Descent Into Avernus DM Tips

[xroads]

In a few weeks I'll be running Descent Into Avernus for my gaming group. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions? Things to avoid? Things not to forget?

Thanks in advance!

:roach:

[1Pirate]

The big thing(for me) is that when you get to Avernus, the module sets out two "paths" for the PCs to take. I advise setting things up so the PCs don't have to stick to the one path in order to find the Bleeding Citadel(If there are Critical Role fans in the party, they might want to check out Arkhan's Tower independently of anything else)..

If the PCs get some cool goodies on their war machines, set up an encounter where they'll get to show them off.

This is a big "Your Milage May Vary" but I found that keeping tabs on Lulu to be a bit of a pain, so I had the party find her imprisoned in a gem. She could still communicate and provide plot relevant information, but she wouldn't be as big a drain on resources and I didn't have to deal with an extra stealth check or another initiative roll.

[da newt]

I haven't been able to verify this for myself, but I've been told that if you use Find Familiar your Familiar is an IMP and Find Steed gives you a NIGHTMARE.

I'm all for the flavor but in my opinion, these changes violate the balance of things.

The cost of the Warlock's Chain pact is much more than a simple 1 lvl ritual and it should be. An Owl familiar is already very handy, but an IMP for the cost of an Owl is ridiculous and devalues the Pact of the Chain.

The Find Steed one is even more out of whack - a 2nd lvl spell that nets you a challenge rating 1/2, 19 hp Warhorse normally now nets you a challenge rating 3, 68 hp, FLYING horse that can also slip between the Ethereal and Material plane at will and more. This is just bonkers. Find Greater Steed tops out at challenge rating 2 steeds and is a lvl 4 spell.

Both of these can be exploited, and become broken. Ludic Savant's Paladin Valkyrie build just became BONKERS at 5th lvl.

[Woglin]

I haven't been able to verify this for myself, but I've been told that if you use Find Familiar your Familiar is an IMP and Find Steed gives you a NIGHTMARE.

I'm all for the flavor but in my opinion, these changes violate the balance of things.

The cost of the Warlock's Chain pact is much more than a simple 1 lvl ritual and it should be. An Owl familiar is already very handy, but an IMP for the cost of an Owl is ridiculous and devalues the Pact of the Chain.

The Find Steed one is even more out of whack - a 2nd lvl spell that nets you a challenge rating 1/2, 19 hp Warhorse normally now nets you a challenge rating 3, 68 hp, FLYING horse that can also slip between the Ethereal and Material plane at will and more. This is just bonkers. Find Greater Steed tops out at challenge rating 2 steeds and is a lvl 4 spell.

Both of these can be exploited, and become broken. Ludic Savant's Paladin Valkyrie build just became BONKERS at 5th lvl.
The book lists all these changes as "Cosmetic Spell Modfications", and makes it clear that the alterations are purely for flavour, and up to the DMs discretion. If you cast Find Familiar in Avernus, then your DM might decide your familiar *looks* like an imp, but the stats shouldn't change.

[1Pirate]

I haven't been able to verify this for myself...
SNIP

You probably weren’t able to verify it because none of that is true. You can get an imp, but not with FF, you have to sell your soul for it(or get DM rewards) and even then it’s only DM permitting.

You aren’t able to get a Nightmare through the spell. You can get one through an Infernal Tack, but even then you need to find an actual Nightmare and the only ones in the module are being ridden by Narzugon, sooo...yeah, gonna need DM buy-in again.

[da newt]

I'm happy to find out that what I heard was true, isn't.

Where can I find this in black and white?

[Sigreid]

If you think your players are up to it, remember that all the devils are intelligent with literally centuries of war experience with a brutal and powerful enemy. They shouldn't be idiots.

[carrdrivesyou]

The big thing(for me) is that when you get to Avernus, the module sets out two "paths" for the PCs to take. I advise setting things up so the PCs don't have to stick to the one path in order to find the Bleeding Citadel(If there are Critical Role fans in the party, they might want to check out Arkhan's Tower independently of anything else)..

If the PCs get some cool goodies on their war machines, set up an encounter where they'll get to show them off.

This is a big "Your Milage May Vary" but I found that keeping tabs on Lulu to be a bit of a pain, so I had the party find her imprisoned in a gem. She could still communicate and provide plot relevant information, but she wouldn't be as big a drain on resources and I didn't have to deal with an extra stealth check or another initiative roll.

Emphasis added for drama. LULU IS JUST THE WORST IMO. This is actually a solid solution.

