Tank/Control Cleric

[MrStabby]

Master and Commander Cleric

I am going to be starting a new game in a few months, where for a change I won't be DM. I decided I wanted to play a controller, one of my favourite types of character and I am leaning towards a cleric with a wizard dip. Expected campaign is between levels 1 and 11. I would be interested in views on my plan.

My current plan is as follows

Stats:

Str 5
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 8

A potentially fun array with some great strengths and great weaknesses. What race to use is tough to decide. Hill Dwarf and Variant Human seem good although Firbolg also caught my eye. V.Human is probably top of the list though. The two +1s to go into boosting Int and Dex.

For the feat I pick Warcaster

I kick things off with Order Cleric. This gives me some nice support abilities for the party to give them extra attacks, gets me access to healing, buffing, inflict wounds if I need to bring some pain but most importantly command. By walking up to someone before causing them to waste two turns fleeing (then returning) I get to cast a further spell on them as an attack of opportunity. Sure, toll the dead isnt as much damage as a weapon attack at this level but wis saves tend to stick and its just a bonus as a reaction on a control ability.

Second level continues. The channel divinity lets me make enemies drop weapons on a failed wisdom save... unless they are undead or can't be charmed. I pick up turn undead this level anyway so not too worried about the limitations. Dropping their weapons isn't such a big deal unless we can pick them up though. Even if we just kick them away itis an opportunity attack to wander off and pick them up.

Third level picks up Wizard. There are three main features here. Booming blade (to go with the command and all the forced movement fun). Not only is it more warcaster damage but command should let me trigger the rider as well. Find familiar (to swoop in and pick up the weapons dropped from the channel divinity). Protective spells like shield as I want to mix it up in melee. More rituals and a tiny bit more spell power is nice too.

Fourth level is back to cleric. Level 2 spells. Otherwise nothing too exciting

Fifth level gets me an ASI. Cap Wisdom. As importantly boosts cantrip damage. Mainline attacks and attacks of opportunity are boosted. I don't think I will mind not having 3rd level cleric spells so much here as spells like hold person and command do very nicely when upcast. Gives me animate dead as I am too weak to carry my own stuff.

Sixth level is where the multiclass hurts. Nevertheless level 3 cleric spells are nice (ubiquitous spirit guardians I guess). Area control seems on theme. Certainly I can hurt people who try to leave the area of effect now. Command is obviously still at the forefront of my mind - depending on the table ruling on "directly harmful" command might let me force people into the area of effect. Even better if I can throw a gold piece down and tell them to "fetch" to trigger spirit guardians twice.

Level 7 gets me order cleric 6. Being able to cast enchantments as a bonus action is nice: hold person followed by a booming blade to the face isn't the nastiest thing in the game but it's pretty solid. General buffing from bless whilst still being able to use actions is nice. Of course it all comes back to command: Hit someone with booming blade, as a bonus action command them to run. On their turn they run, triggering booming blade and triggering an attack... which can be a spell through warcaster, which can be another booming blade... which they still trigger the secondary effects of. In reality I will be wanting to pick the cantrip for the target. With only a 16 in my attack stat sometimes a save spell will be better - at least I have the choice. Also I get to make enemies drop their weapons through the CD twice per short rest now.

Level 8... more cleric. Banishment is that good and gives me spells that target something other than wisdom.

Level 9 is a tough choice between cleric an wizard. The next few levels of cleric spells are fine... but not quite what I am looking for with the character. Still both give me spell slots for upcasting spells. Cleric does givemean ASI and d8 extra damage on my attacks though (but sadly not reaction attacks unless the recent UA is used) ASI could take dex to 18. I think that I will take wizard here. Wizard will give me a school. Necromancy, Divination, War and Bladesinger (if DM permits) are the obvious candidates. Necromancy will keep my HP topped up - the need for this may depend on party composition. Divination's portent ability is always nice to have and can provide new ways to support the party. War makes me a bit tougher and hopefully will also help with concentration saves - being stuck with cantrips till the end of my next turn might be a tiny bit of a pain though. Bladesinger is a bit less good with my modest Int but it is pretty closely aligned with what I would want.

