.

[factotum]

Oh, Eugene pretty definitely killed him, given the information we have. What he didn't do was commit murder, which is what Tarquin did to Nale.

Even Roy says in #496: "You didn't miss much after the accident." when talking to his baby brother. Note "accident". Whatever accident occurred does not necessarily have to be something Eugene did directly. Just to give an example, if this were set in modern times, and the child died because Eugene wasn't watching him carefully enough and he stuck a fork into a power outlet, would you say Eugene killed the child? Blame for the child's death can still be assigned to someone even if that person didn't kill them outright.

[Peelee]

When you're the absolute ruler of a country and one of your subjects commits murder

They weren't in the EOB (or even any of the other LG countries. If they were, they wouldn't have had the "finders keepers" rule take effect), and Nale isn't one of their subjects.

[goodpeople25]

When you're the absolute ruler of a country and one of your subjects commits murder, is it really a crime to execute them? And should the answer depend on whether the subject is your son?

Depending on how you look at it, Eugene is actually more to blame than Tarquin. At least Tarquin was knowingly doing "justice," albeit in a disturbingly cold-blooded way. Eugene may not be guilty of murder, but there's no way in which he comes out of the situation with Eric looking blameless.
Officially he isn't the absolute ruler. Unofficially he still isn't.

Even if he was absolute ruler or whatever and that applied to the killing so what? His motives still apply (perhaps more so) to judging the action and those were pretty dang clear.

[Dion]

When you're the absolute ruler of a country and one of your subjects commits murder, is it really a crime to execute them?

Sure, if the law is “anything Tarquin does is automatically legal because Tarquin said so”, then it’s true that Tarquin did not commit a crime.

However, I’m kind of a fan of trials, and I’d argue that he’s still kinda evil.

Also, I’d argue that murdering Nale made Tarquin a bad parent to Nale, regardless of whether or not it was legal.

[Vinyadan]

When you're the absolute ruler of a country and one of your subjects commits murder, is it really a crime to execute them? And should the answer depend on whether the subject is your son?


That's not really how it went, though. Tarquin offered Nale a position as pawn, and Nale refused, so he killed him in cold blood and without a warning. So, even if Tarquin had been interested in justice, it still would have been behind his power, his plans, or his legacy, depending on what he was exactly aiming for.

[Themrys]

On bad parents, does Hilgya count?
Her parenting style might not be the worst we've seen, but I wouldn't call „taking your baby into battle” good parenting either.

No, she doesn't.
Let's not be silly, please. This is a comic based on D&D. Real life logic only applies to some extent. She says she is high level enough to effectively protect her child, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe she's lying.

Let's remember that V only just so bothers to make sure that the injuries of Inky and the kids aren't immediately life-threatening. If it weren't taking place in a comic based on D&D that would make V an even more terribly bad parent than V is already.



Tarquin is a crappy parent not so much because he killed Nale after Nale had become an uncontrollable maniac who walked around murdering Tarquin's friends, but because he brought up Nale to become the sort of person who would do that sort of thing. (We are shown that Nale already had an evil moustache as baby, but Tarquin clearly never made an effort to teach him empathy.) He raised Nale to be just like himself, and then hated him for it.

Actually, thinking about it, Nale turned out pretty okay considering that he was raised by Tarquin. Nale seems to have been in a healthy, loving relationship with Sabine, while Tarquin ... last time he took an interest in a woman he committed rape by deception, then tried to follow that up with rape by coercion.

Bad role model. Very bad role model.



V versus Eugene ... belittling your son for wanting to be a fighter is pretty bad, but then, unlike V, Eugene did give up adventuring to be with his family.

Hopefully, V will manage to become a better parent in V's lifetime than Eugene managed to be in his lifetime, but as far, they're about the same - V might accidentally have caused Inky and the children to be killed by angering the black dragon. Pretty similar to how Eugene killed his son in an accident while, probably, pursuing arcane power.

