Another rant on pathfinder combat maneuvers (with a specific case)

[Selion]

As usual one of the most confounding rules I find in pathfinder 1E is how combat maneuvers interact with weapons.
I'm referring to this FAQ, the issue is an old one, but someone could still be unaware:


If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??

It depends on what combat maneuver you’re attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you’re attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you’re using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB ( Str instead of Dex).

The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.

https://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook#v5748eaic9ojt



I know some users think that rules are totally clear, but even monsters statblocks are sometimes inconsistent with them (E.G. https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u43b?How-do-size-bonusespenalties-influence-CMBCMD)

BTW, it's an old argument and a new topic wouldn't change any opinion, so let's examine a particular case, for which I need an actual answer.
I plan of using the Orc Skull Ram (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/orc-ram/) as a weapon for my next character, this peculiar weapon gives a free bull rush attempt anytime it scores a critical hit.
Here I just start having problems: it's quite obvious that the Bull Rush in this case is performed using the weapon, the previous FAQ states:
"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver"
I'd consider this case not a normal one (I'm using a ram to push things!), so I'd add the enhancement bonus and weapon focus feats to the bull rush roll.

There may be different opinions, but it's just the beginning, assuming the combat maneuver is performed using the weapon, things get worse.

- If i enchanted my Ram with the Impact (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Impact) special quality, would I add the enhancement bonus to bull rush attempts two times?

- Assuming I'd add a permanent enlarge persons on top of that (like any decent orc should, honestly) , how does it affect the bull rush roll? The size modifier to bull rush would just compensate the -1 size modifier to hit or it would just add up to the bab + strength + 2x enhancement bonus?


The actual case:
Str 18, raging -> str 22, enlarge person -> str 24
Dex 12 -> enlarge person, Dex 10
BAB +7

Using a +2 Impact Orc Ram and attempting a bull rush with a critical hit, what would the CMB be like?

Bonus Question: what about CMD? Size and Rage negative modifiers to AC should apply here?

[Kurald Galain]

You have a straightforward rules question, there's no need to put it in "OMG Paizo Suxx" charged language :smallamused:

Specific trumps general. Where normally bull rushes don't use a weapon, when you use the skull ram they do (because skull ram says so).

Bonuses don't stack with themselves, so you don't get the bonus twice, even with Impact. The point of impact is (1) bigger damage dice, and (2) you do get a bonus on bull rushes not involving the weapon, in case you want that.

Yes, enlarging gives +2 to CMB.

And yes, pretty much anything that affects AC also affects CMD; this includes size and rage.

HTH.

[Selion]

You have a straightforward rules question, there's no need to put it in "OMG Paizo Suxx" charged language :smallamused:


Ah, Paizo doesn't suxx at all, there are just a few rules in hundreds of pages of content that I don't like. Thanks for the answer.

[Psyren]

And yes, pretty much anything that affects AC also affects CMD; this includes size and rage.

^ Only thing I'll add to this solid post is that size is a special case, because it usually gets inverted. While getting bigger usually reduces AC (makes you easier to hit), it simultaneously increases CMD (you're more massive and thus harder to use maneuvers on.) Similarly, getting smaller increases AC and reduces CMD. Most other modifiers move in the same direction for both stats.

[upho]

Kurald and Psyren have already answered your questions, so I'll only add some clarifications and tips which will hopefully be useful for you in practice when it comes to builds using combat maneuvers.


I plan of using the Orc Skull Ram (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/orc-ram/) as a weapon for my next character, this peculiar weapon gives a free bull rush attempt anytime it scores a critical hit.
Here I just start having problems: it's quite obvious that the Bull Rush in this case is performed using the weapon, the previous FAQ states:
"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver"
I'd consider this case not a normal one (I'm using a ram to push things!), so I'd add the enhancement bonus and weapon focus feats to the bull rush roll.Yes, the bull rush is very much performed with the weapon in this case, which means that per default you also add all attack bonuses which apply to the weapon specifically (Weapon Focus, enhancement etc) also to the bull rush CMB. The same is btw true for your grapple CMB if you have a grab attack, while grapple is otherwise considered its own weapon in terms of weapon-related bonuses (you could have for example Weapon Focus (grapple), and your grapple CMB is per default not affected by any bonuses which apply to say your unarmed strikes or natural attacks specifically).


