Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

[TalonOfAnathrax]

The basic idea is similar to troaccid's excellent yearly threads, but this time with a few more restrictions to shake things up :

Spellcasting and Psionic powers do not function, nor do magic items which depend on them (or magic items generated by feats such as Ancestral Relic or Legacy Item feats). Item Familiars cannot take Weapon or Armour properties, but can become sentient and get sentient item abilities and can of course boost your skills.
Invocations, Truenaming, Incarnum, Mysteries, Binds and other (Sp) and (Su) abilities still work - this isn't a ban on magic as a whole
Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power. They may shape it now (choose class levels, etc) and it will slowly happen. Effectively you set your 20 levels now but don't get them all at once.
The number of levels you receive per year corresponds to the Tier of the class you're taking. So a Tier 4 class would get 4 levels per year, and a Tier 3 class would only get 3. You still can't bypass level 20 total - lower Tier classes just get there much faster. Great for back-loaded classes!
Prestige classes are allowed. The number of levels of a PrC you can get per year is unknown (PrCs don't have clear Tiers). Perhaps it will be one level a year for a crazy strong PrC, and perhaps it will be 4 or 5 a year for a wear PrC (one a PrC that fails to change the Tier of a weak class). I'll clarify once your choice is posted in-thread.
You can still earn XP, but can't level from it. It's just there to pay XP costs, etc. Earning XP is done through milestones, and you cannot really predict them. However you are aware of your XP total. Earning XP is never fast, but it does get a little faster when your level increases.
Dragon Magazine content is allowed.
Weird abilities that aren't just class stuff (rituals to create Living Zombies or turn people into Necropolitans, Sculpt Self, etc) will require testing. Taking appropriate skill points is suggested. DCs will generally be very high for this stuff, and/or it may require years of experimentation and various difficult to acquire resources.
Alchemy and similar magical crafting will require components which are difficult to find. You can't just buy things off amazon and expect to do Alchemy or whatever.
This time around, you can have the elite array.
Leadership is allowed, but your cohort will be under the same restrictions as you (no making a Wizard cohort). At least they'll instantly get the levels they're allowed.
Your power-granting dream also comes with a vague warning that no matter what the people of earth choose to do with their new powers, things are coming... I'll post the timeline for that in a few days, so that you can make your choice with nothing more than a vague warning. You don't know what will happen, or how soon it is happening.
You don't know whether or not D&D cosmology exists, or what sent you this dream. However abilities which rely on the Shadow, Etheral and Astral Planes still function.


Tier list, reposted here for convenience :

Tier 1:
Cleric
Druid
Sha’ir
Archivist
Wizard
Shaman
Artificer
Wu Jen
Spontaneous Druid

Tier 2:
Death Master
Generic Spellcaster
Spontaneous Cleric
Urban Druid
Erudite
Psion
Sorcerer
Spirit Shaman
Evangelist
Mystic
Ardent
Dread Necromancer
Beguiler
Favored Soul
Mystic Ranger

Tier 3:
Wilder
Shugenja
Bard
Trickster Spellthief
Jester
Swordsage
Totemist
Crusader
Psychic Warrior
Warmage
Binder
Warlock
Warblade
Dragonfire Adept
Healer
Wild Shape Ranger
Duskblade
Factotum
Lurk
Psychic Rogue

Tier 4:
Wild Monk
Incarnate
Shadowcaster
Rogue
Barbarian
Generic Expert
Generic Warrior
Scout
Spellthief
Paladin
Adept
Ranger
Ninja
Savant
Fighter
Marshal

Tier 5:
Truenamer
Sohei
Hexblade
Monk
Battle Dancer
Divine Mind
Mountebank
Samurai (OA)
Dragon Shaman
Magewright
Swashbuckler
Knight
Noble
Soulborn
Soulknife
Samurai (CW)
Expert

Tier 6:
Aristocrat
Warrior
Commoner

[Elricaltovilla]

In a situation like this, I would probably go Wildshape Ranger > Warshaper > Master of Many Forms and probably take some of those ACFs that remove ranger spellcasting altogether. It's not terribly necessary for the build and since Wild Shape is an Su ability, I still get that and I can focus on cheating out extra SU and SP abilities from the forms I take.

EDIT: Your post doesn't describe how many levels we get per year depending on the tier of our class. You provided a link but I didn't see anything in the thread you linked to describe how many levels we would get.

Would Wildshape Ranger be tier 3 even if it loses spells? Pretty much impossible to get above tier 4 regardless without access to magic of some sort, and without magic there's no magic items so our math is going to drop precipitously.

[Ashtagon]

Incarnate seems the obvious choice here.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

In a situation like this, I would probably go Wildshape Ranger > Warshaper > Master of Many Forms and probably take some of those ACFs that remove ranger spellcasting altogether. It's not terribly necessary for the build and since Wild Shape is an Su ability, I still get that and I can focus on cheating out extra SU and SP abilities from the forms I take.

EDIT: Your post doesn't describe how many levels we get per year depending on the tier of our class. You provided a link but I didn't see anything in the thread you linked to describe how many levels we would get.

Would Wildshape Ranger be tier 3 even if it loses spells? Pretty much impossible to get above tier 4 regardless without access to magic of some sort, and without magic there's no magic items so our math is going to drop precipitously.
Edited the first post to clarify.

The number of levels you get is equal to the Tier of your class. Wildshape Ranger is Tier 3, and for the purpose of this thread Warshaper and Master of Many Forms Tier 3 are also when applied to a Wild Shape Ranger base. The basic combo of "lots of versatility + great damage or defensive potential" is still valid, and Master of Many Forms lets you access more and more types right as the basic Wild Shape starts to decline in power. Assuming you take Wild Shape feats, IMO you're Tier 3 all along. The loss of your tiny amount of Ranger spells isn't enough to make you do down a Tier.
This means that every year, you gain 3 levels. So now you're a Wild Shape Ranger 3, in 2021 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 1, in 2022 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 4, in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 2, in 2024 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 5, in 2025 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 8, and in 2026 you're a in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

[Sereg]

Incarnate seems the obvious choice here.

Agreed. That's what I'd go for. Maybe with a swordsage dip if that's allowed.

[Eldan]

It might actually be interesting to take a weak class under these restrictions. I mean, a Truenamer would be Level 20 in four years, at which point it's one of the strongest classes. A year after that, you're well into epic.

[Elricaltovilla]

Edited the first post to clarify.

The number of levels you get is equal to the Tier of your class. Wildshape Ranger is Tier 3, and for the purpose of this thread Warshaper and Master of Many Forms Tier 3 are also when applied to a Wild Shape Ranger base. The basic combo of "lots of versatility + great damage or defensive potential" is still valid, and Master of Many Forms lets you access more and more types right as the basic Wild Shape starts to decline in power. Assuming you take Wild Shape feats, IMO you're Tier 3 all along. The loss of your tiny amount of Ranger spells isn't enough to make you do down a Tier.
This means that every year, you gain 3 levels. So now you're a Wild Shape Ranger 3, in 2021 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 1, in 2022 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 4, in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 2, in 2024 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 5, in 2025 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 8, and in 2026 you're a in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm tempted to muck around with the progression a bit to try and get a few of the abilities I particularly want earlier, but WS Ranger 4 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 10 to WS Ranger 1 is much less of a headache. Are we all humans still or does our race change too?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

It might actually be interesting to take a weak class under these restrictions. I mean, a Truenamer would be Level 20 in four years, at which point it's one of the strongest classes. A year after that, you're well into epic.
Ah, this ends at level 20. However getting to level 20 fast is certainly very good, and how big is the difference between Tiers, really? Truenamer is rather strong at level 20, too. Not having to slog through mid levels is rather good for a Truenamer.

With an Item Familiar, you can get decent Truespeak skill checks even at level 20.


Thank you for the clarification. I'm tempted to muck around with the progression a bit to try and get a few of the abilities I particularly want earlier, but WS Ranger 4 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 10 to WS Ranger 1 is much less of a headache. Are we all humans still or does our race change too?
How do you qualify for Warshaper without 5 levels of Wild Shape Ranger?
Your race is unchanged unless you somehow get into Shaper of Form or use some other way of changing your race after character creation. Feel free to take a pile of ranks in appropriate skills to research the ritual, and you will eventually be able to turn people into Necropolitan for example (although turning yourself into a Necropolitan seems difficult seeing as the ritual involves dying halfway through, but surely there's some clever way around that that I haven't thought of!).

[Elricaltovilla]

.


How do you qualify for Warshaper without 5 levels of Wild Shape Ranger?
Your race is unchanged unless you somehow get into Shaper of Form or use some other way of changing your race after character creation. Feel free to take a pile of ranks in appropriate skills to research the ritual, and you will eventually be able to turn people into Necropolitan for example (although turning yourself into a Necropolitan seems difficult seeing as the ritual involves dying halfway through, but surely there's some clever way around that that I haven't thought of!).

Because I don't have access to primary sources right now and misremembered how wild shape ranger works. I wouldn't want to bother becoming a necropolitan personally. I prefer Elans for my undying needs, or transferring my consciousness into a warforged body. Those sorts of things are probably outside the scope of my abilities given my class and your restrictions, however.

[White Blade]

Factotum if I'm not feeling like a being a hard ass for all eternity, Monk/Paladin VoP if I am.
Facototum is just Keen Intellect and Font of Inspiration until the stars die. Pick up enough languages to be doing well - ASL, French, Spanish, Chinese at level one.
Monk/Paladin:
Monk 18/Paladin 2, Vow of Poverty -> Vow of Peace. Monk 7 -> Paladin 2 -> Monk 13 -> Monk 18.
2020 White Blade:
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow Of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (1st), Vow of Peace (2nd). Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (3rd), Nimbus of Light (4th).
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Immune to bullets (Vow of Peace), never need to eat or drink.
2021 White Blade
Feats: Gift of Discernment, Lightning Reflexes (6th). Gift Of Fatih (8th). Serenity (9th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Heal. Tumble/Swim on Monk levels (2).
Functionally immune to bombs and most reflex save requirements now.
2022 White Blade
Feats: Intuitive Attack (10th), Stigmata, Able Learner (12th), Exalted Smite (14th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Never have to sleep! Party all night! +27 Diplomacy!
2023 White Blade
Feats: Negotiator (15th), Hands of a Healer (16th), Gift of Grace, Iron Will (18th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Universal translator, my fists can punch through tanks. No longer aging at the respectable age of thirty.
Vow of Purity just to dump it and we're done in 2024.

[Sinner's Garden]

Warlock/Anima Mage/Hellfire Warlock would be my build of preference. Throw in a bloodline, uncanny trickster and legacy champion for more binding, dip Apostle of the Green Lady if it's kosher (technically homebrew, but referenced in official material makes it close enough to try). Might take a level of another binding class to put my binding level over 20. If I can get some access to, for example, psychic chirurgery or some scaled up versions of Codex Invocare to expand my invocations known, I'd take some levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I'd like to dip Nosomatic Chirurgeon, but it's probably not happening due to racial restrictions. Anyway, there's a full level twenty progression in there somewhere. As usual, I also want to take the Vow of Poverty and use Bestow Curse to remove any actual restrictions on behavior, and contract lycanthropy when possible to bump up my HD over 20 and gain access to epic feats; binder and warlock both have some really swanky ones, you know!

[Menzath]

Huh. I'd probably do something wacky like Divine mind 10/Marshal 7/Binder 3.
For feats, dragon touched, draconic auraX2, and double draconic aura.
That should give me something like 6 stackable auras, and a little binding on the side for fun.

[Kalkra]

Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Factotum if I'm not feeling like a being a hard ass for all eternity, Monk/Paladin VoP if I am.
Facototum is just Keen Intellect and Font of Inspiration until the stars die. Pick up enough languages to be doing well - ASL, French, Spanish, Chinese at level one.
Monk/Paladin:
Monk 18/Paladin 2, Vow of Poverty -> Vow of Peace. Monk 7 -> Paladin 2 -> Monk 13 -> Monk 18.
2020 White Blade:
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow Of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (1st), Vow of Peace (2nd). Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (3rd), Nimbus of Light (4th).
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Immune to bullets (Vow of Peace), never need to eat or drink.
2021 White Blade
Feats: Gift of Discernment, Lightning Reflexes (6th). Gift Of Fatih (8th). Serenity (9th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Heal. Tumble/Swim on Monk levels (2).
Functionally immune to bombs and most reflex save requirements now.
2022 White Blade
Feats: Intuitive Attack (10th), Stigmata, Able Learner (12th), Exalted Smite (14th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Never have to sleep! Party all night! +27 Diplomacy!
2023 White Blade
Feats: Negotiator (15th), Hands of a Healer (16th), Gift of Grace, Iron Will (18th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Universal translator, my fists can punch through tanks. No longer aging at the respectable age of thirty.
Vow of Purity just to dump it and we're done in 2024.
This is an interesting build, thanks for sharing it. You even got the number of levels per Tier exactly right, which I appreciate!
This is a really solid setup actually. It's tough and hard to kill, but it's also very useful day-to-day with excellent Diplomacy skills and even some healing. It also progresses fast and is nicely frontloaded (immune to bullets from year one, nice!), which will prove useful.

I like the fact that despite taking ostensibly "combat" classes (Paladin and Monk aren't exactly known for day-to-day utility if they don't go adventuring) you've avoided being pigeonholed. Excellent Diplomacy and Sense Motive, healing, and even cool parkour skills if that's your jam. AFAIK Tumble can even be monetized, and with that many skill ranks you could even make a career out of it if you don't like your current one.

I'm not quite sure how you get agelessness though. The Monk ability still has you die of old age when your time is up, so it's less agelessness and more really good healthcare :D
For real Immortality, I suggest taking a Flaw and the Wedded to History feat from Dragon Magazine. Not the most elegant method, but it works and I can't see another way for your build to really become ageless (you don't really have much magic or lore skills that could translate into giving yourself any kind of template - although you could spontaneously qualify for Saint easily enough).


Warlock/Anima Mage/Hellfire Warlock would be my build of preference. Throw in a bloodline, uncanny trickster and legacy champion for more binding, dip Apostle of the Green Lady if it's kosher (technically homebrew, but referenced in official material makes it close enough to try). Might take a level of another binding class to put my binding level over 20. If I can get some access to, for example, psychic chirurgery or some scaled up versions of Codex Invocare to expand my invocations known, I'd take some levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I'd like to dip Nosomatic Chirurgeon, but it's probably not happening due to racial restrictions. Anyway, there's a full level twenty progression in there somewhere. As usual, I also want to take the Vow of Poverty and use Bestow Curse to remove any actual restrictions on behavior, and contract lycanthropy when possible to bump up my HD over 20 and gain access to epic feats; binder and warlock both have some really swanky ones, you know!
Well then. There's actually way more than 20 levels in there - there's no way you can fit all that in there. Still, those are a lot of interesting ideas!
Note that Warlock, Nosomatic Chirurgeon (in this context) and Hellfire Warlock are Tier 3, but I'm counting Anima Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Apostle of the Green Lady as Tier 2 classes (so you get 2 levels a year) because they're advancing 2 Tier 3 classes at once (except Initiate, but its class features are incredibly strong anyway). This would be a slow progression build with an awful lot of total power. Full warlock progression with Binding on the side? Very nice, very versatile, and very useful both in and out of combat.
I'll be ruling that Zceryll does work, but that you can't summon spellcasting monsters (Ursinals, etc). Monsters with SLAs and (Su) abilities are fine, of course.

Bloodlines are weird : you can't get them with your yearly level-ups unless you have enough XP saved up, and its hard to gain XP reliably seeing as combat alone won't do it unless it's somehow momentous or life-changing. Momentous social encounters, life experiences and personal growth will award XP.
I'll rule that bloodlines do work with this weird way of leveling up, but rely entirely on your XP total. If your XP total is too low at the time of the level-up, you don't get the bloodline level. This doesn't stop you from getting the next bloodline level. This weirdness is explained by the weirdness of your situation, and by the difficulty that returning magic has in awakening a long-dormant magical bloodline.
Of course you can only get one bloodline, and it probably isn't a major one unless someone in your IRL family slept with a supernatural being in the last few generations? If so, I suggest that you go and see a scientist right now and get your DNA examined! I'm sure they'll find it very intriguing, and you might even be able to claim those monetary rewards for proof of the supernatural! :P


Huh. I'd probably do something wacky like Divine mind 10/Marshal 7/Binder 3.
For feats, dragon touched, draconic auraX2, and double draconic aura.
That should give me something like 6 stackable auras, and a little binding on the side for fun.
I'm genuinely curious as to what you would do with such a build. Divine Mind, Binder and Marshal are all classes with many different possible focuses. Are you going to buff your social skills? Buff people's Int-based skills and monetise your services to R&D services? Somehow go for theft? Is this a combat-focused build somehow?
You're getting fast levelling for the first few classes (Divine Mind levels come 5 by 5, and Marshal is Tier 4). I presume you'll be starting with Divine Mind?


Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.
I'm actually fine with complexity, inane questions, and cheese. I'm just done with spellcasters. If you have cheese that doesn't involve them, go for it!


Agreed. That's what I'd go for. Maybe with a swordsage dip if that's allowed.
Dips are indeed allowed. When do you want to dip swordsage? At low levels for immediate power, or at high levels to be able to get the strongest maneuvers? If you dip it at level 20, you can get level 5 maneuvers for example.

[White Blade]

Talon: Yeah, I know on the agelessness front but I’ll have Patrick Stewart style aging where I’m in good health till I die and I’m happy with that. But since flaws are in play, I’ll take Tirelessness and Shaky so I never have to sleep and can hustle anywhere I want to go. Just eight hours straight of hustling. Since I have Vow of Poverty it doesn’t really matter if I could get a job or not - Just perpetually broke as all get out regardless. The technical wording is that I can’t own or use material possessions. Would that mean that I couldn’t, say, get married to someone who has a house and live in it? Would it preclude reading books inside the library (obviously owning a library card is right out)?

[Celestia]

I think I'll mimic the other guy in the thread and go for a shapeshifting build. Though, I'll gain the levels in a different order. I'll go Ranger 5/MoMF 2/Warshaper 5/MoMF +8. That way, I can get humanoid and large forms as quickly as possible.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Talon: Yeah, I know on the agelessness front but I’ll have Patrick Stewart style aging where I’m in good health till I die and I’m happy with that. But since flaws are in play, I’ll take Tirelessness and Shaky so I never have to sleep and can hustle anywhere I want to go. Just eight hours straight of hustling. Since I have Vow of Poverty it doesn’t really matter if I could get a job or not - Just perpetually broke as all get out regardless. The technical wording is that I can’t own or use material possessions. Would that mean that I couldn’t, say, get married to someone who has a house and live in it? Would it preclude reading books inside the library (obviously owning a library card is right out)?
I'm generous with Vow of Poverty: it's literal ownership. If you're squatting in someone else's house for months on end your vow isn't broken, because you're really just borrowing their possessions ans they could kick you out tomorrow.
However I suggest not making it too permanent, because if the stuff starts really feeling like yours you break your vow. Best to move around, or develop some humility and automatic sharing real fast.
Actually the easiest way to avoid breaking a vow of poverty is to go living in a commune and really get into the "shared possessions" thing. Well, either that or simply living the life of a traveling hobo. From year one you have endure elements and don't need food or water, and are safe from other humans no matter where you go. You could literally quit everything and go wander in the jungle in South America, and you'd probably be fine assuming you can make your saves against disease.

Oh, and to make the feat more livable, we're using the interpretation of Gift of Discernment that allows it to work for all Vow feats (because breaching them would affect your "standing with your Deity"). So if you have Gift of Discernment and do some regular introspection, you should avoid breaking your vow easily enough.

If a library card was free you could have one, and could even borrow books. They wouldn't be yours, after all - you'll have to return them soon.

[White Blade]

You could literally quit everything and go wander in the jungle in South America, and you'd probably be fine assuming you can make your saves against disease. .

Immune to non-magical diseases from the word go (not that I'd leave the U.S.A, since it's where I live). Yeah, all that seems fine. I'd be pretty happy as a sleepless, lovable hobo. Especially since I can just get a normal library card. If I ever got married, might be weird, but I'd also be happy in a commune. Done it before and I'd do it again. EDIT: Also, is it possible to get Saint Template?

[Sinner's Garden]

Well then. There's actually way more than 20 levels in there - there's no way you can fit all that in there. Still, those are a lot of interesting ideas!
Note that Warlock, Nosomatic Chirurgeon (in this context) and Hellfire Warlock are Tier 3, but I'm counting Anima Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Apostle of the Green Lady as Tier 2 classes (so you get 2 levels a year) because they're advancing 2 Tier 3 classes at once (except Initiate, but its class features are incredibly strong anyway). This would be a slow progression build with an awful lot of total power. Full warlock progression with Binding on the side? Very nice, very versatile, and very useful both in and out of combat.
I'll be ruling that Zceryll does work, but that you can't summon spellcasting monsters (Ursinals, etc). Monsters with SLAs and (Su) abilities are fine, of course.

Bloodlines are weird : you can't get them with your yearly level-ups unless you have enough XP saved up, and its hard to gain XP reliably seeing as combat alone won't do it unless it's somehow momentous or life-changing. Momentous social encounters, life experiences and personal growth will award XP.
I'll rule that bloodlines do work with this weird way of leveling up, but rely entirely on your XP total. If your XP total is too low at the time of the level-up, you don't get the bloodline level. This doesn't stop you from getting the next bloodline level. This weirdness is explained by the weirdness of your situation, and by the difficulty that returning magic has in awakening a long-dormant magical bloodline.
Of course you can only get one bloodline, and it probably isn't a major one unless someone in your IRL family slept with a supernatural being in the last few generations? If so, I suggest that you go and see a scientist right now and get your DNA examined! I'm sure they'll find it very intriguing, and you might even be able to claim those monetary rewards for proof of the supernatural! :P

Ah, I should have been clearer. Obviously, I wouldn't take all those classes all the way; trickster and champion are just dips for level cheese (I thought that was implied, but maybe you've seen people take them legitimately?) and Anima Mage will probably not be completed. Initiate was also to be truncated because the bloodline levels would progress access to more veil colors. I actually always forget that RAW you can take several bloodlines, despite being a frequent proponent of them, but being restricted from a major bloodline will unfortunately prevent me from maxing out my binding, which means even if I do manage that sweet werewolf HD, I can't benefit from any of the epic vestiges.

Actually, let's see it written out. Something along the lines of Warlock 1/Anima Mage 8/Apostle 1/Trickster 1/Hellfire 3/Champion 1/Initiate 5. 1+2 for Green Lady, 8+2 for Anima Mage, 2 for Trickster, 2 for Champion, and we've got 17 binding levels. I can also substitute two levels into different binding classes to get 21 binding levels without sacrificing access to dark invocations, presuming I can use Trickster and Champion's bloodline induced shadow levels to progress Anima Mage. Of course, I only actually need eighth level binds to get those epic feats in the event that I manage that whole werewolf deal, which is 16 + a feat, but if the build doesn't work correctly, I think warlock is more important.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

White Blade, I haven't restricted Saint at all. The conditions for unlocking it are in the BoED, and there's absolutely nothing stopping you from getting it IRL. Just go around selflessly doing good, and you'll probably get it eventually. However although it's been a while since I reread that chapter of BoED, I'm pretty sure that Saint requires painful sacrifice for the good of others to get, so it probably won't be a pleasant experience.


Ah, I should have been clearer. Obviously, I wouldn't take all those classes all the way; trickster and champion are just dips for level cheese (I thought that was implied, but maybe you've seen people take them legitimately?) and Anima Mage will probably not be completed. Initiate was also to be truncated because the bloodline levels would progress access to more veil colors. I actually always forget that RAW you can take several bloodlines, despite being a frequent proponent of them, but being restricted from a major bloodline will unfortunately prevent me from maxing out my binding, which means even if I do manage that sweet werewolf HD, I can't benefit from any of the epic vestiges.

Actually, let's see it written out. Something along the lines of Warlock 1/Anima Mage 8/Apostle 1/Trickster 1/Hellfire 3/Champion 1/Initiate 5. 1+2 for Green Lady, 8+2 for Anima Mage, 2 for Trickster, 2 for Champion, and we've got 17 binding levels. I can also substitute two levels into different binding classes to get 21 binding levels without sacrificing access to dark invocations, presuming I can use Trickster and Champion's bloodline induced shadow levels to progress Anima Mage. Of course, I only actually need eighth level binds to get those epic feats in the event that I manage that whole werewolf deal, which is 16 + a feat, but if the build doesn't work correctly, I think warlock is more important.
Ah, I understand. Interesting build. Not quite TO (it's based on Warlock and Binder after all) but definitely high-powered. It should work fine, unless you do nothing whatsoever with your life and fail to earn any XP for several years.
However, unless I'm wrong Bloodline levels only apply to classes you had before you took the bloodline level. Right?
So if you want both levels to apply to all those PrCs, you'd have to have already entered them all before level 6, which seems quite impossible.

Incidentally, which bloodline would you want?

[Sinner's Garden]

Immune to non-magical diseases from the word go (not that I'd leave the U.S.A, since it's where I live). Yeah, all that seems fine. I'd be pretty happy as a sleepless, lovable hobo. Especially since I can just get a normal library card. If I ever got married, might be weird, but I'd also be happy in a commune. Done it before and I'd do it again. EDIT: Also, is it possible to get Saint Template?

You just have to be Good and recognized by a church, more or less. You can found a church and use the SS rituals to obtain the [Good] subtype.


Ah, I understand. Interesting build. Not quite TO (it's based on Warlock and Binder after all) but definitely high-powered. It should work fine, unless you do nothing whatsoever with your life and fail to earn any XP for several years.
However, unless I'm wrong Bloodline levels only apply to classes you had before you took the bloodline level. Right?
So if you want both levels to apply to all those PrCs, you'd have to have already entered them all before level 6, which seems quite impossible.

Incidentally, which bloodline would you want?

That right? I guess you can tell I've been out of the game for a while that I'm mixing things up; I edited it, but I forgot that the epic binder feats required knowledge 2X and not binder levels. Okay, I guess I'd need to switch things around after all, and probably toss out Champion entirely as I do recall that requires clvl 10, meaning it trades one level of progression to gain one level of progression, though the BAB and saves may make it worth keeping over another level of Anima Mage. Probably have to drop a few levels off of it, though, and put one in Binder, then maybe shuffle two more over to Initiate to get it to 7/7, and I should still have eighth level vestiges with Improved Binding. Actually, was that 18 or 17? I could probably switch out a fourth level if I needed it somewhere else, but unless I was a halfling in a past life to score the healing Dragonmark and nab Nosomatic Chirurgeon, nothing in particular comes to mind. Wild Mage? Abjurant Champion, for the +1/+1? I could do Mindbender, but if I'm half-Binder, I've got Zcerryl in my back pocket. War Mage, maybe?

Oh, and for bloodline, the Fey one would be most appropriate, though the Celestial one would be pretty funny too, so one of those.

[StSword]

Well first of all, considering the spirit of the rules here, I'd suggest banning the Artificer's infusions, which are the exact freaking same but WotC thought they'd be clever and make them technically not spells, and the Sculpt Self feat from Dragon magazine which technically isn't an item creation feat but lets you turn yourself into a magic item.

I'll get back to you, I'm not sure if I want to go truenamer or warlock.

[Coventry]

Looks like Marshal for me. As a Tier 4 class, that means 4 levels, which means 2 minor auras and one major one.

Minor Aura: Motivate Dexterity. Motivate Intelligence. (boost dexterity or intelligence checks and skill rolls)
Major Aura: Steady Hand (bonus on ranged attack rolls)

Get hired as a basketball coach at a mid-major college. Make sure my team gets all the bonuses. Work hard for a few years to seal a reputation of turning good players into great ones, or great players into Michael Jordan/LeBron James.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Artificer. I wanna make golems. Between my homunculi and elder eidolons, I can make all the fun constructs I want. Just in case this threat has magic, I take the spellfire channeler feat. I will put a few skill points into lucid dreaming as well. I would like to tack on trollblooded and mark of xoriat for extra beefyness, but the mark requires aberrant dragonmark. If they work the yay, if not that is fine.

[Maat Mons]

You said spell-like abilities are okay? So I could go Factotum for up to 7th-level SLAs from the Sor/Wiz list?

I don't really understand the limit on magic items. They don't work if they "depend on" spellcasting? Does that mean all Artificer-crafted items work, because Artificers don't need spellcasting to craft?

If you nix Factotum and Artificer, I'm currently thinking maybe something with Invocations, Incarnum, or both. But I should probably actually learn how the Tome of Magic classes work, in case any of those would be good.

In any case, probably add on Night Haunt for the oh-so-handy Prestidigitation SLA.

[ekarney]

I think I'm going Binder honestly. If I can cop improved Binding then it's just 5 years to get Zceryll. I'm okay with this.

Shame spellcasting isn't allowed or you could bet your butter I'd be the off the chain with a Wu Jen Anima Mage build.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I wonder if we could find a way to get spellstitched. :smallconfused:

[Quertus]

Well, "a few more restrictions" means that I figure I probably already know what answers "dreaming me" gets for things like "homebrew feats, classes, etc". However, I'll explicitly ask if this is added to or replaces our existing skills, stats, etc. Most of my reply was written from the "add to" PoV.

Now, you'd think that "no casters" would mean I wouldn't bother posting. However, the three little words "things are coming" sounds like it has the "puts the few things I care about in this world at risk" motivation built in.

Like in the previous thread (that I cannot find) that poked this motivation, it brings out my inner optimizer, and makes me play for keeps. So, unlike in most such threads, I would be willing to sacrifice certain things for power.

Given this clause - "Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power." - I must assume that the interface is intuitive for those who haven't the foggiest idea what "D&D" is (let alone the optimization potential of the Playground). So I'd try a few things like "infinite attacks crit fisher builds" that I don't think actually work, to see if the interface happens to ping a match.

"Weird stuff" getting the nerf bat is a pain. We'll come back to that, and come back to whether Sculpt Self will be valuable in this context.

Assuming none of those builds got a match, there are two options that look good on paper. The first involves taking Vow of Poverty. With a GP coming in at hundreds of dollars, you can own and use a lot of stuff. Firearms (which have some nice damage in D&D, iirc), ammo, sticks of dynamite, D&D books, even a really bad car could be within budget. However, if you mess up, you're boned. Get handed an expensive gun, or use the wrong piece of scientific equipment, or need to drive an ambulance, or use a computer at work, or sleep in a nice bed? Boned. Unless you get magic value senses, you're boned; even if you do, you'll likely have some tough choices where you have to watch friends die to keep your Vow. That sounds like something I'd rather avoid.

Also, I struggle to imagine effective research (let alone rituals or modem life/combat/medicine) without $$$, and I would love to drive a bus (or a tank!) over some monsters, so, all in all, that's a no-go for me.

Instead, I'd simply poke the interface for "optimal skill build, pre Illithid Savant". Expert, Marshal, Rogue, True Namer, Binder, Factotum, I don't really care. Although I'd want to leave room for, at minimum, Trollblooded. Then I'd call out Pazazu's name thrice, and thrice again, to remove this "conscience" that might hold me back from what needs to be done. Assuming he showed, I would negotiate for a single ritual to make me an Undead Aberration (with no horrific side effects) and whatever information he'd give me about this scenario, offering to "sing his praises to the masses" in exchange for his… best efforts / not ****ing me over here. I think with billions of souls on the line, he might even consider throwing in some "me speak more good" bonuses to his new salesman for free, but maybe that's me being too optimistic :smallwink:

Having as close to having sold my soul as likely possible, I would (hopefully) have an "all but immune to damage" chassis, impressive skill checks, and, should I deem this "vague threat" to actually constitute a threat to what I care about, I would have my already considerable skill with (some) weapons augmented by several D&D class levels to world-class levels from the get-go, and a build designed to literally eat my enemies, and turn their strengths against them. And, should I deem that this vague threat does not constitute a danger to what I love, I'm still a knowledgeable immortal who never has to actually eat brains, and I only developed a sadistic love of pain and suffering in the process of getting there.

If negotiations go poorly, I might just be a Necropolitan (and down a level), with a ritual to become an Elan later, and no intel. The Elan would wait until after I got a cohort, whose job would be to steer the "no longer me" me to still protect what I once loved. I would encourage this tactic of taking Leadership for others (to double our numbers!), and disseminate the ritual to anyone who wanted it (after securing my own components first, if they were not provided, as my build definitely needs the race change… and after making sure people understand that it's "B5 'death of personality'" that we're talking about here).

If he never shows, I'm just a knowledgeable regenerating tank with some innate combat skills, and I've got a lot of research ahead of me. But, hopefully, instead of an Elan, I'll learn how to become a "me-lan" :smallwink: Since I'm apparently building this from scratch.

Speaking of research… do Knowledge skills represent, you know, Knowledge, or not? :smallconfused: In the game, they do; in this challenge, they don't seem to be treated that way. The idea of "if you make a really high knowledge DC, you are qualified to do years of research" seems like, well, nonsense to my ears. Then again, I got handed, "here's how DNA is translated", and immediately started writing code with it, so I may have a different perspective than most on the relationships between research, knowledge, and action.

If you couldn't tell from above, IMO, one of our primary objectives should be to find and babysit the thousands of terrible builds until next year(+), when we get them to take leadership, and choose good levels for those thousands of new recruits. Similarly, another primary objective should be to screen candidates for cohorts, choosing people with good "off-sheet" skills - soldiers, doctors, geniuses, etc - or who are in good positions to assist us. Heck, just choosing "every world leader" might make "combat in the streets" or "enacting policies to save the world" easier.

Oh, right, Sculpt Self. In this context, I might aim to use Sculpt Self strictly for the long-game, and aim to use it to obtain Resurrection powers. Because Resurrection seems the best failsafe to protect what I love, and Sculpt Self seems about the only way to achieve that in this scenario.

Also. While "vague warnings" might make the end result seem more "fair", it makes the being that is giving us the warning look like an idiot. Or like they're playing a game with us. Or some other equally non-flattering scenario.


Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.

"Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power."

Too late, you've already responded :smalltongue:

EDIT: "You can't just buy things off amazon and expect to do Alchemy or whatever."

Actually, if bad stuff comes, magic returns, etc, the world would be pants on head stupid (and I would step in and replace Amazon in a heartbeat in this scenario) if you *couldn't* buy alchemy supplies off Amazon. So long as they actually existed, that is. Just saying.