[CriticalFailure]

It's particularly interesting that Eugene apparently doesn't want Roy to know that he gave up adventuring to be with his family. He hid the fact that he chose to stay with them rather than go after Xykon. though he seems to have regretted it once he got shut out of the afterlife. The scene where he tells Roy it would've been more efficient not to have a family is particularly interesting in this respect. It makes me wonder if his callous attitude is sort of overcompensating because he doesn't want Roy to know that he actually chose his family over his revenge quest.

[Vinyadan]

Who, Hilgya? The woman who murdered her son's father right in front of her baby? Sure, sounds great. I'm sure she'll put the child's well-being above her petty desires. After all, she did cover his eyes with her hand, although she didn't see any problem in him seeing the corpse.

[Riftwolf]

Also, I’d argue that murdering Nale made Tarquin a bad parent to Nale, regardless of whether or not it was legal.

Only on this forum would this point need to be argued...

[Themrys]

It's particularly interesting that Eugene apparently doesn't want Roy to know that he gave up adventuring to be with his family. He hid the fact that he chose to stay with them rather than go after Xykon. though he seems to have regretted it once he got shut out of the afterlife. The scene where he tells Roy it would've been more efficient not to have a family is particularly interesting in this respect. It makes me wonder if his callous attitude is sort of overcompensating because he doesn't want Roy to know that he actually chose his family over his revenge quest.

Perhaps he is angry at himself for making that decision, now that he has to deal with the consequences.

It is also possible that he sees it as a weakness to prioritize love over revenge. (Theoretically, he might not want Roy to feel it is somehow partly his fault for having existed, but with how overall bad he is, I can't really imagine that he'd be that considerate.)

He is very different from V in that respect - I don't think V would ever feel ashamed of choosing love, if V had had the strength of character to do it (before having to save the world became a thing, obviously). V has made it very clear that, when not distracted by V's greed for arcane power, V values Inky above all else. But then, V is not at all affected by gender stereotypes and societal expectations and doesn't ever seem to care what people in general think, only listening to Haley and Blackwing when they call V out on hurting people's feelings.

Off topic, but I really want to see V do that throwing Vself at Inky's feet and begging forgiveness thing.

[Peelee]

No, she doesn't.
Let's not be silly, please. This is a comic based on D&D. Real life logic only applies to some extent. She says she is high level enough to effectively protect her child, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe she's lying.

She doesn't have to be lying to be wrong or boneheaded. Wearing a baby on your chest as you fight vampires is a boneheaded move. Things you don't anticipate could happen. And, hey, she didn't anticipate getting dominated and her child being used as a human dwarven shield, but it happened, which is a pretty good reason to not take a baby into battle against an army of vampires.

[Schroeswald]

She doesn't have to be lying to be wrong or boneheaded. Wearing a baby on your chest as you fight vampires is a boneheaded move. Things you don't anticipate could happen. And, hey, she didn't anticipate getting dominated and her child being used as a human dwarven shield, but it happened, which is a pretty good reason to not take a baby into battle against an army of vampires.

Kudzu didn’t dieee! And that means it was a good idea!

[hroþila]

Also, I would say that V's callousness when assessing the wounds of their children was 100% meant to be interpreted as V being callous and a bad parent, not as "this is just a fun comic where the things people do are exaggerated for comedic effect!".

[CriticalFailure]

Perhaps he is angry at himself for making that decision, now that he has to deal with the consequences.

It is also possible that he sees it as a weakness to prioritize love over revenge. (Theoretically, he might not want Roy to feel it is somehow partly his fault for having existed, but with how overall bad he is, I can't really imagine that he'd be that considerate.)

He is very different from V in that respect - I don't think V would ever feel ashamed of choosing love, if V had had the strength of character to do it (before having to save the world became a thing, obviously). V has made it very clear that, when not distracted by V's greed for arcane power, V values Inky above all else. But then, V is not at all affected by gender stereotypes and societal expectations and doesn't ever seem to care what people in general think, only listening to Haley and Blackwing when they call V out on hurting people's feelings.

Off topic, but I really want to see V do that throwing Vself at Inky's feet and begging forgiveness thing.

