Multiple questions about archery [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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bean illus

2020-01-04, 07:42 PM

denthor

2020-01-04, 07:51 PM

1. Say you have a +2 strength bow so it takes a 14 or 15 strength to use effectively. Your arrow will 1d8+2. If you have 16 or higher strength your arrow does 1d8+2.

If you have a 10 strength you can still shoot the bow you just can not draw back to bow for full potential arrow does 1d8.

2 you have a 10 strength get a bulls strength to a 14 strength if your bow is normal no help. If it is a strength bow you get full potential.

Elves

2020-01-04, 08:16 PM

magic9mushroom

2020-01-04, 08:46 PM

You're also supposed to take a -2 penalty if you don't have a high enough Str.

I would ask the DM about making composite bow a single item that scales to the wielder's Strength. "Strength ratings" on them are an unnecessary pain (even when it comes to things like treasure). Or just make str to damage a default trait of archery.

Bow of the Wintermoon (MIC) has a magically-adjusting Strength rating. I'm sure there are a couple of others out there.

The Strength ratings are because that's how archery actually works, and 3e likes its verisimilitude.

bean illus

2020-01-04, 09:16 PM

Bow of the Wintermoon (MIC) has a magically-adjusting Strength rating. I'm sure there are a couple of others out there.
.

I'm having trouble finding others. The only wintermoon bow I find has an elf prerequisite.

Clementx

2020-01-05, 03:44 PM

The Strength ratings are because that's how archery actually works, and 3e likes its verisimilitude.
And why don't adventurers have to cut 2 inches off the ends of quarterstaves they loot from orcs, which are slightly taller? Or rivet in mail inserts on the shoulders to let the dwarf fit into the human chain shirt?

For some reason, 3e got really specific. I just have composite and normal bows. Less realistic for poundage of draw weights, but you don't assign a different cutting value to sabers of slightly different curvature, either.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-01-05, 04:19 PM

1-3. Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is the answer, it automatically works with any Str bonus.

4. Probably not, but if you move the Scout levels up you can put Swift Hunter at 6th, Improved Critical at 9th, and GMS and IPS both at 12th. However, skirmish damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit as it's extra dice, so probably not worth even trying.

5. "Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen." If it doesn't currently deal piercing or slashing damage, Keen has no effect.

6. Yes, Greater Manyshot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) takes a standard action just like Manyshot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot), so you can move either before or after you shoot.

7. You don't exactly need to move after you shoot, you just need to move before you shoot to be able to use Skirmish, so Greater Manyshot is the solution.

8. Shot on the Run (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun) but it's lame. This is unnecessary anyway with Greater Manyshot.

Regarding 7-8, the idea behind using Travel Devotion is that you need to full attack to make multiple attacks that can each add precision damage such as skirmish, and you can't normally move and full attack in one round. Travel Devotion is only necessary for enabling you to move and full attack in the same round. If you have Greater Manyshot, you don't even need Travel Devotion because you can move normally to enable skirmish, and then Greater Manyshot to get multiple precision-damage attacks as a standard action. You only need one or the other, if you have Greater Manyshot don't worry about also including Travel Devotion because it's redundant.

Additionally, if your DM allows the variant rule, you can take up to two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)), and each one you take gives you an additional feat. They can only be taken during character creation, but if you're creating a character higher than 1st level the feats granted by them can be obtained at any of the levels you're starting play with. So you may not even need to take any Fighter levels, if it was just to gain that extra feat, as more Ranger and/or Scout instead of Fighter will be better for you in the long run.

There's a feat called Sword of the Arcane Order which allows you to prepare and cast Wizard spells from your Ranger spell slots, which can be a huge benefit for buffs and utility, especially on a Mystic Ranger. A Frostblood Half-Orc from Dragon Magic gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level, which also says if you would gain Endurance later (such as from Ranger) you can instead take any feat you qualify for at that level. Mystic Ranger gets Endurance as a bonus feat at the 4th level, and Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4, so a Frostblood Half-Orc Mystic Ranger basically gets it as a bonus feat at the earliest level it could be obtained.