Level 10 would be whatever I didn't take at level 9

Level 11 Can give me access to level 5 cleric spells or level 2 wizard spells. I am not feeling that the lack of higher level spells will be a pain as the spells I have upcast so well. The choice here may depend of if there is another arcane caster in the party. See invisibility, enlarge/reduce could be useful. Frankly I am expecting the campaign to end around here. Possibly I could just take a level of rogue. D6 extra damage a couple of times per turn, some skill expertise...

Level 12 If we reach here then I would probably be regretting not going arcane trickster instead of wizard. If I thought that the campaign would go for longer I would use arcane trickster instead of wizard.



So I have two more specific questions: is there a better time to take the wizard levels, and if GGtR is allowed (as mechanical content rather than fluff), what are the thoughts on guild backgrounds that might be appropriate/add stuff to this? Azorious seems on theme, with a large overlap. No support/control caster ever said not to counterspell though. Gruul gives conjure animals and Izzet gives animate objects for obscene attacks of opportunity - seems a little cheesy though and might not even work well with some BPS resistances. Rakdos has fear, haste and dissonant whispers - of which fear is probably the one that feels like it is missing.

[Admael]

You're gonna need at least INT 13 if you wanna dip into wizard.

[bendking]

Easy, look at the Arcana Frontliner Cleric here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

No multi-classing needed.

[MrStabby]

You're gonna need at least INT 13 if you wanna dip into wizard.

There is int 13. It's where one of the +1s from v human goes.

[micahaphone]

I know you want warcaster, but with Order clerics getting heavy armor but not martial weapons, I'd be tempted to take hill dwarf to use heavy armor without a movement penalty. The bonus HP is great for a tank, too. You can still go for warcaster later, or pick up Observant for a +1 wis, putting you at 20 wis then.

[MrStabby]

Easy, look at the Arcana Frontliner Cleric here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

No multi-classing needed.

Unfortunately this game is at a high optimisation table so I am looking for something with a little more... omph.

Unfortunately raw arcana cleric whilst good, would need a few more tricks.


I know you want warcaster, but with Order clerics getting heavy armor but not martial weapons, I'd be tempted to take hill dwarf to use heavy armor without a movement penalty. The bonus HP is great for a tank, too. You can still go for warcaster later, or pick up Observant for a +1 wis, putting you at 20 wis then.

I really, really feel this. I do want that heavy armour - not only is it useful but also cool. The problem is that we are only playing to the mid levels and I want to play with the cool toys on the way up, not just at the end.

If I go dwarf I have to swap stats about or else I postpone wizard and booming blade. So with dwarf I lose warcaster at level 1, then I need the ASI at 4 to pick up that point of int... leaving dex at 15, rather modest +2 to the attack stat for booming blade. Then warcaster at 9... the whole thing just seems too late. Booming blade then only come on at level 5 then (not too bad as this is when the cantrip upgrade happens). All in all I will be one point of wisdom and one point of dex behind. I could cycle str, dex and cha I suppose. So the dwarf are bonus lines up. It would then just mean a 1 point penalty to casting stat, and a less useful secondary stat to use heavy armour. It might be worth it. It just seems like a really long wait to not play a lot of levels with the toys.

[bendking]

Unfortunately this game is at a high optimisation table so I am looking for something with a little more... omph.

Unfortunately raw arcana cleric whilst good, would need a few more tricks.


Did you read the build I linked to? It's pretty damn optimized in my opinion. It also has full-caster progression (which is a big deal) and gets Booming Blade for OA, Shillelagh for SAD, and Thorn Whip for hazards.

[MrStabby]

Did you read the build I linked to? It's pretty damn optimized in my opinion. It also has full-caster progression (which is a big deal) and gets Booming Blade for OA, Shillelagh for SAD, and Thorn Whip for hazards.

Of course I read it.

I am not saying it's bad - my starting point was something similar. I am just saying I was looking for something more. My starting point was literally arcana cleric, warcaster & magic initiate (druid). The link you provided just doesn't seem to offer much more than this and the standard cleric fare.

The build you posted doesn't get a single boost to their casting stat till... well never as far as I can tell. I place somewhat of a premium on enemies failing their saves, so freeing up at least one ASI (or racial stat bump) in the first 10 levels is pretty important to me.

Arcana cleric has a good channel divinity; I like it and I like it's level 6 ability as well. I just think that the Order domain equivalent abilities are going to a) be useful more often, b) be more powerful when they are used, and c) have better synergy with the rest of the build.