- If i enchanted my Ram with the Impact (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Impact) special quality, would I add the enhancement bonus to bull rush attempts two times?As mentioned, no, as the two wouldn't stack. I recommend leveraging (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Leveraging) instead, which adds double the enhancement bonus to your bull rush CMB per default. I also recommend the pauldrons of the bull (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Pauldrons%20of %20the%20Bull) for bull rushing, even if it may cost you x 1.5 to add the staple resistance bonuses in the same slot.

In the same vein, you may want to look into reposition and/or trip combos as well, since a dueling (PSFG) (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) weapon combined with leveraging gives you an enhancement and luck bonus to reposition and trip CMB totaling no less than six times the weapon's enhancement bonus. So yes, for example a raging barbarian or bloodrager wielding a +5 dueling furious leveraging weapon would get a net total +42(!) bonus from that weapon to reposition CMB (if the weapon has the "trip" special weapon feature) and to trip CMB (with any weapon).


- Assuming I'd add a permanent enlarge persons on top of that (like any decent orc should, honestly) , how does it affect the bull rush roll? The size modifier to bull rush would just compensate the -1 size modifier to hit or it would just add up to the bab + strength + 2x enhancement bonus?As Psyren said, size bonuses/penalties to attack are inversed for CMB/D. So:
Str 18, raging -> str 22, enlarge person -> str 24
Dex 12 -> enlarge person, Dex 10
BAB +7

Using a +2 Impact Orc Ram and attempting a bull rush with a critical hit, what would the CMB be like?Your bull rush CMB would in this case be +15 (7 bab, 7 str, 2 enhancement (regardless of impact), 1 size, -2 rage).

If you change impact to leveraging and add say a 2k COWPIW (cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder) for Weapon Focus (orc skull ram), you'd instead get a CMB of +18 (7 bab, 7 str, 1 Weapon Focus, 4 enhancement leveraging, 1 size, -2 rage). If you also add furious for an additional +1 cost, you'd get a CMB of +22.

Note also that your CMB for any bull rushes you make during a turn in which you use Power Attack also takes the Power Attack penalty. On the other hand, if you also get an option which allows you to deal damage with your bull rushes (such as Raging Throw and/or Merciless Rush), per RAW the Power Attack bonus - and quite a few other damage bonuses/riders - will also apply to that damage since bull rush is a melee attack which then deals damage. So if damage is of interest, such options are typically very strong.

And speaking of very strong, you might also want to get the unexpected strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/unexpected-strike-ex) rage power at 8th, as that means the bull rush movement also provokes an AoO from you. It's also worth considering the Demonic Style chain for Demonic Slaughter, which may let you get more out of your bull rush investments and can make your charges quite lethal also without pounce, and pounces absolutely bonkers devastating (on top of giving your charges a bit of melee control and multi-target damage). A few levels later, it's probably a good idea to abandon the orc ram for a reach weapon in the monk group (or any weapon with the Versatile (monk group) weapon mod), Ascetic Style and a pair of Giant Fist Gauntlets (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Giant%20Fist%2 0Gauntlets), allowing you to make free bull rushes on every hit. Combined with pounce and Demonic Slaughter, you can start using TPR (as in "Tarrasques Per Round") instead of DPR if/when calculating your damage potential... :smallbiggrin:

There are also several other good or great bull rush options/combos, and in most games it's possible to get around the maneuver's default limitations enough to get amazing use out of it (with for example the Snowstride (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Snowstride) trait), reliably giving both you and your allies tons of extra AoO triggers, along with extra free/swift attacks and several additional damage instances and control rider effects.

Just keep in mind that in order to maintain and increase the value of these options, as is the case for most combat maneuvers, it's normally a waste to dabble but potentially fantastic if you go all-in. And considering how feat intense most combos are, I recommend you also try to make the most out of training weapons. (Btw, the one related option I really recommend you don't try to build around is the Shield Slam feat, since it uses your relatively worthless attack bonus instead of your bull rush CMB which should be much higher. Get a Tempest Shield instead.)

HTH!

[Kurald Galain]

Oh right, if we're talking specific Bull Rush builds, then I recommend a one- or two-level dip into Siegebreaker. One level lets you bull rush without provoking, and deal automatic damage; the second tacks on a free overrun on any bull rush, again with automatic damage.