You can also use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in Races of Destiny p150 to count as a human instead of counting as an orc for meeting prerequisites (you still count as a half-orc in addition to either of those). This allows you to take the regional feat Magical Training in PGtF to get a few 0-level spell slots and a spellbook which you've added a few 0-level Wizard spells to. Since you prepare and cast Wizard spells from a spellbook, per the Rules Compendium p160, you can learn more Wizard spells and add them to that spellbook just like a Wizard does. So you won't even need to borrow someone else's spellbook to prepare spells via Sword of the Arcane Order.

Furthermore, due to the wording of the Frostblood Half-Orc's Endurance bonus feat, at any Scout level that grants you a bonus feat you can select Endurance and then replace it with any feat you qualify for. So that also allows you to completely ignore the limited list of feats that can be selected as Scout bonus feats. So replace that Fighter level with Scout 4, pick Endurance, then replace it with Improved Precise Shot.

Gauntlet

2020-01-06, 05:49 AM

8. Shot on the Run (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun) but it's lame. This is unnecessary anyway with Greater Manyshot.

Getting a fly speed lets you take Flyby Attack instead, which does basically the same thing but with none of the prerequisites (and still works when you're doing things other than attack with a ranged weapon). It's still less relevant with Greater Manyshot, but the ability to move-shoot-move is reasonably handy, and it's a lot less hard to swallow when it costs you one feat rather than forcing you to take Dodge and Mobility.

Ashtagon

2020-01-06, 06:28 AM

By RAW, composite bows work as follows...

Strength < bow's rating: -2 on attack rolls, Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, Strength modifier to damage rolls.
Strength = bow's rating: Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, Strength modifier to damage rolls.
Strength > bow's rating: Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, bow rating to damage rolls.

Personally, I houserule it as follows:

"composite bows" do not exist. In toxology circles, the term refers to a method of construction rather than a level of power, and it's perfectly reasonable to have composite bows (made with multiple layers of materials bound or glued together) that are weak, or self bows (made with a single piece of wood that are strong (such as the traditional English longbow). Instead, bows are divided into bows (short and long) and mighty bows (short and long).

"Compound bows" are an entirely different beast, first created in the 1960s. They feature an array of pulleys that any gnome would be proud of.

Characters with a Strength penalty cannot use a mighty bow at all.

Mighty Archer (Feat)

Prerequisite: Strength 13, BAB +1.

Benefit: You deal 1d8 damage with mighty shortbows, or 1d10 with mighty longbows. In addition, you may add your Strength bonus to damage rolls with a mighty bow.

Normal: Mighty bows function as regular bows in your hands.

Special: Fighters can select this as a fighter bonus feat.

Zaq

2020-01-06, 01:19 PM

A RAW solution to the “changing STR bonus” thing is to get proficiency with the bone bow instead, which I think is in Frostburn. It’s got the same “add STR bonus to damage” language as the composite bow but it doesn’t have specific STR ratings.

Feats are precious and archers are feat-starved, but if you’re planning to have a variable STR mod (e.g., you’re a barbarian archer, you’ve got a party buffer who doesn’t always win initiative/doesn’t have all-day durations, etc.) and your GM is unwilling to handwave away the stupid STR rating thing, it’s a worthwhile investment. (Not really efficient if you’re only worried about enemy-inflicted penalties unless you’re up against a metric hellaton of STR-damaging foes for the whole campaign.)

While we’re talking about stupid finicky rules related to bows and STR, remember that your STR bonus only applies to damage if you’re using a composite bow and you meet or exceed the STR rating (or if you’re using a bone bow), but your STR penalty always applies to damage with a bow, because screw you, that’s why. I encourage this rule to be bent/ignored, but it is RAW.

bean illus

2020-01-08, 05:39 PM

A RAW solution to the “changing STR bonus” thing is to get proficiency with the bone bow instead, which I think is in Frostburn. It’s got the same “add STR bonus to damage” language as the composite bow but it doesn’t have specific STR ratings.

Does a bone bow need it's own EWP?

1-3. Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is the answer, it automatically works with any Str bonus.