I expect, with the world leaders as our cohorts, The equivalent of the FDA, but with global reach, would police the quality of alchemical supplies with extreme prejudice. :smallcool:

Also, since Artificer apparently isn't "greyed out", I'd probably aim for my cohort to be an Artificer. Who, curiously, would skyrocket past "PCs" who chose to level in Artificer.

[Maat Mons]

Some more questions.

Is this strictly 3.5, or is Pathfinder allowed too?

How does Sinner's Garden's build meet the prerequisites for Anima Mage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Whatever it's doing, does the same thing work to get into Soulcaster?

Is it still possible to take levels in casting classes, even though the spells won't work? If we take levels in spellcasting classes, can we then take things that have spellcasting as a prerequisite, even though our spells don't work? If we take Archmage or Hierophant, can we sacrifice our non-working spells for High Arcana / Special Abilities?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, if (Su) abilities are explicitly allowed, I'd go for psion with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat...

Something like martial monk 2 / psion w / ardent x / psywar y / psionic spellthief z / etcwith the psionic adaptation of the Master Spellthief feat pushing for as many stacking manifester levels as possible. (Take 6 levels in commoner for a full year, then retrain into the above.)

Yeah, it's smacking against the spirit of the rules really hard, but according to the rules here it should work.

[Menzath]

Yaknow what, scratch the aura build. Most of the major countries are driven by consumerism, so I might as well be a crafter.

So something like artificer1/incarnate1/stone blessed(dwarven)3/ironsoul forge master 10/legacy champion 5.

Not sure what tier all those prcs is gonna be, but forge master with legacy champion and one level of artificer makes my effect caster level for crafting 43. And artificer lets me skip actually knowing spells with a skill roll.

Probably take able learner, thankfully legacy champion has UMD as a class skill, so I can finish out at Max ranks on that. And the only other feat I need is for legacy champion. Guess I'd just fill up on crafting feats for everything else.

[El Dorado]

El Dorado
Core Paladin 3/Core Monk 17
Lawful Good Human

Yearly Progression and Stat Boosts

2020
Paladin 3/Monk 2 +1 Con (1-5)

2021
Monk 5 +1 Wis (6 - 10)

2022
Monk 5 +1 Cha (11- 15)

2023
Monk 5 +1 Con, +1 Con (16-20)

Level 20 breakdown

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 14 (age-adjusted, middle-aged)
Total Hit Points: 127
Speed: 80 feet
Armor Class 18 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 Monk), flat-footed 18, touch 18)
Init: +2
Fort +16 (13 +1 Con +2 Cha)
Ref +15 (11 +2 Dex +2 Cha)
Will +16 (11 +3 Wis +2 Cha)

Attack +16/+11/+6 15 base +2 Dex
Weapon Finesse: +17/+12/+7
Flurry of Blows +16/+16/+16/+11/+6) [includes Str modifier]
Attack (missile) +17/+12/+7
Grapple check: +16/+11/+6

Languages: English

Unarmed Damage: 2d8+1

Feats: Alertness, Blind-fight, Improved Trip (monk), Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), Stunning Fist (monk), Negotiator, Skill Focus (Tumble), Weapon Finesse

Skills:
Balance +4 [+2 tumble]
Diplomacy +21 [15 ranks +2 negotiator +2 sense motive]
Jump +23 [+2 tumble +20 speed 80]
Listen +20 [15 ranks +2 alertness]
Sense Motive +20 [15 ranks +2 negotiator]
Spot +20 [15 ranks +2 alertness]
Tumble +25 [20 ranks +3 skill focus]



Monk SQ:


AC Bonus for Wisdom

AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)

Flurry of Blows

Unarmed Strike

Fast Movement (already included)

Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)

Evasion (level 2)

Fast Movement (level 3)

Still Mind level 3)

Ki Strike (level 4)

Slow Fall (level 4)

Purity of Body (level 5)

Wholeness of Body (level 7)

Improved Evasion (level 9)

Diamond Body (level 11)

Quivering Palm (level 15)

Timeless Body (level 17)

Paladin SQ


Aura of Good

Detect Evil

Smite Evil (1x/day; add +2 to melee attack roll, paladin levels to damage)

Divine Grace (level 2)

Lay on Hands (level 2)

Aura of Courage (level 3)

Divine Health (level 3)

Code of Conduct / Association



Design Goals


Thank you White Blade for the inspiration. I was thinking about Troaccid's thread, trying to figure out how to make a 3.5 paladin work under those guidelines, when I saw this thread, and, more specifically, your post.

I'm middle-aged so I want disease immunity ASAP with a capstone of Timeless Body to prevent further penalties.

I also want to play in hard-mode, which means combining a paladin's code of conduct with a monk's alignment restriction with no chance of Atonement if I fall.

[StSword]

Well while Artificer is technically within the rules but I feel that's an oversight than anything else, I'll go with Warlock/Monk/Enlightened Fist with the Eldritch Claws/Beast Strike cheesy combo with fries.

[El Dorado]

El Dorado
Core Paladin 3/Core Monk 17
Lawful Good Human

Yearly Progression and Stat Boosts

2020
Paladin 3/Monk 2 +1 Con (1-5)

2021
Monk 5 +1 Wis (6 - 10)

2022
Monk 5 +1 Cha (11- 15)

2023
Monk 5 +1 Con, +1 Con (16-20)

Level 20 breakdown

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 14 (age-adjusted, middle-aged)
Total Hit Points: 127
Speed: 80 feet
Armor Class 18 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 Monk), flat-footed 18, touch 18)
Init: +2
Fort +16 (13 +1 Con +2 Cha)
Ref +15 (11 +2 Dex +2 Cha)
Will +16 (11 +3 Wis +2 Cha)

Attack +16/+11/+6 15 base +2 Dex
Weapon Finesse: +17/+12/+7
Flurry of Blows +16/+16/+16/+11/+6) [includes Str modifier]
Attack (missile) +17/+12/+7
Grapple check: +16/+11/+6

Languages: English

Unarmed Damage: 2d8+1

Feats: Alertness, Blind-fight, Improved Trip (monk), Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), Stunning Fist (monk), Negotiator, Skill Focus (Tumble), Weapon Finesse

Skills:
Balance +4 [+2 tumble]
Diplomacy +21 [15 ranks +2 negotiator +2 sense motive]
Jump +23 [+2 tumble +20 speed 80]
Listen +20 [15 ranks +2 alertness]
Sense Motive +20 [15 ranks +2 negotiator]
Spot +20 [15 ranks +2 alertness]
Tumble +25 [20 ranks +3 skill focus]



Monk SQ:


AC Bonus for Wisdom

AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)

Flurry of Blows

Unarmed Strike

Fast Movement (already included)

Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)

Evasion (level 2)

Fast Movement (level 3)

Still Mind level 3)

Ki Strike (level 4)

Slow Fall (level 4)

Purity of Body (level 5)

Wholeness of Body (level 7)

Improved Evasion (level 9)

Diamond Body (level 11)

Quivering Palm (level 15)

Timeless Body (level 17)

Paladin SQ


Aura of Good

Detect Evil

Smite Evil (1x/day; add +2 to melee attack roll, paladin levels to damage)

Divine Grace (level 2)

Lay on Hands (level 2)

Aura of Courage (level 3)

Divine Health (level 3)

Code of Conduct / Association



Design Goals


Thank you White Blade for the inspiration. I was thinking about Troaccid's thread, trying to figure out how to make a 3.5 paladin work under those guidelines, when I saw this thread, and, more specifically, your post.

I'm middle-aged so I want disease immunity ASAP with a capstone of Timeless Body to prevent further penalties.

I also want to play in hard-mode, which means combining a paladin's code of conduct with a monk's alignment restriction with no chance of Atonement if I fall.



oh and Tongue of the Sun and Moon (level 17) . that's the real capstone. :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Well first of all, considering the spirit of the rules here, I'd suggest banning the Artificer's infusions, which are the exact freaking same but WotC thought they'd be clever and make them technically not spells, and the Sculpt Self feat from Dragon magazine which technically isn't an item creation feat but lets you turn yourself into a magic item.

Thank you for the warning. I'm allowing Sculpt Self with so many restrictions (XP is slow, needs research and skill points investment) that it's effectively just a long-term thing for the far future and which nevertheless has a good chance of killing you if you do it wrong. But it can theoretically bring great power if you take it slow and have a way to test it!

I really should have banned Artificer, but now that several people have picked it... Well, now I'll simply make Spell Storing Item nonfunctional. And note that Artificer is Tier 1, so they'll level really slowly. They'll also find it very, very difficult to get reagents to craft the good stuff (unless they get hired by a government or something, but then they certainly won't be spending all that wealth on personal stuff...) because we're running with the interpretation "1gp = a ****ton of money"


Looks like Marshal for me. As a Tier 4 class, that means 4 levels, which means 2 minor auras and one major one.

Minor Aura: Motivate Dexterity. Motivate Intelligence. (boost dexterity or intelligence checks and skill rolls)
Major Aura: Steady Hand (bonus on ranged attack rolls)

Get hired as a basketball coach at a mid-major college. Make sure my team gets all the bonuses. Work hard for a few years to seal a reputation of turning good players into great ones, or great players into Michael Jordan/LeBron James.
Interesting. Openly admitting to your powers, or not?


Hmm... Artificer. I wanna make golems. Between my homunculi and elder eidolons, I can make all the fun constructs I want. Just in case this threat has magic, I take the spellfire channeler feat. I will put a few skill points into lucid dreaming as well. I would like to tack on trollblooded and mark of xoriat for extra beefyness, but the mark requires aberrant dragonmark. If they work the yay, if not that is fine.
You mean Spellfire Wielder, right? Or do you actually want to enter the Spellfire Channeler PrC?
Those other feats are fine, honestly.
Artificer sort of works. Making golems will have to wait for several years due to the slow leveling, of course, but it can be done.


You said spell-like abilities are okay? So I could go Factotum for up to 7th-level SLAs from the Sor/Wiz list?

I don't really understand the limit on magic items. They don't work if they "depend on" spellcasting? Does that mean all Artificer-crafted items work, because Artificers don't need spellcasting to craft?

If you nix Factotum and Artificer, I'm currently thinking maybe something with Invocations, Incarnum, or both. But I should probably actually learn how the Tome of Magic classes work, in case any of those would be good.

In any case, probably add on Night Haunt for the oh-so-handy Prestidigitation SLA.
Factotum is absolutely fine, go for it!
Artificer has been allowed due to how slow I was in banning it. Spell Storing has been restricted, and of course things like wands or scrolls don't work. But if you want to be an Artificer and make golems or wondrous items that don't cast spells (so no "item letting me cast this spell"), that's fine. It levels so slowly though...


I think I'm going Binder honestly. If I can cop improved Binding then it's just 5 years to get Zceryll. I'm okay with this.

Binder is fine, and so is Improved Binding. Note that Binder levels come 3 per year, so you can get Zceryll in 2023 (AFAIK you'll need to be level 10, right?). Binder of Zceryll is a really fun build, and it's also rather useful in real life! Amazingly versatile!
It's anything but discreet though.


Well, "a few more restrictions" means that I figure I probably already know what answers "dreaming me" gets for things like "homebrew feats, classes, etc". However, I'll explicitly ask if this is added to or replaces our existing skills, stats, etc. Most of my reply was written from the "add to" PoV.
Your stats are replaced, but everything else is added to.


Given this clause - "Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power." - I must assume that the interface is intuitive for those who haven't the foggiest idea what "D&D" is (let alone the optimization potential of the Playground). So I'd try a few things like "infinite attacks crit fisher builds" that I don't think actually work, to see if the interface happens to ping a match.
Good thinking. However you find that infinite loops are too TO for this world, and feel that picking them would be a bad idea. Still, this method lets you check what could work before you take it (sort of). It won't let you know about the cosmology or anything, but it will warn you which class abilities may not work.


"Weird stuff" getting the nerf bat is a pain. We'll come back to that, and come back to whether Sculpt Self will be valuable in this context.
See above.


Assuming none of those builds got a match, there are two options that look good on paper. The first involves taking Vow of Poverty. With a GP coming in at hundreds of dollars, you can own and use a lot of stuff. Firearms (which have some nice damage in D&D, iirc), ammo, sticks of dynamite, D&D books, even a really bad car could be within budget. However, if you mess up, you're boned. Get handed an expensive gun, or use the wrong piece of scientific equipment, or need to drive an ambulance, or use a computer at work, or sleep in a nice bed? Boned. Unless you get magic value senses, you're boned; even if you do, you'll likely have some tough choices where you have to watch friends die to keep your Vow. That sounds like something I'd rather avoid.
This is correct. However, please note I ruled Gift of Discernment works for Vows, so that helps.


Instead, I'd simply poke the interface for "optimal skill build, pre Illithid Savant". Expert, Marshal, Rogue, True Namer, Binder, Factotum, I don't really care. Although I'd want to leave room for, at minimum, Trollblooded. Then I'd call out Pazazu's name thrice, and thrice again, to remove this "conscience" that might hold me back from what needs to be done. Assuming he showed, I would negotiate for a single ritual to make me an Undead Aberration (with no horrific side effects) and whatever information he'd give me about this scenario, offering to "sing his praises to the masses" in exchange for his… best efforts / not ****ing me over here. I think with billions of souls on the line, he might even consider throwing in some "me speak more good" bonuses to his new salesman for free, but maybe that's me being too optimistic :smallwink:

Having as close to having sold my soul as likely possible, I would (hopefully) have an "all but immune to damage" chassis, impressive skill checks, and, should I deem this "vague threat" to actually constitute a threat to what I care about, I would have my already considerable skill with (some) weapons augmented by several D&D class levels to world-class levels from the get-go, and a build designed to literally eat my enemies, and turn their strengths against them. And, should I deem that this vague threat does not constitute a danger to what I love, I'm still a knowledgeable immortal who never has to actually eat brains, and I only developed a sadistic love of pain and suffering in the process of getting there.

If negotiations go poorly, I might just be a Necropolitan (and down a level), with a ritual to become an Elan later, and no intel. The Elan would wait until after I got a cohort, whose job would be to steer the "no longer me" me to still protect what I once loved. I would encourage this tactic of taking Leadership for others (to double our numbers!), and disseminate the ritual to anyone who wanted it (after securing my own components first, if they were not provided, as my build definitely needs the race change… and after making sure people understand that it's "B5 'death of personality'" that we're talking about here).
You're taking a risk here, and assuming that Pazuzu exists. I'll tell you if it works once you settle on a build.


If he never shows, I'm just a knowledgeable regenerating tank with some innate combat skills, and I've got a lot of research ahead of me. But, hopefully, instead of an Elan, I'll learn how to become a "me-lan" :smallwink: Since I'm apparently building this from scratch. If you're building this from scratch (with appropriate research, skill points and human testing), sure. If you're receiving the ritual form some Outsider, you'll probably just get an Elan ritual.


Speaking of research… do Knowledge skills represent, you know, Knowledge, or not? :smallconfused: In the game, they do; in this challenge, they don't seem to be treated that way. The idea of "if you make a really high knowledge DC, you are qualified to do years of research" seems like, well, nonsense to my ears. Then again, I got handed, "here's how DNA is translated", and immediately started writing code with it, so I may have a different perspective than most on the relationships between research, knowledge, and action.
Yes, Knowledge is knowledge. It's not enough to make you a good researcher (you'll need practice, methodology, etc) but without said Knowledge you won't get anywhere. You'll be starting from so far behind that there's no point in even trying. The stuff you instantly learn from taking a Knowledge skill rank is years and years of study.


If you couldn't tell from above, IMO, one of our primary objectives should be to find and babysit the thousands of terrible builds until next year(+), when we get them to take leadership, and choose good levels for those thousands of new recruits. Similarly, another primary objective should be to screen candidates for cohorts, choosing people with good "off-sheet" skills - soldiers, doctors, geniuses, etc - or who are in good positions to assist us. Heck, just choosing "every world leader" might make "combat in the streets" or "enacting policies to save the world" easier.
A very interesting objective, I like it.


EDIT: "You can't just buy things off amazon and expect to do Alchemy or whatever."

Actually, if bad stuff comes, magic returns, etc, the world would be pants on head stupid (and I would step in and replace Amazon in a heartbeat in this scenario) if you *couldn't* buy alchemy supplies off Amazon. So long as they actually existed, that is. Just saying.
The world is full of controlled substances that can't be easily bought off Amazon. Many Alchemical supplies are also too evil, or simply too finicky, to be easily bought, transported, and sold.


I expect, with the world leaders as our cohorts, The equivalent of the FDA, but with global reach, would police the quality of alchemical supplies with extreme prejudice. :smallcool:

Also, since Artificer apparently isn't "greyed out", I'd probably aim for my cohort to be an Artificer. Who, curiously, would skyrocket past "PCs" who chose to level in Artificer.
Good thought. I wonder if you're the only person to have it?


Some more questions.

Is this strictly 3.5, or is Pathfinder allowed too?

How does Sinner's Garden's build meet the prerequisites for Anima Mage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Whatever it's doing, does the same thing work to get into Soulcaster?

Is it still possible to take levels in casting classes, even though the spells won't work? If we take levels in spellcasting classes, can we then take things that have spellcasting as a prerequisite, even though our spells don't work? If we take Archmage or Hierophant, can we sacrifice our non-working spells for High Arcana / Special Abilities?
Strictly 3.5. Sinner's Garden is using the Warlock PrC qualification rules. AFAIK it also works with Dragonfire Adept.
You can still take levels in spellcasting classes, and can still use those slots to fuel Arcane Strike or Archimage or whatever.


Well, if (Su) abilities are explicitly allowed, I'd go for psion with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat...

Something like martial monk 2 / psion w / ardent x / psywar y / psionic spellthief z / etcwith the psionic adaptation of the Master Spellthief feat pushing for as many stacking manifester levels as possible. (Take 6 levels in commoner for a full year, then retrain into the above.)

Yeah, it's smacking against the spirit of the rules really hard, but according to the rules here it should work.
Psionics don't work. You've turned your psionics into a (Su) ability, but they're still psionics. Nonfunctional build.


Yaknow what, scratch the aura build. Most of the major countries are driven by consumerism, so I might as well be a crafter.

So something like artificer1/incarnate1/stone blessed(dwarven)3/ironsoul forge master 10/legacy champion 5.

Not sure what tier all those prcs is gonna be, but forge master with legacy champion and one level of artificer makes my effect caster level for crafting 43. And artificer lets me skip actually knowing spells with a skill roll.

Probably take able learner, thankfully legacy champion has UMD as a class skill, so I can finish out at Max ranks on that. And the only other feat I need is for legacy champion. Guess I'd just fill up on crafting feats for everything else.
Artificer is Tier 1, but everything else is Tier 4 (unless legacy Champion progresses Artificer, then it's Tier 1). I genuinely don't understand what kind of magic items you expect to craft though. What's your caster level? What is this build even doing?
Still, it gets a bunch of Incarnate levels eventually, so that's nice.


Well while Artificer is technically within the rules but I feel that's an oversight than anything else, I'll go with Warlock/Monk/Enlightened Fist with the Eldritch Claws/Beast Strike cheesy combo with fries.
A solid build. Some utility if you pick the warlock invocations, but really just a build that can punch through anti-tank plating. It works fine.

[ben-zayb]

I'll bootleg the previous MoMF builds, but the progression is straight up Ranger 5 / MoMF 10

The magic happens on year 5 (a year after Truenamer 20s kill us all, but whatever)

MoMF 8 enables me to Split off into multiple copies of myself.
MoMF 10 enables 15HD forms such as Phasms. Phasms can then Alternate Form into any large creature such as a Protean (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm). Protean's Alter Shape combined with Assume Supernatural Ability pretty much gives you any Supernatural or Extraordinary ability from nondeific beings. Eat your heart out, Illithid Savant!

This should give me arbitrarily high number of clones of myself that can turn into whatever the heck it wants to be.

EDIT: With the Leadership cheese, I'm now inclined to just go Truenamer 20, then have a cohort that has Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 with the above build.

[Vizzerdrix]

You mean Spellfire Wielder, right? Or do you actually want to enter the Spellfire Channeler PrC?
Those other feats are fine, honestly.
Artificer sort of works. Making golems will have to wait for several years due to the slow leveling, of course, but it can be done.

Yeah Spellfire Wielder. I'm afb and took a guess on the name. If PF or Ravenloft are available, I think I can start production sooner. Poppets and... was it clockworks? Again, afb so yeah. Can do naught but go off memory atm.
If nothing else I can start cranking out paper and wood golems around level 3. I mean I live in Maine. An abandoned paper mill full of wood and paper golems would be quite fitting. Ooooh! I could turn one into a practice dungeon for everyone! The reward for getting through it would be a roll of the coveted 4 ply! :smallyuk:

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'll bootleg the previous MoMF builds, but the progression is straight up Ranger 5 / MoMF 10

The magic happens on year 5 (a year after Truenamer 20s kill us all, but whatever)

MoMF 8 enables me to Split off into multiple copies of myself.
MoMF 10 enables 15HD forms such as Phasms. Phasms can then Alternate Form into any large creature such as a Protean (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm). Protean's Alter Shape combined with Assume Supernatural Ability pretty much gives you any Supernatural or Extraordinary ability from nondeific beings. Eat your heart out, Illithid Savant!

This should give me arbitrarily high number of clones of myself that can turn into whatever the heck it wants to be.

EDIT: With the Leadership cheese, I'm now inclined to just go Truenamer 20, then have a cohort that has Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 with the above build.
This is an interesting build, thanks for sharing.
Leadership "cheese"... Honestly, I wonder how relevant that really is. Sure you get more power a little faster, but you aren't really the one getting it, are you? And a cohort isn't a slave or an extension of you.

[Quertus]

Thank you for the warning. I'm allowing Sculpt Self with so many restrictions (XP is slow, needs research and skill points investment) that it's effectively just a long-term thing for the far future and which nevertheless has a good chance of killing you if you do it wrong. But it can theoretically bring great power if you take it slow and have a way to test it!

Testing… Sculpt Self. Short of self duplication, that sounds rather difficult.


I really should have banned Artificer, but now that several people have picked it... Well, now I'll simply make Spell Storing Item nonfunctional. And note that Artificer is Tier 1, so they'll level really slowly. They'll also find it very, very difficult to get reagents to craft the good stuff (unless they get hired by a government or something, but then they certainly won't be spending all that wealth on personal stuff...) because we're running with the interpretation "1gp = a ****ton of money"

Or have all of the world's governments in their pocket, thanks to the collective collaboration of the Playground?

Really, that might be enough to handle most threats by itself.


Your stats are replaced, but everything else is added to.

So I'm suddenly going to get a lot dumber. Well, that's a pain. I may need to rethink my choices, for something that I can play / be effectively even when dumbed down.

I might poke at the dream, to ask if i can have a Thought Bottle, to get my brains back once the crisis has been resolved.

Make that "to have the option to get my brains back" - I may find I enjoy being dumbed down. :smallwink:


Good thinking. However you find that infinite loops are too TO for this world, and feel that picking them would be a bad idea. Still, this method lets you check what could work before you take it (sort of). It won't let you know about the cosmology or anything, but it will warn you which class abilities may not work.

So, this… world? No, I can't really believe that it's a property of the world. This… interface, this method of gaining power… has rules against Spellcasting, and TO (with at least "infinity" defined as TO).


This is correct. However, please note I ruled Gift of Discernment works for Vows, so that helps.

That helps, yes. But not enough to prevent "oops, I rolled a solid gold d20", or any of the myriad other problems that I figure would eventually catch me. :smalltongue:


You're taking a risk here, and assuming that Pazuzu exists. I'll tell you if it works once you settle on a build.

"Once I settle on my build"… that means that the interface isn't as intuitive / user friendly as I'd hoped, and thousands of random people are, well, terrible. So, whatever this threat is, the defenders have been empowered… poorly. Sigh. Things this suboptimal really bug me.

One problem with my intended build is that I didn't include a way to become an Illithid. :smallredface: Originally, I had several intended methods to get there, including making it be part of my bargaining, but the post got long, and I forgot.

Looks like most of these methods are… sketchy at best. I'll have to evaluate carefully.


If you're building this from scratch (with appropriate research, skill points and human testing), sure. If you're receiving the ritual form some Outsider, you'll probably just get an Elan ritual.

Becoming an Elan is, in B5 parlance, "Death of Personality". Honestly, hopefully, I'm the only one dumb enough to be willing to go this route. But "death of personality" definitely counts as an unacceptable side effect for negotiation purposes.

Human testing? Oh, we're not talking Sculpt Self.


Yes, Knowledge is knowledge. It's not enough to make you a good researcher (you'll need practice, methodology, etc) but without said Knowledge you won't get anywhere. You'll be starting from so far behind that there's no point in even trying. The stuff you instantly learn from taking a Knowledge skill rank is years and years of study.

We seem to be having a communications breakdown here. If Knowledge is knowledge, then what's the Knowledge DC to know a successful ritual?

If Knowledge is just "research skill", that's another story.


A very interesting objective, I like it.

:smallbiggrin: Seems the optimal response, given the tools at hand.


The world is full of controlled substances that can't be easily bought off Amazon. Many Alchemical supplies are also too evil, or simply too finicky, to be easily bought, transported, and sold.

Ah. Makes more sense now. Still, various corporations (let alone governments) seem plenty capable of shipping such things, so this shouldn't be a problem for the combined might of the Playground.


Good thought. I wonder if you're the only person to have it?

I certainly hope not - I plan to share this plan with as many… the Chosen need a name… Awakened Defenders, perhaps?… as possible. I only get 1 instance of Leadership, after all - but, between us, we can have the world. :smallwink:


Psionics don't work. You've turned your psionics into a (Su) ability, but they're still psionics. Nonfunctional build.

… come again?


I'll bootleg the previous MoMF builds, but the progression is straight up Ranger 5 / MoMF 10

The magic happens on year 5 (a year after Truenamer 20s kill us all, but whatever)

MoMF 8 enables me to Split off into multiple copies of myself.
MoMF 10 enables 15HD forms such as Phasms. Phasms can then Alternate Form into any large creature such as a Protean (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm). Protean's Alter Shape combined with Assume Supernatural Ability pretty much gives you any Supernatural or Extraordinary ability from nondeific beings. Eat your heart out, Illithid Savant!

This should give me arbitrarily high number of clones of myself that can turn into whatever the heck it wants to be.

EDIT: With the Leadership cheese, I'm now inclined to just go Truenamer 20, then have a cohort that has Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 with the above build.

I might do better as your cohort than with my own build :smalltongue:


And a cohort isn't a slave or an extension of you.

I'm liking the "cohort slave" angle for the truly evil defender of the world. I may need to steal that.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am not sure if I should feel proud that there are others taking inspiration from my build idea or if I should be mad at myself that others are able to implement it better than I can. Probably both.

I usually play Pathfinder, where Wild Shape is based on your own stats, but if I recall correctly, in 3.5 your physicals are replaced with the physical ability scores of the creature you take the form of, yes? I would appreciate confirmation on this, as I haven't settled on my ability scores yet.

Also, does owning the book with the fleshraker in it constitute enough familiarity with the animal to allow me to Wildshape into it? This is also relevant for other forms I plan on using later, as I will probably need them. Like War Troll.

Given that we all received the same dream and all ended up in this thread, are we operating under the assumption that we are aware of each other and thus can coordinate and plan for the eventual arrival of "bad stuff"? Or do I need to assume there is no one else around that I'm aware of.

Lastly, I'd like to propose that all of us going Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper (in whatever progression) refer to ourselves as the Animorphs from now on. :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

I am not sure if I should feel proud that there are others taking inspiration from my build idea or if I should be mad at myself that others are able to implement it better than I can. Probably both.

I usually play Pathfinder, where Wild Shape is based on your own stats, but if I recall correctly, in 3.5 your physicals are replaced with the physical ability scores of the creature you take the form of, yes? I would appreciate confirmation on this, as I haven't settled on my ability scores yet.

Also, does owning the book with the fleshraker in it constitute enough familiarity with the animal to allow me to Wildshape into it? This is also relevant for other forms I plan on using later, as I will probably need them. Like War Troll.

Given that we all received the same dream and all ended up in this thread, are we operating under the assumption that we are aware of each other and thus can coordinate and plan for the eventual arrival of "bad stuff"? Or do I need to assume there is no one else around that I'm aware of.

Lastly, I'd like to propose that all of us going Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper (in whatever progression) refer to ourselves as the Animorphs from now on. :smalltongue:

1- correct. Physical are replaced.
2- a study of similar animal anatomy and a bit of lucid dreaming may get you there. Can't hurt to try at least.
3- I'm sure if not, then other players would start mind scanning people and stumble on others eventually.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

So, this… world? No, I can't really believe that it's a property of the world. This… interface, this method of gaining power… has rules against Spellcasting, and TO (with at least "infinity" defined as TO).
Yes.


"Once I settle on my build"… that means that the interface isn't as intuitive / user friendly as I'd hoped, and thousands of random people are, well, terrible. So, whatever this threat is, the defenders have been empowered… poorly. Sigh. Things this suboptimal really bug me.
Just to be clear : the interface will let you take that build, but it doesn't tell you if Pazuzu exists, or if he can access this world. So it's entirely possible that you'll pick this build and that it'll make you amazingly powerful (this very thread shows a Binder/Warlock build that abuses bloodlines in ways that I've never seen accepted at a table, and I've played with some bull**** optimized Tier 1 groups in the past). But it's also possible that you'll pick that build, and that your Wish will fail. What's your backup plan then? Do you have other ways to get a Wish? Or will you be stuck with a good skill-based build that fails to qualify for Illithid Savant?


We seem to be having a communications breakdown here. If Knowledge is knowledge, then what's the Knowledge DC to know a successful ritual?
If Knowledge is just "research skill", that's another story.
Knowledge is "knowing things". However, the DCs for knowing acquired Template rituals are stupidly high (AFAIK they usually aren't given in the rulebooks, so you presumably can't "just know them already"), so unless you have a clever way to pump Knowledge sky-high in your build you're very unlikely to just know them. However if you have merely good Knowledge skills, you'll know enough to have a real chance at researching such rituals.
Obviously, rituals are gated behind having some sort of access to relevant magic. A ritual to turn into a Necropolitan will probably require you to have undead or access to negative energy somehow, etc. You can always look to find such things over the years as you level up, but it's always easier to somehow have them as class abilities. For example a high-Knowledge character is researching a ritual to turn his cohort into a Necropolitan. Either he can have some sort of negative energy class ability (Command Undead, Utterdark Blast, Shadow Sun Ninja levels, etc), or he can look for a person or place with some sort of negative energy stuff, or he can try to manufacture it somehow (by killing a lot of people in one dark underground room, for example). It's a magic ritual, these things always require thematic components, and good components make things less difficult.



… come again?
Hey, this is just me ruling. But as far as I can tell, that feat changes the way the ability works but doesn't change its name. And this is an ability that has been forbidden by name.
To be honest, I'm sticking to my "no spellcasting or psionics" ruling. It's just as arbitrary as the "no infinite loops", and you've already remarked on that.


I'm liking the "cohort slave" angle for the truly evil defender of the world. I may need to steal that.
Just to be clear: you'll have to actually enslave that cohort yourself. AFAIK just being a cohort doesn't make them your slave, and if you pick a Good cohort but then act too Evil they could leave you for moral reasons (and perhaps become an interesting antagonist or something, depends on your GM and the way they run their game).

Your other remarks were generally interesting and accurate. Commenting on them would generally spoil the "things" I promised I'd post in a few days.


I usually play Pathfinder, where Wild Shape is based on your own stats, but if I recall correctly, in 3.5 your physicals are replaced with the physical ability scores of the creature you take the form of, yes? I would appreciate confirmation on this, as I haven't settled on my ability scores yet.

Also, does owning the book with the fleshraker in it constitute enough familiarity with the animal to allow me to Wildshape into it? This is also relevant for other forms I plan on using later, as I will probably need them. Like War Troll.

Given that we all received the same dream and all ended up in this thread, are we operating under the assumption that we are aware of each other and thus can coordinate and plan for the eventual arrival of "bad stuff"? Or do I need to assume there is no one else around that I'm aware of.
You all exist, but you aren't all instantly magically aware of each other. Do you know their IRL names and phone numbers? How would you manage to communicate? Through this website's PMs?
I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it may be a little annoying. It could be valuable though - imagine a team of level 18 "Animorphs" in 2025 all acting together. They could basically do whatever they wanted, governments and other people with levels be damned!

Wild Shape gives you the physical stats of an average member of the race you turn into. To get familiarity with Wild Shape forms, take relevant Knowledge skills or find someone who did and who can describe them to you. Just having seen them in a book won't do.

[Elricaltovilla]

Wild Shape gives you the physical stats of an average member of the race you turn into. To get familiarity with Wild Shape forms, take relevant Knowledge skills or find someone who did and who can describe them to you. Just having seen them in a book won't do.

Well, it's not just "A Book", it's a book that serves as a mechanical foundation for this thought experiment and breaks down the exact mechanical nature of the creature in question. Given that I'll be attempting to transform into creatures that are extinct/never existed in the first place I felt it was relevant to ask.

I guess pumping my knowledge DCs sky high will be important then so that I can ensure I have access to the forms I'll need. I guess 5 levels of 6+INT skill ranks will be useful early on in preparation for this.

EDIT: Another point of clarification, the +4 STR and CON from Warshaper applies while wildshaped or no? The reference I was using didn't specify.

[Menzath]

Artificer is Tier 1, but everything else is Tier 4 (unless legacy Champion progresses Artificer, then it's Tier 1). I genuinely don't understand what kind of magic items you expect to craft though. What's your caster level? What is this build even doing?
Still, it gets a bunch of Incarnate levels eventually, so that's nice.


My caster level is 1, my effective caster level for crafting magic items is 43. So just about any magic items that are functional in this world.

As for the cost of crafting, according to this site(uses 5e priced item metrics but is still accurate for our needs)
https://medium.com/@chrisalexander_55813/what-is-a-dungeons-and-dragons-gold-piece-worth-in-modern-dollars-fcd7670b285b
The closest approximation of gold to Dollar is the grain conversion which puts a gold piece equalling about 35.66$ dollars.