They build you posted has merit, but sometimes you need to pull out a few more big guns for some fights. The ability to use a channel divinity to force enemies to drop weapons, wands, grappled wizards and arcane focus is just superb - being able to then use your familiar to help remove them from reach as well as an object interaction to kick one away (and whatever your team-mates can do with the opportunity you have given them) is able to turnaround really tough encounters. Recovering this on a short rest and then twice per short rest is just an extra trick that I think is better than the arcana cleric's mini turn of one creature, and only then if it is of one of a few types. Likewise the ability to quicken enchantment spells a number of times per day just gives you that extra power in the toughest fights. I will accept that this isn't all one sided - the arcana cleric's level 6 ability is awesome in the right fights; if lots of spells are taking down your team-mates the ability to mass healing word your problems away is great. The archetype has its place but I am hoping for something more reliable.

Versatility comparisons between the two builds are harder - arcana cleric does get more spells not on the main cleric list (how you rate these spells is a different matter) but addition of a single wizard level not only boosts your spells prepared that you can draw on but allows a lot of rituals from outside your prepared spells (as well as more rituals than the arcana cleric provides. There is also the role of your other party members - they are also tools to use and the order cleric's level 1 ability lets you use them. If you need raw damage give the rogue another sneak attack opportunity on their turn. Need some radiant damage on that Vampire? Heal the paladin. Need another chance to incapacitate that caster with the legendary saves? Include the monk in your bless.

There is one thing I would miss about a single classed cleric over this level range - divine intervention. Being able to hallow sites, the create holy ground and similar using the spell, perform high level out of combat effects and the like are things I would miss.

[cZak]

[QUOTE=MrStabby;24343054 Unfortunately raw arcana cleric whilst good, would need a few more tricks.[/QUOTE]

I'm currently playing the Arcanna Cleric (with some variances) in a very role broad party
I used the Var Human for Magic Initiate for Shillelagh & Thorn whip.

I'm not a huge damage dealer, but I'm always contributing; Spirit guardians, Booming blade w Shillelagh & yanking bad guys between the Paladin & Rogue seems to make the other players happy

The Dispel magic option w Healing word has helped vs Hold person on the fighter

The 6th level feature is pretty uselss tho. At that level, I'll be lucky to dismiss a familiar

[LudicSavant]

Of course I read it.


The build you posted doesn't get a single boost to their casting stat till... well never as far as I can tell.


freeing up at least one ASI (or racial stat bump) in the first 10 levels is pretty important to me.

The build he posted actually maxes Wis at level 8 with your array.

[MrStabby]

The build he posted actually maxes Wis at level 8 with your array.

Oh right, that's less bad then. Not ideal... but less bad.

[Teaguethebean]

I agree with people saying hill dwarf at lv4 max wis and up int to 13 then you can multiclass. Sadly your to hit will only be +4 until you can up dex but otherwise you will be ok.

[Sparky McDibben]

The build he posted actually maxes Wis at level 8 with your array.

Second this. Afb atm, but played one of these guys and they WRECK house.

[MrStabby]

I agree with people saying hill dwarf at lv4 max wis and up int to 13 then you can multiclass. Sadly your to hit will only be +4 until you can up dex but otherwise you will be ok.

If I do this then I cant get warcaster and booming blade till level 9. The game will be nearly over then. If we were running to level 15 or similar it would be easier to justify (although then I would load up on arcane trickster instead)


Second this. Afb atm, but played one of these guys and they WRECK house.

I am not sure how this differs from my first plan which I had to abandon as I wanted something with a bit more power (or burst power/versatility)? What am I missing here?

[Fable Wright]

If I am not sure how this differs from my first plan which I had to abandon as I wanted something with a bit more power (or burst power/versatility)? What am I missing here?

I think people are mostly undervaluing the benefits of a Familiar granting Advantage and the pseudo Extra Attack from level 1. Healing Word to snap off an ally's Sharpshooter shot is stronger than the marginal solo DPS boost of Arcana Cleric.

Honestly, though, the title is a bit redundant. Tank/ Control is the job description of anyone with Spirit Guardians. If you have it, role secure.

[bendking]

I think people are mostly undervaluing the benefits of a Familiar granting Advantage and the pseudo Extra Attack from level 1. Healing Word to snap off an ally's Sharpshooter shot is stronger than the marginal solo DPS boost of Arcana Cleric.