Thanks for your time, but isn't Hanks bow from a cartoon? And underpriced? Either way it's a no at our table

4. Probably not, but if you move the Scout levels up you can put Swift Hunter at 6th, Improved Critical at 9th, and GMS and IPS both at 12th. However, skirmish damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit as it's extra dice, so probably not worth even trying.

GMS and splitting and almost make it tempting. The ability to fire 10+ arrows a round means crits will happen, at x3. I could see 60+ dam per crit once per round.

5. "Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen." If it doesn't currently deal piercing or slashing damage, Keen has no effect. oh, yeah. Of course

7. You don't exactly need to move after you shoot, you just need to move before you shoot to be able to use Skirmish, so Greater Manyshot is the solution.

8. Shot on the Run (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun) but it's lame. This is unnecessary anyway with Greater Manyshot.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, GMS let's you skirmish into enemy territory. Shot on the run allows skirmishing and then moving out, I think, but cost too many feats?

Regarding 7-8, the idea behind using Travel Devotion is that you need to full attack to make multiple attacks that can each add precision damage such as skirmish, and you can't normally move and full attack in one round. Travel Devotion is only necessary for enabling you to move and full attack in the same round. If you have Greater Manyshot, you don't even need Travel Devotion because you can move normally to enable skirmish, and then Greater Manyshot to get multiple precision-damage attacks as a standard action. You only need one or the other, if you have Greater Manyshot don't worry about also including Travel Devotion because it's redundant. hmmm.

Manyshot let's you shoot one person, standard. GMS let's you shoot anybody, standard. Travel devo let's you move as a swift action, then GMS as a standard, then move (and hide)? Right?

That sounds really handy for a skirmisher. Am i overestimating it's utility?

There's a feat called Sword of the Arcane Order which allows you to prepare and cast Wizard spells from your Ranger spell slots, which can be a huge benefit for buffs and utility, especially on a Mystic Ranger. A Frostblood Half-Orc from Dragon Magic gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level, which also says if you would gain Endurance later (such as from Ranger) you can instead take any feat you qualify for at that level. Mystic Ranger gets Endurance as a bonus feat at the 4th level, and Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4, so a Frostblood Half-Orc Mystic Ranger basically gets it as a bonus feat at the earliest level it could be obtained.

You can also use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in Races of Destiny p150 to count as a human instead of counting as an orc for meeting prerequisites (you still count as a half-orc in addition to either of those). This allows you to take the regional feat Magical Training in PGtF to get a few 0-level spell slots and a spellbook which you've added a few 0-level Wizard spells to. Since you prepare and cast Wizard spells from a spellbook, per the Rules Compendium p160, you can learn more Wizard spells and add them to that spellbook just like a Wizard does. So you won't even need to borrow someone else's spellbook to prepare spells via Sword of the Arcane Order.

Furthermore, due to the wording of the Frostblood Half-Orc's Endurance bonus feat, at any Scout level that grants you a bonus feat you can select Endurance and then replace it with any feat you qualify for. So that also allows you to completely ignore the limited list of feats that can be selected as Scout bonus feats. So replace that Fighter level with Scout 4, pick Endurance, then replace it with Improved Precise Shot.

That ... is ... a really ... nice setup. But ...

I always fear Mystra will find out that she's not really my favorite. When Seventh Day Mystrans of Later Day Saints show up at my door, i fear that i can't hide my disdain for their pompousness.

Honestly, that rocks. I would probably do it, for GMW and greater invis (and more), if the DM let me /etc.

But what if someone wants to not be half orc of Mystra?

Getting a fly speed lets you take Flyby Attack instead, which does basically the same thing but with none of the prerequisites (and still works when you're doing things other than attack with a ranged weapon). It's still less relevant with Greater Manyshot, but the ability to move-shoot-move is reasonably handy, and it's a lot less hard to swallow when it costs you one feat rather than forcing you to take Dodge and Mobility.
Noted. Thanks

bean illus

2020-03-20, 03:03 PM

What's the best weapon for mounted archery? I've heard long bow, and composite.

Is the "elvencraft" bow/staff then acceptable in size?