Getting materials needed is the slightly harder part then, since anything to magical might simply not exist. But the flip side is that any mundane and alchemical items needed would likely cost far less in GP, since the world uses a different economical standard.

Crafting golems and a few other items then would be one of the better early investments. How many nation's would KILL to have a mindless labor force that worked 24/7 with far less human error(still have people ordering them so some room for error).
This alone could easily bankroll my crafting needs for anything in the millions of dollars range, which is a considerable amount.

And you could probably make a killing with just +1 enhancements alone. How many family heirlooms, museum pieces, or national treasures would people be willing to get enchanted.

Not to mention making your own cheap golem army for other crafting.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Well, it's not just "A Book", it's a book that serves as a mechanical foundation for this thought experiment and breaks down the exact mechanical nature of the creature in question. Given that I'll be attempting to transform into creatures that are extinct/never existed in the first place I felt it was relevant to ask.

I guess pumping my knowledge DCs sky high will be important then so that I can ensure I have access to the forms I'll need. I guess 5 levels of 6+INT skill ranks will be useful early on in preparation for this.

EDIT: Another point of clarification, the +4 STR and CON from Warshaper applies while wildshaped or no? The reference I was using didn't specify.
Yes, Warshaper bonuses apply.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics don't work. You've turned your psionics into a (Su) ability, but they're still psionics. Nonfunctional build.Supernatural abilities do, however. And if [Sp] abilities work, so do [Ps], as there are numerous psionic abilities marked [Sp] and the differences between [Sp] and [Ps] are marginal. The original post itself said that [Sp] and [Su] abilities work, and my build's abilities are all [Su] due to turning my [Ps] into [Su]. By the original post's own rules, it's fine.

[Unavenger]

As with all pseudo-optimisation contests which run on a meme-based tier list, I'll take truenamer - with no spellcasting it's pretty much the next best thing (after all, it's the closest thing around to reliable healing, I get flight on time, I can fix anything I accidentally break with a spout of gobbledigook, +5 everything bonus, etcetera) and because of the mis-tiering I also level faster than the hit-things-with-swords-magic crew? Sign me up!

(Even without the boost, or possibly even with slower leveling, it's actually more helpful in standard life, but Things Are Coming implies possible combat which the blade mages are a little better at than me - unless I'm getting 5/3 or even 4/3 times their levels, naturally.)

Without breaking the spirit of the rules too much, it's the strongest thing I can think of to do at this point (and it seems like a lot of other people have shown the truenamer a decent amount of love, too).

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... It could be beneficial for some of us to take a few levels of beast heart adept. We could breed monsters with a few levels.

[Skysaber]

I like the Wildshape Ranger to Master of Many Forms build of the first poster, and was going to go +1 on that, but on reading further to where the OP allowed the Saint template, I thought I'd gather go with the one level equivalent Divine Minion template and go directly into MoMF instead.

Grab Assume Supernatural Ability feats out of Savage Species at pretty much every opportunity.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I like the Wildshape Ranger to Master of Many Forms build of the first poster, and was going to go +1 on that, but on reading further to where the OP allowed the Saint template, I thought I'd gather go with the one level equivalent Divine Minion template and go directly into MoMF instead.

Grab Assume Supernatural Ability feats out of Savage Species at pretty much every opportunity.
I allowed earning the Saint Template, not taking it instead of a level. If you want Divine Minion, you'll have to find a way to get it (and also find a friendly God).

EDIT : by the way, I don't know why everyone is taking Wild Shape Ranger. Clearly the best class with Wild Shape is Wild Monk. It's the same Tier, but you can also take Invisible Fist and that substitution level that grants Darkvision, and you get Wis to AC while in all other forms. This seems better than Ranger for the purposes of that build.

[Sinner's Garden]

(this very thread shows a Binder/Warlock build that abuses bloodlines in ways that I've never seen accepted at a table, and I've played with some bull**** optimized Tier 1 groups in the past).

I would apologize, but we both know I feel no guilt for this. Besides, as strong as my build is, it's not like I can't be outshone by the Truenamers that are dropping Gate in four years' time. Far as I'm aware, that is the real power choice.


The closest approximation of gold to Dollar is the grain conversion which puts a gold piece equalling about 35.66$ dollars.

1gp is approximately equal to 20USD in 3e. It was mentioned by the design team in one of the Dragon Magazine issues c. 2000 as one of their reference points; I don't recall the issue, and I'm not up to hunting it down today, but if you want, I can look for it later.

[Quertus]

So, I find this thread's concept of "Knowledge" to possess internal consistency, and to be as reasonable as one could expect (because bolting the abstraction back onto reality just isn't going to be seamless). And I actively like the use of Knowledge for qualifying for knowing forms (although I would contend that several other methods should qualify, too). So kudos! I may be a ****, and poke things hard, but I'd like to acknowledge when people do things well (I can't say "right", because there's not a single "right" answer here).

I, however, may have misinterpreted something, so, to double-check: when our stats get "replaced", I took that to mean our 6 attributes, but does that include skills, training, knowledge, etc, too? Would I forget how to swim, life proficiency with driving & firearms, be unable to program, forget how to optimize a D&D character, etc, unless I take the skills (some of which, like programming, don't exactly exist in 3e)? Do I lose my various combat/weapons training? My languages known?

This will, among other things, have a huge impact on my ability to support myself (without shenanigans). And just who I believe would make good cohorts / followers (because I'd hate to nerf Einstein with the elite array, for example) And what I would choose to be. Because, if I know I'm getting a figurative lobotomy, I might choose a build more conducive to that state.

Also, I've played a lot of what the Playground would call "TO" builds, and they were fine. The only time that the GM killed a game because I was too OP was the time that they handed me free shapeshifter powers. So, although I'm AFB, and I'll need to look things up, my tentative "not so skillful" skill build for pre-Illithid Savant will probably be the popular shapeshifter Ranger ("animorphs") build. :smalltongue: I'll just need to finagle skill points a bit or something.


Given that we all received the same dream and all ended up in this thread, are we operating under the assumption that we are aware of each other and thus can coordinate and plan for the eventual arrival of "bad stuff"? Or do I need to assume there is no one else around that I'm aware of.

I intend to quote the dream, including on the Playground.


Just to be clear : the interface will let you take that build, but it doesn't tell you if Pazuzu exists, or if he can access this world. So it's entirely possible that you'll pick this build and that it'll make you amazingly powerful (this very thread shows a Binder/Warlock build that abuses bloodlines in ways that I've never seen accepted at a table, and I've played with some bull**** optimized Tier 1 groups in the past). But it's also possible that you'll pick that build, and that your Wish will fail. What's your backup plan then? Do you have other ways to get a Wish? Or will you be stuck with a good skill-based build that fails to qualify for Illithid Savant?

I had lots of contingencies, I just didn't explain them all. I figured there was no point wasting so many words if I was barking up the wrong tree. (Well, and I forgot to say some things that I had intended to say). Though note that, yes, I had listed a series of if/then conditions around even the part that I talked about.


Knowledge is "knowing things". However, the DCs for knowing acquired Template rituals are stupidly high (AFAIK they usually aren't given in the rulebooks, so you presumably can't "just know them already"), so unless you have a clever way to pump Knowledge sky-high in your build you're very unlikely to just know them. However if you have merely good Knowledge skills, you'll know enough to have a real chance at researching such rituals.

So, if you cannot make the Knowledge check to know something, you can research to know it. Logically, then, since you know it, your Knowledge should go up to reflect your new knowledge.

… I was going to call this a "dysfunction", but that's just me getting caught up in "D&D thinking" - this actually sounds perfectly reasonable, ATC.


Obviously, rituals are gated behind having some sort of access to relevant magic. A ritual to turn into a Necropolitan will probably require you to have undead or access to negative energy somehow, etc. You can always look to find such things over the years as you level up, but it's always easier to somehow have them as class abilities. For example a high-Knowledge character is researching a ritual to turn his cohort into a Necropolitan. Either he can have some sort of negative energy class ability (Command Undead, Utterdark Blast, Shadow Sun Ninja levels, etc), or he can look for a person or place with some sort of negative energy stuff, or he can try to manufacture it somehow (by killing a lot of people in one dark underground room, for example). It's a magic ritual, these things always require thematic components, and good components make things less difficult.

Again with this obsession on class abilities. :smalltongue:

Really, "identifying proper components" sounds like something Knowledge would be ideal for. (And I'd more likely use something like "cobwebs collected from the shadows of a comma patient's room", "near-death experience clippings / body fluids” - things that represent that balance between life and death, rather than the things so focused on death that you would apparently use)


Just to be clear: you'll have to actually enslave that cohort yourself. AFAIK just being a cohort doesn't make them your slave, and if you pick a Good cohort but then act too Evil they could leave you for moral reasons (and perhaps become an interesting antagonist or something, depends on your GM and the way they run their game).

Human trafficking is a thing, including in my area. I don't think I have to go that far. But, currently, it sounds like the only reason for me to go Evil is simply to be prepared to do whatever is necessary (and, given intelligent opposition, as a deterrent - "you may kill those I love, but, some day, I will resurrect them. However, if you do, you will still be begging for death long after they have been returned to me. Consider your next actions in that light very carefully"). Without ejecting my core morals, however, those are words I can roleplay, not acts I can knowingly perform. I hope I am never in a position where I am confronted by a sentient being who desires to harm what I love, for I fear what I might become.

Also, I'm not seeing any distinction between your definitions of "cohort" and "ally". I plan on having lots of allies, if possible, but a cohort ought to be, you know, better.


Your other remarks were generally interesting and accurate. Commenting on them would generally spoil the "things" I promised I'd post in a few days.

Don't spoil things, plz. :smallwink:

[Quertus]

Hmm... It could be beneficial for some of us to take a few levels of beast heart adept. We could breed monsters with a few levels.

Um, I was kinda planning to do so late game anyway, tbh… is there now an "air breathing mermaid" extra prerequisite? :smallfrown:


EDIT : by the way, I don't know why everyone is taking Wild Shape Ranger. Clearly the best class with Wild Shape is Wild Monk. It's the same Tier, but you can also take Invisible Fist and that substitution level that grants Darkvision, and you get Wis to AC while in all other forms. This seems better than Ranger for the purposes of that build.

… because I'd never heard of it? Clearly, I'll need to research that, too.


1gp is approximately equal to 20USD in 3e. It was mentioned by the design team in one of the Dragon Magazine issues c. 2000 as one of their reference points; I don't recall the issue, and I'm not up to hunting it down today, but if you want, I can look for it later.

Ugh, that's… making it difficult for Vow of Poverty not to coincide with Vow of Nudity. :smalleek: And prohibits all forms of interacting with GitP that I can come up with. :smallfrown:

[RatElemental]

I'm guessing this is 3.5 only? Otherwise alchemist is still technically a valid choice, I think.

[Elricaltovilla]

I allowed earning the Saint Template, not taking it instead of a level. If you want Divine Minion, you'll have to find a way to get it (and also find a friendly God).

EDIT : by the way, I don't know why everyone is taking Wild Shape Ranger. Clearly the best class with Wild Shape is Wild Monk. It's the same Tier, but you can also take Invisible Fist and that substitution level that grants Darkvision, and you get Wis to AC while in all other forms. This seems better than Ranger for the purposes of that build.

Five levels of full BAB and more skill points, since I need all knowledges maxed in order to get the forms I need according to your rulings would be why I'd still pick ranger probably. But you make a compelling argument.

[TotallyNotEvil]

And interesting way out for VoP, given the ruling, is having a rich spouse and just constantly live in (preferably nice) hotels.

Oh yeah, question: can we change race?

[vasilidor]

If I could be an Incanter (pathfinder 3rd party, spheres of power) that is what I would like to be. it is a tier 2 or 3, depending which magic spheres you take, class. I can live with it being 2. in which case I would go Incanter 20. And spend all my feats on extra magic talents, all of them.

[Menzath]

1gp is approximately equal to 20USD in 3e. It was mentioned by the design team in one of the Dragon Magazine issues c. 2000 as one of their reference points; I don't recall the issue, and I'm not up to hunting it down today, but if you want, I can look for it later.

No I'll take your word for it. I tended not to read to much dragon/dungeon mag cause it was banned in like... Everything ever.
This just adds the question on wether we use a third party do a gp=gold value, or the original writers.
And as for xp costs, I guess I need to rush crafting a thought bottle. And do things that benefit large groups/states/nation's.
I bet that giving major assistance to a 1st world country would grant a nice bit of xp.

I can see it now, golem powered, power stations.

[Maat Mons]

I just double-checked Complete Arcane, and it says that invocations cannot fulfill "able to cast X-level spell" requirements. So I'm just not seeing how Soulcaster, Anima Mage, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are possible with Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.



Healer 15 / Hierophant 5, can get Mass Heal as a spell-like ability 10 times per day.

Spontaneous Cleric 10 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Hierophant 5 can get Miracle as a spell-like ability 6 times per day, and can have an Astral Deva with a mostly-finished savage progression as a Planar Cohort.

[TotallyNotEvil]

The fact that you automatically end up at 20th helps a ton with what I was thinking: Factotum 19/Exemplar 1.

Not locked down on it, but damn, Cunning Brilliance is a game changer: Sneak Attack to more or less instantly be competent at melee, Divine Health or the Shadowcaster's thing that doesn't cover magical diseases but does cover Poison, constant Water Breathing from Dragon Shaman, a tank-chewing pet with Animal Companion, SR 29 from Monk...

That's just from a quick skim of eligible stuff.

@edit: Pretty sure you can't get the Planar Cohort, given you are unable to cast the Planar Bind to call it. Six Miracles per day is crazy, tho, and still has 2 2/day SLAs of 8th or lower level to pick.

Only really does stuff by 16th level, otoh.

@edit2: Unless you use your Miracles to bring it, duh.

[Skysaber]

I allowed earning the Saint Template, not taking it instead of a level. If you want Divine Minion, you'll have to find a way to get it (and also find a friendly God).

EDIT : by the way, I don't know why everyone is taking Wild Shape Ranger. Clearly the best class with Wild Shape is Wild Monk. It's the same Tier, but you can also take Invisible Fist and that substitution level that grants Darkvision, and you get Wis to AC while in all other forms. This seems better than Ranger for the purposes of that build.

I have zero problem qualifying for the Saint template, as the qualifications listed in the BoED are less stringent than the ones I am already living. All I'd need to add are three exalted feats, and be 6th level.

I also have no problem at all wearing six flaws to get extra feats, just taking credit for laws and strictures I am already living.

So, Saint template is qualified for in that first year.

With that in mind, I'd actually be better off taking 6 levels of Aristocrat as my first year, with Obtain Familiar and Leadership as feats (and exalted familiar as one of the three exalted feats I'd need) - take as my cohort a Factotum, so between myself, my exalted familiar, and my factotum cohort we have three minds with maxed out Knowledge skills (all three of us will max out Knowledge Arcana), with the factotum's Cunning Knowledge boost, to do the work on coming up with the research to handle some of the rituals in Savage Species.

I will work first with plants. Then, at an animal shelter, using pets that are unwanted and therefore scheduled to be terminated in order to get live examples to test out the race changing rituals of SS. I will do this so I can progress our little group's knowledge far enough so that we can then work up to working at VA hospitals or hospices, with next-of-kin's permission, transforming at first coma patients about to have their plugs pulled, then crippled vets, into trolls so they can regenerate all of the parts they need to live full, healthy lives, then back again.

At each stage I will be producing useful byproducts. As I transform plants I will be making several examples of those things that my group's Knowledge Arcana tell me are useful for alchemy and other item creation uses.

With the pets, I will start with simple changes, recreating extinct species like passenger pigeons and dodos, then going on to create more species suitable for alchemy and magical item creation - and anything I transform we will have saved the life of, as not enough people want stray cats, but nobody would turn down their own unicorn.

Lastly, with the vets, transform anyone who wants to into paladins of appropriate alignment. I suspect freedom-loving American vets to create a lot of Paladins of Freedom.

Now I can properly use rituals to trade away my Saint template to get Divine Minion (and, yes, I already have a friendly God - He died for me, you know), and ironically, I qualify for Saint all over again. I could trade that away several times to get some interesting template cheese going on. Half-Fey and some others have some interesting SLAs.

Not to mention, Warlocks are created via contracts to Fey, and that's the type the Half-Fey template gives you. So I could ritually create fey-based warlocks at this point, in addition to the Paladins of Freedom.

I can, at that time, ritual away all six levels of aristocrat to get Master of Many Forms levels and regain my Animorph card.

Next year, I'll be plotting to get another six levels of Aristocrat.

[ben-zayb]

If the Animorphs team are onboard with abusing Leadership to bypass the "Tier X = X levels" limitations, might as well go for Aristocrat 6 too, and I see no reason why my cohort can't be something like Marshal 1 / Binder 1 / Incarnate 1 / Warlock 1

Even without much optimization, the Diplomacy check is easily 30 (take 10 from Naberius + 7 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 4 invested Silvertongue Mask + 6 Beguiling Influence). This makes it easier for the Animorphs team to get to the right people, places, and resources to help us with the research.

Furthermore, a 60ft radius Motivate Intelligence should allow our friends to use Aid Another for the required Knowledge checks, since even mundane people that are untrained would still be able to make untrained Knowledge checks at DC10. I'd say a strategically placed Marshal with a range of 60ft radius could include a couple of hundred people in its effect, for a decent bonus. Masterwork tools for an additional +2 would be helpful in beating that DC10 check. Even if 50% fail the check, getting 100+ in our aided Knowledge checks isn't so bad.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Regarding gp : note that a gp is "a lot of money" for the purposes of this thread. Using goods to calculate the $ value of 1gp seems like a poor idea because of how crazy the prices of goods and services are in 3.5, so we'll be working off the "50 gp for a pound of gold", which brings us to "0.02 pounds of gold = 1 gp". Seeing as today's gold price is over 1500$ for 1 Troy ounce ounce of gold, and as there are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound, 1 gp is worth over 400$.
This weakens item crafting, and therefore works as intended.
However, this does make it difficult to qualify for Item Familiar. Poor Truenamers.

By the way, everyone, am I crazy or is the best healing class the Dragon Shaman? Very fast leveling means quick access to its normally mid-level healing, and it can easily remove a whole bunch of conditions and heal an awful lot of HP damage.
The only other contenders I can think of are Binders (either using Naberius + Stigmata or Tenebrous + Sacred Healing) but they can only really heal hit points, with a condition removal at high levels using SLAs from Zceryll. Still, they can Raise Dead.
Truenamer can replicate that a small number of times per day. Their only limitation is the number of times they can successfully activate Gate to summon creatures with healing SLAs. Sadly it seems very difficult to pump Truenaming checks, and the DC increases every time they do this. They do have a few other Healing abilities, but they're not great either. AFAIK their highest(level one is still worse than Panacea. Truenamers are very strong (because even a small number of Gates per day that don't cost XP is amazing, even though most of their other abilities are disappointing) but their effectiveness as Healers really depends on somehow finding a way to pump Truenaming checks without much gear, without the Paragnostic Assembly, and probably without an Item Familiar too.
Healers slowly get SLAs for everything which work even without being able to cast spells, and have a useful mount. However they can't do much else...

Incarnates have decent healing, actually. Not sure if they can remove conditions though.


So, I find this thread's concept of "Knowledge" to possess internal consistency, and to be as reasonable as one could expect (because bolting the abstraction back onto reality just isn't going to be seamless). And I actively like the use of Knowledge for qualifying for knowing forms (although I would contend that several other methods should qualify, too). So kudos! I may be a ****, and poke things hard, but I'd like to acknowledge when people do things well (I can't say "right", because there's not a single "right" answer here).
Nice of you to say so, thanks!

I, however, may have misinterpreted something, so, to double-check: when our stats get "replaced", I took that to mean our 6 attributes, but does that include skills, training, knowledge, etc, too?
Stats are Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. Those are replaced. However you keep your existing skills, and you can still learn things the normal way if you put in the time and effort despite having new skills "downloaded" into your brain as you level up.
Basically your D&D stuff is an extra boost, but the "real you" still exists underneath and can keep doing whatever it did before. The only things that really replace parts of the "real you" are HP and stats.

Really, "identifying proper components" sounds like something Knowledge would be ideal for. (And I'd more likely use something like "cobwebs collected from the shadows of a comma patient's room", "near-death experience clippings / body fluids” - things that represent that balance between life and death, rather than the things so focused on death that you would apparently use)Exactly.

Also, I'm not seeing any distinction between your definitions of "cohort" and "ally". I plan on having lots of allies, if possible, but a cohort ought to be, you know, better.
It's been years since I read the 3.5 DMG, but AFAIK a cohort isn't a slave. It's a close, loyal and dependable person who respects your leadership. Leadership gives you an instant powerful ally willing to follow your orders, but not a brainwashed slave. A cohort can leave if you make it violate its morals and whatnot (however a cohort will probably die for you if it fits their character, and will certainly fight for you just like any loyal minion would).

I'm guessing this is 3.5 only? Otherwise alchemist is still technically a valid choice, I think.Yes, 3.5 Only. This is also a response to Vasilidor - no Spheres of Power, sorry.


Oh yeah, question: can we change race?
You can change race if you can find a way to do so.

I just double-checked Complete Arcane, and it says that invocations cannot fulfill "able to cast X-level spell" requirements. So I'm just not seeing how Soulcaster, Anima Mage, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are possible with Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.
Huh, you're right. I was clearly completely misremembering how Warlock multiclassing works, thanks.
Actually, this sounds like something Sinner's Garden should explain, not me. This seems like a build you can't take, sorry.


Healer 15 / Hierophant 5, can get Mass Heal as a spell-like ability 10 times per day.
Spontaneous Cleric 10 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Hierophant 5 can get Miracle as a spell-like ability 6 times per day, and can have an Astral Deva with a mostly-finished savage progression as a Planar Cohort.How does this work? I was thinking about something similar using Archmage for the same reason, but I can't see how you can qualify. You can't cast spells, after all.
Or is there some way to count as casting spells without actually having to cast them? Because the premise here is that spellcasting doesn't work.
Actually, this is also a valid reason for Sinner's build to not work.

The fact that you automatically end up at 20th helps a ton with what I was thinking: Factotum 19/Exemplar 1.

What are you using Exemplar for, here? Diplomacy?
And you're correct about the Planar Cohort. Description says you have to call it, but you can't actually cast spells...


With that in mind, I'd actually be better off taking 6 levels of Aristocrat as my first year, with Obtain Familiar and Leadership as feats Damn, I was hoping that nobody would think of that. I was going to disappoint Quertus in the reveal of "things happen", because one of those things is that major world leaders instantly become people's cohorts. There are thousands of people leveling, after all, and it seems likely that a small number of them would think to rush Leadership and grab a country.


I can, at that time, ritual away all six levels of aristocrat to get Master of Many Forms levels and regain my Animorph card.
Are you planning on using a ritual to level drain yourself, and then another to use Restoration to take different levels the second time? That's the only way to rebuild levels that I can think of (in the other thread, troaccid gave good reasons for normal rebuilding rules being unavailable IRL).

Note that researching rituals takes a long time, so it isn't actually a valid way to speed-level yourself (this is a basic balance factor to avoid making the entire thread irrelevant). It likely won't be much slower to just level normally without taking the risks of ritual use. However if you want to rush Leadership and eventually have a good class, it is a valid strategy.

[Quertus]

Even without much optimization, the Diplomacy check is easily 30 (take 10 from Naberius + 7 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 4 invested Silvertongue Mask + 6 Beguiling Influence). This makes it easier for the Animorphs team to get to the right people, places, and resources to help us with the research.

Furthermore, a 60ft radius Motivate Intelligence should allow our friends to use Aid Another for the required Knowledge checks, since even mundane people that are untrained would still be able to make untrained Knowledge checks at DC10. I'd say a strategically placed Marshal with a range of 60ft radius could include a couple of hundred people in its effect, for a decent bonus. Masterwork tools for an additional +2 would be helpful in beating that DC10 check. Even if 50% fail the check, getting 100+ in our aided Knowledge checks isn't so bad.

This (plus the high number of people who can "aid another" on scientific endeavors IRL) is one of the reasons why I wasn't worried about the "crazy high DCs". And, once they collectively know the DC 100 knowledge (you know, 6 seconds later), they think about something else, and know something that takes DC 200. Repeat until they know whatever arbitrary DC.


Stats are Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. Those are replaced. However you keep your existing skills, and you can still learn things the normal way if you put in the time and effort despite having new skills "downloaded" into your brain as you level up.
Basically your D&D stuff is an extra boost, but the "real you" still exists underneath and can keep doing whatever it did before. The only things that really replace parts of the "real you" are HP and stats.

That will still result in reduced programming skill (etc) from lost Intelligence. So, it's subtractive in that regard. (Actually, one could argue that I'm fairly "optimized" to do nearly everything through brute force intellect, and that I would be hit, hard, by this)


It's been years since I read the 3.5 DMG, but AFAIK a cohort isn't a slave. It's a close, loyal and dependable person who respects your leadership. Leadership gives you an instant powerful ally willing to follow your orders, but not a brainwashed slave. A cohort can leave if you make it violate its morals and whatnot (however a cohort will probably die for you if it fits their character, and will certainly fight for you just like any loyal minion would).

Just as a good slave might respect a good master. Dang. Just as a well-trained slave might respect and be dependable to (and even self-sacrificing for) a powerful master who treats them well.

In some cases, empowering the slave strengthens that bond; in others, it could lead to a desire for freedom (regardless of whether they remain a cohort).

Although this does bring up an interesting optimization opportunity - perhaps we could grow our numbers through recruiting and "freeing" cohorts.


Damn, I was hoping that nobody would think of that. I was going to disappoint Quertus in the reveal of "things happen", because one of those things is that major world leaders instantly become people's cohorts. There are thousands of people leveling, after all, and it seems likely that a small number of them would think to rush Leadership and grab a country.

Go ahead, ask your non-gamer friends, who have never heard of D&D (or as close to that as exists in your area), what they would do in this scenario. Then tell me how many would "take 6 levels in 'bad' classes to take leadership to take over a country asap" without… (was it Plato, Socrates, Aristotle… whoever would ask leading questions to get their desired answer)… without that level of leading questions (and without the intuitive interface that I already established does not exist, so they cannot just ask, "can I get a country somehow?"). Go ahead. I'll wait. I'd say safe money is on zero to 1 of the "randoms" coming up with this plan on their own… and we can always try to ally with them later anyway. I'm feeling fairly safe that my plan of coordinated Leadership is achievable.

This is ignoring Evil, and just… "replacing"… any world leaders we cannot Cohort in year 2, and, if we cannot position their successor, simply taking their replacement with the "year 3" batch. (Note: this "Evil" plan would be based on the notion, "is he one of yours? No? Then he must have been taken by the enemy (whatever that vague threat is, maybe it can get cohorts).". Granted, this is assuming that we can - and others are willing to -work as a coordinated whole against this unknown threat.)

(EDIT: mind you, I have exactly zero cares for "world domination" - for me, everything is simply a means to an end; namely, "protect what I care about from whatever vague 'bad stuff' is coming")

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Questus, your "we can pump Knowledge sky-high" plan replies on two things :
- finding people with Knowledge and aura builds to coordinate with. They're rather absent from this thread so far. This isn't impossible, but it'll take some effort.
- "leapfrogging" actually working. If you can make a Knowledge check, that doesn't mean that future DCs get easier because "you already know the first bit". If a group could pump their Knowledge and auto-pass all DC 100 or less checks they'd know an awful lot of stuff, but to know more they'd have to conduct research and experimentation like everybody else. And some things always require research and experimentation : a good example of this is spell research, which by RAW is always uncertain no matter how many Knowledge or Spellcraft ranks you have until you actually sit down and research it.

Go ahead, ask your non-gamer friends, who have never heard of D&D (or as close to that as exists in your area), what they would do in this scenario.
It's been established that it's possible to ask "is this possible" before picking a build. There's absolutely nothing stopping a cautious person asking questions all night long, and only making a final choice at dawn. Therefore although bad builds will be plentiful, so too will rather good ones, or at least ones with a strong gimmick.


This is ignoring Evil, and just… "replacing"… any world leaders we cannot Cohort in year 2, and, if we cannot position their successor, simply taking their replacement with the "year 3" batch.
This works fine.
However you can't just "fire" a cohort to give levels to someone else. If your cohort abandons you (mind control, utterly irreconcilable differences, etc), your just don't have a cohort until it dies and you can take Leadership again.

The best way to really spread levels all around would be to take a cohort, have your cohort take a cohort, and then kill and replace your first cohort. This wouldn't get rid of the second cohort! Make sure you have Diplomacy to get all these people working with you, of course, and be aware of the fact that replacing a cohort takes a fair amount of time by RAW.
Geez, this is a really grim way of gathering powerful people.

[Sinner's Garden]

Actually, this sounds like something Sinner's Garden should explain, not me. This seems like a build you can't take, sorry.
How does this work? I was thinking about something similar using Archmage for the same reason, but I can't see how you can qualify. You can't cast spells, after all.
Or is there some way to count as casting spells without actually having to cast them? Because the premise here is that spellcasting doesn't work.
Actually, this is also a valid reason for Sinner's build to not work.

Pretty sure Initiate still works because Invocations can make requirements on specific spells, although he is right that I accidentally applied a houserule on Anima Mage. It's possible to smooth it over by taking Magical Training and Sanctum Spell for a little bit, but if spellcasting doesn't work at all, then it is impossible to enter here. Which is a real pain, but would mean I might have to drop out my binding dual-focus.

[Elricaltovilla]

Question: You mentioned on the first page taking Wedded to History for immortality, but I have seen contention on the boards that this doesn't actually make you immortal, just gives you one of the backgrounds commonly found on the immortal beings mentioned in the article from which the feat comes. Are you ruling that Wedded to History does, in fact, grant some form of immortality?

[Quertus]

Questus, your "we can pump Knowledge sky-high" plan replies on two things :
- finding people with Knowledge and aura builds to coordinate with. They're rather absent from this thread so far. This isn't impossible, but it'll take some effort.
- "leapfrogging" actually working. If you can make a Knowledge check, that doesn't mean that future DCs get easier because "you already know the first bit". If a group could pump their Knowledge and auto-pass all DC 100 or less checks they'd know an awful lot of stuff, but to know more they'd have to conduct research and experimentation like everybody else.

My "crazy knowledge scheme, part 7" only requires leapfrogging to work, not aura builds or anyone with knowledge skills to begin with. "Hey, Bob, what do you know about transformational hyperdrive modulation? Nothing? OK, answer me these DC 10 questions about it (to act a sounding board, to Aid Another my roll). So, here's what I think…”. A small crowd of idiots occasionally making DC 10 checks will grant me knowledge that I did not have. Which, honestly, matches my experience IRL.

Leapfrogging works off the dysfunction inherent in the concept of Knowledge skills. If Knowledge skills represent knowledge, then, by making the rolls, and gaining the knowledge, shouldn't the Knowledge skills go up, to represent that newly-gained knowledge?

Or, to put it more simply, "if I cannot know the Ritual of Elan without being able to make a DC 200 Dungeoning check, by virtue of knowing the Ritual of Elan, does it not stand to reason that I have the Knowledge necessary to make a DC 200 Dungeoning check?".

BTW, I come into play with the knowledge to become a Lich, as that ritual was published, should anyone be simultaneously dumb enough to take nonfunctional caster levels, smart enough to nonetheless qualify for the race, Evil enough to enact the ritual, and palatable to my sensibilities. What does that make my inherent Knowledge: Arcana & Religion?


And some things always require research and experimentation : a good example of this is spell research, which by RAW is always uncertain no matter how many Knowledge or Spellcraft ranks you have until you actually sit down and research it.

Well, sadly, it probably would after my lobotomy. Until then, I'm a genius who can often "just see" these things that other people have to "study".


It's been established that it's possible to ask "is this possible" before picking a build. There's absolutely nothing stopping a cautious person asking questions all night long, and only making a final choice at dawn. Therefore although bad builds will be plentiful, so too will rather good ones, or at least ones with a strong gimmick.

I mean, all night, with the books in front of me? We'll pretend that I might get a build similar to whatever I finally go with.

Random people who are new to the system, with the books in front of them? … OK, sure, they could read "Leadership", see what it does, and hatch this plan.

People who do not know D&D, who are handed the opening post, and allowed to ask questions of a non-prompting AI?


However you can't just "fire" a cohort to give levels to someone else. If your cohort abandons you (mind control, utterly irreconcilable differences, etc), your just don't have a cohort until it dies and you can take Leadership again.

The best way to really spread levels all around would be to take a cohort, have your cohort take a cohort, and then kill and replace your first cohort. This wouldn't get rid of the second cohort! Make sure you have Diplomacy to get all these people working with you, of course, and be aware of the fact that replacing a cohort takes a fair amount of time by RAW.

I think that Thrullherders would be optimal for this, as they do not suffer a penalty for their cohort dieing. And it doesn't take time - 24h later, a new cohort (who suicidally agrees with your mindset) appears. (Which, if anyone can come up with a trick to make that build possible given the current restrictions, my cohort's cohort will likely be prompted to go that route).

And, well, my goal doesn't necessitate them being my friends - they just need to sign on to defeating "the threat".


Geez, this is a really grim way of gathering powerful people.

Thus the "remove my conscience, that might prevent me from doing what was necessary to protect that which I love". Starting to see why that was my first thought for a first step?

[Elricaltovilla]

I am now thinking I should shift my build to WS Ranger 5 > MoMF 2 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 8. I will probably need to be able to Wildshape more than once a day much more than I need the benefits of Warshaper. I'm not sure if that's actually better or if I should just finish off MoMF first, given that it gives a lot more benefits.

[White Blade]

And interesting way out for VoP, given the ruling, is having a rich spouse and just constantly live in (preferably nice) hotels.

Oh yeah, question: can we change race?

This isn’t really “getting around” VoP, because it’s how the vow functions in an actual game. Like your party members are perpetually rich friends who take you from place to place, cover your inn stays, and stuff like that.

[Elricaltovilla]

Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.

[TotallyNotEvil]

This isn’t really “getting around” VoP, because it’s how the vow functions in an actual game. Like your party members are perpetually rich friends who take you from place to place, cover your inn stays, and stuff like that.
So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.

Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.
Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.

While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?

Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?