Yeah I think he's regretting not prioritizing petty revenge over his family now that he is stuck on a cloud. I find Eugene to be quite interesting because I can't really understand how he ticks. He seems to have carried on his family history of dysfunctional father/son relationships, and he is callous and cruel to Roy about his life choices and family matters in general. The idea that he sees choosing love as a weakness is interesting. It seems to fit with his crotchety and closed off demeanor. I wonder if the whole accident with Eric changed his views on it and made him more regretful of settling down as well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe. We know from SoD that his meeting with Right-Eye was before Eric was born.

[Vinyadan]

I think that Eugene is trapped in a cycle of changing priorities. As Roy's Mum described him, he has his fixations, he follows them as long as he cares, and he is pretty good at them. Then he finds a new one, drops the old one, and doesn't care about it any more.

Eugene had his "Fyron" time. Then he had his "revenge" time. Then he had his "wife" time. Then he had some other time, maybe "magic R&D". Then he died, and he had "entering heaven", whose prerequisite was fulfilling a vow he didn't care about any more.

What we see in his meeting with Right Eye is that Eugene has already turned away from revenge, but also that he isn't really prioritising family. He does give some solid general advice to Right-Eye, but R-E is a stranger, a goblin, and a servant of evil. Eugene isn't opening up to him and sharing his priorities with him, he's just turning him away in a polite and reasoned (and LG) way.

Here though there also is another element, which is that Eugene wants Roy to be a wizard. So it's not just his priorities changing, even if he still had family on top he'd still have to choose between making Wife and Son happy, or trying to turn Roy into what he wants him to be.

[Themrys]

Also, I would say that V's callousness when assessing the wounds of their children was 100% meant to be interpreted as V being callous and a bad parent, not as "this is just a fun comic where the things people do are exaggerated for comedic effect!".

Nowhere but in a D&D based comic would it be possible to know immediately and without being a trained healer that your injuries (that bleed a lot!) are not life-threatening.

And when Elan and Belkar used Roy's incapacitation by the poisoned trap to ridicule him, I don't think that was meant to be read as them being the absolute monsters that would make them in a similar real life situation. (Okay, Belkar is an absolute monster, but I don't think we are supposed to see Elan that way.)

The characters are aware of their hit points, and how many they have and how much damage they can take before their life is in danger.

[deuterio12]

I think that Eugene is trapped in a cycle of changing priorities. As Roy's Mum described him, he has his fixations, he follows them as long as he cares, and he is pretty good at them. Then he finds a new one, drops the old one, and doesn't care about it any more.

Eugene had his "Fyron" time. Then he had his "revenge" time. Then he had his "wife" time. Then he had some other time, maybe "magic R&D". Then he died, and he had "entering heaven", whose prerequisite was fulfilling a vow he didn't care about any more.

What we see in his meeting with Right Eye is that Eugene has already turned away from revenge, but also that he isn't really prioritising family. He does give some solid general advice to Right-Eye, but R-E is a stranger, a goblin, and a servant of evil. Eugene isn't opening up to him and sharing his priorities with him, he's just turning him away in a polite and reasoned (and LG) way.

Here though there also is another element, which is that Eugene wants Roy to be a wizard. So it's not just his priorities changing, even if he still had family on top he'd still have to choose between making Wife and Son happy, or trying to turn Roy into what he wants him to be.

But Eugene was right into wanting Roy to become a wizard instead of a fighter, since they're following 3rd edition rules.

A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.

Is it wrong for a father to want the best for his son and to be unhappy when said son instead goes learn the skills of of low-life glorified thug that ultimately gets said son killed?

[Quebbster]

But Eugene was right into wanting Roy to become a wizard instead of a fighter, since they're following 3rd edition rules.

A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.

Is it wrong for a father to want the best for his son and to be unhappy when said son instead goes learn the skills of of low-life glorified thug that ultimately gets said son killed?

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.

But let's say Roy was a spellcaster instead. How would the Order have gotten out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without Roy hulking out and taking Xykon out of the fight before he had a chance to react?