I think you guys are underestimating the benefits of not losing full-caster levels. In my eyes, if you're going to dip as a full-caster, it better be damn worth it.
I'm just not entirely sure it is, in this case.

For instance, are you even sure the familiar could pick up the weapon your enemies dropped? I mean, weapons are heavy, what makes you think an Owl or whatever is going to be able to pick up an object bigger than itself and with higher mass density?

I could agree that Arcana Cleric build in question doesn't have huge direct damage, but I think the overall value he brings as a package is fantastic, all the while being single-classed and SAD.
Either way, I agree that Order Cleric is very powerful, and I'm sure your build is good, I'm just wary of multi-classing a full-caster, and I see that you aren't as wary, and that's fine :)

[Theaitetos]

They build you posted has merit, but sometimes you need to pull out a few more big guns for some fights. The ability to use a channel divinity to force enemies to drop weapons, wands, grappled wizards and arcane focus is just superb - being able to then use your familiar to help remove them from reach as well as an object interaction to kick one away (and whatever your team-mates can do with the opportunity you have given them) is able to turnaround really tough encounters.

If you have Lost Laboratory of Kwalish, you can take the Flock of Familiars spell to have 3 familiars grabbing & kicking stuff.


There is one thing I would miss about a single classed cleric over this level range - divine intervention. Being able to hallow sites, the create holy ground and similar using the spell, perform high level out of combat effects and the like are things I would miss.

You can always buy a scroll.

[MrStabby]

I think you guys are underestimating the benefits of not losing full-caster levels. In my eyes, if you're going to dip as a full-caster, it better be damn worth it.
I'm just not entirely sure it is, in this case.

For instance, are you even sure the familiar could pick up the weapon your enemies dropped? I mean, weapons are heavy, what makes you think an Owl or whatever is going to be able to pick up an object bigger than itself and with higher mass density?

I could agree that Arcana Cleric build in question doesn't have huge direct damage, but I think the overall value he brings as a package is fantastic, all the while being single-classed and SAD.
Either way, I agree that Order Cleric is very powerful, and I'm sure your build is good, I'm just wary of multi-classing a full-caster, and I see that you aren't as wary, and that's fine :)

So the levels I lose don't impact on spell slots. Just spells known. Lets assume for the moment that we run to level 10, I take two wizard levels and lets assume I push those to the end of the campaign. What I lose out on is 2 HP, divine intervention and knowledge of 5th level cleric spells and two prepared spells. I found playing a cleric before that I used my 5th level spell slots mainly for upcasting banishment and sometimes spiritual guardians. Is the loss of 5th level cleric spells worth it to increase at will damage, to get more efficient burst damage, more value out of channel divinity, more spells prepared, access to shield and absorb elements, better ritual casting, and another spell slot. Personally I think it is worth it.

The reason I shuffled the wizard levels to the end is just to facilitate a comparison - if there are advantages to getting some of the wizard stuff earlier over other cleric stuff then this is just an improvement. What order is best is certainly open to debate.

Can the familiar pick up the weapons dropped? I think so - if I take an Owl then they have the physiology needed to lift stuff off the ground (it is how they predate) as they have opposable talons. It is then a matter of carrying capacity. A Str 3 creature has a capacity of 15*3 pounds but we need to half that for the tiny size to get 22. The heaviest weapon in the weapon table is a halberd at 18 pounds. For comparison a longsword is 3 pounds.


If you have Lost Laboratory of Kwalish, you can take the Flock of Familiars spell to have 3 familiars grabbing & kicking stuff.



You can always buy a scroll.

Wow. A spell that was built for this... assuming it is level 1... or a cleric spell. We won't be using any third party stuff though, which I was right behind till I saw this. Actually it is probably for the best though.

Buying a scroll... yeah it works. I have a serious chance of failure though. Guidance helps, as does enhance ability.

[Theaitetos]

Wow. A spell that was built for this... assuming it is level 1... or a cleric spell. We won't be using any third party stuff though, which I was right behind till I saw this. Actually it is probably for the best though.

It's a level 2 wizard spell.

You should also take a close look at initiative order, as the Command spell only works once the enemy starts its turn. Depending on that, you might not even need a familiar, for example: An enemy starts its turn, then drops its weapons/shields & ends its turn (as commanded), then your ally starts his turn, he can simply pick up 1 weapon/shield as free item interaction and then do whatever he does usually.