[Menzath]

Regarding gp : note that a gp is "a lot of money" for the purposes of this thread. Using goods to calculate the $ value of 1gp seems like a poor idea because of how crazy the prices of goods and services are in 3.5, so we'll be working off the "50 gp for a pound of gold", which brings us to "0.02 pounds of gold = 1 gp". Seeing as today's gold price is over 1500$ for 1 Troy ounce ounce of gold, and as there are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound, 1 gp is worth over 400$.
This weakens item crafting, and therefore works as intended.
However, this does make it difficult to qualify for Item Familiar. Poor Truenamers.


As noted by a response in this thread

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/107753/what-is-the-fineness-purity-of-gold-coins-in-dd

Historically gold coins have not been pure gold. And even though most DND settings have high magic to easily produce and mint pure gold coins, there are a few that do not, yet the gold in those settings have the same value as in others.

Also with the comparison of coin weight of gp to real coins supports this supposition.

In all the % of gold used in gold coins is likely half the coins volume, or less. This would drastically change gold coin to Dollar conversions.

[Ruethgar]

What is your ruling on the slightly more official settings books? Kingdom's of Kalamar, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance? Heck, full on third party in general, I haven't seen a restriction as of yet, not even on edition: d20 Modern/GURPS/PF/D&D 3.5 or 3.0.

Edit: Sans said restrictions, Gramarist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?291019-By-the-Inferior-Science-of-our-Enemies-Gramarie-Mark-II) ported to PF. It has massive building potential, but little to no combat ability. Doing one thing well, but their constructions can(eventually) build a wide versatility. Probably T4, maybe T3? Scientist is probably a T4, they can craft to T2, but that's not a class feature. Very limited spell selection and meh on other class abilities.

Human: Gramarist(GEOC) 9/Scientist 7/Gramerist 1/Scientist 3
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 13

Flaw: University EducationUltF
Flaw: Basic Magical Training
Fisrt: Adept Practitioner Progression
Human: Advanced Magical Training

Class: Skill Focus(Knowledge: Engineering)
Bonus: Arcane Current
Seventh: Create Device(Wondrous)
Bonus: Advanced Placement(YGGD 241)
Taint: Extra Credit, Extra Combat Talent, Craft Permanent Gadget
Fifteenth: Extra Credit

GEOC 101(Anima), BIOY 101(A), ARCD 101(A), HEUR 101, GEOC 117(A), GEOC 235(A), GEOC 291(A), YGGD 101(Linguistics), YGGD 212, YGGD 241
Wyrd Wetlands, Transient Poles

Technomancer Unified Tradition
TechnomancyBMT, Tech, Drone, Collapsible Vehicle, Techmaniac
Incompatible Energies, Techno-Miraculous, Skilled(Craft Mechanical), Easy Focus

Signal Attenuator
Automator
Turret
Efficient Drones x2
Battery
Repairable Drone
Improved User Interface
Emergency Gear
Camera
Load Bearer
Gravity Clip
Firefighter Equipment
Robot
Generator
Strength Of A Million And Seventy

Well nevermind, no gramaric spaceships for me.

[Vizzerdrix]

So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.

Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.

While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?

Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?

I'm not the only artificer, so +x gear will be around at least. I'll even make meat shield constructs for people.

Mmm. +5 AA12 shotguns with flechette/dragonsbreath rounds for EVERYONE!

Also, I suspect at least one person will find a way into the Lantan artificer prc sooner or later.

[White Blade]

So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.
Lol, I mean if you totally ignore both the real life ways vows of poverty functioned among medieval mendicants and the way that the Vow of Poverty restricts players, then I guess you could say that it’s getting around VoP. Voluntarily poor people are often patronized by charitable giving and even specific donors. Both Buddhist and Christian mendicants had a broad array of monasteries where they were able to stay. And vow of poverty is clearly intended to subtract from characters all their gadgets, not to make the PC physically uncomfortable. Now, there are some extreme forms of self-mortification that might have that purpose but none of them are tied to an exalted feat. Your wife supporting getting you a nice bed to sleep in and an okay breakfast isn’t somehow breaking a Vow of Poverty. The purpose of such vows is to forgo attachments and to foster dependency on others, which the method you described would do just fine.


Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?

Oh it’s slow.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Question: You mentioned on the first page taking Wedded to History for immortality, but I have seen contention on the boards that this doesn't actually make you immortal, just gives you one of the backgrounds commonly found on the immortal beings mentioned in the article from which the feat comes. Are you ruling that Wedded to History does, in fact, grant some form of immortality?
It makes you ageless (the RAI seems very clear, as does the fluff). If someone blows you to pieces, you still die.

Random people who are new to the system, with the books in front of them? … OK, sure, they could read "Leadership", see what it does, and hatch this plan.
People who do not know D&D, who are handed the opening post, and allowed to ask questions of a non-prompting AI?
If you ask "what are the ways of controlling people" or "what are the ways of controlling a head of state", Leadership will be one of the options. Examine the others, and you'll quickly see that it's a good one.
Whatever happens, people are meant to be able to make builds. If it were impossible for people who don't play D&D, they wouldn't have been chosen in the first place.

So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.I know that it's stupid, but that's exactly how it works. Of course if they "loan you things in perpetuity" any GM will balk, but regularly borrowing stuff from the same people seems to be fine. As long as it doesn't begin to feel like you own it, I'm ruling that it doesn't break the vow. This is an annoyance (you can't have your own stuff, clothes fitted to you that they own just for you, and always living in the same house tends to create a feeling of ownership...).

Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.
I'm uncertain as to the rules on crafting with SLAs. If it's possible by RAW, then fine (keeping in mind that 1 gp is expensive here of course, and that you'll have to source your crafting supplies which may sometimes be weird).

While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?
Those are fine.

What is your ruling on the slightly more official settings books? Kingdom's of Kalamar, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance? Heck, full on third party in general, I haven't seen a restriction as of yet, not even on edition: d20 Modern/GURPS/PF/D&D 3.5 or 3.0.
I would prefer to stick to 3.5 material. 3.0 is fine if it hasn't been updated, I guess. No to those specific settings if they don't qualify as official 3.5 books. In any case literally the only things I know about them are either cool but weak choices people won't take, or wildly OP things that would break this challenge (doesn't Ravenloft have magic items that work without magic, and that could probably get around my crafting limitations?).

[Ruethgar]

I would prefer to stick to 3.5 material. 3.0 is fine if it hasn't been updated, I guess. No to those specific settings if they don't qualify as official 3.5 books. In any case literally the only things I know about them are either cool but weak choices people won't take, or wildly OP things that would break this challenge (doesn't Ravenloft have magic items that work without magic, and that could probably get around my crafting limitations?).

PF gets around the XP reqs. Ravenloft wouldn't get around the requirements, but would get around the 'no spellcasting' in a manner of speaking, but it would also give a cooldown to the "magic" you tried to use and be extraordinarily expensive. Kalamar and Dragonlance I get mixed up, but the big ones there, in my mind, are Loyalty's Reward for a design your own feat, and the Master class for the potential to make/buy Legendary quality items(mostly a big deal for instruments and skill boosting items).

Edit: Legacy of the Blood and KoK Player's Guide appear to be under official WotC license, as opposed to just mentioning the OGL like all of Mongoose Publishing, Legends&Lairs, and AEG. Is that official enough to count? Also you did not specify a solid boundary. Would PF be allowed and if so would 3PP be permitted through it such as Spheres of Power and Might?

[RatElemental]

I'm thinking I could just go straight druid. Sure the spells won't work, but it seems all the other stuff like animal companion, wild shape, timeless body and thousand faces all would, and those all are incredibly useful on their own.

[Blue Wizard]

That aristocrat to leadership build looks good. I think I'll do the same, except I'll take Expert. That way I get more skill points and can choose any ten class skills. That way I can get Lucid Dreaming, and join the research team.

After all, what better way to do research than to tap into the collective unconscious of mankind? If nothing else, I can go into the dreams of people who we've been testing rituals on and learn what they know of it from their perspective. That probably doubles the knowledge learned from each experiment.

Also I'll take as my cohort an Artificier. He's 4th level now, so he'll have Craft Wondrous, and can take Create Construct as his bonus feat. I'll have him create a homuculus or two for each member of the research team. A normal one to be a body servant, doing fetching and cleaning and so on, and perhaps a dedicated wright to help in rituals. Each one, knowing what their master knows, gives them another roll on each knowledge check, or at least a +2 out of aid another. Then one or two shield guardians apiece to protect us.

He can also make items to grant competence bonuses to our skill checks, to make research go faster.

In year 2, when he gets Craft Rod, he can make a few of those things that boost our warlocks eldritch blasts.

In year 3, when I get high enough level for him to be 14th, he'll get Forge Ring, then we can all have Rings of Sustenance.

Hey anybody, would it be a good idea if I were to take truespeak as one of my skills? I don't know anything about it except people here keep talking about truenamers winning at level 20.

Edit: Oh! and make each of us one of those hand coral things. They sound useful.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

PF gets around the XP reqs. Ravenloft wouldn't get around the requirements, but would get around the 'no spellcasting' in a manner of speaking, but it would also give a cooldown to the "magic" you tried to use and be extraordinarily expensive. Kalamar and Dragonlance I get mixed up, but the big ones there, in my mind, are Loyalty's Reward for a design your own feat, and the Master class for the potential to make/buy Legendary quality items(mostly a big deal for instruments and skill boosting items).

Edit: Legacy of the Blood and KoK Player's Guide appear to be under official WotC license, as opposed to just mentioning the OGL like all of Mongoose Publishing, Legends&Lairs, and AEG. Is that official enough to count? Also you did not specify a solid boundary. Would PF be allowed and if so would 3PP be permitted through it such as Spheres of Power and Might?
Thanks for the explanation. I've looked at it, and for the purpose of this thread I'd prefer if we didn't use PF, didn't use 3PP, and didn't use Ravenloft or KoK.
3.5 is already a large pile of splats. I'm sure you can find something good in all of that!

That aristocrat to leadership build looks good. I think I'll do the same, except I'll take Expert.
Good thought. However Expert is Tier 5, while Aristocrat is Tier 6 - so it takes one extra year to get started with Expert.
Truespeak alone isn't that good - AFAIK you need the Truenamer class to get Gate, which is the reason why Truenamers are strong at level 20. Well, they can only use Gate if they can hit a DC 45 Truespeak check (+2 per previous activation today), which is actually rather hard without magical boosts, the Paragnostic Assembly, and Item Familiar. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that they don't really get Gate at-will : they'll run out of uses fairly quickly. Still, seven or eight Gates a day is rather good!

[Unavenger]

AFAIK their highest(level one is still worse than Panacea. Truenamers are very strong (because even a small number of Gates per day that don't cost XP is amazing, even though most of their other abilities are disappointing) but their effectiveness as Healers really depends on somehow finding a way to pump Truenaming checks without much gear, without the Paragnostic Assembly, and probably without an Item Familiar too.

They have the equivalent to a cobbled-together Greater Restoration, plus the ability to end anything that's a spell effect, on-tap too, by the by, and a few other nifty things.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm thinking I could just go straight druid. Sure the spells won't work, but it seems all the other stuff like animal companion, wild shape, timeless body and thousand faces all would, and those all are incredibly useful on their own.

So do you want to join the Animorphs?

[StSword]

Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.

Artificers, 12th+ level Warlocks, or just take the Sculpt Self feat and get whatever magic item benefits you were jonesing for as innate powers.

My clawlock enlightened fist will be going the Sculpt Self route, I figure the fact that it's thematically appropriate for my supernatural martial artist outweighs the cheese factor.

[Ruethgar]

Human
Generic Expert 4/Generic Warrior 16
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16

Flaw: Sculpt Self
Flaw: Magical Training
First: Silent Spell
Human: Still Spell
Generic: Quicken Spell
Class: Innate Spell(Extended Shades)
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Greater Shadow Evocation)
Third: Innate Spell(Extended Planar Bubble)
Generic: Innate Spell(Mass Heal)

Taint: Fell Animate, Innate Spell(Create Undead), Innate Spell(Fell Animate Mass Harm)
Generic: Turning
Class: Innate Spell(Extended Gate)
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Command Undead)
Sixth: Leadership
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Shadow Guardians)

Ninth: Rulership
Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Extended Shadow Landscape)
Twelfth: Extra Followers
Generic: Innate Spell(Fabricate)

Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph Any Object)
Fifteenth: Undead LeadershipLM
Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph)

Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Locate City)
Eighteenth: Undead Leadership (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)
Generic: Innate Spell(Bestow Curse)

Lucid Dream in a Legendary Master Library of Arcana, Psionics, Spellcraft and Psicraft(+60), or Rune Circle of the Omnisipher, doesn't really matter the method. Rune Circle of Time Stop(not reliant on spells since warlocks and artificers can cheat) for whatever arbitrary years of study you require and True Creation for materials. Use that knowledge to Sculpt Self for all spells lower than 0 at will, known and bonus spells per day(Extra slot for 15k per, but Bonus Spells in item creation is more ideal).

Similar method to become a necropilitan(next year) and add Shirt of Gentle Repose and Dark Metamorphosis(Dark Template) in the sculpt. Sculpt on Widen, Extend and Innate Spell(Restoration and Remove Curse).

Really wanted to go thematic and decently potent, but cut off from my usual routes, so OP it is.

[RatElemental]

So do you want to join the Animorphs?

Honestly it's the thousand faces that appeals to me most, but being able to turn into a t-rex at will is pretty neat too.

[Elricaltovilla]

Honestly it's the thousand faces that appeals to me most, but being able to turn into a t-rex at will is pretty neat too.

Yeah, Thousand Faces is pretty nifty. You can sort of do it with MoMF 1 though, because you can Wildshape into a humanoid.

I for one welcome all shapeshifters to the Animorphs.

[RatElemental]

Yeah, Thousand Faces is pretty nifty. You can sort of do it with MoMF 1 though, because you can Wildshape into a humanoid.

I for one welcome all shapeshifters to the Animorphs.

Ah but see, that would still have a limited duration. Still, I need to figure out a few ACFs, and I could still take 1 level of MoMF since I don't benefit from spellcasting anyway and I don't particularly care about turning into a huge elemental when I can whip out the aforementioned T-Rex form.

[Skysaber]

Ah but see, that would still have a limited duration. Still, I need to figure out a few ACFs, and I could still take 1 level of MoMF since I don't benefit from spellcasting anyway and I don't particularly care about turning into a huge elemental when I can whip out the aforementioned T-Rex form.

Elemental wildshape is actually a rather important landmark, because that's the one that grants you all of the extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities of the form you wildshape into. Thus, once paired with something like MoMFs, or the feat Aberrant Wildshape, you could become, say, a Beholder and get all of its eye rays.

Edit: And thus why Divine Minion is so important a template, as it starts you off wildshaping as an 11th level druid, and stacks. So you only need 5 more levels to get that vital elemental form.

[RatElemental]

Elemental wildshape is actually a rather important landmark, because that's the one that grants you all of the extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities of the form you wildshape into. Thus, once paired with something like MoMFs, or the feat Aberrant Wildshape, you could become, say, a Beholder and get all of its eye rays.

Edit: And thus why Divine Minion is so important a template, as it starts you off wildshaping as an 11th level druid, and stacks. So you only need 5 more levels to get that vital elemental form.

Oh I wouldn't be giving up elemental wildshape, just the capstone of being able to turn into huge ones.

[Skysaber]

Are you planning on using a ritual to level drain yourself, and then another to use Restoration to take different levels the second time? That's the only way to rebuild levels that I can think of (in the other thread, troaccid gave good reasons for normal rebuilding rules being unavailable IRL).

Note that researching rituals takes a long time, so it isn't actually a valid way to speed-level yourself (this is a basic balance factor to avoid making the entire thread irrelevant). It likely won't be much slower to just level normally without taking the risks of ritual use. However if you want to rush Leadership and eventually have a good class, it is a valid strategy.

All Troaccid said was that "you would need something on the scale of *checks notes* an ancient mystical portal with legendary transformative properties, or an interdimensional rift where the universal forces of creation and destruction converge."

And I happen to know of a place where the powers of Death and Hell were broken forever. {Scrubbed} That's a bit more significant than a simple portal or rift, I think.

{Scrubbed}

No, we've got "the universal forces of creation and destruction" covered. So rebuild quests are on the table. But if you want to artificially slow their pace so we can't acquire good classes any faster than taking them directly, that's fine too.

Actually, just checked up on rituals again in SS, and they can be acquired every time you would pick up a new level of spells. So our friend RatElemental, who is taking druid 1 this year, could start out with the Ritual of Vitality, which is one of the primary methods of switching species.

Although rituals do cost a great deal more than I'd been hoping.

Normally, gp would be quite a problem, but I am an Aristocrat. By definition, I am related to money, lots of it. This is the class reflecting Paris Hilton and those like her - nothing much by themselves, but related to enough money to be ridiculously spoiled by it.

At minimum I must be supported by someone with real wealth, like bankers or oil money or celebrities or something, or the class itself makes no sense because Aristocrat if the definition of wealthy and privileged. So sure, my personal wealth might not be so much, but that just leaves me in the position of every hanger-on to wealth in history - begging my family for money.

{Scrubbed}

Yeah, I think I can afford an Item Familiar. Furthermore, my Familiar can have an Item Familiar, as can my cohort.

No, the problem would be the xp. I seem to recall one of the online web articles by WOTC that had a solution, using other's xp for item creation purposes, but its been so long since seeing it that I've forgotten.

Anyone else have that data?

[Sinner's Garden]

All Troaccid said was that "you would need something on the scale of *checks notes* an ancient mystical portal with legendary transformative properties, or an interdimensional rift where the universal forces of creation and destruction converge."

And I happen to know of a place where the powers of Death and Hell were broken forever. {Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote} That's a bit more significant than a simple portal or rift, I think.

{Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote}

No, we've got "the universal forces of creation and destruction" covered. So rebuild quests are on the table. But if you want to artificially slow their pace so we can't acquire good classes any faster than taking them directly, that's fine too.

Actually, just checked up on rituals again in SS, and they can be acquired every time you would pick up a new level of spells. So our friend RatElemental, who is taking druid 1 this year, could start out with the Ritual of Vitality, which is one of the primary methods of switching species.

Although rituals do cost a great deal more than I'd been hoping.

Normally, gp would be quite a problem, but I am an Aristocrat. By definition, I am related to money, lots of it. This is the class reflecting Paris Hilton and those like her - nothing much by themselves, but related to enough money to be ridiculously spoiled by it.

At minimum I must be supported by someone with real wealth, like bankers or oil money or celebrities or something, or the class itself makes no sense because Aristocrat if the definition of wealthy and privileged. So sure, my personal wealth might not be so much, but that just leaves me in the position of every hanger-on to wealth in history - begging my family for money.

{Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote}

Yeah, I think I can afford an Item Familiar. Furthermore, my Familiar can have an Item Familiar, as can my cohort.

No, the problem would be the xp. I seem to recall one of the online web articles by WOTC that had a solution, using other's xp for item creation purposes, but its been so long since seeing it that I've forgotten.

Anyone else have that data?

{Scrubbed}

Savage Species rituals are always a barrel of fun, but unfortunately, there is nothing mechanically supporting your supposition that Aristocrats must be wealthy nobility, as they do not have any mechanical representations of their wealth or social influence the way some other classes do. Either way, I also recall the article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)you discuss; fortunately, I have a back-up of their archives, so it is very easy to identify.

[Maat Mons]

Earlier, I'd asked "If we take levels in spellcasting classes, can we then take things that have spellcasting as a prerequisite, even though our spells don't work?" I thought I'd gotten a "Yes." But I guess I misunderstood.



At the rate of $400 / gp, the Profession skill is looking tempting.

If someone dips one level of Cleric, he can use the Domain Focus ACF and the Commerce domain to add $4,000 per week to his income.

Any 20th-level character should be earning upwards of $200k per year if he's invested max ranks.



Do the following items work in this setting?

Bed of Wellness (Remove Disease): Costs over $3 million dollars to craft, but can cure a few thousand cases of cancer each day.

Platform of Healing: Costs $12 million to craft, but apparently cures cancer as fast as cancer patients can walk across it.

Bed of Regeneration: Costs about $20 million dollars to craft, but it can restore several hundred limbs each day.



I'm currently considering Psion (Egoist) 1, for that Mind's Eye ACF that that gives Minor Shange Shape, as the Changling racial trait. I'll definitely be taking Wedded to History and Troll Blooded at 1st level, assuming flaws are allowed. I'll also definitely be taking Sculpt Self. I have great confidence in our collective research capability.

I'm very undecided on the other 19 levels though.

I'm tempted to take Paladin 4. With ACFs, you can get the ability to detect lies, and immunity to death effects, compulsion, and disease.

Artificer, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, Incarnate, and Warlock are all in the running for getting a most of my level.

For weird builds, I momentarily considered Artificer 5 / Renegade Mastermaker 10 / Warforged Juggernaut 5, but it turns out not to grant as many immunities as I had assumed it would.

Shockingly, Psion 5 / Crystal Master 6 / Slayer 9 is a valid build under these restrictions. It only requires manifester level 5 and a power point reserve, not the ability to actually manifest powers. But this to, I unltimately decided against.



Would anyone consider Barbarian 19 for the Cleaving Charge ability? It's ubercharging against multiple enemies per round, which should be pretty powerful in a world without spellcasting. I'm not taking it myself, because I'm not going anywhere near danger. But having someone with that ability could really help out in fights.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

OP Build]Interesting build.
I'm curious. How are you qualifying for Innate Spell?

[retraining stuff]
You outline several main ideas :
- {Scrubbed}
- Druids getting SS rituals (clever!). I don't have the book in front of me so I can't check if they're usable. Do you need a member of the target species available as part of the ritual?
- Aristocrat making you a billionaire. What? Aristocrats grant you a large starting wealth, but starting wealth doesn't apply here. Literally nowhere does it say that Aristocrat suddenly grants you a huge pile of cash. You're working off pure fluff text, forgetting that poor Aristocrats absolutely are a thing. Take Leadership if you want to be friends with Soros or Gates.

Thank you to Sinner's Garden for the post and link.


Earlier, I'd asked "If we take levels in spellcasting classes, can we then take things that have spellcasting as a prerequisite, even though our spells don't work?" I thought I'd gotten a "Yes." But I guess I misunderstood.
Oops. Sorry, that was my bad. I misread and thought you were asking about caster levels. I'll go back and edit my post.
EDIT : I couldn't actually find such a post to edit.
Although you could get into something that required "spellcasting", just not something that requires you to actually cast the spells.


At the rate of $400 / gp, the Profession skill is looking tempting.

If someone dips one level of Cleric, he can use the Domain Focus ACF and the Commerce domain to add $4,000 per week to his income.

Any 20th-level character should be earning upwards of $200k per year if he's invested max ranks.
This is seriously weird, but I love it. Profession (gambling) will tell you exactly how to make thousands of $$$ a week just by gambling!
Good thought. However I'll ask people to stick to Professions that make some sense, or to accept that sometimes "knowing how to make a lot of money" doesn't translate to "actually succeeding". Otherwise the reality warping granted by a nonmagical skill just gets too huge.


Do the following items work in this setting?

Bed of Wellness (Remove Disease): Costs over $3 million dollars to craft, but can cure a few thousand cases of cancer each day.

Platform of Healing: Costs $12 million to craft, but apparently cures cancer as fast as cancer patients can walk across it.

Bed of Regeneration: Costs about $20 million dollars to craft, but it can restore several hundred limbs each day.



I'm currently considering Psion (Egoist) 1, for that Mind's Eye ACF that that gives Minor Shange Shape, as the Changling racial trait. I'll definitely be taking Wedded to History and Troll Blooded at 1st level, assuming flaws are allowed. I'll also definitely be taking Sculpt Self. I have great confidence in our collective research capability.

I'm very undecided on the other 19 levels though.

I'm tempted to take Paladin 4. With ACFs, you can get the ability to detect lies, and immunity to death effects, compulsion, and disease.

Artificer, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, Incarnate, and Warlock are all in the running for getting a most of my level.

For weird builds, I momentarily considered Artificer 5 / Renegade Mastermaker 10 / Warforged Juggernaut 5, but it turns out not to grant as many immunities as I had assumed it would.

Shockingly, Psion 5 / Crystal Master 6 / Slayer 9 is a valid build under these restrictions. It only requires manifester level 5 and a power point reserve, not the ability to actually manifest powers. But this to, I unltimately decided against.



Would anyone consider Barbarian 19 for the Cleaving Charge ability? It's ubercharging against multiple enemies per round, which should be pretty powerful in a world without spellcasting. I'm not taking it myself, because I'm not going anywhere near danger. But having someone with that ability could really help out in fights.
All these items work fine. Your builds are also fine (and I find the Psion one very clever).

[vasilidor]

{Scrubbed}

[Sinner's Garden]

Although you could get into something that required "spellcasting", just not something that requires you to actually cast the spells.

This is seriously weird, but I love it. Profession (gambling) will tell you exactly how to make thousands of $$$ a week just by gambling!
Good thought. However I'll ask people to stick to Professions that make some sense, or to accept that sometimes "knowing how to make a lot of money" doesn't translate to "actually succeeding". Otherwise the reality warping granted by a nonmagical skill just gets too huge.

So does this mean that Magical Training + Sanctum Spell can salvage my build, since I possess "the ability to cast second level spells" even though I can't, actually, cast spells due to cosomology (limited magic, maybe) issues? And the skill check for making money, IIRC, is being a playwright; 500g paycheck or something.

[Ruethgar]

Interesting build.
I'm curious. How are you qualifying for Innate Spell?

Magical Training let’s me get the feats, Sculpting Extra Slot or Bonus Spells for any slot works fine since all of the spells listed can be learned as level -14 to 9 spells(minimum -23). Could sculpt on Sanctum and it would work directly with Extra Slot in the traditional sense if you would prefer, it’s not like there’s a significant limit on how many feats I could Sculpt on in an instant of sleep.

[Menzath]

So, after more deliberation and reading others posts and re-reading the main post I think I'll change my build again. But before I do, a few questions.

So caster levels can qualify for having caster level, and spellcaster requirements, but not for actually casting any specific spells, do I have that right?
How would that function with reserve feats? Can I still put spells into spell slots to power them?

Also without foreknowledge of how the specifics of crafting magic items might work, and the new influx of people buying up rare materials, this might make crafting initially a crapshoot.

I'd rather not leave so many things up to uncertainties.

[Windcaller]

Can I become a Soulknife? Maybe Pathfinder's Soulknife, which is not a ****ty class? If it is possible, which tier would it be? 4? Maybe even 3?

Edit: I just noticed I would be a terrible (PF) Soulknife. With my outstanding 8 Wisdom, I would never be able to get Psionic Meditation, and thus, recovering my psionic focus would be a nightmare.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Human
Generic Expert 4/Generic Warrior 16
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16

Flaw: Sculpt Self
Flaw: Magical Training
First: Silent Spell
Human: Still Spell
Generic: Quicken Spell
Class: Innate Spell(Extended Shades)
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Greater Shadow Evocation)
Third: Innate Spell(Extended Planar Bubble)
Generic: Innate Spell(Mass Heal)

Taint: Fell Animate, Innate Spell(Create Undead), Innate Spell(Fell Animate Mass Harm)
Generic: Turning
Class: Innate Spell(Extended Gate)
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Command Undead)
Sixth: Leadership
Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Shadow Guardians)

Ninth: Rulership
Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Extended Shadow Landscape)
Twelfth: Extra Followers
Generic: Innate Spell(Fabricate)

Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph Any Object)
Fifteenth: Undead LeadershipLM
Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph)

Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Locate City)
Eighteenth: Undead Leadership (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)
Generic: Innate Spell(Bestow Curse)

Lucid Dream in a Legendary Master Library of Arcana, Psionics, Spellcraft and Psicraft(+60), or Rune Circle of the Omnisipher, doesn't really matter the method. Rune Circle of Time Stop(not reliant on spells since warlocks and artificers can cheat) for whatever arbitrary years of study you require and True Creation for materials. Use that knowledge to Sculpt Self for all spells lower than 0 at will, known and bonus spells per day(Extra slot for 15k per, but Bonus Spells in item creation is more ideal).

Similar method to become a necropilitan(next year) and add Shirt of Gentle Repose and Dark Metamorphosis(Dark Template) in the sculpt. Sculpt on Widen, Extend and Innate Spell(Restoration and Remove Curse).

Really wanted to go thematic and decently potent, but cut off from my usual routes, so OP it is.

... What? How are you getting that dozen high level spells as Innate? You need actual spell slots to power that, and to furthermore know those spells.

Legendary Master Library? Rune Circle of what?

@edit: Reading what I missed, your plan is to somehow learn Shades and Gate and all of that as spells of negative level? Double what?

[Telonius]

Hmm. Thinking about this one quite a bit. As a "me-personally" thing, I'd probably go with Rogue1/WarlockX. Healer would be my go-to for what I absolutely want to be able to do with D&D-ish powers, but alignment ... not sure I'd qualify. Definitely Chaotic, not so sure about the Good part.

[EDIT] -misread the initial post saying that Dragon is allowed. Changing up first-level feats as a result.

1 Rogue - Able Learner (1st), Craven (Human), Inattentive (Flaw), Wedded to History (Survivor) (from Flaw)
2 Warlock 1 Darkness invocation
3 Warlock 2 Blend into Shadows feat, Beguiling Influence invocation

And on from there.

Abilities:

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 15

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: If real world religions or politics tie into your build, please forego posting any details about them.

[Ruethgar]

... What? How are you getting that dozen high level spells as Innate? You need actual spell slots to power that, and to furthermore know those spells.

Mind Mage reduce a spell by 22 levels. When caught by a Spellhoarder and learned through various means, it drop the heighten effects. So with a Sculpted all spells in existence*(-22+original level)*2000*CL40 for all at will, then again for known via Runestaff or via getting psionics and going Expanded Knowledge(can be explicitly from any list and StP powers are still labeled as spells for you to know), then potentially again with the Bonus Spells function(but more safely with Extra Slot) you have a glut of XP to use on Sculpting on pretty much as many feats as you could want. I decided to not go stratosphere with it. With the infinite time available in a dream you can research all of this.

Though I do somewhat fear that I would end up like that one mutant from... IDK it had a crossover with Ben 10, never saw many episodes. Well she basically went to the point of looking crazy, though potentially because she had gained such vast knowledge from living in her own presumably fast time demiplanes that she was beyond human grasp. Or she was just crazy. Tried to reconnect with the protagonist but couldn't make him understand despite his efforts. In which case I might well devolve into some sort of eldritch horror of unfathomable knowledge. Regardless, I'm going to leave this post.

It did give me an idea for a fun sounding PF character though. Fighter(Coiled Blade, Myrmidon, Martial Master) 20, Extra Combat Talent is a (Combat) feat so a lot of fun can be had there with Martial Master, thinking going Tech with it and let Myrmidon be pretty much all my combat.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Anyway, something pretty interesting is Shadowcaster. As usual for it, it will suck a lot very early on, but it will gradually get better, and fairly rapidly.

With Favored Mystery, you can even have some real high level spell-equivalents work.

Mind Mage reduce a spell by 22 levels. When caught by a Spellhoarder and learned through various means, it drop the heighten effects. So with a Sculpted all spells in existence*(-22+original level)*2000*CL40 for all at will, then again for known via Runestaff or via getting psionics and going Expanded Knowledge(can be explicitly from any list and StP powers are still labeled as spells for you to know), then potentially again with the Bonus Spells function(but more safely with Extra Slot) you have a glut of XP to use on Sculpting on pretty much as many feats as you could want. I decided to not go stratosphere with it. With the infinite time available in a dream you can research all of this.

Though I do somewhat fear that I would end up like that one mutant from... IDK it had a crossover with Ben 10, never saw many episodes. Well she basically went to the point of looking crazy, though potentially because she had gained such vast knowledge from living in her own presumably fast time demiplanes that she was beyond human grasp. Or she was just crazy. Tried to reconnect with the protagonist but couldn't make him understand despite his efforts. In which case I might well devolve into some sort of eldritch horror of unfathomable knowledge. Regardless, I'm going to leave this post.

It did give me an idea for a fun sounding PF character though. Fighter(Coiled Blade, Myrmidon, Martial Master) 20, Extra Combat Talent is a (Combat) feat so a lot of fun can be had there with Martial Master, thinking going Tech with it and let Myrmidon be pretty much all my combat.
How does a Mind Mage reduce spell levels by 22?

"Caught by a Spellhoarder and learned through various means"? Drop what heighten effects?

So, the plan is to, through dreaming, create a library of unfathomable resourcefulness on a plane where time doesn't pass, someway somehow do this negative spell level trick which includes but is not limited to a Mind Mage teaching a Spellhoarding Dragon some spells, dream into existence material components of negative worth but millionaire absolute value, carve spells into a dream-runestaff for negative expended XP so you can then Sculp yourself, still in your dream library of awesome, some negative-leveled slots.

And then somehow that all works out into you... Retraining your feats when you wake up into the proposed build?

There are so many "Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit" steps to this plan it's nigh incomprehensible. To say nothing of how you'd gain the ability to even comprehend in more than abstract terms of "I want to do this now".

[Menzath]

Mind Mage.... When caught by a Spellhoarder and learned....SNIP...

I am going to agree with TotallyNotEvil, you make the assumption there will be a mind mage, which with the current restrictions there may not be many casters at all.

Then the assumption is made that there will be dragons, of which some are also assumed to be spell hoarding.
Do any of these exist in the world right now? Have we been given a reason to believe they will exist?

This is part of why I revoked my crafter build, I have no idea what usable xp I will have available to craft with, and who or what is deciding the gold coin to real monies conversions.
Since I don't know, it's all assumptions and highly up to chance, I'd rather not stake my life on something so flimsy.

[Quertus]

Fwiw, iirc, Savage Species lets you use a Wish to simply become something else.


Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.

Well, if the "bad stuff" is monsters, we harvest the heck outta them for components.

If the "bad stuff" is basically, well, "red team / blue team" counterparts to us, they've got the same limits we do.

Etc.

Yes, it's a bummer in a void, where some builds don't function without items.


If you ask "what are the ways of controlling people" or "what are the ways of controlling a head of state", Leadership will be one of the options. Examine the others, and you'll quickly see that it's a good one.
Whatever happens, people are meant to be able to make builds. If it were impossible for people who don't play D&D, they wouldn't have been chosen in the first place.