[hroþila]

Nowhere but in a D&D based comic would it be possible to know immediately and without being a trained healer that your injuries (that bleed a lot!) are not life-threatening.

And when Elan and Belkar used Roy's incapacitation by the poisoned trap to ridicule him, I don't think that was meant to be read as them being the absolute monsters that would make them in a similar real life situation. (Okay, Belkar is an absolute monster, but I don't think we are supposed to see Elan that way.)

The characters are aware of their hit points, and how many they have and how much damage they can take before their life is in danger.
Sure, but the tone of those scenes was completely different - tone matters in a comedy comic strip. And regardless, V's children were visibly distressed, quite independently from their wounds, and V still chose to take disproportionate and cruel revenge on an already dead enemy rather than comfort them first. Roy was not distressed.

[Themrys]

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.



Very. Let's not forget that most real life parents who want their child to become something that pays well instead of an artist are right, from a pragmatic, money-earning point of view.

Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.

Perhaps Roy is less efficient as a fighter than he could be as wizard. So what? If being a fighter is what makes him happy, and he earns enough money adventuring as fighter to make a living, where's the problem?

He didn't even know that Eugene had saddled him with that oath.


Leaving your child with a large, unpaid debt, but never telling him that that's what you did, instead trying to get him to change his career plans to something more effective at paying off that debt by mocking his dreams = pad parenting.

Eugene would have done less damage if he had sat Roy down and explained to him that he could easily end up having to fight Xykon and that in 3rd edition, a wizard might be better able to do so than a fighter.
Then he would still be to blame for making that oath, and not fulfilling it before starting a family, in the first place, but he wouldn't have added the damage to Roy's self esteem on top of it.

[deuterio12]

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.

But let's say Roy was a spellcaster instead. How would the Order have gotten out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without Roy hulking out and taking Xykon out of the fight before he had a chance to react?

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).

That's the interesting thing with 3rd edition wizards, they can fight better than the Fighter class! (also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter Roy).


Let's not forget that most real life parents who want their child to become something that pays well instead of an artist are right, from a pragmatic, money-earning point of view.

Being a Fighter in 3rd edition is not "screw being a doctor, I'll be an artist", it's "screw being a doctor, I'll be a hobo".

The wizard is not onlly better paid, he could also be a better artist, or a professor, or many things that the fighter can only dream of.

Any parent is right to want to prevent their children from becoming hobos.



Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.

Perhaps Roy is less efficient as a fighter than he could be as wizard. So what? If being a fighter is what makes him happy, and he earns enough money adventuring as fighter to make a living, where's the problem?

That Roy not only got himself killed being a Fighter that can't even take a fall but also that the rest of the world if not the gods themselves may be destroyed along reality?

Kinda hard being happy when you're dead or there's no world/reality to be happy in.



He didn't even know that Eugene had saddled him with that oath.


Leaving your child with a large, unpaid debt, but never telling him that that's what you did, instead trying to get him to change his career plans to something more effective at paying off that debt by mocking his dreams = pad parenting.

Eugene would have done less damage if he had sat Roy down and explained to him that he could easily end up having to fight Xykon and that in 3rd edition, a wizard might be better able to do so than a fighter.
Then he would still be to blame for making that oath, and not fulfilling it before starting a family, in the first place, but he wouldn't have added the damage to Roy's self esteem on top of it.

Eugene didn't know the debt would pass on to his children until he himself was dead.

[Peelee]

Eugene didn't know the debt would pass on to his children until he himself was dead.

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

[factotum]

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.

[Quebbster]

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).

That's the interesting thing with 3rd edition wizards, they can fight better than the Fighter class! (also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter Roy).
I assume that Wizard Roy would not have the same Deep emotional Connection to the sword since the famly legacy was the main reason he wanted to become a fighter in the first Place. If you assume Wizard Roy is "like Fighter Roy but can also cast spells"... Well, Haley would probably be more effective if she could cast spells too. Or pretty much any non-spellcaster in the story. That's not the Point of this story though.

That Roy not only got himself killed being a Fighter that can't even take a fall but also that the rest of the world if not the gods themselves may be destroyed along reality?