So it matters much more on the initiative order and how many enemies you used Command on, rather than having familiar(s) nearby to swoop in and steal the weapon, imo.

And if you go Arcane Trickster instead of Wizard, you can use your Mage Hand (as action & bonus action) the next round to pick up weapons/shields.

[Fable Wright]

I think you guys are underestimating the benefits of not losing full-caster levels. In my eyes, if you're going to dip as a full-caster, it better be damn worth it.
I'm just not entirely sure it is, in this case.

For instance, are you even sure the familiar could pick up the weapon your enemies dropped? I mean, weapons are heavy, what makes you think an Owl or whatever is going to be able to pick up an object bigger than itself and with higher mass density?

What's this about familiars picking up weapons? :smallconfused:

It's worth it for the Aid action spam. And I agree, losing full caster levels hurts... before level 5.

After you have Spirit Guardians, it's the best use of every 3rd+ level spell slot. Period. So not having access to higher level spells known isn't that big a deal until level 15 with Holy Aura. I definitely agree that you really don't want the Wizard dip at 3, but instead at level 6, but after that the dip is pretty worthwhile.

[bendking]

What's this about familiars picking up weapons? :smallconfused:

He said it, not me.
I find it quite hard to imagine an Owl picking up a Halbred, but that's just a matter of D&D vs Reality.



It's worth it for the Aid action spam. And I agree, losing full caster levels hurts... before level 5.

After you have Spirit Guardians, it's the best use of every 3rd+ level spell slot. Period. So not having access to higher level spells known isn't that big a deal until level 15 with Holy Aura. I definitely agree that you really don't want the Wizard dip at 3, but instead at level 6, but after that the dip is pretty worthwhile.

I can see where you're coming from. It's also true that full caster levels on a Cleric isn't as important as on other full-casters.
I'm coming around to this build bit by bit.

[Pex]

A melee cleric doesn't have to be the absolute best at damage dealing nor should it. Let the warriors shine. It's good enough for the melee cleric to be doing decent damage. Variant Human Magic Initiate Druid Arcana cleric does - Shillelagh, Booming Blade, Sacred Weapon. That's two attacks per round starting at level 3. Other Domains offer their own ways. Go with what's fun and don't worry what combo of things provides the absolute best damage possible.

Always remember, it's fine to ask for advice on build choices, but you never need our permission.

[Smoothjedi]

Is the loss of 5th level cleric spells worth it to increase at will damage, to get more efficient burst damage, more value out of channel divinity, more spells prepared, access to shield and absorb elements, better ritual casting, and another spell slot. Personally I think it is worth it.

I feel like you're not following your own advice here. First of all, if you pick up cantrips from the wizard class, they're going to be wizard cantrips, and the extra damage due to your intelligence modifier is going to be pretty bad.
Going arcana cleric, you can get two cantrips that are considered cleric cantrips. You could pick up Green Flame Blade as well as Booming Blade this way. The eighth level ability allows you to add your wisdom bonus to cantrip damage, meaning doubling up on the former, and just adding it to the latter. Assuming you have a 20 wis, that extra +5 is slightly better than the average of the d8 you'd be gaining on melee attacks through Order. Granted, Order does increase to 2d8 at level 14, but that's out of the scope of your character anyway.
Plus not having to worry about your Int for multiclassing will allow you to maybe pump up your Dex to make medium armor just as good as heavy. All of this while not dipping into Wizard to slow down your spell progression.

[LudicSavant]

Assuming you have a 20 wis, that extra +5 is slightly better than the average of the d8 you'd be gaining on melee attacks through Order. Granted, Order does increase to 2d8 at level 14, but that's out of the scope of your character anyway.
In addition to this, it is perhaps also worth noting that Divine Strike doesn't apply at all on opportunity attacks (unlike Sneak Attack, it only works on your turn), so it won't help your Warcaster-Booming Blade punishes. Also, Potent Spellcasting applies its bonus twice to Booming Blade; once to the initial damage, and again to the rider. And their attack stat will be lower, and they'll be using a 1d6 simple weapon. That basically amounts to -2 to hit and -13 damage relative to an Arcana Cleric's Warcaster Booming Blade.