I guess I read too much into getting no reply when poking the interface for "skill builds".


Artificers, 12th+ level Warlocks, or just take the Sculpt Self feat and get whatever magic item benefits you were jonesing for as innate powers.

My clawlock enlightened fist will be going the Sculpt Self route, I figure the fact that it's thematically appropriate for my supernatural martial artist outweighs the cheese factor.

In the context of, "XP? what XP?", I don't think you can call Sculpt Self "cheese".

(Really, I don't think you should call it cheese in any case, unless you have a "better" way of accomplishing self-evolution in RAW.)


Mödley Crüe: If real world religions or politics tie into your build, please forego posting any details about them.

Thank you for explaining why, when I came back to this thread, so much that I hadn't read was scrubbed. *Plans to check the parts that they had read for comparison, to try to see what level of detail/reference is acceptable*

[Quertus]

Psionics don't work. You've turned your psionics into a (Su) ability, but they're still psionics. Nonfunctional build.


Hey, this is just me ruling. But as far as I can tell, that feat changes the way the ability works but doesn't change its name. And this is an ability that has been forbidden by name.
To be honest, I'm sticking to my "no spellcasting or psionics" ruling. It's just as arbitrary as the "no infinite loops", and you've already remarked on that.


Supernatural abilities do, however. And if [Sp] abilities work, so do [Ps], as there are numerous psionic abilities marked [Sp] and the differences between [Sp] and [Ps] are marginal. The original post itself said that [Sp] and [Su] abilities work, and my build's abilities are all [Su] due to turning my [Ps] into [Su]. By the original post's own rules, it's fine.


Spellcasting and Psionic powers do not function, nor do magic items which depend on them (or magic items generated by feats such as Ancestral Relic or Legacy Item feats). Item Familiars cannot take Weapon or Armour properties, but can become sentient and get sentient item abilities and can of course boost your skills.
Invocations, Truenaming, Incarnum, Mysteries, Binds and other (Sp) and (Su) abilities still work - this isn't a ban on magic as a whole

So, I'm still unclear why (Su) didn't work, when the OP says that (Su) do work. And, apparently, truenamers can Gate, so "banned by name" doesn't make sense, either.


If you ask "what are the ways of controlling people" or "what are the ways of controlling a head of state", Leadership will be one of the options. Examine the others, and you'll quickly see that it's a good one.

OK, how about…

"What are the ways of achieving functional 'tier 1' / 9th level casting power?"

"What are the ways to successfully Resurrect people?"

"What are the ways to become undead? To become an aberration? To become an undead aberration?"

"What are the ways to split someone's soul into a million pieces, each of which will still be begging for death long after the sun has grown cold?"

Does the interface respond to any of those queries?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Factotum has a seventh level spell and a bunch of sixth per day at max level. SM VII could do Raise Dead through a Deva.

Shadowcaster should actually be one of the strongest casters around, as the quick progression will take it off the really bad early game quick, and late you can use Favored Mystery to bring your 7th-9th level Mysteries, which are quite good, down to 2/day SLAs like your 4-6th ones.

Especially with the author's errata, a mid-high level Shadowcaster can be built to be more than decent.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

I would go with Factotum. The ability to call movanic deva and a hollyphant with lesser planar binding at level 13 and ask them to hallow, say every hospital emergency entrance in the world with heal and raise dead is just too tempting. Or, if neither of those are available, see if remove disease and neutralize poison are, and just call 2 movanic devas. Sure, it has to be renewed yearly, but the ability to just cure most of the world of diseases is too tempting a prospect. Plus, it helps that Factotum is a good class on its own. This could be done with Binder as well, but it's a little less efficient since it can't be done till EBL 16, and you have to travel to every location you wish to hallow. It does have the advantage of being more than 3/day though.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, I think I've got the broad points of my build hammered out.

Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 12
Int: 15 (level-up increases go here)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Year 1: Factotum 1-3
Year 2: Psion (Egoist) 1 <Change Shape ACF>
Year 3: Factotum 4-6
Year 4: Factotum 7-9
Year 5: Factotum 11-12
Year 6: Factotum 14-15
Year 7: Factotum 16-18
Year 8: Factotum 19

Flaws: City Slicker, Noncombatant

Feats
1: Sculpt Self, Toughness, Troll-Blooded, Wedded to History
3: Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind)
6: Font of Inspiration
8: Font of Inspiration
12: Martial Study (Mind over Body)
15: Font of Inspiration
18: Font of Inspiration

Skills: ??? (221 skill points? Maybe? Does the Int bonus apply to the skills for the level I gain it on?)

Skill Tricks: Assume Quirk?, Collector of Stories?, Second Impression?, Social Recovery?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Very neat Maat! Tho is there anything one can do to mitigate the fatigue in sunlight from Troll-Blooded?

I think I would go for a very similar build myself, but Factotum 19/Initiator 1, with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered taken early to help in combat. Maybe the same feats at first, but Imperious Command and Leadership at 6th and 9th, and not take those Martial Study feats.

I'm unsure if I would take a world leader or billionaire as Cohort, or give my younger brother Wedded to History + Super-powers (like with Warlock). Probably the latter, amd maybe even fit in Leadership for him.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

A clarification regarding Shadowcasters : yes, they work. Even when they only have a mystery 1/day and it is cast as an arcane spell, they can still cast it. It isn't really an arcane spell, after all, it just works exactly like one. This is weird but it's confirmed by how they qualify for PrCs, so whatever.
And Shadowcaster isn't intended to be blocked here, anyway.

Honestly something like Shadowcaster 6/Ruathar 3/Divine Oracle 10/Shadowcaster +1 (to 7, to get all the bonus feats at once and take Favored Mystery at lot) is rather good and perfectly functional, and counts as Tier 4 throughout so you'll level at a decent speed. Only weakness (and reason I'm not super hyped on taking it myself) is that other than fast travel, the divination mysteries and Greater Shadow Evocation, it doesn't have a lot to offer out of combat.

Although Shadowcasters do have specific multiclassing rules regarding Mystic Theurge that let them qualify and let them be either side of it. So AFAIK a Shadowcaster 3/Warlock3/Mystic Theurge 10/whatever 4 works!

Maat Moons, your build is great. I didn't know about that Psion ACF, but it's an amazing way to get that excellent Changeling ability!
I've been trying to think of things to do with your power points, and all that I can think of is Ebon Saint. If you take 3 levels there you gain the ability to use your power points to pluck information from someone's mind with no save allowed, and to read thoughts (Will negates). It's a rogue PrC so it has good skills. The best use of it that I can think of is Psion (Change Shape ACF) 1, then 3 levels in Invisible Fist Sidewinder Monk (for sneak attack and a bonus feat to better qualify for Ebon Saint) and a level in Marshal (good if you're pumping Cha for Leadership or social skills) or perhaps an Initiator, then 3 levels in Ebon Saint, and then finish with an Initiator build.
As you can see, this is still a mess. Do you know a better way to put your power point reserve to use?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Oh, if even the 1/day works, then it's a very powerful choice.

And I disagree about not contributing much to combat. Killing Shadows ends up as 3/day and is a 10d8 cone of untyped damage.

Umbra like Touch deals 5d6 but also Slows targets, multiple uses per casting.

All three Dark Terrain Mysteries, while low level, as perfectly workable as CC effects- make something harder terrain, a short wall of cold with uncapped damage and AoE save-vs-immobility.

Warp Spell is an immediate action Counter that get you a bonus use of a lower level Mystery if succesful.

The more humble Shadow Evocation and False Life are nothing to scoff at. Wings of Flurry is a fourth level evocation spell that deals uncapped force damage, Dazes on a failed save and only hits enemies in its large radius, and it's perfectly elegible for Shadow Evocation.

All three spells from Darkened Alleys are good. Fear, but in a huge 30ft radius cloud of darkness, a larger Stinking Cloud that still Sickens of a succesful save and a very interesting "anyone damaged in this area eats a negative level" spell.

As normal Plane Shift, Pass Into Shadows works well as SoL.

Shadow Storm is Chain Lightning. It's not the cream of the crop as far as blasting spells go, but hey, 20d6/10d6 with select fire is not the worst use of an action.

All three Breath of Twillight mysteries are acceptable to very good offensive abilities, Soul Puppet is Dominate Monster, the summoning spells give you incorporeal summons and only take a standard action to cast (and they go well with Deadly Shade).

And this is just some the offensive stuff. There are good buffs and debuffs, such as Bolster, Umbral Body and Truth Revealed, or extraordinary effects like Flicker and Shadow of Time.

Simple Control Winds can annihilate stuff by making a tornado.

Tho Talon, you start getting the bonus feats at Lv 2, not 7.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Oh, if even the 1/day works, then it's a very powerful choice.

And I disagree about not contributing much to combat. Killing Shadows ends up as 3/day and is a 10d8 cone of untyped damage.

Umbra like Touch deals 5d6 but also Slows targets, multiple uses per casting.

All three Dark Terrain Mysteries, while low level, as perfectly workable as CC effects- make something harder terrain, a short wall of cold with uncapped damage and AoE save-vs-immobility.

Warp Spell is an immediate action Counter that get you a bonus use of a lower level Mystery if succesful.

The more humble Shadow Evocation and False Life are nothing to scoff at. Wings of Flurry is a fourth level evocation spell that deals uncapped force damage, Dazes on a failed save and only hits enemies in its large radius, and it's perfectly elegible for Shadow Evocation.

All three spells from Darkened Alleys are good. Fear, but in a huge 30ft radius cloud of darkness, a larger Stinking Cloud that still Sickens of a succesful save and a very interesting "anyone damaged in this area eats a negative level" spell.

As normal Plane Shift, Pass Into Shadows works well as SoL.

Shadow Storm is Chain Lightning. It's not the cream of the crop as far as blasting spells go, but hey, 20d6/10d6 with select fire is not the worst use of an action.

All three Breath of Twillight mysteries are acceptable to very good offensive abilities, Soul Puppet is Dominate Monster, the summoning spells give you incorporeal summons and only take a standard action to cast (and they go well with Deadly Shade).

And this is just some the offensive stuff. There are good buffs and debuffs, such as Bolster, Umbral Body and Truth Revealed, or extraordinary effects like Flicker and Shadow of Time.

Simple Control Winds can annihilate stuff by making a tornado.
I suspect you may have misread my post. I said it didn't have much to offer out of combat.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I suspect you may have misread my post. I said it didn't have much to offer out of combat.
... Yeah, I totally did.

Unveil is notable for removing diseases, besides a boatload of stuff, too.

@edit: With the unofficial Errata for it, you get a number of bonus feats equal to the number of paths you complete, so in a way it helps to get Favored Mysteries of higher levels by juggling it carefully. You also get bonus mysteries per day based on CHA, and the biggest fix: doesn't need to take them in order.

Tho I had forgotten that it's a dual-stat caster. On an elite array, you are pretty out of luck by needing to pump INT to 19, leaving you with, at best CHA 15. Your save DCs are going to suck unless you boost them through feats.

[Telonius]

Quick question on invocations - if it's listed "as the spell," (Warlocks' Charm or Cold Comfort, for instance), we can assume it still works, correct?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Quick question on invocations - if it's listed "as the spell," (Warlocks' Charm or Cold Comfort, for instance), we can assume it still works, correct?
Yes indeed!


... Yeah, I totally did.

Unveil is notable for removing diseases, besides a boatload of stuff, too.

@edit: With the unofficial Errata for it, you get a number of bonus feats equal to the number of paths you complete, so in a way it helps to get Favored Mysteries of higher levels by juggling it carefully. You also get bonus mysteries per day based on CHA, and the biggest fix: doesn't need to take them in order.

Tho I had forgotten that it's a dual-stat caster. On an elite array, you are pretty out of luck by needing to pump INT to 19, leaving you with, at best CHA 15. Your save DCs are going to suck unless you boost them through feats.
Note that it's always possible to take Vow of Poverty for the stat boosts :D

[TotallyNotEvil]

What's the point of superpowers if you can't properly enjoy material comforts :smallannoyed:

I think that, as a Shadowcaster, I'd be forever envious of the omnisavant Factotums and, as a Factotum, I'd be forever jealous that these ****ers that get Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Dominate Monster, etc.

I suppose Factotum would be a Tony Stark build as opposed to Shadowcaster's Doctor Strange.

[White Blade]

Does cancer count as a disease in 3.5?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Why wouldn't it?

[Maat Mons]

Oh man, I completely forgot that Troll-Blooded comes with that "fatigued in sunlight" clause. I guess I'll have to use Sculpt Self to duplicate the benefits of a Heavy Legs graft.

That'll cost 1,200 xp... and whatever the time/money costs of research are. On the plus side, I can eventually swing a +47 modifier on whatever Knowledge skill is used for that.

Which reminds me. Are we just using standard D&D 3.5 Knowledge skills? Or are we adding new ones to account for modern science?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Sculpt Self is neat, but given the constraints in time, money and the dangers involved, I think plain item crafting is a better bet if at all available.

Someone is gonna make Warlocks with crafting feats, or straight up Artificers (even if those will take a few years to really level).

That, and some more general stuff like developing a ritual to grant good templates, such as Phrenic and Half-Celestial.

Cunning Brilliance is far less good than I thought, as I didn't see the one minute, one activation per day.

Talon, do you rule that Cunning Strike qualifies Factotum for Craven?

I'm also interested in knowing about the skills as they change in a modern setting.

@edit: Tireless should solve the Fatigue issue from Troll Blooded. Wedded To History, Toughness, Troll Blooded and Tireless as first level feats seems great.

[Quertus]

Sculpt Self is neat, but given the constraints in time, money and the dangers involved, I think plain item crafting is a better bet if at all available.

Someone is gonna make Warlocks with crafting feats, or straight up Artificers (even if those will take a few years to really level).

That, and some more general stuff like developing a ritual to grant good templates, such as Phrenic and Half-Celestial.

Cunning Brilliance is far less good than I thought, as I didn't see the one minute, one activation per day.

Talon, do you rule that Cunning Strike qualifies Factotum for Craven?

I'm also interested in knowing about the skills.

Artificer cohorts apparently level at your rate, not theirs. So one could be decent day 1.

Speaking of, my (IMO) more reasonable version of "Leapfrogging skills" goes like this: get someone to craft a skill boosting item. Even a +1 should work. Take it off and put it on repeatedly. With it in, attempt to document the additional knowledge that it grants. With it off, "study" (shudder) that knowledge. Repeat until you have covered enough of the differences to gain at least one rank, and stay learning new new stuff. Document that, repeat.

If I time it right, my Artificer cohort could be augmenting the skill boosting item while I'm not using it (studying, asleep, etc), in case a higher bonus makes the leapfrogging process easier (personally, I would expect that at least a +2 would be optimal).

… also, what makes Phrenic and Half-Celestial good templates?

[TotallyNotEvil]

… also, what makes Phrenic and Half-Celestial good templates?
A lot.

Psi-Like Abilities are automatically augmented as if you spent the maximum amount of pp you could, and phrenic has your ML = HD, so you are effectivelly going full-blast with every ability.

It's worth nothing that Powers usually scale greatly with augmenting.

Phrenic gives you a whopping sixteen different powers, all of which are decent to great, and with generous uses per day. On top of that, you get Power Resistance scaling with your HD and INT +2 Wis +2 CHA +4.

You effectively become a bootleg Psion.

Half-Celestial is similarly great: fifteen SLAs, some of which are true powerhouses: Ressurection, SM IX, Holy Aura (3/day!), Holy Word, Mass Charm Monster. All of these are well above the expected "power level" for this challenge, as they are great in an environment with working casters.

On top of that, you get wings with a fly speed of twice your ground one with the capability to hover, +1 NA, at-will Daylight, Darkvision, immunity to disease, Resistance 10 to three elements, DR 10/magic, good SR scaling with HD, a bonus against poison and a Smite.

On top of that, stat adjustments: STR +4, DEX +2, CON +4, INT +2, WIS +4, CHA +4.

You really do become half-angel: powerful cleric staples that scale with your level, all around good boosts to everything, resistances, SR, etc.

[Elricaltovilla]

Do SLAs and PLAs work under these rule constraints though?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Do SLAs and PLAs work under these rule constraints though?
Yes, Factotum casting for example, works. So does even the highest level of Shadowcaster casting.

[Vizzerdrix]

Someone is gonna make Warlocks with crafting feats, or straight up Artificers (even if those will take a few years to really level).

I'm going full artificer. I suspect an average New England day will be overcast enough to suffice. A level of horizon walker will fix it too.

[Hurnn]

I think i still just go druid. wild shape is still a super sweet power, and you get the full powered animal companion.

[RatElemental]

Speaking of going druid, I'm finally gonna sit down and figure this out.

Druid 19/MoMF 1 probably

ACFs: City Soul, Iron Constitution, Skilled City-Dweller (trading ride for tumble and survival for sense motive), Voice of the City

Flaws: Love of Nature, Metal Intolerance

Traits: Aggressive, Polite

Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Natural Bond, Blindsight, Improved Initiative, ... Alright filling out the feat list without access to spellcasting is harder than I though. I'm gonna have to do some more digging...

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm going full artificer. I suspect an average New England day will be overcast enough to suffice. A level of horizon walker will fix it too.
Imo, a first level feat is less valuable than a level, but YMMV. Living in Brazil, I can't ever discard the tyrannical efforts of the sun.

I would be taking Leadership to make my younger brother immortal through Wedded to History, and he'd like Wild Monk.

So I'm thinking either give him Leadership too, or just pick up like twenty ranks in Profession (investor) and play the stock market with divinations from Factotum.

I figure I have just enough points with CHA 14 that I could make him sixth level, and he could proceed to pick up a billionaire friend, too.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Druid is a Tier 1 class though, so leveling will be rather slow.


Which reminds me. Are we just using standard D&D 3.5 Knowledge skills? Or are we adding new ones to account for modern science?
We're using 3.5 Knowledge skills, but if you want to instantly learn some IRL science you can take skill ranks. Doesn't d20 modern have skill names for that?
But there's nothing stopping you from just learning it the normal way, of course.


Talon, do you rule that Cunning Strike qualifies Factotum for Craven?Yes, of course. But keep in mind that Craven only applies when you activate Cunning Strike.

In any case, remember that you're in a world where guns exist. You can stack sneak attack damage all you want, but it'll still be hard to beat the guy who got his hands on a Handy Haversack and filled it with military gear.
Although making both stack does sound great.


I figure I have just enough points with CHA 14 that I could make him sixth level, and he could proceed to pick up a billionaire friend, too.
Note that Leadership is capped : at no point can a cohort have more levels than [your level -2], and they can't grow over level 17 pre-Epic.

I'll probably be posting the "things" timeline tomorrow.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Druid is a Tier 1 class though, so leveling will be rather slow.


We're using 3.5 Knowledge skills, but if you want to instantly learn some IRL science you can take skill ranks. Doesn't d20 modern have skill names for that?
But there's nothing stopping you from just learning it the normal way, of course.
Yes, of course. But keep in mind that Craven only applies when you activate Cunning Strike.

In any case, remember that you're in a world where guns exist. You can stack sneak attack damage all you want, but it'll still be hard to beat the guy who got his hands on a Handy Haversack and filled it with military gear.
Although making both stack does sound great.

Note that Leadership is capped : at no point can a cohort have more levels than [your level -2], and they can't grow over level 17 pre-Epic.

I'll probably be posting the "things" timeline tomorrow.
Thanks for the tip on Leadership.

My idea for the "things that are coming" is to go full social + knowledge. There are tanks and planes to fight open battles.

But you can't ever be sure, so Craven, bull**** as it is making each SA deal extra damage as a freaking Smite, is just what is needed when you are caught with your pants down.

The fact that SA is probably one of the best Cunning Brilliance uses is great, too.

I was indeed thinking "sneak attack with guns". I'm not sure if full auto firing or burst firing is a thing guns can just do under the system, but I could always pick up Ranger Combat Style with Cunning Brilliance (due the low DEX not really qualifying for stuff until I could get a belt of +6 or something, otherwise get Fighter Bonus Feats), and Cunning Surge a bunch of sneak attacks whenever I get in position to do so.

Probably going to do Factotum 19/Warblade or Swordsage 1 (undecided, anyone got tips?). Factotum gives me really versatile and respectably powerful bootleg casting, but for the big things I need seventh level spells, which means Factotum 18, so might as well get Cunning Brilliance at 19. So, only one level do play with.

Talon, do we get retroactive skill points from extra INT?

[RatElemental]

On the topic of Druid being tier 1 and all, aren't most tier 1 classes tier 1 because of spellcasting, a function that is stripped out in this challenge? Honestly we could make a whole project out of retiering the classes based on the constraints of this thread if we wanted.

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the topic of Druid being tier 1 and all, aren't most tier 1 classes tier 1 because of spellcasting, a function that is stripped out in this challenge? Honestly we could make a whole project out of retiering the classes based on the constraints of this thread if we wanted.
Yeah, but then again, the tier based leveling works just fine for the majority of classes people would pick when you can't really cast.

I think a Wild Ranger/MoMF could achieve essentially the same as the spell-less Druid but with better Wildshaping, while leveling faster and getting more skill points, HP and BAB. Just need that Practiced Spellcaster lookalike that bumps your Animal Companion level by four.

[Maat Mons]

Wait, can we have both Tireless and Troll-Blooded? Tireless says "You may have only one regional feat." And I thought Troll-Blooded was also a regional feat.

I'm not really up on the rules for regional feats, but if we are allowed more than one, do they both have to be from the same region?



You might be right to not rely on Sculpt Self for mitigating the penalty from Troll-Blooded. It's difficult to say when and how those benefits can be attained. How many years would I have to suffer through being fatigued in sunlight before our augmentation project bore fruit?

But if doubling up on regional feats isn't kosher, and I'm not going to rely on Sculpt Self, that doesn't leave a lot of options. I could have actual robot legs installed, or I could spend a level dealing with this.

I really don't want robot legs. Robot legs are not attractive... except to a select few... who aren't really my target demographic.

I could spare a level from Factotum, if I have to. I need at least 18 levels to get access to 7th-level spells. But I can definitely live without Cunning Brilliance if I have to. I was having trouble finding non-combat applications for it anyway.

One level of *shudder* Divine Mind could give me an aura that suppresses the effects of fatigue. But that's only when I have psionic focused. And I lose psionic when I lose consciousness. So sleeping would make me tired?

One level of Horizon Walker would work too. But I'd need to take the Endurance feat.



While I'm on the subject of feats, is Font of Inspiration important for a Factotum that aims to never get into combat? On the one hand, in most non-combat situations, it seems like taking a few minutes to regain my inspiration points is no big deal. On the other hand, I might at some point wind up in combat despite my best efforts.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Wait, can we have both Tireless and Troll-Blooded? Tireless says "You may have only one regional feat." And I thought Troll-Blooded was also a regional feat.

I'm not really up on the rules for regional feats, but if we are allowed more than one, do they both have to be from the same region?



You might be right to not rely on Sculpt Self for mitigating the penalty from Troll-Blooded. It's difficult to say when and how those benefits can be attained. How many years would I have to suffer through being fatigued in sunlight before our augmentation project bore fruit?

But if doubling up on regional feats isn't kosher, and I'm not going to rely on Sculpt Self, that doesn't leave a lot of options. I could have actual robot legs installed, or I could spend a level dealing with this.

I really don't want robot legs. Robot legs are not attractive... except to a select few... who aren't really my target demographic.

I could spare a level from Factotum, if I have to. I need at least 18 levels to get access to 7th-level spells. But I can definitely live without Cunning Brilliance if I have to. I was having trouble finding non-combat applications for it anyway.

One level of *shudder* Divine Mind could give me an aura that suppresses the effects of fatigue. But that's only when I have psionic focused. And I lose psionic when I lose consciousness. So sleeping would make me tired?

One level of Horizon Walker would work too. But I'd need to take the Endurance feat.



While I'm on the subject of feats, is Font of Inspiration important for a Factotum that aims to never get into combat? On the one hand, in most non-combat situations, it seems like taking a few minutes to regain my inspiration points is no big deal. On the other hand, I might at some point wind up in combat despite my best efforts.
The Dragon Mag where Troll Blooded makes it clear having more than one is not a problem, even giving the rules for making it so (every two ranks of Knowledge (Local) lets you take an extra feat).

However, technically, Troll Blooded doesn't actually have the Regional tag which Tireless has.

Given that there are two ways you could make it work (Knowledge ranks, and Troll-Blooded not being a Regional feat as far as PGtF understands it), I think it'd be fine.

I don't think robot legs would help, it seems to be that having troll blood in your veins just makes you lethargic in sunlight, which is represented by being fatigued.

For FoI, I was worried about fitting four of those in the build, but in the end, I believe I will go with:
1- Wedded to History, Toughness, Tireless, Troll-Blooded
3- Craft Wondrous Item
6- Imperious Command
9- Leadership
12- FoI
15- FoI
18- FoI

CWI + Factotum versatility means there's a ****load of itens I can cover. Imoerious Command and Never Outnumbered for when **** hits the fan, and Leadership to give my lil brother immortality and Wild Monk/MoMF levels, and maybe get a billionaire cohort from him if a Cohort is allowed Leadership.

One of the best uses for Cunning Brilliance would be to get Rogue Special Ability (where you only arguably get four at once) or Fighter Bonus Feats (where it seems you definitely get the bunch, given its a single class feature). You could pick up more FoI through Rogue Special Ability (if it gives more than one).

But just the Fighter Feats should allow some great stuff for when **** hits the fan.

I really like dipping Swordsage at 17th (to get it a tad earlier than the final level up, as the difference is immaterial to getting it at 20th) is that one could pick up that humble first level stance that gives Fire Immunity if you have 19+ ranks in Tumble. For a Troll-Blooded person, this is significantly better than "just" making you fully immune to the most common elemental damage type, of which there's plenty even in the mundane world.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Probably going to do Factotum 19/Warblade or Swordsage 1 (undecided, anyone got tips?). Factotum gives me really versatile and respectably powerful bootleg casting, but for the big things I need seventh level spells, which means Factotum 18, so might as well get Cunning Brilliance at 19. So, only one level do play with.

Talon, do we get retroactive skill points from extra INT?
I suggest Swordsage, it's got double the maneuvers known and has more skill points.
And no you don't get retroactive skill points, AFAIK retroactive skill points from extra Int is just a very common houserule in 3.5.


While I'm on the subject of feats, is Font of Inspiration important for a Factotum that aims to never get into combat? On the one hand, in most non-combat situations, it seems like taking a few minutes to regain my inspiration points is no big deal. On the other hand, I might at some point wind up in combat despite my best efforts.
Factotums use Inspiration out of combat too, you know. It's their best skill booster, and it's necessary for spells or healing. And out of combat an "encounter" can be a whole long skill challenge, so having a pile of Inspiration seems good.
And of course extra standard actions are always useful, even outside of combat itself. The sheer convenience of superspeed in everyday life is insane.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Outside of combat, there's only the 1/day (per) skill boost that costs you Inspiration, and maybe very rarely the extra actions.

Shocking as it may be, taking no FoIs for, say, more crafting feats could be perfectly fine for someone with no interest in combat at all, and a high level in Factotum.

[Menzath]

Alright, I think I am prepared for what is to come.
Warlock 12/Marshal 1/mindbender 7
Feat human, 2flaws(shaky, vulnerable)
1st- fey heritage, fey skin, fey power, corpse crafter
3rd craft wonderous item
6th craft magic arms and armour
9th leadership
12th craft construct
15th close cohort
18th mindsight
Stat array will be str 10 Dex 8 con 13(+1) int 12 Wis 14 Cha 15(+4)
Invocations- see the uneseen, beguiling influence, entropic warding, charm, the dead walk, fell flight, chilling tentacles, wall of perilous fire, devour magic, casters lament

And as for the cohort
sorcerer(battle, spell shield, stalwart ACF's)4/incarnate 4/elemental Scion of zilargo 10/incarnate 1
Feat human, 2flaws(shaky, vulnerable)
Feats
1st draconic heritage(black), draconic knowledge(DrM), draconic senses, draconic resistance
3rd practiced caster
6 elemental grafter
9 dragon breath
12 draconic aura(vigor)
15 open lesser chakra(shoulders
18 open greater chakra(waist)
Stat array will be str 8 Dex 12 con 15(+5) int 14 Wis 13 Cha 10

So the cohorts build hinges on making an elemental graft for himself, and then having the vitality belt soulmeld bound to his wait to as a standard action create elder elementals from his grafts at will, to bad their duration is only con mod+#elemental grafts but also having a few other soulmelds unlocked can aid in utility significantly.

As for me just some minion-mancing undead/mind control, and some good bluff/diplomacy checks. And I'd likely be able to nab another special person or two to assist me. hopefully not meat shield types, we have undead for that. Oh and a little crafting on the side at the end.

Edit:changed a few feats, and rebuilt cohort.
Edit2: changed my feats around since I need to help my cohort craft elemental grafts to qualify for elemental scion, which I can't do till lvl12.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Alright, I think I am prepared for what is to come.
Warlock 12/Marshal 1/mindbender 7
Feat human, 2flaws(shaky, vulnerable)
1st- fey heritage, fey skin, fey power, corpse crafter
3rd leadership
6th Close cohort
9th fey legacy
12th fey presence
15th craft wonderous item
18th forge rings
Stat array will be str 10 Dex 8 con 13(+1) int 12 Wis 14 Cha 15(+4)
Invocations- see the uneseen, beguiling influence, entropic warding, charm, the dead walk, fell flight, chilling tentacles, wall of perilous fire, devour magic, casters lament

And as for the cohort
Cloistered cleric3/sorcerer(battle, spell shield, stalwart ACF's)1/geomancer3/mystic theurge4/Divine agent8.
Feat human, 2flaws(shaky, vulnerable)
Feats
1st dragon touched, draconic heritage(black), draconic knowledge(DrM), draconic senses
3rd southern magician
6 dragon breath
9 draconic toughness
12 draconic aura(vigor)
15+18 supernatural transformation(Divine agents first two granted godly gifts)
Stat array will be str 10 Dex 8 con 13(+1) int 12 Wis 15(+4) Cha 14

Thankfully the wording on geomancer and mystic theurge are worded terribly. The only reason I even needed a sorc dip was geomancers spell versatility did specify parameters from classes.
I felt that southern magician just wasn't enough to single class qualify for mystic theurge, at least geomancer is good for something.
And Divine agent lets my buddy ask 20 questions to a deity? Or something every week with some other nice perks. But since deities are up in the air, I'm guessing domain choices are as well, the if I could choose it'd be nerull with envy, pestilence, bonus knowledge and trickery domains.

As for me, pretty plain in comparison, just some minion-mancing undead/mind control, and some good bluff/diplomacy checks, making undead works well with the cohort(he'll be rebuking) so we can double up on undead minions. And I'd likely be able to nab another special person or two to assist me. hopefully not meat shield types, we have undead for that. Oh and a little crafting on the side at the end.
This build is at times very clever and at times nonfunctional.
- Taking Mindbender was actually a very clever way to get good social skills, some invocation progression, and quality mind-control abilities. Dominate (even though duration is only 24 hours unless you go all ten levels), permanent Charm, suggestion and social skill bonuses? Count me in!
- Marshal works very well here, especially if you take it at first level (for skills). You could add in Able Learner and turn your build into a full-on Diplomancer, especially if you dipped Binder for Naberius! Strong diplomatic skills synergise very well with mind control!
- Taking twelve levels of Warlock makes you a crafter, but you can take crafting feats before that if needed (you just won't be able to use them as effectively). A shame that this isn't compatible with all 10 levels of Mindbender, but it's a good trade in the long-term.

Some mistakes:
-Leadership requires level 6.
-Your cohort's build is nonfunctional because it can't qualify for those PrCs. The Divine Agent PrC was an excellent find though! It's just impossible to qualify for these PrCs while spellcasting is impossible, AFAIK. Or did I miss something?

Some questions:
-Why not take the Mindsight feat?

[Menzath]

Some mistakes:
-Leadership requires level 6.
-Your cohort's build is nonfunctional because it can't qualify for those PrCs. The Divine Agent PrC was an excellent find though! It's just impossible to qualify for these PrCs while spellcasting is impossible, AFAIK. Or did I miss something?

Some questions:
-Why not take the Mindsight feat?

Your right, I was looking through way to many books way to late at night and got a few things confused. And as for spellcasting I had asked a clarification question(on maybe page 3?) But it was probably missed when a ton of people posted up. I'll edit the build post in a little bit to get it all koscher.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Sorry Menzath. Here's the reply to your earlier questions:

So, after more deliberation and reading others posts and re-reading the main post I think I'll change my build again. But before I do, a few questions.

So caster levels can qualify for having caster level, and spellcaster requirements, but not for actually casting any specific spells, do I have that right?
How would that function with reserve feats? Can I still put spells into spell slots to power them?

Also without foreknowledge of how the specifics of crafting magic items might work, and the new influx of people buying up rare materials, this might make crafting initially a crapshoot.

I'd rather not leave so many things up to uncertainties.
Casters can qualify for having caster levels, but they can't actually cast spells. This means that "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" is impossible. However, Warlocks and Shadowcasters can get into some arcane casting PrCs due to their own PrC qualification rules.
Reserve feats work just fine. It says "available to cast", and seeing as you can't actually cast them they'll always be available. And using a reserve feat doesn't count as casting a spell, so that's fine.

Crafting will indeed be difficult. Materials will be very expensive, securing a supply may be difficult, and they may be watched. However in the long term crafting is a surefire path to power. There's no GM artificially controlling your WBL here, just material necessities which you can try to get around with time, influence and/or luck.


Can I become a Soulknife? Maybe Pathfinder's Soulknife, which is not a ****ty class? If it is possible, which tier would it be? 4? Maybe even 3?

Edit: I just noticed I would be a terrible (PF) Soulknife. With my outstanding 8 Wisdom, I would never be able to get Psionic Meditation, and thus, recovering my psionic focus would be a nightmare.
No Pathfinder, sorry. Soulknife is fine if you want it, although you won't be able to use the power you get with Wild Talent (no psionics). Your Mind Blade works fine though.