Can the bowstaff be made composite?

Does the bowstaff threaten?

Anyone have stats on it?

Biggus

2020-03-20, 04:27 PM

Or rivet in mail inserts on the shoulders to let the dwarf fit into the human chain shirt?

You let PCs wear armor from different species? Without any penalty or cost to have it refitted?

bean illus

2020-03-20, 08:36 PM

Well I found the stats. All weapons known as 'elven' or etc are exotic. ... and ...

An elvencraft bow is thicker and heavier than a normal bow. An elvencraft shortbow functions as a club when wielded as a melee weapon. An elvencraft longbow functions as a quarterstaff when wielded as a melee weapon. The wielder incurs no penalty on attack rolls when using an elvencraft bow as a melee weapon.

A character wielding an elvencraft bow can freely interchange melee and ranged attacks during the same round. When wielding an elvencraft bow, the user threatens the squares around him no matter how he last used the weapon.

Magical enhancements to an elvencraft bow only affect its use as a bow. Enhancements to the melee capabilities of the weapon must be added separately.

An elvencraft bow costs 300 gp more than a normal bow.

It's just sturdier and heavier (doesn't say how heavy). I suppose a DM could say 'martials can't have nice things', but I see no inherent reason it couldn't be composite.

The Viscount

2020-03-20, 09:06 PM

I agree, there's no reason an elvencraft bow couldn't be composite. It does threaten, which is why I always get one when I give characters a bow.

For reasons I don't understand, composite longbows can be used while mounted even though regular longbows cannot. Since longbow stats are better than shortbow, I'd go composite longbow for mounted. You need both hands to use it anyway. Pretty much the only reasons to use a shortbow are if the size is somehow a concern, if your proficiencies are restricted like rogue, or if, most importantly, your concept demands it.

animewatcha

2020-03-21, 12:28 AM

You know of the mystic ranger which will help with the spell slots ( see if your DM considers half-caster level via ranger or full because RAI ). Someone mentioned Frostblood Half-orc. Another route is going elf. For arcane archer ( unless you get can get DM to waive the elf/half-elf race requirement ). 2 levels in and you can get the use a standard action to launch a fireball via arrow ability ( as a standard action ).

A few things that will that will help when combined are a level of wizard, and using the Sub-level of shooting star combined with sword of the arcane order for super high caster level. There's the double ranged attack weapon enhancement that is in Champions of Ruin I believe. Also has arrowsplit spell ( 1d4+1 arrows ) stackable with the double ranged attack enhancement. There is also reserves of strength feat from dragonlance campaign setting to uncap dice Dmg spells, but stuns for a bit.

Let's start combining.

First, arrowsplit 1d4+1 arrows, let's easy. 1+1 = 2. This then doubles due to weapon enhancement to be 4 arrows. You are using the arcane archer ability to twong a fireball. Because of the wording of arcane archer, you are now twonging 4 fireballs. Each of these fireballs arrow can deal 10d6 fire damage per fireball. 40d6 so far. Throw Reserves of strength so the dice cap of 10 per fireball no longer applies. You are now opening a portal to the plane of fire from damage. Remember this is with minimum dice rolling from arrowsplit of 4 arrows. You can potentially roll 5 to start with, doubling to 10 arrows, etc. etc.

This gets even better. Levels of scout for skirmish damage to each arrow, but even moresooo ( and expensive )....
+1 spell-storing arrows. Able to store 1 up-to-3rd-level spell in it. Like a fireball. So now each of these fireball arrows that you are launching each are a +1 fireball-stored arrow with rider fireballs from arcane archer..
If you can....Store reserves of strength fireballs in spell-storing.

Given all the above, you have a somewhat standing for asking DM for a rule of cool request for destroying an artifact via fireball.

Saint-Just

2020-03-21, 12:38 AM

For reasons I don't understand, composite longbows can be used while mounted even though regular longbows cannot.

It's historical realism\verisimilitude. Even if you stat larger examples of recurve bows used by Eurasian nomads as a composite shortbow (I personally would use a composite longbow) you always have a Japanese bows which are very long and at the same time optimised for the use on horseback.

