Better support character?

[jaappleton]

I have a character in mind for an upcoming Avernus game.

A lawful neutral Hobgoblin that's more than willing to accompany the party because if anyone is going to take over the world, its Goblinoids and NOT Devils! And maybe the non-Goblinoids can prove their usefulness, the lazy good-for-nothings...

I want to be a support caster. But I'm unsure as to what's superior: Healing & support, or buffing / debuffing?

So, here's my question:

Divine Soul Sorc, or Life Domain Cleric?

(We ARE playing with the Psionics UA and the Class Variant UA)

Divine Soul
+Twin buffs & debuffs
+Unerring Metamagic to roll with Advantage
+Access to both spell lists
+Empowered Healing
+Saving throw bonus with Favored of the Gods
+Gets the new Psychic spells from UA, so good not-resisted spells & Mind Sliver to impact enemy saves
+Constitution saving throw proficiency
-d6, very squishy
-Only Light Armor via Hobgoblin, low AC
-No Ritual Casting

Life Cleric
+All the Healing! Seriously, like ALL OF IT, especially with the spells added via UA
+Channel Divinity to preserve spell slots
+Heavy Armor AND Shields, high AC
+d8 HD, don't be afraid about going near the front line
+Ritual Casting
+Heal myself a bit when I heal others
-Cleric Spells Only
-No Metamagic

I think the Life Cleric is quite better at... Well, obviously, healing. The Sorc is better at buffing / debuffing.

Any thoughts?

[Sigreid]

I would personally select Abjuration wizard. Not only does it seem to mesh well with the hobgoblin warrior motif, but in addition to normal buffing you, by level 6, gain the ability to shield an ally from damage, keeping them in the fight longer.

[Sparky McDibben]

I would personally select Abjuration wizard. Not only does it seem to mesh well with the hobgoblin warrior motif, but in addition to normal buffing you, by level 6, gain the ability to shield an ally from damage, keeping them in the fight longer.

I was going to post a link to Ludic's Iron Wizard build, but looks like Sigreid already mentioned it! :)

If you're married to the life cleric or sorcerer choice, I would recommend life cleric. In Avernus, having a ton of buffing magic, the ability to cast protection from evil and good, spirit guardians, and bless will be invaluable. You might play it as, "Show me your worth, you apes!" Your spells act as trying to inspire these poor humans to the heights of martial efficacy you expect. In other words, a cross between a Starship Troopers* drill instructor and the Eberron goblinoids. After all, it's not the humans fault they weren't born as hobgoblins.

*Specifically the book, not the movies.

[micahaphone]

If you're looking to still be beefy and buff, I agree with abjuration wizard, starts with a13 in dex, take the Medium armored feat at level 4, and be a wizard with 19 AC and good con.

Or if you prefer the D8 hit die of clerics, Order Domain fits your character nicely and is a bit more buff focused than life cleric. Still nets you heavy armor, too

[moonfly7]

Try artificer. They're all about support and they get some great boosts

[Eldariel]

The difference between d6 and d8 is honestly just one HP per level. That's...pretty irrelevant. Even d6 and d12 at max HP first level and average rounded up (4 for d6, 7 for d12) for the other levels with both at 16 Con is going to be like 142 vs 205 on level 20 for 63 HP for d6 having 30 % less HP, and that's the highest HD difference in the game (significant, but not gamebreaking). The relative difference gets smaller as your Con gets higher; 20 Con has 182 vs 245, which is about 25,7 %. And that's before we account for temporary HP, which further makes the relative difference less crucial.

In short, don't stare at the HD, it just doesn't matter all that much.

[CTurbo]

I think the Divine Soul Sorc with a small Bard dip is the best support character in 5e.

It's no wonder the Hobgoblin's stats that it gets pushed into the Wizard/Artificer roll, and either of those would be a fine choice, but I say be different and choose Divine Soul.

Take 1 Bard level early and 1 more later. Max Cha, take Inspiring Leader, Ritual Caster(Wizard), and either Tough or Moderately Armored late if you feel you need to be tougher.