[Menzath]

Alright edited my build post, should be good now 👌

[RatElemental]

Yeah, but then again, the tier based leveling works just fine for the majority of classes people would pick when you can't really cast.

Maybe, but I think full spellcasting classes definitely should be shifted down a bit to compensate. Poor wizard basically has nothing but the familiar here.


I think a Wild Ranger/MoMF could achieve essentially the same as the spell-less Druid but with better Wildshaping, while leveling faster and getting more skill points, HP and BAB. Just need that Practiced Spellcaster lookalike that bumps your Animal Companion level by four.

Doesn't wildshape ranger only get small and medium forms? Also doesn't get thousand faces, timeless body, or any of the neat druid ACFs like voice of the city. Urban themed ranger acfs are pretty much just trading tracking for a different type of tracking and limiting their animal companion size.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Maybe, but I think full spellcasting classes definitely should be shifted down a bit to compensate. Poor wizard basically has nothing but the familiar here.



Doesn't wildshape ranger only get small and medium forms? Also doesn't get thousand faces, timeless body, or any of the neat druid ACFs like voice of the city. Urban themed ranger acfs are pretty much just trading tracking for a different type of tracking and limiting their animal companion size.
I don't think it's worth the hassle to retier the casters.

In any case, yeah fair point on the Druid's other stuff, but MoMF gets around the restrictions.

[Maat Mons]

In this setting, the Urban Druid variant from Dragon magazine could be interesting.

At 10th level, your Urban Companion can be a car or truck. Live out Knight Rider, Herbie the Love Bug, or Christine, depending on your preferences.

At 16th level, your Urban Companion can be an Abrams tank or a Black Hawk helicopter. (And it's explicitly created out of thin air, so you don't have to buy/steal one.)

At 20th level, you can Urban Shape into an Abrams tank or a Black Hawk helicopter. Name yourself Huey-Man, and hope Micheal Poe doesn't sue.

Edit: Wait, what was I thinking. Obviously, your Urban Companion is going to be a nuclear warhead.

[Quertus]

So, it's not quite the way¹ I was looking at doing it, but this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?606335-3-5-theoretical-optimization-The-Sacrificial-Horse&p=24350258) has some good tech for making insanely high skill checks.

¹ I has numerous plans, not just 1, but I had two kinda similar (but less efficient) plans for boosting skill checks. That thread works much better under a similar theory.

[Blue Wizard]

No expert? Alright, Aristocrat then. The only important thing about this build is my cohort Artificier anyway.

I could even take the Improved Cohort feat from Heroes of Battle to make him 5th level. Would that be good?

I almost don't want to take a world leader as my cohort. Mostly because world leaders are busy and I'll be having mine spend all of his time on building tasks. So can I pick one up as a follower instead?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Menzath, nice build. It'll take a few years to get going, but when it does it's definitely good at producing huge meatshields with good mobility. A combat-focused cohort is a change from the other things in this thread, and I can see it coming in useful.


No expert? Alright, Aristocrat then. The only important thing about this build is my cohort Artificier anyway.

I could even take the Improved Cohort feat from Heroes of Battle to make him 5th level. Would that be good?

I almost don't want to take a world leader as my cohort. Mostly because world leaders are busy and I'll be having mine spend all of his time on building tasks. So can I pick one up as a follower instead?
Improved Cohort requires Leadership to be taken, and AFAIK you can't take two feats at once at level 6.
You can't really pick your Followers, those arise more organically once you start doing stuff. Taking Leadership makes you a good leader, after all.


Edit: Wait, what was I thinking. Obviously, your Urban Companion is going to be a nuclear warhead.
LMAO.

[Elricaltovilla]

So here is my attempt to finalize my build:

Leveling progression: Ranger 5 > MoMF 2 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 10

ACFs: Wild Shape Ranger, Solitary Hunting (lose AC, gain Favored Enemy bonus to Attack Rolls)

Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

Ability Scores:
STR: 8
CON: 13 (+1 4th)
DEX: 12 (+1 12 & 16)
INT: 14
WIS: 15 (+1 8th)
CHA: 10 (+1 20th)


Feats:
F1- Wedded to History
F2- Sculpt Self
H- Well Read (Dragon 315, all knowledges as class skills)
1- Alertness
3- Endurance
6- Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
9- Frozen Wild Shape
12-
15-
18-

I know there was a ranger ACF that traded spellcasting for bonus feats, but I can't remember what it was. I am also unsure how to fill out the last of my feats.

Skill wise I'll focus on maxing out the key knowledge skills for my various forms (5 knowledges), Listen, Spot, Search, and then spend my last skill point alternating between Hide and Move Silently, and enough in linguistics to learn all the necessary languages I can think of. The goal is to stay under the radar as much as possible until I get my Wildshapes up and running, and mostly focus on scouting, spying and gathering information on the "bad stuff" whenever it appears, until I have strong enough combat forms to make a difference.

I think everyone here might want to remember that if it's us plus 1 in 1,000,000 other people that means there's only between 7 and 8 thousand people who are supposed to contribute to this. If this is a planet wide invasion, we are quite possibly screwed. Guerrilla tactics will probably be necessary.

[TotallyNotEvil]

As my brother pointed out, the "power of humanity" is not to be underestimated.

Dinosaurs are strong, but tanks are stronger.

On the other end of the scale, you can easily out damage a 50 cal rifle from Modern with an Insightful Strike, so being able to fight the inevitable personal battles is probably wise.

I think I'm happy with:

Year 1 - Factotum 3

STR 8
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 15
WIS 12
CHA 14
1st- Toughness, Troll Blooded, Tireless, Wedded to History,
Flaws: City Slicker, Innatentive
3rd- Craft Wondrous Item

The strategy here is simple: life improvements and study in preparation for what's coming. Skill points in Autohypnosis 6, Craft Achemy and Chemistry 1, Diplomacy 6, Knowledges Arcana 4, Business 1, Earth and Life Sciences 1, Physical Sciences 4, Planes 4, Psionics 1 and Tecnology 1, Perform Dance 1 and Keyboard 1, Profession (Investor) 2, Profession (Engineer) 2, Sense Motive 6, Spellcraft 6

Getting a feeling for how Crafting works and what I need for it, making Uni significantly easier with Physical Sciences + Cunning Knowledge and Autohypnosis.

It is a pity I cannot take Nymph's Kiss as well, dem skill points be valuable.

Lots of first level spells are very useful, too.

Year 2 - Factotum 6

4th- +1 INT
6th - Craft Magic Arms and Armor

Nothing much changes, keeping the highest skills high, distributing odd points into things such as Psycraft and assorted Knowledges, maybe the odd Crafting skill if I find myself in great need of custom stuff for CWI.

I hopefully already started making money with Investor.

Maybe travel to the US, take some shooting courses.

Year 3 - Factotum 9

8th- +1 CON
9th- Font of Inspiration

Pretty standard, I'm holding off on getting Leadership for a reason.

Year 4 - Factotum 12

12th - +1 INT and FoI

Year 5 - Factotum 15

15th - FoI

Year 6 - Factotum 16/Unnarmed Swordsage 1/Factotum +1

16th - +1 INT
18th - Leadership

Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Mind Over Body, Insightful Strike, Shadow Stride, Cloak of Shadows, Distracting Ember
Stance: Flame's Blessing

My brother becomes a Wild Monk 6/MoMF 10, takes Leadership at 15th.

My mother becomes my brother's cohort, probably Artificer as she always wanted to hand craft things. Probably level 12 or 13.

My aunt becomes my mother's cohort, likely Factotum like me, maybe level 9.

My aunt takes Leadership, picks a recluse billionaire/ultra rich person as her cohort. Preferably someone not too famous and with a low-key business, such as precision machine manufacturing or something.

All of them should have the same first level feats as I do, maybe with different flaws (noncombatant for mom and aunt, for example).

Year 7 - Factotum +2

And that's the plan- make the whole immediate family immortal by waiting a few years to take Leadership, as as far as I can see, nothing forbids your cohort from taking Leadership.

Maneuvers are the mandatory Mind over X to cover my weak saves, Insightful Strike because at that point I've got a ton of Concentration, the shadow ones for versatility- it's always good to have a Greater Insivibility and some sort of teleportation in your back pocket, and the one I'm least sure about is Distracting Ember.

My main damage dealing mode at that level would be Cunning Brilliance for Sneak Attack, but at the same time I could also trigger Fighter Bonus Feats and pick up Martial Study for it.

OTOH, it's highly useful if I want to pick up one of the AoE blasts like Firesnake or Dragon's Flame, or perhaps Leaping Flame to teleport right besides an assassin.

It should be implied that I pick up Comcentration and Tumble along the way, enough to fuel the maneuvers well.

Insightful Strike, for example, is going to be hitting for the same damage as a LAW rocket, or more.

Makes high level melee properly terrifying to think about.

Thoughts?

[Telonius]

Hmm. Thinking about this one quite a bit. As a "me-personally" thing, I'd probably go with Rogue1/WarlockX. Healer would be my go-to for what I absolutely want to be able to do with D&D-ish powers, but alignment ... not sure I'd qualify. Definitely Chaotic, not so sure about the Good part.

[EDIT] -misread the initial post saying that Dragon is allowed. Changing up first-level feats as a result.

1 Rogue - Able Learner (1st), Craven (Human), Inattentive (Flaw), Wedded to History (Survivor) (from Flaw)
2 Warlock 1 Darkness invocation
3 Warlock 2 Blend into Shadows feat, Beguiling Influence invocation

And on from there.

Abilities:

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 15

All right, here's the full build.

Switching up the abilities to Int 15/ Cha 14.
1 Rogue 1. Able Learner (1st), Craven (Human), Inattentive (Flaw), Wedded to History (Survivor) (from Flaw)
Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Diplomacy 4, Bluff 4, Sense Motive 4, Tumble 4, Balance 4, UMD 4, Know (Nobility) 2, Intimidate 2
2 Warlock 1. Darkness Invocation.
Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Tumble 5, Balance 5, UMD 5
3 Warlock 2: Blend Into Shadows feat, Beguiling Influence invocation.
Diplomacy 6, Bluff 6, UMD 6, Intimidate 4
4 Warlock 3: INT +1 (16)
Diplomacy 7, Bluff 7, UMD 7, Hide 5, Move Silently 5, Know (Nobility) 3
5 Warlock 4. Devil’s Sight invocation.
Diplomacy 8, Bluff 8, UMD 8, Hide 6, Sense Motive 5, Know (Nobility) 4
6 Warlock 5. Darkstalker feat
Diplomacy 9, Bluff 9, UMD 9, Intimidate 5, Search 1, Disable Device 1
7 Warlock 6 Charm invocation
Diplomacy 10, Bluff 10, UMD 10, Know (Nobility) 5, Disguise 2
8 Mindbender 1: Dex +1
Disguise 5(3), Assume Quirk skill trick, UMD 11
9 Psion (Egoist) 1 – Change Shape ACF, Mindsight feat
Hide 7, Move Silently 7, UMD 12, Autohypnosis 1, Disguise 6
10 Warlock 7. Fell Flight invocation
Hide 9, Move Silently 9, UMD 13, Disguise 7
11 Warlock 8
Hide 11, Move Silently 11, UMD 14, Disguise 8
12 Warlock 9 – Extra Invocation (Eldritch Spear). Dex +1. Voracious Dispelling invocation
Hide 13, Move Silently 13, UMD 15, Disguise 9
13 Warlock 10 Devil’s Whispers invocation
Hide 15, Move Silently 15, UMD 16, Disguise 10
14 Warlock 11
Hide 17, Move Silently 17, UMD 17, Disguise 11
15 Warlock 12 – Extra Invocation (Flee the Scene), Chilling Tentacles Invocation
Hide 18, Move Silently 18, UMD 18, Disguise 12, Bluff 11, Diplomacy 11
16 Warlock 13. Dex +1
Hide 19, Move Silently 19, UMD 19, Disguise 13, Bluff 12, Diplomacy 12
17 Warlock 14. Vitriolic Blast invocation.
Hide 20, Move Silently 20, UMD 20, Disguise 14, Bluff 13, Diplomacy 13
18 Warlock 15 – Extra Invocation (Disembodied Hand), Path of Shadow Invocation
Hide 21, Move Silently 21, UMD 21, Disguise 15, Bluff 14, Diplomacy 14
19 Warlock 16
Hide 22, Move Silently 22, UMD 22, Disguise 16, Bluff 15, Diplomacy 15
20 Warlock 17. Dex +1. Word of Changing invocation.
Hide 23, Move Silently 23, UMD 23, Disguise 17, Bluff 16, Diplomacy 16


I normally don't like using Flaws, but Inattentive models me decently well (poor eyesight and hearing loss). Maxing out UMD in the hopes that there will be some magical items in the future. Egoist Psion ACF trick to gain minor change shape (as per Changelings), for fun and profit. Wedded to History (Survivor) lets me (somewhat) ignore my bad saves and key everything off of Will (with some limitations). Potential immortality is also nice. High bluff and disguise check, plus the Assume Quirk skill trick, can let me be a pretty good spy and infiltrator if necessary. Telepathy (from Mindbender) helps as well. Darkstalker/Mindsight let me know where everybody is, without them knowing where I am. Charm at will (later, Devil's Whispers) lets me get pretty much what I want, when I want it. A few well-placed words could get a massive amount of money and effort among the mundanes aimed at curing a chronic illness that affects my wife and daughter - it's not Remove Disease, but it's probably the best I'll get in this scenario. For combat, the Darkness/Blend Into Shadow feat/Devli's Sight lets me (more or less) hide in plain sight at all times. Lots of d6's with extra Craven damage whenever. Vitriolic blast to ignore any SR. And Chilling Tentacles for a little battlefield control.

I can shapeshift, I can read minds, I can dispel, I can travel through the shadow plane at 50 miles an hour, I can turn someone into a newt, I can fly, I can kill a yak from 250 feet away with mind bullets ... er, Eldritch Blasts.

Really not sure how Imbue Item would work. If crafting still works at all, I'd probably switch out Flee the Scene or Disembodied Hand for Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armor. (Assuming Wands, scrolls, potions, etc won't work at all). But if we're going to be fighting "bad things" that have DR/magic, being able to punch through that would be important.

[Menzath]

Happened to read more on something and had to switch feats around cause my cohort couldn't qualify for elemental scion without me being higher level. But should work now, also I can make constructs.

[ben-zayb]

I love the cool reveal, but, well, I'll just leave this here link to the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

EDIT: I feel like I did some interdimensional time traveling stunt, for I have seen an erased future.

[Telonius]

I love the cool reveal, but, well, I'll just leave this here link to the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

EDIT: I feel like I did some interdimensional time traveling stunt, for I have seen an erased future.

Must be part of that "dream of bad things coming" business - or maybe the first casualty of 3.5 being forgotten. Wonder if all the other PCs saw it?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Reposted, now with Mod confirmation that it isn't breaking any rules. Thanks Ventruenox!
Disclaimer : we're using standard D&D PHB cosmology for this, because this is a D&D 3.5 forum and discussing IRL religion isn't allowed. Main twist is that all the Gods are dead.


What is to come :

2020:

- D&D and its derivatives vanish from this world. There is no trace of it ever having existed, except in the minds of PCs who'd played it before getting the Dream.

- Weak Fey begin returning to certain places in this world. As years go on, more passages to the Feywild can be found, and more powerful Fey will be able to pass. This isn't a problem, but may cause local issues depending on the character of Fey or Fey groups near each passage, and on the way people receive them. Fey are disorganized and hard to deal with without good Knowledge skills, but if you can negotiate properly they can be helpful. PCs and anything that gets their powers (directly or not) from a dream can't cast spells on any Plane, but anything else can cast spells as long as they're not on the Material or Etheral Plane.

- Geopolitical chaos as multiple world leaders are taken as cohorts and people react with shock to the existence of provable supernatural abilities (not everyone stays hidden, you see). There is a gold rush of sorts. Soon people realize that most PCs aren't very useful yet, but that they're growing in power. No world war three or anything, but a huge media frenzy.

- Some "supernatural" crimes or crises occur, but apart from the media Frenzy things are mostly fine for now. Normal police get extra training but can handle it.

- Some weird **** happens (people start cults, some religious groups respond very negatively to all this, etc) but this isn't really the end of the world or anything. There's opportunity and local crises, but that's it.


2021:

- Several Exalted characters start successfully spreading their movement. Nobody has yet managed to get Exalted feats on a non-PC, but they're trying!

- Several big TNCs hire PCs for various superhuman tasks (Teleportation, Divination, Lucid Dreaming, etc) and this causes some major legal battles. What's legal, and what's not? What's unfair economic competition, and what needs to be allowed but regulated? Laws are debated, media is still crazy (especially as more and more mind-control powers are coming online), and some places are now bad places to be a PC.

- Crafting supplies are now sometimes easier to get (proper sellers are on the market, etc) but are often regulated if they can be used to create restricted substances. Magic item crafting is not illegal, but you will be noticed by various government agencies.

- The first few serious supernatural crimes are discovered, causing backlash. In some areas, "superheroes" appear for a time. In others, various groups (religious or not) react very negatively to the heresy of people wielding supernatural powers and/or to the threat of mind-control or invisible crimes.

- PCs start proving themselves blatantly superhuman not just in magic, but also in normal skills.

- Politics and global economies are still weird as ****, but it isn't publicly known what the hell is going on.

- Several wars break out between regional powers (one in the Middle East, unofficial skirmishes in the Kashmir region, a civil war in Mongolia, and several wars against especially savage Fey in the Amazon), but it's highly likely that no nukes are launched.

- PCs start to vanish, especially the ones that were known but weren't exactly world-famous or anything. Is it some government black site kidnapping them? Something more supernatural? Who knows? It's happening in small numbers all across the world.


2022:

- First big group of Divination-users goes public. Calling themselves the Dreamers, they abuse Lucid Dreaming, Eberron "conscious dreaming" feats, and Oneiromancy to create matter from nothing and get lots of Commune uses. They say a lot of shocking stuff (about all Gods being dead (and the cosmology sounds a lot like standard D&D cosmology), about Evil PCs and how to stop them, about threats that are coming...) and although they certainly aren't universally believed they do cooperate with various governments and international organizations to keep a handle on PCs or Fey interfering with politics and the global economy. They have skillmonkeys, healers... They seem to be on top of the world, and invite all PCs who can pass their vetting to join. They also aim to fix climate change, and allow for some crazy space projects to get off the ground. Is this the Justice League, but in real life?

- Magic brings great success to space exploration. Several extraplanar expeditions are launched, mostly in the Feywild or Shadow Plane.

- Several major technological leaps are made. Although mass-production is still a long way away, new industrial revolution seems to be beginning.

- Several Wightpocalypses start (publicly, they all started for "unknown reasons". Make of that what you will). Thankfully it seems like Plants can't be affected, and that things must have more than 1HD to turn into Wights. Cities are devastated in America and Brazil, but in Africa it reaches true apocalypse levels because nobody rings the alarm fast enough. The EU finally agrees on a joint military action in Africa (starting with ex-French colonies, where French troops were already stationed in large numbers), and the USA intervenes to help put down the South American one. Most Wights prefer to use their slam attacks in battle, but they still have their Int score and knowledge and will use human weapons or technology is they seem likely to all die. Nevertheless, this seems destined to be a long and bloody battle.


2023:

- Governments in Europe begin acting less strangely, enacting measures against mind-control, Leadership shenanigans, and even some forms of Teleportation/Divination. They also crack down on criminal or ethically dubious uses of PC abilities, and they do a very good job of it. However anyone who really investigates will discover that a Devil-cult is in fact slowly taking power. Nothing too Evil is happening in the public eye yet, and the trains run on time, but can things end well when Devils and their cultists are taking over your government, media and big corporations? Surely the progress and security they bring is a trap!

This is a slow, multi-year effort, but by now they've already become significantly powerful and influential. They're competent, well positioned, and have redundancies and compartmentalization - but there's no actual gate to Hell. They use Evil summoning rituals to access more Devils and magic items, but otherwise mostly rely on a few Mountebanks and "normal" security and resources. They're also looking for what's stopping spellcasting from working, although unlike human PCs they can cast spells if they aren't on this Plane or on the Etheral Plane.

- The Dreamers splinter over internal disagreements. Several die. Devil involvement is likely.

- There's a major ethical and legal battle over experimenting on Trolls captured in the Feywild by a Canadian special ops team. Think of what it could teach our medical researchers!

- Fey seem to really hate being called Gods or servants of Gods. However, despite a very rocky start in 2020, several groups are establishing peaceful relations with animist faiths around the world. Trade and cooperation seem possible.


2024:

- Most of the Dreamers die. Now everyone knows that there's an Illithid Savant on the loose, and that it's eaten several high-level PCs including its Binder cohort for Mind blank. It also targets world leaders it doesn't like, and seems quite insane. It's enemy Public n°1, and although it does attempt to reveal the Devil-infiltration of European nations its poor reputation and obvious insanity doesn't help the cause very much.

- Magitech made by PCs was impressive, but now some of the huge R&D investments governments made are beginning to pay off. It's still just expensive and flawed prototypes, but "Antimagic Fields in all government buildings within 10 years" doesn't seem so impossible. Some agencies or businesses are already trying to use these prototypes, despite their current limitations.

- Global financial crisis. Devil involvement suspected.


2025:

- What seem to be powerful Celestials arrive, promising better things and saying that soon actual Gods will be able to touch this world. They were sent as Heralds, and want to make the world a better place! In fact they're Constructs working for a Mercane who's just arrived on the Plane and who wants to extract as much wealth as possible from it. This is a great opportunity to get powerful magic items, but the prices are high and the Mercane wants control above all. Don't be in its debt...

- Sahaguin and Triton sighted in the world's oceans, apparently at war. Diviners say there are several Gates opening in what was once Atlantis (which also appeared deep beneath the Atlantic), some to the Plane of Water and others to Demiplanes connected to the Far Realm. Mind Flayers and Marid also sighted in small numbers, seemingly disunited.

- Trade war over some of the more exotic crafting components.

- Fist human colonies on the moon, aided by PCs.

- Major war between Fey courts in the starts. Many Fey blame humans for starting it, but don't know who it was. A company led by a PC invades part of the Feywild in an area corresponding to Uruguay, and manages to keep it. Others start eyeing the Plane with interest, until the humans who live there too long start changing in various ways.


2026:

- Major land war in North America. Real causes unknown, supernatural involvement suspected but unproven.

- Strategic use of Control Winds to stop hurricanes is finally successful. Of course there's an immediate legal and PR battle between businesses selling the service and poor Third-World government who wish to requisition it in times of crisis.

- Tensions in the South China Sea over a tidal wave some say was deliberately caused by magic. Things get militarily tense on the region again, despite the efforts of superhumanly good Diplomats hired by various governments in previous years.

- Jihadists successfully summon a "Celestial" and use it to slaughter enemy soldiers in the Middle East (unless the Mercane is dead and can't be Rezzed), causing even more tensions and making people question the nature of these so-called "angels".

- Enormous wildfires in Siberia somehow summon Fire and Air Elementals in huge numbers. They spread in all directions, including across the oceans.


2027:

- All divinations suggest a high chance of a nuclear war this year unless someone acts. The Devils will protect their holdings if they haven't been too weakened, but everyone else is mostly ****ed unless someone stops this from happening.

- Efreet arrive in heavily magically armed flying ships. Their spellcasting doesn't work here and they want to know why, but they're also open to (fair-ish) trading. The're a well-organised extraplanar Empire which practices slavery, has a ****ton of powerful magic items that still work, and has strong SLAs and bound monsters. China drives off any who attempt to enter its territory after an incident at the border, and Marid and Mind Flayers attack them on sight. Nevertheless, Efreet are quite capable of superhumanly skilled Diplomacy, and start to establish relations with various countries in southern Asia.

- Someone is monetizing a ritual that can turn people into Hengeyokai, and offers to sell it to whoever can make the charges of human experimentation go away.

- Several holy sites of various religions all around the world are revealed to be passages to the Astral Plane. This often happens when predators come boiling out, leading to the destruction of said sites. This starts another conflict in the Middle East. The theological and cosmological meaning of this phenomenon is hotly debated, and more extraplanar expeditions are launched. The Dreamers claimed that the world followed a strange cosmology where all the Gods were dead (D&D variant cosmology), but is this true?


2028:

- Another refugee crisis on Europe's borders. If the Devils are still in power, this will turn ugly and people disappear and new Devils are summoned using sacrifice rituals.

- Efreet colonize Australia and multiple Pacific islands. War is declared against some neighbors, but they offer an alliance on very favorable terms to others, including China.

- "Mirror of Opposition" added to international accords regarding WMDs after several bloody incidents.

- Mind Flayer revealed to all be united beneath an Elder Brain, which has arrived somewhere on the Plane. The Elder Brain's psionics don't work, but it is nevertheless attempting to take over the world. Global shipping takes a huge hit as the open war beneath the seas intensifies, with monsters brought in from off-Plane.

- Attempts to release supernatural plagues in countries which are prospering cause panic. Who knows if the newt one will succeed? Who is doing this?


2029:

- Marid subvert some Sahaguin with promises of freedom and better lives. Without all their psionics, even the united Mind Flayers and Aboleths cannot entirely restore order. Sahaguin civil war and rebellion against the Mind Flayers begins.

- If the Devils haven't been stopped, they turn the EU into a set of increasingly fanatical police states, but they still don't go public with their true nature just yet. If they have been stopped, they return once again and will need to be stopped again.

- One of the weaker factions of the American civil war somehow gets its hands on an incredibly rare Mirror Mephit, surges in power once again.

- Enormous earthquakes in South America after an Earth-Blooded cult fails to open a Gate to the Elemental Plane of Earth. Major tectonic boundaries all around the world experience violent earthquakes too, but at least these ones sort of follow the laws of physics and happen in places where they were expected.

- Congratulations on the idiot who made a Template-stacking monstrosity that's immune to everything, it's going wild across the Himalayas and just caused Yetis to go extinct again. There's an absolutely massive reward on anyone who can capture it alive. Similarly, anyone who can capture its unknown creator and make them teach others those rituals would be well rewarded.


2030:

- A second set of dreams goes out to new people who aren't already PCs.

- Powerful Celestials arrive from a portal to a ruined Good Divine Plane, deep beneath the south pole. According to them the dreams are being hijacked: instead of slowly spreading magic back into the world for years and only then allowing other Planes to touch this one, something has awoken deep within the Oort Cloud and is interfering with the process (this is why spellcasting doesn't work - the extra energy is opening new Planar rifts). Dreams are being given to random people instead of only Exalted people. They say that closing all the rifts faster than they can open will allow the Celestials to take the excess power somehow and use it to connect more Good Outer Planes to this one, and then revive a God. Despite all the Gods being dead the multiverse still isn't a utopia, so what if they meddled in fundamental cosmic events and returned a single Good divinity to life? Without anything to oppose it, it will surely being forth utopia!

- Devils claim that this is a lie, that these Celestials are mere puppets like the Mercane's "Celestials" were, and that they must all be killed.

- Meanwhile the thing in the Oort Cloud promises great power to anyone who will free it from the bonds the Gods put upon it in ages long past. It contacts anyone who gets beyond Jupiter on the Material Plane in their dreams and makes sweet promises...

- The Thing is basically the King in Yellow crossed with Milton's Lucifer. If it is found, is lies deep within a Mind Blanked asteroid covered in runes. Anyone with enough Spellcraft and Knowledge skills can adjust these runes to bind it tighter or free it, but its spawn live upon this Asteroid and will try to kill anyone who attempts to bind it. Binding it tighter will close all extraplanar breaches and send it back to its eons-long sleep, making extraplanar travel and conquest far harder and stopping the spread of the supernatural. Freeing it will allow spellcasting, but will also release a thing which wishes to Rule the Planes as a God and has a decent chance of successfully defeating all major Outsider empires, destroying the very concept of Alignments, and reshaping the cosmos in its image. Blue and Orange morality applies when trying to understand its motivations and the way it treats others.

- If there are other Gods, they aren't acting openly.



Yes, this is an absolute mess. Handle it!

I made my own build a while ago. It's not the strongest build in this thread, but it's not terrible either. Here it is for posterity as the thread wraps up:

- I pick Expert, and max Cha. The idea here is to level as fast as possible, and to exploit Leadership to make a Tier 3 class level faster like some people on GiTP are thinking of doing.
- So I take Expert (solid skills including Lucid Dreaming + Dreamtouched feats and Oneiromancy), max Cha, and take Leadership, Great Diplomat, and Dragon Cohort. This gives me 3 Cohorts.
- I'll make one a Binder 12/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5, and make sure another one can apply negative levels : it'll be a Factotum using Obtain Familiar and Dragon Familiar (Shadow Dragon) or Improved Familiar (Deathfang Snake). Then use negative levels + Restoration from the Binders' summoned creatures to switch into a better class than Expert. It can be done in two days, failing saves deliberately (or Cursed with low saves). I'll probably make myself into a Binder, for the healing abilities, the wide repertoire of low-level Cleric and Wizard spells as SLAs through summoned monsters, and strong Diplomacy vestige. And on top of that I'd still have 2 more Vestiges to play with for other abilities. Then I can retrain my Binder/KoSS cohort into something else, such as a Warlock 12 / Ruathar 3 / Mindbender 1 / Swordsage 1.
- Ideally I'd make my family cohorts, as I'm 100% sure I could depend on them and it feels a lot less like mind control that way. I'm not mind-controlling some stranger, just giving powers to someone who's already a reliable ally with a decent opinion of me.
- Presumably Dragon Cohort turns someone into a Dragon instead of just making one appear (following the same logic as Leadership instantly giving someone character levels) so I'll pick a Dragon type that can take human shape. A Steel Dragon seems like the best type of Dragon with Alternate Form, if only because its racial HD are low and so it can get more levels. A Wyrm of War Steel Dragon 4RHD / Jaunter 4 / Shadowdancer 2 / Telflammar Shadowlord 5 / Swordsage 2 is a sneaky build with amazing movement abilities and good skills.
- Then all cohorts can take Leadership, etc, in a nice little pyramid scheme granting Wedded to History to a bunch of people. It'll run out eventually, but it does the job.

This isn't an ideal build and I could go cheesier (get Cha to 25, take levels in the Half-Dragon racial progression and abuse the "Old Dragons can take Epic Feats" for Epic Leadership and go from there, or become a Werebear for Epic Leadership) but it's a powerful and flexible one that I'm satisfied with. Raw power and survivability and likely inferior to proper Animorph builds, but them's the breaks. I guess I should have thought of an Animorphs build ;)

[Maat Mons]

Okay, clearly we need to put our trust in the ineffable horror. So let's brainstorm people. How do we free the King in Yellow?

[Menzath]

Okay, clearly we need to put our trust in the ineffable horror. So let's brainstorm people. How do we free the King in Yellow?

Making a construct ship should be easy enough by year 5, all I need is to change my cohort and I into elementals so we don't have to worry about food and air, just maintaining temperature.
And if I or others who join can't spell craft high enough (doubtful but possible) I can dispel magic/break enchantment on touch.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

A crew that doesn't require food or atmosphere is convenient, but that's not all that's needed. You'll have to find a way to actually get to the Oort Cloud (which is rather far from Kansas), and then you'll have to find a specific un-Divinable asteroid in that huge expanse (the hard bit).
Thoughts on how to achieve that?
Actually Animorph builds can handle almost everything else, now that I think about it. Skill points, versatility and combat power make Animorphs able to survive, escape and help fight everything from Efreet to Mind Flayers in Atlantis. All they're missing is easy Divination to find threats, and I guess that that's why you keep allies around. But getting to space in a timely manner is a little beyond their base capabilities, AFAIK... Unless there's a form with absolutely crazy movement abilities or something?

Note : it's obviously possible to just ignore the Thing. That will keep things on track as they are now, with more and more portals opening and a new round of dreams every ten years. This situation may or may not be a good thing. Of course you'll probably want to put guards on the asteroid anyway, and make sure they can't be tempted into freeing it...
Oh, and there's no way Break Enchantment will do the job, obviously. This is another "weird ritual" situation. The thing is a prison for a powerful monster, it's obviously stupidly hard to destroy.

[Troacctid]

Skipping over the spoiler post. I see a lot of people going MoMF to transform themselves. I'm going to take a different tack: Shaper of Form. That'll let me transform myself and others and objects. Notably, like begets like allows me to create magic items out of sufficiently valuable nonmagical items. I'm sure that'll be useful for something. Also, I'll take Metamorphic Transfer to get some (Su) abilities. I'm not sure what shenanigans I can accomplish, but I assume they will be impressive.

Factotum 2/Binder 1/Warlock 2/Shaper of Form 10/Heir of Siberys 3/Human Paragon 2

Factotum provides the transmutation SLAs needed to qualify. Binder puts me in contact with spirits for the story prerequisite (and Naberius is pretty useful). Heir of Siberys gives mind blank (which I assume will be useful at high levels) and lets me take a feat to get continuous foresight. And I will take Leadership, of course.

[ben-zayb]

Once I hit level 15 (Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 with Assume Supernatural Ability) to get the Phasm form from wild shape, I'm set for life. As discussed, I'll just Alternate Form into a Protean, then use Alter Shape to become pretty much anything and survive dn near anywhere. Making the absurdly high knowledge check has already also been outlined

Any Extraordinary Ability or Supernatural Ability should be available to me, pretty much. There's too many to mention, but most of the useful ones I can think of right now are:

I got access to supernatural divination abilities by Weirds.
I can create any item weighing 15lbs or less, like a Luck Blade, via Shadow Gossamer* from Shaedlings.
I can use any magic item via Item Use from Lilitu.
I can Split* myself into exponentially increasing number of clones.
I have the different variants of Possession abilities from Ghost, to Guecubu, to Dybbuk, to Fiend of Possession, etc.
I have all abilities to gain more HD, feats, and skill points, such as via Cannibalize* from Dusk Giants.
I can get the Special Qualities extraordinary ability of Abominations to get a host of perks, including being able to choose epic feats.
I have different variants of Telepathy, including the Formian's 10000ft version for fellow Formians and Abomination's 1000ft version, both of which will be useful for Mindsight.
I have access to arbitrarily high stats via the broken Mark of Cania feat trick by assuming any devil form, maybe a Merregon to access the ridiculous their perks when having a bazillion clone.
I also have access to the ridiculous Supernatural abilities by Elder Evils.
I can make any of these permanent too by gaining an Illithid Savant's Acquire () ability.