DarkSoul

2020-03-21, 05:20 AM

I started to build a bow, and i got too many questions.

1. If archer has a compound bow and takes a strength penalty, he can't use the bow? (Carry a few potions of lesser restoration!)
2. If archer has strength buffed, he can't apply it to bow?
3. Are there ways around that?

4. Can a keen quiver be had?
5. Does keen apply to force?

6. Manyshot is lame. GMS is standard, so ... stand in one place and shoot whoever you want with unique att, dam, and crit, but move either before or after?
7. Travel devotion fixes that totally? Split move any way wanted and GMS anybody?
8. Solution to archer not having travel devo?

If your strength modifier goes below the rating of the bow, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
No. The strength rating of a composite bow is static, set when the bow is created.
Yes. Hank's Energy Bow, which you've already mentioned isn't allowed. The other option is the Bow of the Wintermoon, as has been mentioned. You were incorrect in assuming that you're required to be an elf to use it. You're required to be an elf worshiper of Corellon to use the relic power, which isn't the important part. The important part is the scaling strength rating, which always works. Otherwise, if you deconstruct the Bow of the Wintermoon's cost, you'll see that the scaling strength ability adds 1000 gp to the market price of the bow. Based on that, you may be able to simply ask to pay 1000 gold to add it to any bow.
No. You could make a keen bow, however, and the enchantment should transfer to the arrows.
Force arrows are still arrows.
Both Manyshot feats are standard actions. You can move before or after using one. For a skirmisher, you'll move before shooting.
Travel Devotion doesn't matter as much for a manyshot archer. There are two basic archery styles: skirmish archery and volley archery. Skirmish archery uses move + manyshot, while volley archery uses Rapid Shot/Improved Rapid Shot from a more stationary position. Volley archery doesn't get the bonus damage from skirmish, but it also doesn't rely on the extra skirmish damage because it gets an extra attack instead. A skirmish archer will never get 5 attacks in a Manyshot, but a volley archer will get 5 attacks with IRS. How much that is worth depends on the character. All that said, Travel Devotion is the best of both worlds because it allows skirmish damage to activate on a full attack+rapid shot.
No Travel Devotion? Be a manyshot archer so you can skirmish and still get multiple attacks. With Travel Devotion, using Rapid Shot will send more arrows downrange.

Regarding Mystic Ranger: Because they lose their animal companion, ask your DM if you can replace the Magic Fang spells in the Mystic Ranger spell list with Magic Weapon spells.

Finally, if you want to be an archer, look into a cleric archer before you settle 100% on a Swift Hunter. I was much happier with a cleric archer than I was a mystic ranger. Being a cleric also gives you a turning pool to sacrifice for more daily uses of Travel Devotion.

bean illus

2020-03-21, 01:19 PM

... (almost like a mini handbook) ...

Very nice recap of the thread. Thanks.

Clementx

2020-03-21, 10:52 PM

You let PCs wear armor from different species? Without any penalty or cost to have it refitted?
Bilbo got to wear a mythril chain shirt he just found because it matched his size category, and sure as Sauron want made for a hobbit. OG points there. Also, ever look at 3e illustrations? No one is wearing pants that match the phylum of their shirt's owners, based on the mismatch.

And, no, for the same reason I don't assign penalties or charge them for needing new bootlaces. They get a monthly upkeep to refill their adventurer's pack with chalk and rations, pay hirelings, and feed horses.

Biggus

2020-03-22, 08:01 AM

You could make a keen bow, however, and the enchantment should transfer to the arrows.

I don't think you can, Keen isn't on the list of ranged weapon special abilties. You can make keen arrows though I think.

Bilbo got to wear a mythril chain shirt he just found because it matched his size category, and sure as Sauron want made for a hobbit.

Fair point. A mithril chain shirt is far thinner and more flexible than most other types of armor though.

OG points there. Also, ever look at 3e illustrations? No one is wearing pants that match the phylum of their shirt's owners, based on the mismatch.

OG? Phylum?

And, no, for the same reason I don't assign penalties or charge them for needing new bootlaces. They get a monthly upkeep to refill their adventurer's pack with chalk and rations, pay hirelings, and feed horses.