You'll have a lot more spell versatility than a normal Sorc and also be able to cast both Wizard and Bard rituals.

I say Sorc 18/Bard 2 because you want as many sorcy points as possible, 9th level spells, and the 18th level Divine Soul feature is strong, but Sorc 14/Lore Bard 6 would be really strong too. You give up 9th level spells but gain short rest d8 inspiration dice, and Magic Secrets as your capstone.

[Sigreid]

Something. I think should be considered more often. Healing doesn't prevent a large hit from putting a character in the ground. Damage prevention can.

[jaappleton]

Something. I think should be considered more often. Healing doesn't prevent a large hit from putting a character in the ground. Damage prevention can.

Damage prevention in 5E is more economically sound (regarding how much Healing spells can heal for VS their spell slot cost) than casting healing spells. This is incredibly true. Even with Life Domain, enemies pretty much hit for more than what can be healed for.

And being a healer of any sort is reactionary...

Hmm.

[Bosh]

Healing isn't usually the best form of support. For example a glamour bard with an order cleric dip isn't especially good at healing but is HUGE when it comes to support.

[kazaryu]

I have a character in mind for an upcoming Avernus game.

A lawful neutral Hobgoblin that's more than willing to accompany the party because if anyone is going to take over the world, its Goblinoids and NOT Devils! And maybe the non-Goblinoids can prove their usefulness, the lazy good-for-nothings...

I want to be a support caster. But I'm unsure as to what's superior: Healing & support, or buffing / debuffing?

So, here's my question:

Divine Soul Sorc, or Life Domain Cleric?

(We ARE playing with the Psionics UA and the Class Variant UA)

Divine Soul
+Twin buffs & debuffs
+Unerring Metamagic to roll with Advantage
+Access to both spell lists
+Empowered Healing
+Saving throw bonus with Favored of the Gods
+Gets the new Psychic spells from UA, so good not-resisted spells & Mind Sliver to impact enemy saves
+Constitution saving throw proficiency
-d6, very squishy
-Only Light Armor via Hobgoblin, low AC
-No Ritual Casting

Life Cleric
+All the Healing! Seriously, like ALL OF IT, especially with the spells added via UA
+Channel Divinity to preserve spell slots
+Heavy Armor AND Shields, high AC
+d8 HD, don't be afraid about going near the front line
+Ritual Casting
+Heal myself a bit when I heal others
-Cleric Spells Only
-No Metamagic

I think the Life Cleric is quite better at... Well, obviously, healing. The Sorc is better at buffing / debuffing.

Any thoughts?

you forgot to mention the clerics versatile spell list (i.e. they can change their entire list on a long rest)

to give a TL:DR

cleric is going to be much better at general support. in particular damage mitigation style supporting. specifically because they can change their spells to match the situation if they have the preparation time, they can also prepare more spells than a sorcerer knows. which means in general they're going to be better able to cover niche situations.

sorcerer is going to be better at picking a specific method of supporting and be better at it. (in particular because of their metamagic). additionally having access to the sorc spell lists means that they have access to options clerics don't. however, they have reduced versatility. unless there's something in the class UA that changes that.....idk my internet doesn't like me d/l things right now

[Theaitetos]

I think the Divine Soul Sorc with a small Bard dip is the best support character in 5e.

Take 1 Bard level early and 1 more later. Max Cha, take Inspiring Leader, Ritual Caster(Wizard), and either Tough or Moderately Armored late if you feel you need to be tougher.

You'll have a lot more spell versatility than a normal Sorc and also be able to cast both Wizard and Bard rituals.

If you do that, I'd recommend taking Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) instead of Ritual Caster (Wizard).



Divine Soul Sorc, or Life Domain Cleric?

I'm a sorcerer fanboy, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. The Divine Soul is just much, much better! :smallbiggrin:



Life Cleric
+All the Healing! Seriously, like ALL OF IT, especially with the spells added via UA

The Divine Soul gets the same spells added via UA. There's not a single spell a cleric can cast, that a DS can't cast (except for special Domain spells sometimes), so the auras, the smites, Power Word Heal, … are on the table for the DS.