Since I have bazillion clones, I could easily pass most of my stats (traits, qualities, HD, feats, skills, abilities) to everyone else by any different means: Possession, Symbiotic template ritual, Illithid Savant, etc.

Technically, I can easily become Pun-Pun, but where's the fun in that?

* these can technically be done way before the level 15 combo

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I'm not too keen on the cloud plan. I think I would just lay low for the first few years, then fortify Maine. Make a few elder eidolon giant lobsters and sharks to help keep the fish folk away from our coasts. Set up some tin golem factories to help gather materials. Make a few effigy moose and iron defenders to patrol the borders. I'd go full defence, not that we have much that anyone would want, but I'd try to make a haven for PCs and their families.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Once I hit level 15 (Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 with Assume Supernatural Ability) to get the Phasm form from wild shape, I'm set for life. As discussed, I'll just Alternate Form into a Protean, then use Alter Shape to become pretty much anything and survive dn near anywhere. Making the absurdly high knowledge check has already also been outlined

Any Extraordinary Ability or Supernatural Ability should be available to me, pretty much. There's too many to mention, but most of the useful ones I can think of right now are:

I got access to supernatural divination abilities by Weirds.
I can create any item weighing 15lbs or less, like a Luck Blade, via Shadow Gossamer* from Shaedlings.
I can use any magic item via Item Use from Lilitu.
I can Split* myself into exponentially increasing number of clones.
I have the different variants of Possession abilities from Ghost, to Guecubu, to Dybbuk, to Fiend of Possession, etc.
I have all abilities to gain more HD, feats, and skill points, such as via Cannibalize* from Dusk Giants.
I can get the Special Qualities extraordinary ability of Abominations to get a host of perks, including being able to choose epic feats.
I have different variants of Telepathy, including the Formian's 10000ft version for fellow Formians and Abomination's 1000ft version, both of which will be useful for Mindsight.
I have access to arbitrarily high stats via the broken Mark of Cania feat trick by assuming any devil form, maybe a Merregon to access the ridiculous their perks when having a bazillion clone.
I also have access to the ridiculous Supernatural abilities by Elder Evils.
I can make any of these permanent too by gaining an Illithid Savant's Acquire () ability.


I clearly underestimated what a MoMF can do, and I'd completely forgotten about turning into an Elemental Weird. Why, that's even better than summoning one! However I was unaware that you could Wild Shape into specific people with specific classes such as Illithid Savant - isn't it limited to species?
Using Dusk Giant is clever though, and much safer than using Barghest. I presume that the idea is that you don't lose the extra HD even after returning to your base form? A quick google brought up gitp threads where people argued the opposite, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on that. Still, it's clever, and it should allow to you get enough HD to take Elder Evil forms (several are above 20HD). This is definitely powerful, assuming that the infinite-HD growth of Dusk Giant works as advertised. And even if it doesn't, 20HD of Wild Shape is famously powerful both in combat and out of it.


Skipping over the spoiler post. I see a lot of people going MoMF to transform themselves. I'm going to take a different tack: Shaper of Form. That'll let me transform myself and others and objects. Notably, like begets like allows me to create magic items out of sufficiently valuable nonmagical items. I'm sure that'll be useful for something. Also, I'll take Metamorphic Transfer to get some (Su) abilities. I'm not sure what shenanigans I can accomplish, but I assume they will be impressive.

Factotum 2/Binder 1/Warlock 2/Shaper of Form 10/Heir of Siberys 3/Human Paragon 2

Factotum provides the transmutation SLAs needed to qualify. Binder puts me in contact with spirits for the story prerequisite (and Naberius is pretty useful). Heir of Siberys gives mind blank (which I assume will be useful at high levels) and lets me take a feat to get continuous foresight. And I will take Leadership, of course.
This is very clever, but AFAIK Shaper of Form doesn't let you create magic items. It lets you reshape existing magic items, but doesn't seem to change their enchantments at all (it explicitly says "The magic qualities do not change"). It also wears off in 24 hours. Unless you're using the D&D Wiki version of the PrC, but that one seems to be homebrew.
However it does let you change race (but not type), use Dysjunction once a day, and cast Polymorph twice per day, which is reasonably powerful.
And are you applying Human Paragon to Heir of Siberys, or to another class? Which Dragonmark are you taking?

[Menzath]

Once I hit level 15 (Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 with Assume Supernatural Ability) to get the Phasm form from wild shape, I'm set for life. As discussed, I'll just Alternate Form into a Protean, then use Alter Shape to become pretty much anything and survive dn near anywhere.

So, as far as I can tell, this doesn't work.
The alternate form ability can get you the proteans destabilize (ex) cause it's a special attack, but not its alter shape (ex) because it's a special quality. MoMF also doesn't give you it, since you didn't directly wildshape into that form.

[Quertus]

Sounds like a cool campaign journal. Did you run this previously with your group?

Winding down? This is when things get interesting! Although, sadly, my build (such as it is) isn't very well designed to interact meaningfully with these conditions / scenarios. But I'll comment on changes from the peanut gallery, though.

For instance, day 1. WotC could get by on the strength of CCGs - Pokemon, MtG, etc. But what about the Playground? Would it just have other RPGs - or would RPGs even exist without the D&D flagship? Regardless, within the first week, maybe even on the first day, someone (probably with Autohypnosis or Aedetic Memory) would recreate D&D, online, unless the memory of D&D were erased from us, as well. This will pose a problem for those trying to sell their "revolutionary, new idea" to WotC or Gary Gygax. (Think… Yesterday) (Note: It will also mean that everyone and their brother will know about numerous things, such as Elder Brains, even before we explicitly mention them.)

People like me (OK, well, probably just me) would be evaluating this retcon change for frayed edges (think 13th Floor), to determine whether the world changed, or we did.

And I'd think corporations would get involved pretty early, wanting to get in on the ground floor, and those who waited for 2021 would be left in the dust.

I'll post more from the peanut gallery later.

[Troacctid]

This is very clever, but AFAIK Shaper of Form doesn't let you create magic items. It lets you reshape existing magic items, but doesn't seem to change their enchantments at all (it explicitly says "The magic qualities do not change"). It also wears off in 24 hours.
That's only if the item is already magical to begin with. Which version of the ability you use depends on what the item starts as, not on what it turns into.

The main trick is getting objects valuable enough. Being able to double the value every day helps a lot, though. So does transforming buildings and other stationary architectural features; they have a high starting value and you can get a substantial discount on a magic item if it's in the form of wondrous architecture. Another possible trick is collectibles: PAO a Magic card into a mint condition Alpha Black Lotus to skyrocket its value, then turn it into, I dunno, a scroll or something.


And are you applying Human Paragon to Heir of Siberys, or to another class?
This build can only apply advancement to warlock. At level 20, I should end up with 11 effective levels of warlock, just enough to get a greater invocation. I'm thinking either devil's whispers or devour magic.


Which Dragonmark are you taking?
Sentinel is the one that gives mind blank.

[Elricaltovilla]

Are we to assume that we are now going into this series of events with the foreknowledge outlined in the revelation post? Because what I would likely do would change drastically based on whether or not I actually know what is going to happen.

Still, it doesn't change the basics of my plan, which would be gather as much knowledge and skills as possible, then focus on survival. And in any case, this thread being a hub of empowered individuals would be my first stop to try and set up some form of mutual support network. I hope everyone else here chose a less revealing user name than I did. Because the government is definitely going to come after us.

I have a lot of questions about the events described in the revelation, but I don't have the time to put them all down yet. My plans for the future will depend a lot on how the questions are answered.

I'm also concerned about how quickly the timetable progresses. I hit level 20 in about 7 years, but by that point we are already a couple world wars and an imminent nuclear threat into things.

[ben-zayb]

So, as far as I can tell, this doesn't work.
The alternate form ability can get you the proteans destabilize (ex) cause it's a special attack, but not its alter shape (ex) because it's a special quality. MoMF also doesn't give you it, since you didn't directly wildshape into that form.That's...quite true. That is what I get when bootlegging a build that originally uses Shapeshifter for Wild Shape forms.

Are rebuilding rules available? I'd see if I can instead dip 1 level of Shapeshifter. IIRC, it's form is based on HD, and the Cannibalize trick should make that reachable. I imagine the knowledge check, if needed, to discover Shapeshifter should be low considering that I already have classes that focus on Wild Shape.

If not, available forms and their Ex attacks for Phasm would be still ridiculously powerful. Also, most of the creatures I mentioned that are within 15HD and are neither undead nor outsider are still pretty much available.

[RatElemental]

Honestly my plan stays the same regardless. I never wanted to be a hero or to fight anything, I just want shapeshifting powers.

Let the paladins deal with that nonsense.

[Sinner's Garden]

Oh boy, did someone say ancient monster from beyond the stars out to destroy all the false prophets and reset this world to its purest, most untainted* form? Warlock time, go! I'm up to free that monster and destroy the evil* outsiders once and for all.

*In the classic D&D cosmology, Law and Good are both unnatural creations of the gods, and Chaos is the true state of the world that all things originated from. Return all things to the formless chaos at the dawn of time and save the world!

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Sounds like a cool campaign journal. Did you run this previously with your group?
I've ran parts of it as oneshots last year (I love the "magic is returning" idea and semi-regularly run oneshots where my players are people, police or investigators in such a world), but that's it. Sadly my group is now utterly splintered :'(


Winding down? This is when things get interesting! Although, sadly, my build (such as it is) isn't very well designed to interact meaningfully with these conditions / scenarios.
I don't expect a single character to singlehandedly change all of these events. Some of the bigger ones will require a whole bunch of people, organisation, etc.
But hey, "survive" is a very valid objective!


For instance, day 1. WotC could get by on the strength of CCGs - Pokemon, MtG, etc. But what about the Playground? Would it just have other RPGs - or would RPGs even exist without the D&D flagship? Regardless, within the first week, maybe even on the first day, someone (probably with Autohypnosis or Aedetic Memory) would recreate D&D, online, unless the memory of D&D were erased from us, as well. This will pose a problem for those trying to sell their "revolutionary, new idea" to WotC or Gary Gygax.
Poor WOTC staff. They'll wake up one morning with no idea what their job is, exactly. And their bosses will start to wonder why they have all this staff and these offices, and what they do. This will certainly be noticed and investigated, but they probably won't find anything.
You remember D&D, yes, but will you share it with everyone?


People like me (OK, well, probably just me) would be evaluating this retcon change for frayed edges (think 13th Floor), to determine whether the world changed, or we did.I don't know what 13th Floor is? Are you looking for some sort of crack in reality or something? Something strange to exploit, or some way to detect other retcons?
Interesting idea.


That's only if the item is already magical to begin with. Which version of the ability you use depends on what the item starts as, not on what it turns into.

The main trick is getting objects valuable enough. Being able to double the value every day helps a lot, though. So does transforming buildings and other stationary architectural features; they have a high starting value and you can get a substantial discount on a magic item if it's in the form of wondrous architecture. Another possible trick is collectibles: PAO a Magic card into a mint condition Alpha Black Lotus to skyrocket its value, then turn it into, I dunno, a scroll or something.


This build can only apply advancement to warlock. At level 20, I should end up with 11 effective levels of warlock, just enough to get a greater invocation. I'm thinking either devil's whispers or devour magic.
Honestly the more I think about this, the more I'm impressed. It just works so well on every level. Decent skills including excellent social skills and UMD, Cha focus, Dysjunction and "As Above, So Below" which will be useful against many of the threats coming, great transmutation abilities, and the power to create magic items you need. It's basically perfect, and I wish I'd thought of it.
It can even let you become a Changeling!

Edit : Wow, it can even make you a spaceship. There doesn't seem to be any restriction against making things that you don't actually know how to make (manufactured items, or in this modern context things like computers, etc). That's insanely convenient. Presumably anything supernatural would have to be a magic item, but a bog-standard spaceship (airtight, with engines, etc) can be made if you have a valuable enough building of the right size. Of course a modern-era spaceship is nowhere near fast enough to get to the Oort Cloud in a reasonable timeframe, but that's what magitech or magic items are for... TNE is a magitech engineer, right?


Are we to assume that we are now going into this series of events with the foreknowledge outlined in the revelation post?
Nope, no foreknowledge.

I'm also concerned about how quickly the timetable progresses. I hit level 20 in about 7 years, but by that point we are already a couple world wars and an imminent nuclear threat into things.Indeed. Fast leveling classes can try to head off such events, but slow builds which rely on waiting for level 20 should probably plan on hiding somewhere, or else have the power to survive and escape a Wraith horde or missile even at lower levels. Not impossible!

Are rebuilding rules available? I'd see if I can instead dip 1 level of Shapeshifter. IIRC, it's form is based on HD, and the Cannibalize trick should make that reachable. I imagine the knowledge check, if needed, to discover Shapeshifter should be low considering that I already have classes that focus on Wild Shape.No rebuilding, but you can always drain and restoration if you can get access to those abilities. Look to buy items or something, I suppose.

Incidentally, getting restoration without buying the item is surprisingly hard. AFAIK the only way to get it in the restrictions of this thread is through a Binder with an ally capable of Plane Shift (you'll need to get to another Plane where Outsiders can cast spells, and then summon Firre Eladrins until you get one that has the spell prepared), or a Truenamer or Incarnate willing to use Gate (and probably on another Plane too, because I can't find any creatures with a Restoration SLA).
This makes retraining hard, which is a feature, not a bug.

[Quertus]

I don't expect a single character to singlehandedly change all of these events. Some of the bigger ones will require a whole bunch of people, organisation, etc.

The biggest one is best handled by a single person, IMO. Also, I'm the only person I've ever seen respond to that style scenario (which I've seen many, many times as a player) with a 3rd option. But my "character" would not be positioned to interact meaningfully with any of these events (if things went "according to (my) plan", that is).

Regardless, I will continue to interact as the "peanut gallery", to add details of what the 4400 likely would do, should you ever get to run this scenario.


But hey, "survive" is a very valid objective!

Not really.


Poor WOTC staff. They'll wake up one morning with no idea what their job is, exactly. And their bosses will start to wonder why they have all this staff and these offices, and what they do. This will certainly be noticed and investigated, but they probably won't find anything.
You remember D&D, yes, but will you share it with everyone?

I don't know what 13th Floor is? Are you looking for some sort of crack in reality or something? Something strange to exploit, or some way to detect other retcons?

That's the kind of "crack" I was looking for.

At its most trivial, it lets me know the truth of the world (as opposed to, say, this world has never had D&D, and we "Exalted" were touched by madness). There are also potential advanced uses of this knowledge.


You remember D&D, yes, but will you share it with everyone?

Someone will.


There doesn't seem to be any restriction against making things that you don't actually know how to make

Citation on Sculpt Self having more of such a restriction than this or item crafting does needed.

You've got these two opposed "feelings", two opposed "themes", that you should, IMO, either reconcile, or explore. Because, if you do not reconcile them, they are a crack, that a player like me will want to Explore.

-----

And now, more from the peanut gallery.

Actually, I'm more into asking questions at this step. What is the nature of, and who are the perpetrators of these supernatural crimes? If it's only (a fraction of) the 8k PCs in the world… who cares? And who even notices? But if it's "monsters", I would probably suspect that this is the purpose of the "vague warning" we were given.

What started the Wightpocalypses? If it was PCs, could they have been prevented by "some idiot" sharing the D&D system, plus me trying to coordinate the Exalted? Or is this just "rampaging monsters"?

And… what was who thinking?

So, seemingly, the Celestials sent out a burst of power, which was intercepted by the King in Yellow. OK… why would the Celestials do this? What did they hope to accomplish / prevent? Knowing that it was intercepted, why continue? It doesn't make sense, IMO. Going off every 10 years, like clockwork, makes it sound like it originated elsewhere (like Mechanus, actually, if we're using D&D cosmology).

So, if I got involved (so much for peanut gallery), it would probably be to collect those touched by the power (like the PCs, the WotC staff (followers! I call dibs!), etc) to use as "magnets" to point to "true north" to track down the Source, to investigate (and, possibly, "widen the crack", or go all "Doctor Doom" & utilize it). Also, expect that I'll make efforts to subtly keep things like the corpses of any such "touched by power" beings, as well as any similar objects, sites, etc, that I can get ahold of ("on the cheap", depending on my budget), to use as components / ritual sites / whatever.

And who gave the vague warning? Why?

Also, where are all these beings (Arcane, Efreet) coming from? Other planes (that have, what, all been sealed up for millennia (ie, during their lifetime)), or alternate prime material worlds? More to my specific questions, 1) do they know of any alternate prime material worlds; 2) are cohorts taken from "not humanity" / "not this world's humanity" (note that this includes the year 1 fey) capable of Spellcasting (off world, of course)?

[ben-zayb]

Incidentally, getting restoration without buying the item is surprisingly hard. AFAIK the only way to get it in the restrictions of this thread is through a Binder with an ally capable of Plane Shift (you'll need to get to another Plane where Outsiders can cast spells, and then summon Firre Eladrins until you get one that has the spell prepared), or a Truenamer or Incarnate willing to use Gate (and probably on another Plane too, because I can't find any creatures with a Restoration SLA).
This makes retraining hard, which is a feature, not a bug.
Shaedlings have the Extraordinary Attack Shadow Gossamer that allows one to create any item of 15 lbs or less. Even if limited to weapons only, it still allows one to make Luck Blades for Wish

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Citation on Sculpt Self having more of such a restriction than this or item crafting does needed.

You've got these two opposed "feelings", two opposed "themes", that you should, IMO, either reconcile, or explore. Because, if you do not reconcile them, they are a crack, that a player like me will want to Explore.
Several answers here:
- Sculpt Self is different from item crafting. It doesn't seem to require material components or crafting time, it can't e taken away or destroyed...
- Now that I think about it, I don't think Troaccid's build is functional. Shaper of Form requires transmutation spells to qualify, and Troaccid is using SLAs from Factotum. AFAIK that doesn't work. Dammit, it was a clever choice otherwise.
- You can explore this crack all you want, there genuinely isn't anything behind it other than my personal preference and dislike for Sculpt Self.


Actually, I'm more into asking questions at this step. What is the nature of, and who are the perpetrators of these supernatural crimes? If it's only (a fraction of) the 8k PCs in the world… who cares? And who even notices? But if it's "monsters", I would probably suspect that this is the purpose of the "vague warning" we were given.
Does it matter? A few high-profile cases of mind-control being used to do horrible things, or of PCs using the BOVD gruesome sacrifice rituals to summon Demons, are all that's needed to cause a horrible media frenzy, terrible PR, and maybe some stupid emergency lawmaking in certain countries.
Fey or PCs would both produce that kind of result.


What started the Wightpocalypses? If it was PCs, could they have been prevented by "some idiot" sharing the D&D system, plus me trying to coordinate the Exalted? Or is this just "rampaging monsters"?
Yes, this could probably have been prevented. I didn't specify who because I legitimately didn't decide. It could have been deliberate or an accident, it could have been terrorism or a failed experiment getting loose, it could have been a PC being trigger-happy with negative levels and not sticking around for hours to check that every target doesn't return as a Wight, etc. I didn't want to write a novel's worth of details. Investigate and Divine this for yourself!



So, seemingly, the Celestials sent out a burst of power, which was intercepted by the King in Yellow. OK… why would the Celestials do this? What did they hope to accomplish / prevent? Knowing that it was intercepted, why continue? It doesn't make sense, IMO. Going off every 10 years, like clockwork, makes it sound like it originated elsewhere (like Mechanus, actually, if we're using D&D cosmology).
I intended this return of magic to be a preset thing. An effect set up by long-dead Good gods which is still running despite another entity managing to hijack with it, something like that. The Celestials know about it because they're immortal outsiders with long memories, not because they control it. If they could control it things would be going much better and the portals would be opening to far nicer places instead.
Yes, it can be studied. This sounds like a very difficult long-term project (mortals studying a god's work, etc), but strictly speaking it isn't really impossible.


Also, where are all these beings (Arcane, Efreet) coming from? Other planes (that have, what, all been sealed up for millennia (ie, during their lifetime)), or alternate prime material worlds? More to my specific questions, 1) do they know of any alternate prime material worlds; 2) are cohorts taken from "not humanity" / "not this world's humanity" (note that this includes the year 1 fey) capable of Spellcasting (off world, of course)?
1) Other planes sealed up for millennia. They don't know of other Prime Material worlds, but if they'd been asked before this world began connecting to other Planes they would have said that there's no such thing as a Prime Material, so who knows really?
2) If they leveled automatically because they're your cohort, then they can't cast spells. If you don't take a cohort and instead go off-Plane and use your leadership skills to try to get your hands on an powerful caster willing to act as an apprentice/assistant/cohort, then the Leadership feat will help you get their loyalty more easily and they will count as your cohort while remaining able to cast spells. But if they automatically level due to your leadership feat, they're now affected by the ban on spellcasting just like a human. Of course finding such a person might take a while if you're unlucky or don't prove yourself worthy of a first glance, but that's how life is.

[Quertus]

Does it matter? A few high-profile cases of mind-control being used to do horrible things, or of PCs using the BOVD gruesome sacrifice rituals to summon Demons,

Ah. That type of crime.

Foolish PCs (which could be prevented), or Demon-summoning, or fey. Heck, I imagine lots of idiots who aren't PCs would be sacrificing (and mass sacrificing) once Magic "came back". I expect damage control of "these guys are idiots" would keep most of the fire off of us, at least until fey involvement was discovered.

The real demons are an issue. Never mind that they are a pr issue.

But high-profile mind control? I don't see that getting out, to become a pr issue. Someone charms all the world leaders, then dies, then they all hate him? OK. We start disappearing, maybe. But I'm not seeing how this one turns out the way you described.


Yes, this could probably have been prevented.

Good. Assuming it is prevented, does anything else change in your timetable?


This sounds like a very difficult long-term project (mortals studying a god's work, etc), but strictly speaking it isn't really impossible.

Good. If D&D is any guide, gods are idiots. Powerful idiots, but idiots nonetheless. Heck, an "imprisoned" being corrupted it (whose imprisonment was created by the gods, right?), which full circle demonstrates that these gods don't come off as any smarter than D&D gods.

Of course, I'll be post-lobotomy, so I'll need an "untainted" genius that no one has foolishly turned into a cohort to deal with this for me.

Fortunately, my plan would call for such anyway (we need an unaltered/untainted/unsullied to point the compass, after all).


2) If they leveled automatically because they're your cohort, then they can't cast spells. If you don't take a cohort and instead go off-Plane and use your leadership skills to try to get your hands on an powerful caster willing to act as an apprentice/assistant/cohort, then the Leadership feat will help you get their loyalty more easily and they will count as your cohort while remaining able to cast spells. But if they automatically level due to your leadership feat, they're now affected by the ban on spellcasting just like a human. Of course finding such a person might take a while if you're unlucky or don't prove yourself worthy of a first glance, but that's how life is.

So if, year 1, I find a fey caster who, after adventuring with me finally become my cohort year 2, what happens? Nothing? They continue leveling their way, and I "wasted" a cohort slot? Or they start leveling my way, and lose casting, and I "wasted" a cohort slot?

[TotallyNotEvil]

That Shaper of Form trick seems to barely be within RAW. The permanent change is from one explicitly non-magic object into "a similar object".

Being magic or not is a clearly delineated boundary, so much so that there are specific parts of the ability pertaining to magic items.

Infinitely doubling an item's worth is also not really feasible, as anything you change, by definition, had an original worth. It's a permanent effect, too, not an instant one, as it even mentions how you can only dispel it through Wish or Miracle.

[Elricaltovilla]

So I keep trying to post in this thread and it keeps getting interrupted because... Idk why, but maybe this time it'll work.

My primary goal is survival of myself and my loved ones. I will probably start off by laying low years 2020 and 2021, and working on using my limited Wildshape to get into some hard to fulfill niche jobs. There's plenty of stuff stuck on the bottom of the ocean that's pretty valuable, so I could make good use of that to amass a small fortune to cover basic needs.

There are items I need to protect myself and my loved ones that I likely won't be able get without extraplanar trade, so I will probably have to make a deal with the Mercane at one point or another. Devils and demons can't be trusted, efreeti arrive too late and are slavers (and thus morally objectionable). The Mercane at least can be trusted to honor a trade deal, which is probably the best I'm going to get. The goal is to avoid any permanent debts.

Once myself and my loved ones are secured, we're going to find a way off this rock. There's simply not enough that can be done by the small group of exalted presented in the scenario to prevent or noticeably alter the outcomes given here. Especially since it seems like most of the NPC exalted enjoy killing off each other at least as much as they enjoy fighting the rather obvious external threats that are arriving.

Ideally, I'd try to put myself in a position to lead and/or coordinate with the GitPers and any other exalts they can locate, but I doubt anyone would really listen to me or support my usual vision for the future.

[Telonius]

Okay, so at-will Detect Magic (from Warlock) and telepathy ... yeah, I'm going to have to be the Professor X of this situation, aren't I. Oh well. Anyway, with all of the stuff going down to start with, I'm going to spend the first few years kind of laying low and avoiding detection, while quietly improving my personal situation (through selective application of Charm and diplomancy). I should be able to keep my family reasonably safe (with limitless Eldritch Blasts) from the wights; we'll just need a generally defensible position. I'd probably involve myself in the Fey negotiations (they'd probably like a Chaotic person like me; Warlock fluff suggests fey powers anyway). I'd take direct action against any anti-PC stuff perpetrated by the mundanes; either through charm, diplomacy, or (later on) framing (Changeling-style), or (if absolutely necessary) assassination or sleeper agent by way of Devil's Whispers.

Devil takeover? Does Not Like. Will work against this overtly or covertly.

Just in general, my MO is going to be behind-the-scenes dealing, and avoiding too much notice or exposure to the wider public.

[Elricaltovilla]

We're going to have a lot of issues if everyone is trying to lay low and only work behind the scenes, lol. I'm with you on being anti-devil Telonius. That's an invasion I definitely do not want to succeed, although I'm on a different continent at this time. I still think we would struggle to make a meaningful impact against such an enemy unless we got all 7,000 exalts on the same page. But that seems unlikely. Do you know how many holy sites there are scattered across Europe that they could portal through? It's a lot.

[Telonius]

We're going to have a lot of issues if everyone is trying to lay low and only work behind the scenes, lol. I'm with you on being anti-devil Telonius. That's an invasion I definitely do not want to succeed, although I'm on a different continent at this time. I still think we would struggle to make a meaningful impact against such an enemy unless we got all 7,000 exalts on the same page. But that seems unlikely. Do you know how many holy sites there are scattered across Europe that they could portal through? It's a lot.

For me it makes a bit more sense, though - I'm currently (literally) across the street from the US State Department. I'm right there already, set to magically influence whatever needs to be influenced. :smallbiggrin:

[Menzath]

I'd probably involve myself in the Fey negotiations (they'd probably like a Chaotic person like me; Warlock fluff suggests fey powers anyway). I'd take direct action against any anti-PC stuff perpetrated by the mundanes; either through charm, diplomacy, or (later on) framing (Changeling-style), or (if absolutely necessary) assassination or sleeper agent by way of Devil's Whispers.

Devil takeover? Does Not Like. Will work against this overtly or covertly.

Just in general, my MO is going to be behind-the-scenes dealing, and avoiding too much notice or exposure to the wider public.

Our builds have a bit of similarity, and although I live on the west coast we would most likely meet while in negotiations with the fey(they might have a better view of me since I'd literally have fey ancestry). I agree with laying low for the first few years for a few different reasons though. 1: we have no ideas when and if we will gain anymore levels, or if others will out level us. 2: we few would know the true insanity that is d&d, and may try and prepare for the crazy with what little we initially have.
3: The tier 5-6 brutes would definitely outshine the partial casters, and could even just squash us, so why not wait till we have more abilities to level the playing field?

Thankfully by the time wightpacolypse's that's to happen I should have some undead minions of my own, and of course Eldritch pewpew. I most likely wouldn't like to step out into the open though till I have secured allies(gitp posters), or people who I could sweet talk into assisting me.

And by year 5/6 my cohort and I should be a 2 man construction crew who can demolish/build/defend/solve most issues you'd ever need taken care of. That and a few people I've permanently convinced to be "friends", even then I'm not the abusive type so I'd keep to to things like doing me favors(getting me info, cheap materials, etc) nothing crazy.

I wonder if I could make a satellite defense system that launch's golems to places in need on Earth?

[Telonius]

Our builds have a bit of similarity, and although I live on the west coast we would most likely meet while in negotiations with the fey(they might have a better view of me since I'd literally have fey ancestry). I agree with laying low for the first few years for a few different reasons though. 1: we have no ideas when and if we will gain anymore levels, or if others will out level us. 2: we few would know the true insanity that is d&d, and may try and prepare for the crazy with what little we initially have.
3: The tier 5-6 brutes would definitely outshine the partial casters, and could even just squash us, so why not wait till we have more abilities to level the playing field?

Thankfully by the time wightpacolypse's that's to happen I should have some undead minions of my own, and of course Eldritch pewpew. I most likely wouldn't like to step out into the open though till I have secured allies(gitp posters), or people who I could sweet talk into assisting me.

And by year 5/6 my cohort and I should be a 2 man construction crew who can demolish/build/defend/solve most issues you'd ever need taken care of. That and a few people I've permanently convinced to be "friends", even then I'm not the abusive type so I'd keep to to things like doing me favors(getting me info, cheap materials, etc) nothing crazy.

I wonder if I could make a satellite defense system that launch's golems to places in need on Earth?


So we're looking at East Coast Fey and West Coast Fey - so with your build the East Coasters are going to be Seelies, and the West Unseelies? :smallbiggrin:

[Elricaltovilla]

I am continually reminded of the need for mind-blank related protection. I would probably make spreading the necessity of that little bit of protection a priority. It would probably go a long way towards heading off several of the issues that crop up on that timeline. Anybody here capable of making self-resetting traps of Mind Blank or at least something similar?

[Menzath]

So we're looking at East Coast Fey and West Coast Fey - so with your build the East Coasters are going to be Seelies, and the West Unseelies? :smallbiggrin:

Works for me, just have to keep them taking care of any released undead, and extraplanar threats.


I am continually reminded of the need for mind-blank related protection. I would probably make spreading the necessity of that little bit of protection a priority. It would probably go a long way towards heading off several of the issues that crop up on that timeline. Anybody here capable of making self-resetting traps of Mind Blank or at least something similar?

Should be doable by lvl15+.

[Maat Mons]

Well, the Truenamers are going to have to get cracking on Gating in Throne Archons. They're the only source of Hallow as a spell-like ability that I can track down.

[Troacctid]

- Now that I think about it, I don't think Troaccid's build is functional. Shaper of Form requires transmutation spells to qualify, and Troaccid is using SLAs from Factotum. AFAIK that doesn't work. Dammit, it was a clever choice otherwise.
Spell-like abilities can't qualify you for spell level requirements, but shaper of form doesn't actually have a spell level requirement, so it shouldn't be an issue. And if it is an issue, I can just switch my entry to Rogue 2/Binder 2/Artificer 1 and qualify with infusions. No sweat.

I can theoretically turn into a changeling, but it would cut me off from heir of Siberys, so I'll probably just stick with human. I do have disguise self at will from year one.

That's not how you spell my name, btw.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Note that many of these threats (the Devils, the Efreet, etc) will have fewer high-level threats than earth. Obviously high-level Devils are rare, as are the mightiest of Efreet champions. The Devils have large amounts of influence and mid-level Devils, while the Efreet have large amounts of magic items and mid-level Outsiders. I mean obviously both will have high-level leaders or elites, but having more top-end characters than the Devils in any individual fight seems possible with a little organization (or good stealth/planning/mobility). Of course most of these threats are also well organized and equipped though...
These threats are numerous and dangerous, but they aren't endless hordes of high-CR enemies. They're organized groups who are obviously mostly "chaff" and mid-level leaders and specialists. So a small group of PCs who have relevant skills and abilities and don't **** everything up can in fact have a local impact, or even a larger impact if they strike well and/or repeatedly. A Devil conspiracy is terrifying, but less so once you realize that most pawns involved can't meaningfully counter a mindreader/sneak or Diviner working their way up the chain to figure out who's a Devil who needs to be taken out, etc.
Of course the enemies will counterattack and all (keep your identity hidden from Devils if you can, and keep yourself and your loved ones safe if you can't! Try to avoid Efreet massed magically-equipped forces, and above all if you've made an Efreet desperate enough to grant wishes make sure there's no compliant human around to grant them to!), but this isn't meant to be a 100% hopeless situation or anything. Just a bad one.


Well, the Truenamers are going to have to get cracking on Gating in Throne Archons. They're the only source of Hallow as a spell-like ability that I can track down.
Binders can do it thousands of times per day with Devas, but it'll take them a few years to get to that level.
What spell are you thinking of typing into all those Hallows?


Spell-like abilities can't qualify you for spell level requirements, but shaper of form doesn't actually have a spell level requirement, so it shouldn't be an issue. And if it is an issue, I can just switch my entry to Rogue 2/Binder 2/Artificer 1 and qualify with infusions. No sweat.

I can theoretically turn into a changeling, but it would cut me off from heir of Siberys, so I'll probably just stick with human. I do have disguise self at will from year one.
Troacctid, I don't see how the ability to use transmutation SLAs qualifies you for an ability that requires transmutation spells. Or is there some sort of equivalency/transparency rule that I'm missing somewhere?

Turning into a changeling is probably a suboptimal idea, yes, but the changeling ability is far better than disguise self because it's an actual physical change. However AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from becoming a changeling, taking Racial Emulation, and simply always staying in variants of the human form when you aren't using Polymorph to stay qualified for Heir of Siberys... Still, this is probably a waste of a feat for a bonus that probably isn't that important.

On another note, I love how so many people with builds that scream "supervillain" (undead slaves, mind-control, etc) are seriously thinking of doing good, fostering stability and fighting back against the worst horrors.

If any of you have ideas on how to spread Mind Blank or avoid Divinations, I'm sure it'll come in handy. Putting lead lining in your homes is probably a good start, and basing your actions off those of someone Mind Blanked is a good way to make yourself harder to predict. Am I forgetting other tricks?

[Troacctid]

CAr allows SLAs of a spell to qualify for prerequisites that require that spell, but not prerequisites that require the ability to cast spells of a particular level.