[xroads]

The big thing(for me) is that when you get to Avernus, the module sets out two "paths" for the PCs to take. I advise setting things up so the PCs don't have to stick to the one path in order to find the Bleeding Citadel(If there are Critical Role fans in the party, they might want to check out Arkhan's Tower independently of anything else).

One of my big concerns is that my players won't want to explore at all. Between the milestone xp system and the fact that they're literally in hell, they may feel discouraged to get off of the tracks.



If you think your players are up to it, remember that all the devils are intelligent with literally centuries of war experience with a brutal and powerful enemy. They shouldn't be idiots.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.


I'm happy to find out that what I heard was true, isn't.

Where can I find this in black and white?

It's in the module. It's near where they describe Avernus and optional environmental effects.

Cosmetic or not, I have different ideas than the book. I'll probably just describe any conjured critter as being particularly fiendish in appearance.


Emphasis added for drama. LULU IS JUST THE WORST IMO. This is actually a solid solution.

I haven't read Lulu's entry yet, but I gather Lulu acts like a Disney animal companion hyped up on caffeine?

I'll keep what you said in mind. But I got to admit, there is a part of me that looks forward to inflicting her on my players. Mua Ha Ha Ha! :biggrin:

:roach::roach:

[carrdrivesyou]

Lulu is every Lawful Stupid paladin trope multiplied; then added to the annoying Disney animal tagalong trope. She is a blend of obnoxious and annoying. So you're spot on.

[MrStabby]

Lulu is every Lawful Stupid paladin trope multiplied; then added to the annoying Disney animal tagalong trope. She is a blend of obnoxious and annoying. So you're spot on.

I don't want to play this adventure anymore.

[carrdrivesyou]

I don't want to play this adventure anymore.

It's a great module, just gotta ditch the dodo first. Not too difficult really. just wait til about level 5.

[MrStabby]

It's a great module, just gotta ditch the dodo first. Not too difficult really. just wait til about level 5.

What kind of check is it to find an appropriate ditch to bury a corpse in?

[da newt]

Perception to find any old 'ditch' - Investigation to find a ditch where she will never be found ...

[Hail Tempus]

As written, Lulu isn't a "lawful good stupid" character.

Some DMs probably overplay it, and there's a certain portion of the D&D fanbase that can't accept that not all NPCs and PCs are mindless murder machines. Like real life, there are people in the D&D world who are highly good, loyal, with a strong moral code.

[carrdrivesyou]

As written, Lulu isn't a "lawful good stupid" character.

Some DMs probably overplay it, and there's a certain portion of the D&D fanbase that can't accept that not all NPCs and PCs are mindless murder machines. Like real life, there are people in the D&D world who are highly good, loyal, with a strong moral code.

The module, as I have seen, basically paints her to be absolutely stupid and lacking of any strategic thinking. She doesn't seem to have any sense of forethought at all. She has gotten herself kidnapped, fell into the River Styx, can't think clearly, and puts herself in the line of danger more than she needs to. I thought this was the DM being himself, it is not.

I did not mean to imply that she was lawful stupid in the sense of the comedic and stereotypical paladin sense, but more along the lines of just being a stupid, panicky animal that constantly throws a wrench in our plans.

[Rhiarion]

After what I've read above, I don't believe the following is a spoiler - but to be cautious.


Lulu has water from the River Styx poured on her, she didn't fall in. And later on when you see her in her fully restored form it may change some of the negativity above.

And I'm surprised people must just play NPCs/things straight from the book, without altering it to suit their story, and their players.

If someone ran her another way, other than slowly regaining her memories as the plot progresses, more fool them.

[Willie the Duck]

In a few weeks I'll be running Descent Into Avernus for my gaming group. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions? Things to avoid? Things not to forget?

I don't know how far you have gotten, but there are a few really challenging encounters at very early level which really test the party's ability to handle. In both cases, they can get help or otherwise mitigate the risk, but if your group is more 'let's just forge ahead and see what the challenge is' then there could be some significant character deaths (or even TPKs) before you even get to Avernus.

[Bubzors]

I am also in the hating on Lulu boat. She is written as a goody two-shoes who hates when a player even contemplates something remotely evil. This in a campaign where it is built around the party making deals with devils, or using a machine that LITERALLY EATS SOULS FOR FUEL! WoTC obviously want you to use the warmachines as they spent a lot of pages on rules, and have whole encounters around it. However they glossed over the fact it is powered on souls and in no way shape or form would the stupid flying elephant be OK with it.

My party is still in chapter 1, but I plan on doing a lot of rework on chapter 3, and throwing away the Lulu character entirely. Instead I am going to use a shard of the sword of Zariel or something along those lines. Some magical artifact to give the players a cool item, and something that can also help nudge in the right direction if the party gets too lost.