I think the main "+" about the Divine Soul you forgot is: Flying! That's not just cool, it makes you better at surviving things and keeping a safe distance. Flying through a dungeon with Extended Spirit Guardians is not to be underestimated!

And the main "–" about the DS you forgot is: low amount of spells known. You can now always change a single spell (of the same level) with a long rest, but it's still a very limiting feature.

That's one of the reasons I suggest dipping 1 or 3 levels into Warlock (Hexblade), as it's just too powerful to ignore:
1) Every martial proficiency but heavy armor, Eldritch Blast [force damage] + 1 cantrip, 2 spells known [Shield], 1 x short-rest 1st-lvl spell-slot [there's your Channel Divinity spell-slot preservation], Hexblade's Curse [a little heal for you], use CHA as weapon ability modifier
3) Familiar, Pact Boon (Chain or Tome), 2 more spells known, 2 x 2nd-level short-rest spell-slots, 2 invocations

One level dip is so cheap, doesn't even cost you an ASI/feat, or a (real) capstone, or any multiclass MADness. The delay to spell progression is negligible. And with a force damage cantrip you never have to worry about resistances/immunities again and can use all your other cantrips for support/buffs – though I would still take Sacred Flame as a saving-throw based, radiant damage cantrip.

The 3-level dip is a bigger cost, and the main benefit are the short-rest 2nd-level spell-slots, and the amazing Pact Boon: An invisible familiar who can deliver all of your (many!) cleric touch spells (Cure Wounds just got ranged!), scout ahead, or even blend in (Imp) to the Avernus crowd is invaluable. The Tome pact gives you an ordinary familiar, but all 1st- and 2nd-level rituals in the game, as well as 3 cantrips (even druid ones).


The twinning of spells makes even healing better than that of a Life Cleric's, especially since it can also be Empowered if the roll is bad. This is especially valuable with low-level spell-slots (1&2), as it's cheap to twin, and with very high-level spell slots (7+), because you only have 1 spell-slot of 7th, 8th, and 9th level. And twinning Resurrection is only half the gold, if you like coin. :smallcool:

If you are interested in "buffering" damage over healing it, there's a cool build you can try: The Passive Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23910069&postcount=95). I'd change some things, e.g. since the new UA adds more spells like Aura of Vitality, that is godly with Extended, so you don't ever need the Quickened metamagic. That build uses Variant Humans, but Inspiring Leader can be taken at lvl4 (and War Caster isn't necessary or can be delayed); the last 2 feats are just +2 CON bonuses, which the Hobgoblin has for free, so it's just changing things around.

p.s.: A cleric has trouble staying away from the front lines as many of his spells are touch-range and heavy armor would then require him to go STR13 or STR15 to avoid the movement penalty. Therefore having only access to medium armor is not that much a penalty when going DS +1lvl of Hexblade. And a familiar can change the Touch range problematic (or the Distant Spell metamagic).

[CTurbo]

I'm curious why you would recommend Ritual Caster Sorc over Wiz

[Theaitetos]

I'm curious why you would recommend Ritual Caster Sorc over Wiz

You're a sorcerer, right? :smallbiggrin:

Well, if you want a familiar, multiclass in Warlock is much better, and if you don't mind going without one then I prefer it in this case. Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) has 15 spells, Ritual Caster (Wizard) has 20, let's compare the 2 options:

Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) & Ritual Caster (Wizard) have 7 spells in common:

Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Augury
Gentle Repose
Feign Death
Water Breathing
Divination


Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) has 8 spells exclusively:

Ceremony
Detect Poison & Disease
Purify Food & Drink
Silence
Meld into Stone
Water Walk
Commune
Forbiddance



Ritual Caster (Wizard) has 13 spells exclusively:

Alarm
Find Familiar
Identify
Illusory Script
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Magic Mouth
Skywrite
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Phantom Steed
Contact Other Plane
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Drawmij's Instant Summons


Edit:
I marked Augury & Divination because these have only been added to the wizard spell list in the UA Class Feature Variants. If you don't play with this UA, then Augury & Divination will only be available to the Ritual Caster (Sorcerer).