[Maat Mons]

No other spells tied to the Hallow castings. Just the baseline effects, the ones that last forever without needing to be renewed. (I mean, the benefits that are instantaneous, rather than having a duration.)

One of the baseline effects of Hallow is to duplicate Magic Circle Against Evil. Magic Circle Against Evil, in turn, duplicates Protection from Evil. And, finally, Protection from Evil gives immunity to Charms, Compulsions, and Possession.

If we strategically Hallow all the places where major decisions are made, we can ensure that no one is using Charms, Compulsions, or Possession to sway world events. Given enough time, we can blanket literally the entire Earth's surface in Hallow. The baseline effects never expire, and we can just keep casting it over and over. Eventually, mind-trickery will be completely impossible.

[Menzath]

On another note, I love how so many people with builds that scream "supervillain" (undead slaves, mind-control, etc) are seriously thinking of doing good, fostering stability and fighting back against the worst horrors.


Well I mean, I am doing this all for my own selfish wants. I'd like to live peacefully in my metaphorical(or literal) castle once the world settles down and straightens out.


No other spells tied to the Hallow castings. Just the baseline effects, the ones that last forever without needing to be renewed. (I mean, the benefits that are instantaneous, rather than having a duration.)

One of the baseline effects of Hallow is to duplicate Magic Circle Against Evil. Magic Circle Against Evil, in turn, duplicates Protection from Evil. And, finally, Protection from Evil gives immunity to Charms, Compulsions, and Possession.

If we strategically Hallow all the places where major decisions are made, we can ensure that no one is using Charms, Compulsions, or Possession to sway world events. Given enough time, we can blanket literally the entire Earth's surface in Hallow. The baseline effects never expire, and we can just keep casting it over and over. Eventually, mind-trickery will be completely impossible.

Yeah, till invisible warlocks dispel them... I mean, this place is totally safe from possession and mind control 😉.

[Quertus]

There's plenty of stuff stuck on the bottom of the ocean that's pretty valuable, so I could make good use of that to amass a small fortune to cover basic needs.

Awesome idea. I would recommend you not go alone - hopefully, a few Animorphs will be willing to join you on your aquatic endeavors.


Once myself and my loved ones are secured, we're going to find a way off this rock.

Wrong thread for me to help you much there, sorry.


Especially since it seems like most of the NPC exalted enjoy killing off each other at least as much as they enjoy fighting the rather obvious external threats that are arriving.

I mean, I would try to encourage them to look at the bigger picture, but…


Ideally, I'd try to put myself in a position to lead and/or coordinate with the GitPers and any other exalts they can locate, but I doubt anyone would really listen to me or support my usual vision for the future.

I'm all about coordination and mutual protection and "don't **** on the world plz thanks". What's your unusual vision?


We're going to have a lot of issues if everyone is trying to lay low and only work behind the scenes, lol.

I mean, I hope that everyone will agree that, with what I would become, it is in everyone's best interests to avoid scenarios where me acting more directly is required, no?

Happily, nothing I've seen here sounds like the type of threat that I would be optimized to deal with… in Lawful Evil fashion.


On another note, I love how so many people with builds that scream "supervillain" (undead slaves, mind-control, etc) are seriously thinking of doing good, fostering stability and fighting back against the worst horrors.

Monsters we are lest monsters we become?

I just hope enough Exalted listen to me and the "hive of scum and villainy" known as GitP to save the world.

And that few enough people listen to the "evil is bad, m'kay?" crowd that we can live long enough to save their ignorant hides.

[Maat Mons]

Hallow is an instantaneous effect. It can't be dispelled. It also can't be disjoined. And countering only works at time of casting.

The spell instantaneously turns an area into a holy site. Protection against mental influences is an innate nonmagical effect of a holy site.

There exists no mechanism in-game to undo the effects of Hallow. Not even Unhallow, which would just make the site unholy in addition to being holy.

[StSword]

Huh just noticed something.

Neither of the ghostwalk classes are listed.

Pity.

I would think eidolancer could make an interesting part of a warlock or shadowcaster build, if nothing else.

[Menzath]

Stupid instantaneous effects.

Well it's only an annoyance really, my diplomacy check without items at 20 would be 42, that's pretty much charm without magic.

And I thought of this earlier today but forgot to post-it. Besides us forum posters there will be a bit shy of 8k people who have been given levels. How many of those will be old, infirm, or underage? This alone causes a ton of issues, people using abilities cause they don't know any better, or cause they don't have much time left, or any number of other issues.
Finding these folks and rounding them up into something like the X-mansion would probably be welcomed by the govt. To assist with people doing crazy things.

[Quertus]

Stupid instantaneous effects.

Well it's only an annoyance really, my diplomacy check without items at 20 would be 42, that's pretty much charm without magic.

And I thought of this earlier today but forgot to post-it. Besides us forum posters there will be a bit shy of 8k people who have been given levels. How many of those will be old, infirm, or underage? This alone causes a ton of issues, people using abilities cause they don't know any better, or cause they don't have much time left, or any number of other issues.
Finding these folks and rounding them up into something like the X-mansion would probably be welcomed by the govt. To assist with people doing crazy things.

I definitely want to (locate?) coordinate and educate, not so sure about consolidate. Numerous small groups seems optimal for our distribution, to locate and resolve "threats", and for our survival.

How to handle Cohort testing and distribution may be a bit tricky.

[Elricaltovilla]

Awesome idea. I would recommend you not go alone - hopefully, a few Animorphs will be willing to join you on your aquatic endeavors.

Certainly I would need support staff of some sort. At the time I can engage in my undersea endeavors, I can only Wildshape twice a day for 6 hours at a time, and I'll need to stay in my Wildshape form the whole time as I won't have warshaper's capstone until 2025 I think. At the very least I'll need a boat.



Wrong thread for me to help you much there, sorry.

That's okay, it seems the world naturally opens up enough to make getting off world possible within about 5-7 years. Way too quick by my calculations, but then I'm not the one running the thread.



I mean, I would try to encourage them to look at the bigger picture, but…

" A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet." ~Kay, MiB



I'm all about coordination and mutual protection and "don't **** on the world plz thanks". What's your unusual vision?

In a place like this, it isn't that unusual. In the wider world I'd likely be laughed at. But I'm aiming for a Star Trek style post scarcity society. Unfortunately, my build doesn't quite help me achieve that personally, but I have other ideas that should improve our situation.



I mean, I hope that everyone will agree that, with what I would become, it is in everyone's best interests to avoid scenarios where me acting more directly is required, no?

Happily, nothing I've seen here sounds like the type of threat that I would be optimized to deal with… in Lawful Evil fashion.

I haven't really been following others' builds as much as I've been tweaking my own so I'm not quite certain what your build is supposed to be capable of.



Monsters we are lest monsters we become?

Well my build literally lets me become a monster, so it might be too late for me.:smalltongue:



I just hope enough Exalted listen to me and the "hive of scum and villainy" known as GitP to save the world.

And that few enough people listen to the "evil is bad, m'kay?" crowd that we can live long enough to save their ignorant hides.

It would take a marketing genius to convince people to listen to a bunch of no-name nobodies on some random webcomic's forum. Even then, people would probably just start regarding Rich Burlew as some type of prophet and ignore the rest of us entirely.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Huh just noticed something.

Neither of the ghostwalk classes are listed.

Pity.

I would think eidolancer could make an interesting part of a warlock or shadowcaster build, if nothing else.
I'd entirely forgotten that they existed. Presumably Eidolancer is Tier 1 (it's a wizard expy), and the other one is Tier 4 (it's a Fighter expy).To take them you'll need to be a Ghost, but you can achieve that by taking levels in the Ghost savage progression.

[Menzath]

It would take a marketing genius to convince people to listen to a bunch of no-name nobodies on some random webcomic's forum.


my diplomacy check without items at 20 would be 42, that's pretty much charm without magic.


Done

Oh and I've helped out with marketing adds on a side job I did years back, so I'm not completely inexperienced in that area either.

Also, we(gitp nerds) have seen from stories(books, game, comics, etc) how situations have failed. And with some high int and Wis playgrounders supporting us high cha types, it should be a joke to convince anyone of anything.

[Elricaltovilla]

Done

Oh and I've helped out with marketing adds on a side job I did years back, so I'm not completely inexperienced in that area either.

Also, we(gitp nerds) have seen from stories(books, game, comics, etc) how situations have failed. And with some high int and Wis playgrounders supporting us high cha types, it should be a joke to convince anyone of anything.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Even the smartest people on the planet act like dumbasses at least some of the time.

[Quertus]

Certainly I would need support staff of some sort. At the time I can engage in my undersea endeavors, I can only Wildshape twice a day for 6 hours at a time, and I'll need to stay in my Wildshape form the whole time as I won't have warshaper's capstone until 2025 I think. At the very least I'll need a boat.





That's okay, it seems the world naturally opens up enough to make getting off world possible within about 5-7 years. Way too quick by my calculations, but then I'm not the one running the thread.




" A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet." ~Kay, MiB




In a place like this, it isn't that unusual. In the wider world I'd likely be laughed at. But I'm aiming for a Star Trek style post scarcity society. Unfortunately, my build doesn't quite help me achieve that personally, but I have other ideas that should improve our situation.

The corporations and those in power will kill you. Give me your… whatever details are necessary… and I'll Resurrect you some day, when my Sculpt Self abilities come online (if I myself survive).


I haven't really been following others' builds as much as I've been tweaking my own so I'm not quite certain what your build is supposed to be capable of.

My build is irrelevant. It's the lengths I'll go to to "win¹" that should be concerning.

¹ only applies to engagements which threaten what I care about. Nothing presented in this thread explicitly does so.


Well my build literally lets me become a monster, so it might be too late for me.:smalltongue:

That's the "monsters we are".


It would take a marketing genius to convince people to listen to a bunch of no-name nobodies on some random webcomic's forum.

By year 2, many of us qualify. Best estimate put humanity at E7.


Even then, people would probably just start regarding Rich Burlew as some type of prophet and ignore the rest of us entirely.

No, that would be erased, too.

[Elricaltovilla]

The corporations and those in power will kill you. Give me your… whatever details are necessary… and I'll Resurrect you some day, when my Sculpt Self abilities come online (if I myself survive).


Well I have sculpt self in my build as well, so I suppose we could trade conditional resurrections. I'm amenable to the idea at least. Sculpt self is not something I have used before though, so we'll just have to hope that Animorph-me can use his feats better than regular me.

I assume the corporations will have far more to deal with than little old me until it's too late. At least that's the plan.



My build is irrelevant. It's the lengths I'll go to to "win¹" that should be concerning.

¹ only applies to engagements which threaten what I care about. Nothing presented in this thread explicitly does so.


If you say so.



That's the "monsters we are".


Yes. The joke is that my build makes me become a monster, playing off the second half of the quote, not the first.



By year 2, many of us qualify. Best estimate put humanity at E7.

Best estimate puts most non spellcasters as still being vulnerable to high powered sniper rifles that fire supersonic rounds.

The "heroes are E6" thing is a guideline, there are plenty of exceptions and it would be foolish to discount technology so quickly.



No, that would be erased, too.

Then there would be no point to this discussion as you and I would have no idea of each other's existence and be unable to coordinate or plan.

[Telonius]

Totally erasing D&D is going to leave a pretty big gap in the culture. Re-watching Stranger Things alone would be a weird experience, and without that, some of the bean-counters get confused as to how Netflix suddenly had a bunch of new subscribers. That's even leaving aside all of the "D&D episodes" of everything from Community to My Little Pony. Not to mention hundreds of thousands of nerds who can't remember why they used to get together, eat pizza, and drink massive amounts of Mountain Dew for apparently no reason. I think it's at the point where you could possibly do a, "Reconstruct it from the hole it left," thing.

[Menzath]

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Even the smartest people on the planet act like dumbasses at least some of the time.

Oh believe me I've seen some pretty bad human fails. Even worked with a few. I mean, flat earthers.

I mean, we'd convince government's that people with abilities will be segregated in some form, but if we can control how that happens it can be beneficial towards both parties.
Angling them as something closer to new special elites(or blessed) who can generate wealth and assist in advancing new tech(magitech), while also being able to help with national defense vs. these new outside(rs) threats would be a step in the right direction.
The biggest things is trying to act completely transparent in everything we do. As long as it's perceived as us being open about everything it should go smoothly enough.

[White Blade]

Well, my life as an exalted is really the early game, so here goes:

1) Head to dense population center, like New York (hitchhiking should be easy with Nimbus of Light) - Curse myself for not taking speak language instead of heal.
2) Diplomance my way to leading a mass movement (if I am able to Tumble to effect relationship and then diplomacy to effect relationship.) - I would EXPECT that a Nimbus of Light to make good aligned people friendly, so I’d just tip it over the border to helpful with a six second check. Those helpful people should be willing to send me other people who are also friendly who I could harden into helpful who could send... You get where this is going. Invite people to shoot me personally when they’re hostile. I should be able to get 3%, the tipping point for mass movements, within a month working 16 hour days (8 on 4 off, tirelessness). I should be able to do that in twelve places by the end of the year.
3) Explain my origin story as thoroughly as possible - Including potential threats from the outside.

There are probably many other Vow of Peace diplomancers out there and hopefully some of them also amped Perform (Oratory) - Once they see me out and about, hopefully they’ll start turning out too. Perform Oratory to influence relationships on live TV would be really good for us. Even without that, though the Exalted mass movements should be pretty powerful by 2021. If people opted for Vow of Peace/Poverty and are tier 4 or below should be as good as me at diplomacy, so they should be functional diplomacy machines.

In 2022, the Wightapocalypse will be met with my fists. Also... just like... normal bullets. But hopefully some of the higher OP characters can turn out at that point. I can also negotiate with the Fey if needs be, but probably not a good use of my talents tbh.

2023 These devil cults will face absolutely insane backlash from the disciplined army of followers the exalted good characters have accumulated - Tongue of Sun and Moon means I can now speak to animals and plants and any other nation. Sense Motive should be +29 at least, so the Mercane constructs get outed basically instantly.

2024 - The devils may have engineered the crisis (idk why we failed to stop them) but we’ll make use of it instead.

2025 - My usefulness is winding down, so I retire to live as a doctor somewhere.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Note that nobody actually knows that there are serious threats coming (Devils, extraplanar invasions, etc). Not even you. So starting a huge popular movement against the Devils seems weird - although starting one against wars and then using it against Devils sounds very possible.
This is also why all existing political tensions and crises don't vanish overnight and instead are sometimes worsened by magic. People don't know that they should be preparing for Outsider wars and Wightpocalypses!

Of course you'll have to discover that the Devils are there in the first place, but presumably you have Divination or something, right? Or are you hoping some local PC will go whistle-blower?

On another note, the things that divide people IRL won't magically vanish one people get character levels. So if there's, say, a conflict between India and Pakistan or a civil war in North America, there's a good chance that both sides could have Exalted PCs making speeches or Truenamers gating in Solars or whatever. This is a possibility that everyone will keep in mind - powerful people/groups/governments will try to hire PCs, etc.

And regarding Rezzing : note that Binders can raise an endless amount of people per day once they get enough levels. This may help reduce casualties from various disasters, even though it risks putting Binders in morally difficult positions. Would you (or me as I'm taking a Binder build) spend your days providing healing and Rezzing in hospitals? Can you justify not doing so?

[Ruethgar]

You know, neigh infinite divine ranks are pretty easily possible within the confines of this challenge by the second year. A million people isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but it only takes one person with that power to mess everything up.

[Coventry]

Interesting. Openly admitting to your powers, or not?

Nope! That would get banned so, so fast.

[Quertus]

Totally erasing D&D is going to leave a pretty big gap in the culture.

Yeah, even I didn't expect it to be as huge as it was. "What did I do yesterday? Well, I got together with some friends, and we… um… I can't remember. And why do I have all these empty bookshelves?" "What's my job again?" "Why does the Library of Congress have an inexplicable gap in its ISBN numbers?" "The TV guide says tomorrow's broadcast will be… nothing?" Etc etc etc.


Well I have sculpt self in my build as well, so I suppose we could trade conditional resurrections. I'm amenable to the idea at least. Sculpt self is not something I have used before though, so we'll just have to hope that Animorph-me can use his feats better than regular me.

Thanks. I'm… paranoid (maybe not normally noticeably so, but I would be noticeably so in this "D&D IRL - with vague premonitions of bad stuff" scenario). So… maybe? Depends on the details, when we trade, and if I can overcome my paranoia.


If you say so.

Well, I was willing to call Pazuzu just to turn Evil to get rid of this "conscience" that would be in my way, willing to go Illithid Savant to eat invaders for intel, and willing to sacrifice cohorts to add to the numbers of the Exalted. To name a few of my ideas from this thread.

Normally, I'm really nice, just… don't threaten what I care about, Kay?


Best estimate puts most non spellcasters as still being vulnerable to high powered sniper rifles that fire supersonic rounds.

The "heroes are E6" thing is a guideline, there are plenty of exceptions and it would be foolish to discount technology so quickly.

Oh, I'm definitely not discounting technology or non-Exalted. At all. I'm just saying, from other threads, best estimates put the peak of humanity at lv 7.

Since many of us will surpass that year 2, many of us should be able to make "impossible" DCs; even the rest of us should be quite adept at our specialties.


Then there would be no point to this discussion as you and I would have no idea of each other's existence and be unable to coordinate or plan.

We still remember everything. Things still exist, just all "D&D" has been ripped from… everything that isn't us. So, until the admins banned us for "crazy talk" or "off-topic conversations" or something, we could communicate here, at least.


The biggest things is trying to act completely transparent in everything we do. As long as it's perceived as us being open about everything it should go smoothly enough.

Yeah. My paranoia would, sadly, prevent me from seeing that until someone else started publishing D&D. So, it would take me a few days to get my head straight, then I'd completely agree with you.


Note that nobody actually knows that there are serious threats coming (Devils, extraplanar invasions, etc). Not even you.

Well, the dream did give us a vague warning, at least. All my guesses were completely wrong, so I probably sold my soul for nothing.


So starting a huge popular movement against the Devils seems weird - although starting one against wars and then using it against Devils sounds very possible.
This is also why all existing political tensions and crises don't vanish overnight and instead are sometimes worsened by magic. People don't know that they should be preparing for Outsider wars and Wightpocalypses!

Gotta disagree - people would know that they should be preparing for both, as I would tell them. The Outsider wars perhaps less so, but the Wightpocalypses? That's got the "pocalypse" in it for a reason - one I'd rather avoid. It comes up in many threads, and it's something that this world would have difficulty dealing with. So I'd get the word out there, and hope a) it reaches the Exalted, or b) if any idiots start it in ignorance, or as an apocalyptic act of terrorism, the governments know enough to at least limit the damage as best they can.


a civil war in North America,

… OK, don't break forum rules, but… where did this come from? Whole cloth "this sounds fun", or some existing tensions that are stronger than I'm aware of, or something one of your players engineered, or what?


powerful people/groups/governments will try to hire PCs, etc.

That… might be my best bet for interacting with your plotline.


And regarding Rezzing : note that Binders can raise an endless amount of people per day once they get enough levels. This may help reduce casualties from various disasters, even though it risks putting Binders in morally difficult positions. Would you (or me as I'm taking a Binder build) spend your days providing healing and Rezzing in hospitals? Can you justify not doing so?

If I still had my conscience, I would have a difficult time not retraining as a Binder once I learned that.

As it stands, I suppose I'd just encourage others to encourage a significant portion of the cohorts to be Binders.

[Menzath]

… OK, don't break forum rules, but… where did this come from? Whole cloth "this sounds fun", or some existing tensions that are stronger than I'm aware of, or something one of your players engineered, or what?


Sorry but if tensions got high, it could be a real thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_state)

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/04/24/calexit-plan-to-divorce-california-from-us-is-getting-a-second-chance.html

And I remember there were a few odd stories from other states within the last few years about disinterest in being part of the us.

[White Blade]

Note that nobody actually knows that there are serious threats coming (Devils, extraplanar invasions, etc). Not even you. So starting a huge popular movement against the Devils seems weird - although starting one against wars and then using it against Devils sounds very possible.
This is also why all existing political tensions and crises don't vanish overnight and instead are sometimes worsened by magic. People don't know that they should be preparing for Outsider wars and Wightpocalypses!

Of course you'll have to discover that the Devils are there in the first place, but presumably you have Divination or something, right? Or are you hoping some local PC will go whistle-blower?

On another note, the things that divide people IRL won't magically vanish one people get character levels. So if there's, say, a conflict between India and Pakistan or a civil war in North America, there's a good chance that both sides could have Exalted PCs making speeches or Truenamers gating in Solars or whatever. This is a possibility that everyone will keep in mind - powerful people/groups/governments will try to hire PCs, etc.

We all know in year one that something is mucking with world leaders. That would make me angry. Since I don't have the ability to drop a trap of Mind Blank, a mass movement too large to be Charmed into submission is my main thing (I don't know, after all, how my peers are mind-breaking the world leaders). London, New York, LA, DC, Toronto, Belfast - Those are probably my targets in year one. Just hang a banner over my movement that says, "Democracy and Peace" and call it a day. If the other exalted stake out (say) Toronto, I just let them have it. Start with DC, since I'm an American and I can't carry a passport. Once the Diviners roll around, I'd probably sign up with them.

I'm an organizer in real life, so it's just sorta natural to leverage that specifically. I would probably be doing a mixture of dovishness and framing it from the perspective that problems are coming according to the starter dream so people didn't just turn off the military. Also... how would people cope? Nimbus' description is "All who look upon you know without a doubt that you are a champion of good and are favored by the powers of the Upper Planes." and "Good creatures automatically recognize the radiance surrounding you as a sign of your purity and devotion to the powers of good". One TV appearance and 20% of the population would be, if not fanatically devoted to, at least concerned for me. At any rate, if there are exalted on the other side, I simply call them and ask them to come talk to me (on a borrowed phone, of course). That should keep our movements, if not reconciled with one another, out of each other's ways. De-escalation, all the Exalted people should be good for that even if we can't get along (according to the BoED).

Ultimately, if the Devils aren't doing anything that makes us all go, "Wow, this is worse than some newb getting charm active" and also that having a very popular mass movement doesn't detect, then yeah, they'd escape my notice and I'd need others to report it. But also, I have Sense Motive +29 and Detect Evil, so I'm probably personally vetting all the various leaders in the English speaking world (maybe elsewhere too, if I'd be accepted) for mind-control shenanigans at the point. I think it would be funny to have a bodhisattva/saint-style figure asking background check questions: "Are you now, or have you ever been, in the service of one of the empowered?" and "Please describe your dealings with any supernatural figures, such as the fey".

[StSword]

I'd entirely forgotten that they existed. Presumably Eidolancer is Tier 1 (it's a wizard expy), and the other one is Tier 4 (it's a Fighter expy).To take them you'll need to be a Ghost, but you can achieve that by taking levels in the Ghost savage progression.

Eidolancer acts as a prestige class, advancing the spellcasting ability of the ghost's previous class.

I wouldn't think a shadowcaster or warlock eidolancer would deserve T1.

[Quertus]

We all know in year one that something is mucking with world leaders. That would make me angry.

If you were willing to work with me (I would get easily noticed if you continued reading GitP after the "erasure" of D&D), you might suspect the "cohort" scenario (and might have things to say about my suggesting it for next year…).

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Eidolancer acts as a prestige class, advancing the spellcasting ability of the ghost's previous class.

I wouldn't think a shadowcaster or warlock eidolancer would deserve T1.
True. Same Tier as the original class, then.

[Elricaltovilla]

Can you add the timetable to your first post so that it's easier to locate for reference purposes?

[White Blade]

If you were willing to work with me (I would get easily noticed if you continued reading GitP after the "erasure" of D&D), you might suspect the "cohort" scenario (and might have things to say about my suggesting it for next year…).

I doubt I would hang around without D&D or OOTS to bring me back, my build is already locked in, and I won't a computer or smart phone so...

[Ruethgar]

I’m thinking of all the references to D&D. Would all of my third party books still be there? How far from D&D do they have to be to stay? Would PF almost entirely vanish since about half of it is directly ripped from D&D? What about d20 Modern and GURPS? Would sufficiently homebrewed games no longer be D&D or merely selectively erased?

[Elricaltovilla]

I’m thinking of all the references to D&D. Would all of my third party books still be there? How far from D&D do they have to be to stay? Would PF almost entirely vanish since about half of it is directly ripped from D&D? What about d20 Modern and GURPS? Would sufficiently homebrewed games no longer be D&D or merely selectively erased?

See Barry? This is why you don't **** with the time stream!

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I guess the movies wouldn't exist any longer. That would be a win.

[Quertus]

Hmm... I guess the movies wouldn't exist any longer. That would be a win.

Agreed. Possibly the best win from this scenario so far.. :smallbiggrin: (I tried to reference the movies earlier referring to the empty spot on TV)

[EndlessKng]

Not sure the power level of the build, but I'd probably actually go for the Spellfire Channeler prestige class for at least a level or two, but also taking Leadership at 6th level as I join the class to get a cohort. Who will be a warlock.

Why? Simple: Unlimited Spellfire. Warlock can channel the Eldritch Blast into me, and as an SLA I can negate it and absorb it as if it was a spell. Its level will probably be 2 at minimum, meaning two levels of spellfire a turn until I'm full up. Even with Constitution 10 at 6th level, I can store up to 20 levels of Spellfire (with some minor cosmetic effects). That's a big boom waiting to happen. If I go up to level 10, I could unload the maximum in a 50d6 (assuming no extra con at that point) spread against anything twenty feet in front of me. But, spellfire can also heal, so it could be a slow but ultimately unlimited healing effect, even at low levels. Of course, a warlock can use EB on its own without limitation, but by 20 level even a single 10d6 attack would be greater than any amount of EB I could muster on my own without Hellfire Warlock. Then again, as a backup, that isn't a terrible idea, plus Invocations are ballin'. And I don't need all ten levels of channeler, really - just a couple to allow my charges to go critical when needed

Probably I'd go Warlock 12/Binder 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Spellfire Channeler 3. This gets me Imbue Item on Warlock (a way around issues with lacking Magical Items), gives me access to the Vestige that heals ability damage constantly (so I can use Hellfire Blast if I need to), and gives me access to a big ole' 13d6 Hellfire blast, with the ability to store up spellfire up to 3x my constitution score for healing or for a bigger blast if I need to. Invocations will include Fell Flight and the Invisibility one, so by year 2 I have a cohort who can help tap off my Spellfire tanks and then fly around without anyone seeing me or the effects of my spellfire. Not the most powerful build, but an effective and fun one, and one that can last a long time without needing much recharge. And the glow of the spellfire if I drop the invisibility lets me look like a Knight Radiant (really... the entire Spellfire Channeler class functions pretty close to what a Windrunner can do, with a bit more...)

-

If Spheres of Power from Pathfinder were allowed, though, this would be a different conversation - I'd probably be building a Bladewalker Armiger and/or Blaster Armorist because why not be Archer from Fate Stay Night and Mega Man rolled into one?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Not sure the power level of the build, but I'd probably actually go for the Spellfire Channeler prestige class for at least a level or two, but also taking Leadership at 6th level as I join the class to get a cohort. Who will be a warlock.

Why? Simple: Unlimited Spellfire. Warlock can channel the Eldritch Blast into me, and as an SLA I can negate it and absorb it as if it was a spell. Its level will probably be 2 at minimum, meaning two levels of spellfire a turn until I'm full up. Even with Constitution 10 at 6th level, I can store up to 20 levels of Spellfire (with some minor cosmetic effects). That's a big boom waiting to happen. If I go up to level 10, I could unload the maximum in a 50d6 (assuming no extra con at that point) spread against anything twenty feet in front of me. But, spellfire can also heal, so it could be a slow but ultimately unlimited healing effect, even at low levels. Of course, a warlock can use EB on its own without limitation, but by 20 level even a single 10d6 attack would be greater than any amount of EB I could muster on my own without Hellfire Warlock. Then again, as a backup, that isn't a terrible idea, plus Invocations are ballin'. And I don't need all ten levels of channeler, really - just a couple to allow my charges to go critical when needed

Probably I'd go Warlock 12/Binder 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Spellfire Channeler 3. This gets me Imbue Item on Warlock (a way around issues with lacking Magical Items), gives me access to the Vestige that heals ability damage constantly (so I can use Hellfire Blast if I need to), and gives me access to a big ole' 13d6 Hellfire blast, with the ability to store up spellfire up to 3x my constitution score for healing or for a bigger blast if I need to. Invocations will include Fell Flight and the Invisibility one, so by year 2 I have a cohort who can help tap off my Spellfire tanks and then fly around without anyone seeing me or the effects of my spellfire. Not the most powerful build, but an effective and fun one, and one that can last a long time without needing much recharge. And the glow of the spellfire if I drop the invisibility lets me look like a Knight Radiant (really... the entire Spellfire Channeler class functions pretty close to what a Windrunner can do, with a bit more...)

Not only is this clever, it also has potentially hilarious effects if you use Hellfire Warlock too much while fighting a magic-user of any sort : your storage capacity depends on your Con and bad things can happen if you lose too much Con, but you're also using an ability that lowers Con all the time :D

I approve this plan.

[El Dorado]

In 2020, I'll be helping out in my region as events begin to unfold. I can sense nearby evil and am immune to fear. These two abilities will help keep my life interesting as I poke my nose into whatever strange events catch my interest. Join a martial arts club for fun and fitness.

In 2021, this is when street level hero kicks into high gear. Some of the more fun monk abilities (speed, slow fall, self-heal) come online. My day job is likely in a dojo. Might be part of a like-minded group of folks, working with law enforcement if there's not a local vigilante ban.

In 2022, the hero gig continues. Diplomacy and Sense Motive are +15 so I have some skill at diffusing conflicts non-violently. When the Wightpocalypse hits, am ready to tussle. If things get really bad, can evacuate myself and a couple of others using abundant step.

In 2023, I hit level 20. biggest change is gaining spell resistance, which adds another layer of protection against magical threats.

I don't have any of the Knowledges so I'm not sure how much of the "big picture" I'd learn beyond what I can talk to people about (although I can talk to anyone now). Still plenty of stuff to keep busy with around the world to keep busy with.

[EndlessKng]

Not only is this clever, it also has potentially hilarious effects if you use Hellfire Warlock too much while fighting a magic-user of any sort : your storage capacity depends on your Con and bad things can happen if you lose too much Con, but you're also using an ability that lowers Con all the time :D

I approve this plan.

...you're right, I hadn't considered that (I've given a lot more thought to the Warlock cohort to a Spellfire channeler), but I'm still going through with this. Admittedly this shouldn't matter for a couple years at least - as Warlock is a Tier 3, and given that I want Binder before I grab Hellfire (for the Vestige that restores ability damage), and given that Hellfire is a PrC that requires, like, 9 levels to get (because of skill reqs), it's at least three years before that even becomes a concern (later if I focus on Spellfire channeler or Imbue Item first - getting Warlock 12 in four years may be the smartest goal).

But yes... it could get a bit... unpredictable depending on how much spellfire I have...

[Quertus]

More commentary from the peanut gallery.

So, what's with the "Weak Fey begin returning to certain places in this world. As years go on, more passages to the Feywild can be found, and more powerful Fey will be able to pass."? While this makes perfect sense from a… lore(?) perspective, it doesn't seem to match D&D logic afaik. If there are portals, then anyone can pass, regardless of their power level.

"Geopolitical chaos as multiple world leaders are taken as cohorts" - eh, so it's discovered that the president suddenly has a thing for Monika, so what? World leaders can make new friends. Since you didn't make it mind control, it won't have a big effect (aside from the particularly charismatic ones becoming more boorish or the particularly level-headed one becoming less wise when their stats get reduced).

"Most Wights prefer to use their slam attacks in battle, but they still have their Int score and knowledge and will use human weapons or technology is they seem likely to all die." - I missed that the first time around. Weights are terrifying! I want to run over monsters with a tank, not have monsters run over me with a tank!

"Magic brings great success to space exploration. " - this is one of several places where I'm curious what "tech" you think will help with these endeavors.

"Governments in Europe begin acting less strangely, enacting measures against mind-control, Leadership shenanigans, and even some forms of Teleportation/Divination." - another place where I'm curious about underlying tech - how does one prevent Leadership? Also, this doesn't address Diplomacy which, in your system, appears to be better than Leadership.

"The Dreamers splinter over internal disagreements. Several die. " - details? Is this one of the pieces that you ran?

[RatElemental]

"Magic brings great success to space exploration. " - this is one of several places where I'm curious what "tech" you think will help with these endeavors.


The ability to teleport straight up a few miles would get you out of earth's gravity well a lot more easily, and by just teleporting as far as you can in the direction of, say, the moon, you can get there a bit faster if you spam it. A bottle of air would also be an incredible asset, as would extradimensional storage spaces.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah, you could save a ton of weight with creative use of extradimensional storage, and bottles of air/water alone.

Then you get into the infinite energy source that is wall of flame and the cost of space travel quickly plummets. Plus, once you get a 20th level truenamer onto the moon, you can just create a gate network, allowing you to bypass a lot of headache inducing issues.

[Menzath]

"Geopolitical chaos as multiple world leaders are taken as cohorts" - eh, so it's discovered that the president suddenly has a thing for Monika, so what? World leaders can make new friends. Since you didn't make it mind control, it won't have a big effect (aside from the particularly charismatic ones becoming more boorish or the particularly level-headed one becoming less wise when their stats get reduced).

The easiest way to prevent world leader cohorting, is to either have them be a powered pc, or make them a cohort to a PC said government can rely on already.




"Magic brings great success to space exploration. " - this is one of several places where I'm curious what "tech" you think will help with these endeavors.

Magically enchanted items tend to be unbreakable by non-magiciy means, and even then dream created materials can have better durability and tensile strength than common steel or other materials.
Also being able to create rare materials in an abundance.



"Governments in Europe begin acting less strangely, enacting measures against mind-control, Leadership shenanigans, and even some forms of Teleportation/Divination." - another place where I'm curious about underlying tech - how does one prevent Leadership? Also, this doesn't address Diplomacy which, in your system, appears to be better than Leadership.

As above for preventing leadership. Not any "tech" I can think of d&d or otherwise that could prevent it though.
And diplomacy.... Still broken