Here are some other tips I have found so far:

I love Baldur's Gate, and the Gazetteer gives a bunch of cool information to play with. However, if you play the adventure as written it just comes off as week and silly. The hook and intro are terrible in my opinion.

The adventure also never uses the dark secret it wants you to make at the beginning. I therefore redid the whole beginning. My players chose a robbery gone wrong as the dark secret, and I had Captain Zodge witness them escape. Instead of turning them in, he basically black mails the party, pocketing it for a future favor.

I also wanted to introduce Reya earlier, and have the party witness the fall of Elturel. So I threw away the entire first encounter in the Elfsong Tavern, and had the PCs do a small adventure to Elturel. The reasoning behind it was that they were skipping town for a bit to let the heat die down from the botched robbery. While in Elturel I had them interact with Reya, whom the party took an immediate liking to. Then as they were boarding a boat on their way back to BG, they witness the fall of Elturel.

This way it feels a bit more personal that Elturel fell, and they first hand know what could happen to BG if it isn't stopped.

I recommend on making the investigation into the Dead Three a little more dynamic. Instead of instantly being led to the Dungeon of the Dead Three (DoDT), they had to track down clues across the city, including visiting the Smiling board cafe, Hamhocks Slaughterhouse, the sewers or whatever else floats your boat. This allows you to use a little more of the Gazetteer in the adventure and flesh out BG even more.

Now onto the DoDT. Whoa baby, I do not know what the designers were thinking, having this dungeon for a level 2 party. I purposely had my players level to 3 before the dungeon, and they still had 1 PC die. This dungeon is crazy difficult. Two major changes I would make is have Flennis not have fireball prepared. As written she has two... which is a sure death sentence for a level 2 party. I just got rid of her level 3 spells and instead gave her two more skeleton companions to round it out.

Also Vaas is a ridiculously hard fight, even with Mortlock on your side. He hits like a damn truck, and can down a full HP PC in one round if lucky on the rolls. I recommend lowering the Unstoppable from 3 times a day to just 1. This allows him to still seem badass, without allowing him to stick around long enough to kill the party.

The rest of the chapter is pretty good as written. I just threw in a few more side things from the Gazetteer to flesh it out. One other change I would recommend is to make the fight personal. I had Duke Vanthampur kidnap one of the players family member which they were using to threaten the party into stopping. This led them to want to kidnap Amrik, as they could use him as a bargaining chip when they entered the villa.

Last thing is I love the shield of the Hidden Lord. The party paladin loves the powerful shield and only is now starting to realize that there may be something wrong with it. I played up Gargauth insinuating he is a trapped angel. I also am going to change that the lady in Candle Keep does not immediately spoil the fun. As written she immediately tells the party it is an evil artifact. I want the chance of corrupting the paladin's soul to continue a little longer.

Not much here I would change honestly. I like how it is written in general. Only major thing to look out for is to how the party will get down from Elturel. This is left open ended by the book, but I find it kind of weak. I would suggest giving some hints or possibilites to distract the battle below to allow for escape.

Make sure to drive home how ****ed this whole city is, and though survivors are holding out, if something isn't done soon they will be lost.

I find that the whole chapter 3 is full of great encounters and ideas, but structured terribly. They choose one of two arbitrary paths and from there its just one long series of fetch quests. Screw that.

I haven't finalized anything on this yet, but I plan on making it a bit more open ended. Instead of following one vision after another from Lulu, I will give them multiple options, where they can weigh the benefits of going to each place.

I also plan on having Bel play a bigger role in the adventure. He seems under utilized. He cannot directly go against Zariel, but he will do his damnedest to nudge this fledgling group of adventurers towards things that can help them, and in return weaken Zariel. He has a vested interest in seeing the players succeed and Zariel lose.

With this in mind, I plan on having other NPCs and devils be recruitable to help fight to save Elturel. At certain points through either devil deals or just normal ones, they can recruit powerful creatures to help Elturel hang on just a bit longer. This way the party can feel they are still helping Elturel survive as they galavant across the Avernus wasteland.

I am a big proponent of having the players never feel truly safe in Avernus. I am debating on using a house rule that during every long rest they must make a Con save or suffer a level of exhaustion while they are out traveling the wasteland. The only places they can safely and comfortably rest is either at the wandering emporium, Fort Knucklebones, High hall in Elturel, or possibly Mordenkainen's tower. Hopefully this will press the players to make deals with Mahadi or other devils just for a reprieve.

Last thing, warmachines. These things are awesome. Use them, and the other warlords; have them show up at the most inconvenient time. I feel like they are going to make great encounters

When my party gets closer to this section I probably will put up a post with more details on what I decided to do with this chapter.