Bootlaces cost a few copper pieces. I don't make PCs keep track of very cheap items, but getting a suit of full plate altered costs between 200GP and 800GP. That's not a trivial cost, except for an epic level character.

bean illus

2020-03-22, 06:38 PM

Is the Peerless Archer's class ability Fletching worth anything?

1. Do i understand this? You can place any +1 bonus you want on a normal arrow? Bane? Ghost touch?

2. But, if you assume a magic mart world, isn't it still kinda useless?

animewatcha

2020-03-22, 08:13 PM

One thing to keep in mind about Peerless Archer is that it was made in 3.0 when bow enhancement and arrow enhancement bonus ( 1 + 1 = 2 ) for that arrow fired. I don't think it got updated for 3.5. So you gotta invest in the class more to get what you need out of need.

If you are trying to be cheap like the lucky mind arrow ( think 5e's advantage for each arrow fired ), then you can craft 50 lucky arrows for 4lgp. Quite an investment for standalone. A typical entry is probably fighter. However if we go mystic ranger instead and suffer through the necessary feat taxes for more spell slots. If you start going the double range attack weapon enhancement ( can't remember name ) as well as arrowsplit spell.

So you wind up with ( 1d4+1 ) x2 lucky arrows being fired and get more 'chances' for your arrows.

The Viscount

2020-03-23, 12:18 PM

I believe peerless archer is saying that you can make your arrows +1 arrows, with the bonus to attack and damage. Remember that if you want to add special abilities to a magic item they need to be +1 first.

bean illus

2020-03-23, 12:26 PM

tyckspoon

2020-03-23, 02:26 PM

A RAW solution to the “changing STR bonus” thing is to get proficiency with the bone bow instead, which I think is in Frostburn. It’s got the same “add STR bonus to damage” language as the composite bow but it doesn’t have specific STR ratings.

Common misconception, and it would be really nice if it worked that way, but it don't. The text is just 'A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it.' In the absence of any further clarifying text, that just means 'go look up Composite Longbow and use the same rules' - the way a composite longbow applies Strength bonus is that it doesn't, unless you pay for the capacity.

The Viscount

2020-03-23, 03:36 PM

A peerless archer with Fletching +2 could add a +1 property?

I don't think so, since it says "+1 enhancement bonus" and not "special ability" or something more vague, but others might have other opinions.

bean illus

2020-03-23, 06:53 PM

Common misconception, and it would be really nice if it worked that way, but it don't. The text is just 'A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it.' In the absence of any further clarifying text, that just means 'go look up Composite Longbow and use the same rules' - the way a composite longbow applies Strength bonus is that it doesn't, unless you pay for the capacity.

Then, what does a bone bow do? That's different than composite longbow? Anything?

ZamielVanWeber

2020-03-23, 07:13 PM

Then, what does a bone bow do? That's different than composite longbow? Anything?

Bigger hit die and larger range. Not worth the EWP feat, as most exotic weapons aren't.

bean illus

2020-03-23, 07:33 PM

Then, what does a bone bow do? That's different than composite longbow? Anything?

Bigger hit die and larger range. Not worth the EWP feat, as most exotic weapons aren't.

EWP? Bone isn't just a material? It can't just be added to (crafted out of) a different bow?

Is it better though if you have free EWP (Targeteer)?

torrasque666

2020-03-24, 03:45 AM

Bone Bows are the specific bows from Frostburn. They have something similar to Bastard Swords in that they can be used without EWP, but in doing so makes it a full round action. Doesn't get rid of the -4 non-proficiency penalty though.

bean illus

2020-03-29, 08:04 PM

I remember an item or spell that ignored armor. Anyone remember that?

What total attack bonuses are needed at level 20, for a martial

Is +18 BAB +3 str +4 inh +4 tome +4 weapon = 33, just not gonna cut it?
Or
Is +19 +4 str +4 inh +4 tome +5 weapon = 35 absolutely neccessary?

I have tumble to flat foot them, and a +4 bonus if I do, but that's not always.