Avernus Problem (SPOILERS)

[carrdrivesyou]

So I joined a group to play through this mod a couple months back. So far, we are making solid progress, and things are bumping along nicely, at least from most perspectives. The DM and the other players are fantastic, and quite frankly, I will be a bit sad when this group ends. But I do have one glaring issue in this campaign: LULU.

That's right, the frickin hollyphant. I am all for escort missions and having interesting NPC tagalongs, but she has got to be the most obnoxious thing I have ever seen. Hats off to the DM, who plays her like a boss. What bothers me is that she is sickeningly cute and righteous. My rogue (just a TN thief type with a very passive and helpful attitude) and the sorcerer (neutral good with wild magic) agree that she is more of a hindrance than a help, considering that she constantly drains party resources by leading us on wild hell goose chases, and even managed to get herself kidnapped by a frickin hell wasp.

She's cute, she's cuddly, she's...downright annoying (in character and out). Has anyone else run into this issue with her? Am I the only one that just wants to misuse my Shadow Blade spell and sneak attack against the Hollyphant? Or am I just being weird?

[jaappleton]

Lulu needs some serious plot armor, IMO.

It’s fine to run her as needing assistance from time to time but to need to heal her and such (and otherwise drain party resources) all the time is a bad route to go, if you ask me.

It makes her a massive hinderance. Unfortunately the book doesn’t really tell anyone how to deal with her. Just that she tags along and is important.

No advice on how to deal with combat, or if she interacts in battles, or to even give her plot armor....

[Bel-Torac]

She's a part of the story to help guide you through hell and make it less doom and gloom. She shouldn't be getting in the middle of combat and should just be there to buff and stay in the back. Your party should tell her so.

If she dies, the adventure will just continue without her. It may be a little tougher though...

[carrdrivesyou]

She's a part of the story to help guide you through hell and make it less doom and gloom. She shouldn't be getting in the middle of combat and should just be there to buff and stay in the back. Your party should tell her so.

If she dies, the adventure will just continue without her. It may be a little tougher though...

Well the issue that comes up is that in the fights she IS in, she just trumpets her way along, mostly taking care of the mooks. She only has a handful of actual kills though, just softens them up for us. The real issue is less of a logistics issue, and more of a "she feels unnatural in the party" type thing.

I guess I can't really pin down what makes me dislike her so much, other than being sickeningly "GOOD." As in alignment good. It's like being in a party that consist of super interesting characters, plus Lulu. I am unsure how to really deal with her, other than to either eliminate her (much to the chagrin and likely violent reaction from her and the party), or to just let her be and let her off herself in the process.

Maybe I just don't get the point of this module?

[jaappleton]

Well the issue that comes up is that in the fights she IS in, she just trumpets her way along, mostly taking care of the mooks. She only has a handful of actual kills though, just softens them up for us. The real issue is less of a logistics issue, and more of a "she feels unnatural in the party" type thing.

I guess I can't really pin down what makes me dislike her so much, other than being sickeningly "GOOD." As in alignment good. It's like being in a party that consist of super interesting characters, plus Lulu. I am unsure how to really deal with her, other than to either eliminate her (much to the chagrin and likely violent reaction from her and the party), or to just let her be and let her off herself in the process.

Maybe I just don't get the point of this module?

If you knew what she was, you’d see why she’s so sickeningly good.

Like more good than the Lawful Stupid Paladin trope sort of good.

If you don’t know what / who she is, really think about the module and what I just said, and why she might be there.

It should click.

[GreyBlack]

You could just kill her. It won't stop the plot and it might put an end to the annoyance. Also, you can taste what Hollyphant tastes like.

The plot won't end if she dies. You should totally just do it.

Yes, I'm well aware of what I'm advocating for. I'm running Avernus myself right now. I also am curious what would happen and how the game would change. I am a lawful evil DM.

[carrdrivesyou]

If you knew what she was, you’d see why she’s so sickeningly good.

Like more good than the Lawful Stupid Paladin trope sort of good.

If you don’t know what / who she is, really think about the module and what I just said, and why she might be there.

It should click.

I'm aware on a meta level, at least for the most part. She just seems so...forced. Half the party is on board with going back and getting Reya instead. The only thing preventing it is the lack of transport to a specific place at the moment. We COULD banish ourselves, but we have no reliable way BACK.

To be honest, I don't think I've ever intentionally tried to get into HELL before.

[Hail Tempus]

So I joined a group to play through this mod a couple months back. So far, we are making solid progress, and things are bumping along nicely, at least from most perspectives. The DM and the other players are fantastic, and quite frankly, I will be a bit sad when this group ends. But I do have one glaring issue in this campaign: LULU.