As for chapters 4 and 5, I have to reread them to give more tips. My party is still a while off before they get to them anyway.

Hope this helpls.

[carrdrivesyou]

I find that the whole chapter 3 is full of great encounters and ideas, but structured terribly. They choose one of two arbitrary paths and from there its just one long series of fetch quests. Screw that.

I haven't finalized anything on this yet, but I plan on making it a bit more open ended. Instead of following one vision after another from Lulu, I will give them multiple options, where they can weigh the benefits of going to each place.

I also plan on having Bel play a bigger role in the adventure. He seems under utilized. He cannot directly go against Zariel, but he will do his damnedest to nudge this fledgling group of adventurers towards things that can help them, and in return weaken Zariel. He has a vested interest in seeing the players succeed and Zariel lose.

With this in mind, I plan on having other NPCs and devils be recruitable to help fight to save Elturel. At certain points through either devil deals or just normal ones, they can recruit powerful creatures to help Elturel hang on just a bit longer. This way the party can feel they are still helping Elturel survive as they galavant across the Avernus wasteland.

I am a big proponent of having the players never feel truly safe in Avernus. I am debating on using a house rule that during every long rest they must make a Con save or suffer a level of exhaustion while they are out traveling the wasteland. The only places they can safely and comfortably rest is either at the wandering emporium, Fort Knucklebones, High hall in Elturel, or possibly Mordenkainen's tower. Hopefully this will press the players to make deals with Mahadi or other devils just for a reprieve.

Last thing, warmachines. These things are awesome. Use them, and the other warlords; have them show up at the most inconvenient time. I feel like they are going to make great encounters

When my party gets closer to this section I probably will put up a post with more details on what I decided to do with this chapter.

Some good ideas here. Exhaustion would make a lot of sense without magical assistance, and just randomly catching a fireball while resting in the blasted landscape is just thematically called for. It eats resources like spell slots and hit dice to recover from, CAN pose a threat shortly after arrival, and just fits the idea of what is going on.
More story spoilers here:

Utilizing Bel as a sort of quest giver would be pretty smart. Honestly not sure why he isn't the one helping the party anyways. It would make sense that he would hold a grudge, and would want his throne back. Devils are scheming and calculated, it would be a huge deal to someone like him to look for opportunities.

Also, based on what the book says, how in the crap did Lulu: a) survive ALONE in hell
OR
b) make FRIENDS with LE creatures and those of obviously ill intent?

Honestly, I am not sure WotC thought out the idea of having a being of pure good go along for a trip through hell. Even in her flavor text, she is described as "unwilling to abide an evil act." Like, it makes no sense that anyone but Mahadi would have tolerated her presence, and he only did it to gain favor with Zariel. I cannot believe that Maggie would have allowed the kenku mechanics to help her, or at least not try to corrupt and/or kill her for potion ingredients (hollyphant tusks are called out specifically as ingredients for potions of longevity).

[balluga]

One thing the party I was in struggled with was motivation to go to hell. The adventure is set up in such a way that a party in the first part may want nothing to do with being in hell, and a party that wants to save the world may not have been caught up in the first part of the adventure. This caused one person to change characters because they didn't fit in with the current part of the adventure and a lot of in character discussion about if we would want to go to hell. Find out what your group wants and maybe modify the adventure at the start to fit their style.

Another thing to play up is that a certain devil trapped in an object can also talk (and see) many of the creatures the party encounters and may use it to their advantage, if necessary.

I would also drop hints about the ending / freeing from service to avoid what happened in my group where one character refused to hand over the object, and ruining any chances for redemption. To be fair, their character didn't know what needed to be done, even though it was lightly hinted at.

[Bubzors]

Some good ideas here. Exhaustion would make a lot of sense without magical assistance, and just randomly catching a fireball while resting in the blasted landscape is just thematically called for. It eats resources like spell slots and hit dice to recover from, CAN pose a threat shortly after arrival, and just fits the idea of what is going on.
More story spoilers here:

Utilizing Bel as a sort of quest giver would be pretty smart. Honestly not sure why he isn't the one helping the party anyways. It would make sense that he would hold a grudge, and would want his throne back. Devils are scheming and calculated, it would be a huge deal to someone like him to look for opportunities.

Also, based on what the book says, how in the crap did Lulu: a) survive ALONE in hell
OR
b) make FRIENDS with LE creatures and those of obviously ill intent?