[MrStabby]

Cleric.

Now some of this may also depend on your party -are roles covered, is there competition for the same equipment etc...

Heavy armour, shields to start with. This is easy to underestimate as a bit of a passive ability that you rarely actually see happening.

Wisdom as the casting stat. So it may depend on the balance between roleplay and roll-play as to how important charisma is, but wisdom is a great, great stat for its role in boosting perception. Again,this is easy to overlook.

The spell lists - well think of the spells that make sorcerer good. Now take away the ones already on the cleric list. Now take away the ones that are likely to suck in Avernus. Now take away the ones that whilst good, are going to have something that is more generally useful at the same level that supersedes it, now take away the spells that are there to make up for a weakness the cleric doesn't have (like mage armour or shield). Is what you have left worth selecting a sorcerer for? Is it worth the cleric flexibility?

Rituals are good. An occasional divination is pretty handy. Lots of little things that the cleric can do better that slip beneath the radar sometimes.

Cleric domains are powerful. Now life isn't my first pick but the healing focus will be appreciated - if only because it conserves enough resources to let you focus on doing the fun stuff.

Have you considered other domains? Order rocks pretty hard in the support role (especially if you have martial buddies), arcana does as well - especially if you expect to face fiends, fey, elementals or celestials or if you expect to have a lot of hostile debuffs cast on party members.

[solidork]

Damage prevention in 5E is more economically sound (regarding how much Healing spells can heal for VS their spell slot cost) than casting healing spells. This is incredibly true. Even with Life Domain, enemies pretty much hit for more than what can be healed for.

And being a healer of any sort is reactionary...

Hmm.

One of the big exceptions to this is the Life Cleric channel divinity. It's pretty much designed to pick someone up from 0 to a substantial amount, up to half their hit points. By the time you're getting the Heal spell, you'll have 2 short rest regenerating CDs that heal for almost as much (so long as they're very low when you use them).

[diplomancer]

Artificer alchemist seems to me a class designed entirely for support, and it meshes well with Hobgoblin. Worth a thought

[jaappleton]

Artificer alchemist seems to me a class designed entirely for support, and it meshes well with Hobgoblin. Worth a thought

.....Hm.

I rolled stats, and no BS, there's two 18s in there. Lowest is a 13.

Its why I can go off-the-wall a bit with my race choice.

But Artificer... Hm. Certainly unique. I've typically disliked the class as its so bonus action heavy that I can't squeeze good martial power out of it, but I hadn't considered it for really leaning into the support role.

Let me take a closer look.

[diplomancer]

.....Hm.

I rolled stats, and no BS, there's two 18s in there. Lowest is a 13.

Its why I can go off-the-wall a bit with my race choice.

But Artificer... Hm. Certainly unique. I've typically disliked the class as its so bonus action heavy that I can't squeeze good martial power out of it, but I hadn't considered it for really leaning into the support role.

Let me take a closer look.

Minor spoiler about Descent into Avernus

I have heard it's very hard to get magic items once the party goes to Avernus. Artificer could be very helpful in that situation, your party is going to love you, and you get to showcase the superiority of goblinoid culture

[jaappleton]

somewhat minor spoiler, but still... I have heard it's very hard to get magic items once the party goes to Avernus. Artificer could be very helpful in that situation

I've been the one mainly responsible for warning people about that here on GitP. :smalltongue:

[diplomancer]

.....Hm.

I rolled stats, and no BS, there's two 18s in there. Lowest is a 13.

Its why I can go off-the-wall a bit with my race choice.

But Artificer... Hm. Certainly unique. I've typically disliked the class as its so bonus action heavy that I can't squeeze good martial power out of it, but I hadn't considered it for really leaning into the support role.

Let me take a closer look.