That's right, the frickin hollyphant. I am all for escort missions and having interesting NPC tagalongs, but she has got to be the most obnoxious thing I have ever seen. Hats off to the DM, who plays her like a boss. What bothers me is that she is sickeningly cute and righteous. My rogue (just a TN thief type with a very passive and helpful attitude) and the sorcerer (neutral good with wild magic) agree that she is more of a hindrance than a help, considering that she constantly drains party resources by leading us on wild hell goose chases, and even managed to get herself kidnapped by a frickin hell wasp.

She's cute, she's cuddly, she's...downright annoying (in character and out). Has anyone else run into this issue with her? Am I the only one that just wants to misuse my Shadow Blade spell and sneak attack against the Hollyphant? Or am I just being weird? What's wrong with Lulu? She's good, is loyal to her friends and is willing to stand up to the forces of evil. She's the type of person who would throw herself between a pack of demons and fleeing children. She has many, many redeeming qualities (moreso than many PC's, frankly).

Not every D&D party is a bunch of edgelord anti-hero murder-hobos (not that there's anything wrong with that). And Descent into Avernus is a module that would be a great fit for a party interested in being the Big Damn Heroes who rescue a whole city full of people from a fate worse than death.

And without spoilering too much, not having Lulu along with the party makes things harder for the party over the module, and eliminates a number of options.

[carrdrivesyou]

What's wrong with Lulu? She's good, is loyal to her friends and is willing to stand up to the forces of evil. She's the type of person who would throw herself between a pack of demons and fleeing children. She has many, many redeeming qualities (moreso than many PC's, frankly).

Not every D&D party is a bunch of edgelord anti-hero murder-hobos (not that there's anything wrong with that). And Descent into Avernus is a module that would be a great fit for a party interested in being the Big Damn Heroes who rescue a whole city full of people from a fate worse than death.

And without spoilering too much, not having Lulu along with the party makes things harder for the party over the module, and eliminates a number of options.

Nothing wrong in the "normal" sense of a party of adventurers. Even with a shady rogue or questionably moral wizard. She's just...inconvenient, for lack of a better term. I get that she is a large part of the module and all that, but considering she was the war mount of an angel, and was surrounded by capable warriors and soldiers, I would think she would be a bit more tempered and level headed. She should have better tactical sense than the frickin rogue with a decent INT score. But I have yet to see that. Instead, she insists on destroying the evils found, even when hopelessly outmatched.

[Hail Tempus]

Instead, she insists on destroying the evils found, even when hopelessly outmatched. Hmmm... I'm preparing to run the module, and the DM section giving advice on how to run Lulu doesn't require her to mindlessly charge into the fray against evil, as far as I can recall. She's brave, but not suicidal. This sounds like a DM decision to play her a certain way.

The party should just tell Lulu to stay back during combat and play a support rule. She should generally be deferential to the party, and one of the proposed approaches is to let a player run her (within reason).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Hmmm... I'm preparing to run the module, and the DM section giving advice on how to run Lulu doesn't require her to mindlessly charge into the fray against evil, as far as I can recall. She's brave, but not suicidal. This sounds like a DM decision to play her a certain way.

The party should just tell Lulu to stay back during combat and play a support rule. She should generally be deferential to the party, and one of the proposed approaches is to let a player run her (within reason).
Yeah, I was worried reading through the topic since I'm planning on DM'ing this soon and I don't want my players to get saddled with something unfun, but what's being described doesn't wholly mesh with the descriptions in the book. So I guess my lesson is to *not* let Lulu charge the front lines.

Actually, I might just hand off controlling her in combat to another LG-type. Let her respect a chain of command with the players, do what she can to help out in-and-out of combat in whatever way they feel they need. I can see how even a good DM could accidentally make her annoying by jerking the party around, gotta avoid that.

...Which doesn't help cardrivesyou's predicament at all, of course. For you, I'd say just enjoy the snark potential? Think of it like a sitcom. This is potentially a deep well of zingers and deadpan deliveries. She'll make things more challenging, but hey, that's just more game. Spend time during combat thinking of what hilarious snipe you'll throw out once the dust settles. You're going to end up with the best quotes of the game.

[Envyus]

My party likes her.

Like she is very helpful her anti spell field and absurdly high fly speed have been helpful.

[Sigreid]

If you dont like her, but the party does, you dont need to help her but dont interfere if they do. If no one likes her, let her die.

[carrdrivesyou]

If you dont like her, but the party does, you dont need to help her but dont interfere if they do. If no one likes her, let her die.

This is my plan. But as the only sneaky boi in the group, the temptation to give false information to the group is ever present. I am resigned to being honest with them though, for the sake of not destroying a solid RP group.

[Sigreid]

This is my plan. But as the only sneaky boi in the group, the temptation to give false information to the group is ever present. I am resigned to being honest with them though, for the sake of not destroying a solid RP group.

Good. Usually you can be as shady as you want with NPCs, but it's a bad road to not be trustable by the people you risk life and limb with.