Honestly, I am not sure WotC thought out the idea of having a being of pure good go along for a trip through hell. Even in her flavor text, she is described as "unwilling to abide an evil act." Like, it makes no sense that anyone but Mahadi would have tolerated her presence, and he only did it to gain favor with Zariel. I cannot believe that Maggie would have allowed the kenku mechanics to help her, or at least not try to corrupt and/or kill her for potion ingredients (hollyphant tusks are called out specifically as ingredients for potions of longevity).

Couldnt agree more. Seems they wrote all this unrelated one off encounters in avernus, and then realized they had to tie it together some how. And bam you get Lulu, where she is unwanted and doesnt belong. Not well thought out at all

[Avonar]

I am honestly surprised by all the Lulu hate. My party fell in love with her. Just a sweet little elephant that desperately wants to help. Just make sure that you can have her chastise the party for doing evil/not-good things, but never make her actually stop them. Let the party have their freedom.

My main tip is to set up a good Dark Secret at the beginning. We ended up with a kind of bad one that really did very little to make the party feel like a group.

Also, don't let the party just make devil contracts for everything, make them a big deal. And don't offer them to that one player who just wants to make a deal for the hell of it, damn the story.

[Willie the Duck]

I am honestly surprised by all the Lulu hate. My party fell in love with her. Just a sweet little elephant that desperately wants to help. Just make sure that you can have her chastise the party for doing evil/not-good things, but never make her actually stop them. Let the party have their freedom.

Ah, but there's the explanation--this is running headlong into a long-held tradition of seeing LG outsiders as purity-purging somethingerothers more onerous to deal with than demons or devils. :smalltongue:

[carrdrivesyou]

I am honestly surprised by all the Lulu hate. My party fell in love with her. Just a sweet little elephant that desperately wants to help. Just make sure that you can have her chastise the party for doing evil/not-good things, but never make her actually stop them. Let the party have their freedom.

My main tip is to set up a good Dark Secret at the beginning. We ended up with a kind of bad one that really did very little to make the party feel like a group.QUOTE]

Our group actually all collaborated on the Dark Secret, but all of those died save for the warlock who took the shield. Additionally, my rogue is now the only surviving party member that had been in the Vanthampur estate, or has any knowledge of Thavius Kreeg. He is the only one who really knows what is going on in "the big picture." I do admit, that is a solid way of getting a party to gel if done right. See the answers for Lulu hate below...

[QUOTE=Willie the Duck;24376228]Ah, but there's the explanation--this is running headlong into a long-held tradition of seeing LG outsiders as purity-purging somethingerothers more onerous to deal with than demons or devils. :smalltongue:

As for the Lulu hate, it isn't because of her being a lawful good aligned creature. The problem is that she just doesn't fit. Gargauth would have been a far more interesting guide, and more appropriate to the theme of the module, at least IMO. Lulu is a sweet and adorable little trumpet gal, but as far as I can tell, if she dies, the party is up the creek in terms of knowing what is ACTUALLY going on. Considering her stat block...once you get to hell, she's more or less flying target practice for anything that isn't an imp or lemure. She would be a high value target for ALL fiends; speaking of, Elturel is floating above a massive battle below. combat ready fiends would likely detect her. She is significantly less potent that most celestials, and yet the Demon Zapper contains a more powerful one. So it makes zero sense as to why she could have flapped her happy butt around hell without being captured. After about 6th level, it becomes the world's longest fetch quest and escort mission chain.

I have seen several homebrew fixes for this to include:
1. Replacing Lulu with Reya or Gargauth
2. Turning Lulu into a shard of Zariel's sword or armor
3. Having her be corrupted into an imp, but not necessarily an evil one
4. Removing her entirely, and giving her knowledge to the NPCs like Mahadi and Maggie.

[Willie the Duck]

As for the Lulu hate, it isn't because of her being a lawful good aligned creature.

I was responding to the statement, "Just make sure that you can have her chastise the party for doing evil/not-good things, but never make her actually stop them. Let the party have their freedom."


The problem is that she just doesn't fit. ... After about 6th level, it becomes the world's longest fetch quest and escort mission chain.


For some reason, I get the impression that this is fairly deliberate, and the designers thought that fetch quests and escort missions were more well-loved than they actually are. I agree that other options are probably a good idea in many cases.

[carrdrivesyou]

I was responding to the statement, "Just make sure that you can have her chastise the party for doing evil/not-good things, but never make her actually stop them. Let the party have their freedom."



For some reason, I get the impression that this is fairly deliberate, and the designers thought that fetch quests and escort missions were more well-loved than they actually are. I agree that other options are probably a good idea in many cases.

My bad bud. I misunderstood ya! :)

And honestly, I would think a single fetch quest per module would be more than enough...