Kinda hard being happy when you're dead or there's no world/reality to be happy in.
I must have missed the scene where Teen Roy was informed he would need to duel an Epic lich for the fate of the entire World Before deciding to become a fighter.

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.
He remembers at least one thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html) he was told by the deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). Doesn't mean he remembers it all of course, but some details apparently stick at least.
On the other hand, we know the afterlife routines are subject to change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html), so maybe Eugene didn't get his interview until he met his final Death?

[hroþila]

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).
Lots of rounds spent casting stuff while Xykon does nothing. Also, what sword?

[Emanick]

Lots of rounds spent casting stuff while Xykon does nothing. Also, what sword?

That's not even mentioning the fact that Mage's Transformation would be too high a level for Wizard!Roy to cast at that point in the story.

[Quebbster]

Imagine how different things would have been if Shojo had become a wizard instead of an Aristocrat though. He could have just blasted Miko instead of letting her kill him.

[Peelee]

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.

IIRC the memories were fuzzy after he passed through the gates, not before.

[137beth]

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

He was told he couldn't get in after dying of old age (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html). I don't think there is any indication that he knew after his first death. Either way, though, he could have told Roy during the first dungeon.

[Schroeswald]

He was told he couldn't get in after dying of old age (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html). I don't think there is any indication that he knew after his first death. Either way, though, he could have told Roy during the first dungeon.

He did know about the Blood Oath passing to his children before his final death, we know this because he told Roy it would pass on to him and Julia while he was alive, he didn't know everything, like that it had to go to Roy or that he couldn't get to the afterlife

[factotum]

I entirely managed to forget that conversation, Schroeswald--good point. OK, objection withdrawn, Eugene definitely knew he was passing on his Blood Oath before his final death. What he didn't seem to realise was that passing on the Blood Oath to his children didn't mean he would be able to get into Celestia...

[Jasdoif]

IIRC the memories were fuzzy after he passed through the gates, not before.Pretty (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376) much. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256)



He can remember anything from Clouds, including the dish of food he brought down the elevator with him.

Everything else is "fuzzy," not full amnesia. So he knows he saw his Mom, but not exactly what happened.

[Dion]

Has anything good ever come from a blood oath?

Maybe Eugene was from 2nd edition when bards didn’t really exist, so nobody was around to tell him that a blood oath was a really terrible idea.

Or maybe Eugene listened to his party’s bard as often as V listens to Elan.

Roger the Bard: No Eugene! The rule of stories says Blood Oaths always destroy the person who makes them! Ask Christopher Tolkien!

Eugene the Wizard: Did anyone hear a pretty dude with a lute talking? He sounds like “blah blah blah. Im a stupid bard!”

[Quizatzhaderac]

Plus Loki/Hel were always full fledged gods, so their moms are had to be godlike too otherwise they would just be puny demigods, not sitting at the top of the divine power chain."demigod" as referring to somebody of mixed divine an mortal blood doesn't really apply here; that's a term form a specific religion that was big on genealogies. As I understand it, a "demigod" in D&D rules is just a categorization of power.

Also, it's not really possible for most of the OOTS northern gods to have two parents in the pantheon, unless Rich invented a bunch of incestuous relationships out of whole cloth.

Come to think of it, I'm not 100% any OOTSverse gods were born or have any biological relationships, maybe they just have these relationships projected onto them by mortals.


That's not really how it went, though. Tarquin offered Nale a position as pawn, and Nale refused, so he killed him in cold blood and without a warning. So, even if Tarquin had been interested in justice, it still would have been behind his power, his plans, or his legacy, depending on what he was exactly aiming for.Sure, Justice wasn't really Tarquin's first (or third) concern. But the decision between letting Nale go and killing him was still based off justice (or at least the appearance before his vector legion comrades).
A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.I'm of the impression that in the OOTSverse (regardless of actual 3/3.5 rules) any wizard is going to spend half their time disabled like V, and that any attempts to get by without a PC tanking isn't going to be sustainable in the long term.

also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter RoyActually (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html), hulked out Roy beat hulked out, vamped out Durkon.