The artificer in general already feels like a support class to me. A lot of its unique power is in the infusions, which can be tailored to your party's needs. They also have many typical support spells. The alchemist feels like the weakest subclass, but I believe that is because it's abilities are geared to help your comrades, not yourself. It's also not as bonus action heavy as the other subclasses, you will probably be handing out your elixirs before any combat.

Finally, it might be worth to dip two levels into some full spellcasting classes, as that would give you access to slots 2 levels earlier. Also worth considering, I think. Take one level of artificer, 2 levels of Wiz (many possible good subclasses here), and that will give you a familiar to go around the battlefield giving elixirs to your allies, as well as more cantrips (including mind sliver) and the shield spell for any eventuality (since Alchemists are the only artificers that don't get it). Or maybe 2 levels of life cleric, if you want to go more into the healing role.

Disclaimer: I am mostly spitballing ideas here, I have not seen the Artificer in play, am just going by what I have read from the class, and working from the assumption that it is well balanced enough with the PHB classes.

[stoutstien]

Surprised no chat on the grave cleric. In the AL environment it is a beast at support. Max healing on targets at 0 HP, cancel crits, and giving out vulnerability to a hard hitting ally is a neat package on top of the already powerful cleric chassis.

[jaappleton]

Surprised no chat on the grave cleric. In the AL environment it is a beast at support. Max healing on targets at 0 HP, cancel crits, and giving out vulnerability to a hard hitting ally is a neat package on top of the already powerful cleric chassis.

Grave is near the top of my list as a 'I can't decide, go with the good abilities' option.

(Side Note: Surprisingly amazing option for Avernus? Forge. Fire resistance, can make a magic weapon for free, and not all their bonus spells are Fire based)

[stoutstien]

Grave is near the top of my list as a 'I can't decide, go with the good abilities' option.

(Side Note: Surprisingly amazing option for Avernus? Forge. Fire resistance, can make a magic weapon for free, and not all their bonus spells are Fire based)

Have you looked at order domain yet? Turning a buff spell into an attack from an ally really enhances your support feel with little effort. Plus ba bless is amazing.

[Theaitetos]

Damage prevention in 5E is more economically sound (regarding how much Healing spells can heal for VS their spell slot cost) than casting healing spells. This is incredibly true. Even with Life Domain, enemies pretty much hit for more than what can be healed for.

And being a healer of any sort is reactionary...

Hmm.

OK, I have an idea for great damage prevention.

It is an adaptation of the aforementioned Passive Soul build, but with some new stuff from the UA:CFV, that you're using. So basically we have the same build, but we start with Fighter at level 1 and take the Fighting Style: Interception. We ditch War Caster and as our first two ASIs we take Inspiring Leader (as usual) & Heavy Armor Master (new). With the usual spells – Sanctuary, Warding Bond, Aid, … – we can now stand right behind our allies and mitigate a lot of damage.

Example, our warded ally gets hit for 20dmg, we use our Interception reaction and reduce it by 1d10 + proficiency dmg (~9), resulting in the ally taking 11dmg; then apply the resistance, so our ally receives only 5dmg. We receive the 5dmg as well, but due to HAM it drops to 2dmg and our resistance halves that to 1dmg. We turned 20dmg down to 6dmg (5 to the ally, 1 to us) without using any of our limited resources beyond the basic buffs.

Interception works only once per round (Reaction), but Heavy Armor Master & Warding Bond & Blade Ward works all the time, so even if there's a second attack for 20dmg, it would get reduced to 13dmg in total: 10dmg to our ally & 3dmg to us [ (10-3)/2 ↓]. Most of the damage would therefore be taken by the temporary hitpoints of Inspiring Leader before reaching the additional Aid hitpoints. So it might even take more than a round for the enemy to actually start chipping at our allies' real hitpoints.

Others in your party might even be compelled to take Interception or HAM too, in lieu of higher AC Fighting Styles or feats. Our own safety would be substantial as well, playing a good tank, with heavy armor + shield + heavy armor master + blade ward + Sanctuary. Saving rolls beyond Sanctuary are covered by decent stats, the Divine Soul's Favored by the Gods, and the Hobgoblin's Save Face feat.