[KorvinStarmast]

Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.
My parents would find that sentence laughable. Eugene, I suspect, was keenly aware of "Linear Fighter / Quadratic wizard" and seemed to have difficulty making clear why it was a better choice. But there were other issues, like standard "son rebels versus father" such as Eugene did with his dad.

As to the happiness line, I take a more nuanced view, in that happiness (as I see it) is a by product of a life well lived, and some luck, and the kindness of both friends and strangers: not an entitlement. My other comment on that thought is that you pose a false dichotomy, but I don't think it was intentional. (Either happiness or money has also a problem of "the excluded middle" but let's not go there).

And for me, as a parent, I wanted my kids to be well prepared for life, and if along the way in their pursuit of happiness, and any other life goals, they end up happy: good. Great. Greatest. They are both out of the house and pursuing their dreams/vocations, neither of which are the ones their parents expected. but they are doing fine and living life ... how happy they are is beyond our control. We are always there, and it just takes a phone call if anything we can do is needed.

What's that got to do with Roy and his parents?
Mombalaya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html), that's what. :smallsmile:

[Bilbo Baggins]

Has anything good ever come from a blood oath?

Maybe Eugene was from 2nd edition when bards didn’t really exist, so nobody was around to tell him that a blood oath was a really terrible idea.

Or maybe Eugene listened to his party’s bard as often as V listens to Elan.

Roger the Bard: No Eugene! The rule of stories says Blood Oaths always destroy the person who makes them! Ask Christopher Tolkien!

Eugene the Wizard: Did anyone hear a pretty dude with a lute talking? He sounds like “blah blah blah. Im a stupid bard!”

The circumstances surrounding the blood oath are recounted in Start of Darkness.

Eugene decided to get the oath while in a drunken stupor, and this happened before he joined an adventuring party. (The guy administering the oath *did* tell him it was a bad idea, but he was too drunk/stubborn to care.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Like Eugene listens to anyone besides wizards and rarely his family.

[Quebbster]

Like Eugene listens to anyone besides wizards and rarely his family.

We haven't really seen him interacting with wizards either (besides Fyron). He might be a jerk towards other wizards too, maybe in a slightly different way.
Eugene and Shojo seemed to get along though. Not sure what to make of that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're both manipulative A*holes. Birds of a feather and all that.

[Emanick]

We haven't really seen him interacting with wizards either (besides Fyron). He might be a jerk towards other wizards too, maybe in a slightly different way.
Eugene and Shojo seemed to get along though. Not sure what to make of that.

Eugene has frequently extolled the supremacy of wizardry, and the sole wizard we've seen him interact with is also the person whom he seemed to get along with the best. (He's also complimentary of Vaarsuvius in a brief aside.) While it's certainly possible that he's mostly a jerk to wizards as well, I don't think it's particularly likely.

You're right that he does seem to get along with Shojo well. Unsure why, unless it's an admiration for ruthless efficiency. I feel like it's revealing of something in his character, but overall I'm not really sure what to make of it, either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He's popular enough with wizards to win multiple Wizzy Awards, remember.

[factotum]

He's popular enough with wizards to win multiple Wizzy Awards, remember.

We have no idea what criteria are used for those or how they're awarded--if it's some sort of vote of his peers then yes, that shows he's popular among other wizards, but we don't know if that's the case.

[Dr.Zero]

Who, Hilgya? The woman who murdered her son's father right in front of her baby? Sure, sounds great. I'm sure she'll put the child's well-being above her petty desires. After all, she did cover his eyes with her hand, although she didn't see any problem in him seeing the corpse.

Actually, I'm almost sure that she covered Kudzu's eyes to protect them from the bright light of the flame strike, like she did every time she used that spell (IIRC), more than to hide tne fact that dwarf -who Kudzu had just known- was being flame struck.

[Dion]

I believe the argument posed by the OP was: “We know Eugene is a bad parent. We also know Eugene is male. Finally, we know V is a bad parent. Therefore we can conclude V is male, and Chewbacca lives on Endor.”

So, separate from the discussion about South Park and Star Wars we should be having, I have to ask:

Is Eugene actually a bad parent? Really?

[Quebbster]

I believe the argument posed by the OP was: “We know Eugene is a bad parent. We also know Eugene is male. Finally, we know V is a bad parent. Therefore we can conclude V is male, and Chewbacca lives on Endor.”

So, separate from the discussion about South Park and Star Wars we should be having, I have to ask:

Is Eugene actually a bad parent? Really?
He neglected Roy, caused Eric's death and spoiled Julia rotten. Not a great track record, at least not from Roy's point of view. Julia may feel differently.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She seemed pretty happy that the school's anti-ghost wards kept him from bothering her. Although that may be generic teenager-parent rather than anything specific to Eugene.

[deuterio12]

He neglected Roy, caused Eric's death and spoiled Julia rotten. Not a great track record, at least not from Roy's point of view. Julia may feel differently.

How exactly did Eugene neglect Roy? His mother herself confirms Eugene was a pretty good family father (at least for some time). And before that he was a veteran adventurer that rightfully recognized the great danger Xykon presents and that the lich must be stopped. And "Son I'm willing to pay lots of money for you to to go to wizard university so you can learn how to bend reality to your whims and you can do anything you want with your life." is pretty much the opposite of neglect if nothing else.

It was Roy who walked away from his father and went "No, f*** you dad, I don't want to learn how reality works so I can bend it to my will, instead I'm gonna waste my youth learning how to swing a stick worst than a cleric or a wizard so that I end up a mangled corpse in some battlefield!"

[Kantaki]

It was Roy who walked away from his father and went "No, f*** you dad, I don't want to learn how reality works so I can bend it to my will, instead I'm gonna waste my youth learning how to swing a stick worst than a cleric or a wizard so that I end up a mangled corpse in some battlefield!"

To bei fair top Roy, in the Stick-Verse being a Fighter doesn't mean you're useless.
Just look at Roy and Horace.

Also, Eugene's... poor attitude most certainly helped with Roy's career choice.

Besides, if being a wizard ist so important for the whole Xykon mess Eugene could've explained stuff before his son was mostly done with fighter school.

Not to mention that insisting your kid follow your career isn't necessarily good parenting.
Especially if you keep it up after they have been successful on their own chosen path.

Almost makes me wish Roy had become a sorcerer.:smallbiggrin:

[Quebbster]

How exactly did Eugene neglect Roy? His mother herself confirms Eugene was a pretty good family father (at least for some time). And before that he was a veteran adventurer that rightfully recognized the great danger Xykon presents and that the lich must be stopped. And "Son I'm willing to pay lots of money for you to to go to wizard university so you can learn how to bend reality to your whims and you can do anything you want with your life." is pretty much the opposite of neglect if nothing else.

It was Roy who walked away from his father and went "No, f*** you dad, I don't want to learn how reality works so I can bend it to my will, instead I'm gonna waste my youth learning how to swing a stick worst than a cleric or a wizard so that I end up a mangled corpse in some battlefield!"
See Start of Darkness. I think it's the only scene we have where Eugene interacts with Child Roy.
Eugene was most likely a good provider though. Fighter College for Roy probably wasn't free and Julia seems to have her way paid through wizard school even though both her parents are dead. It's the emotional connection and support that's severely lacking.

[Aidan]

Actually, I'm almost sure that she covered Kudzu's eyes to protect them from the bright light of the flame strike, like she did every time she used that spell (IIRC), more than to hide tne fact that dwarf -who Kudzu had just known- was being flame struck.

See (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) Higlya is the right sort of parent, protecting her baby's retinas.

[137beth]

Imagine how different things would have been if Shojo had become a wizard instead of an Aristocrat though. He could have just blasted Miko instead of letting her kill him.

Well maybe Shojo should have been a warblade! That way even if Miko killed him he could just use Iron Heart Surge to remove the "dead" condition.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe Shojo should've used some pocket change on a custom magic item that gave him a permanent Sanctuary effect.