[MrStabby]

A melee cleric doesn't have to be the absolute best at damage dealing nor should it. Let the warriors shine. It's good enough for the melee cleric to be doing decent damage. Variant Human Magic Initiate Druid Arcana cleric does - Shillelagh, Booming Blade, Sacred Weapon. That's two attacks per round starting at level 3. Other Domains offer their own ways. Go with what's fun and don't worry what combo of things provides the absolute best damage possible.

Always remember, it's fine to ask for advice on build choices, but you never need our permission.

Oh I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately direct damage is the most comparable thing in the game so that is what people tend to fixate on the most. The ability to support and to help allies that is offered by a class attracts much less comment.

My attitude in building this was that each character usually, with some exceptions seems to one thing each turn. They buff,they heal, they control or they do damage. I wanted to build an exception. On a single turn I wanted to be able to do multiple things - to buff an ally or to heal them and to do damage (albeit through their reaction) I wanted to control by laying down enchantment spells and still being able to attack and cast a cantrip as an action.

The trouble is that this then has limitations - bonus action enchantments limit what I can do with the action that turn so the cantrip buffing is a good way to increase overall effectiveness. Sure, it's just damage but it all adds up.

Mainly I wanted tricks. I wanted to disarm opponents an render them relatively safe. I want to use compulsion to line people up against a wall dragging them across spike growth where a sorcerer with a readied lightning bolt has a perfect shot. I want to command people to move, and to give the party time to all get an attack of opportunity. I want do do lots of things per turn and to make meaningful choices almost every turn - but I also think that in doing so the resultant build is pretty powerful as well. The point is to have the flexibility to do the right thing rather than just going for personal damage.


I feel like you're not following your own advice here. First of all, if you pick up cantrips from the wizard class, they're going to be wizard cantrips, and the extra damage due to your intelligence modifier is going to be pretty bad.
Going arcana cleric, you can get two cantrips that are considered cleric cantrips. You could pick up Green Flame Blade as well as Booming Blade this way. The eighth level ability allows you to add your wisdom bonus to cantrip damage, meaning doubling up on the former, and just adding it to the latter. Assuming you have a 20 wis, that extra +5 is slightly better than the average of the d8 you'd be gaining on melee attacks through Order. Granted, Order does increase to 2d8 at level 14, but that's out of the scope of your character anyway.
Plus not having to worry about your Int for multiclassing will allow you to maybe pump up your Dex to make medium armor just as good as heavy. All of this while not dipping into Wizard to slow down your spell progression.

Yes cantrips from the wizard class will use intelligence... however every cantrip and every spell I mentioned as wanting from the wizard (booming blade, absorb elements, shield) doesn't use int at all. I don't have to worry about the casting stat for these. I am also not sure which piece of my own advice I am not following - this comment confuses me. Could you elucidate?

Also your comment about spell progression... what 5th and 6th level spells are you thinking I am going to be missing the most? What spells are you thinking are a better use of a 5th and 6th level spell slot than up cast banishment and upcast spirit guardians?

Greenflame blade is much less useful to me than booming blade here - being able to cast command as a bonus action, having compulsion on the spell list... all ways of forcing the enemy to use their movement and to trigger booming blade's secondary ability.

I agree that potent spellcasting will on average do half a point more damage per hit than divine strike, one wisdom is maximised. You cant win em all and I will just have to suck up that half-point of damage difference.

I think that people are getting a bit fixated on the wizard for booming blade. It is just one of many reasons for dipping wizard - if it were the only reason I could just use high elf or one of the variant half elves to pick it up with no stat shift required. The awesome level 1 defensive wizard spells, the ritual casting, the familiar are all contributing factors; a class is more than a cantrip.


In addition to this, it is perhaps also worth noting that Divine Strike doesn't apply at all on opportunity attacks (unlike Sneak Attack, it only works on your turn), so it won't help your Warcaster-Booming Blade punishes. Also, Potent Spellcasting applies its bonus twice to Booming Blade; once to the initial damage, and again to the rider. And their attack stat will be lower, and they'll be using a 1d6 simple weapon. That basically amounts to -2 to hit and -13 damage relative to an Arcana Cleric's Warcaster Booming Blade.

These are reasonable points. Jury is still out on whether we will be using the alternate class features UA and on whether the damage boost from potent spellcasting would apply twice to the cantrip, so there are some things here that I cannot say for certain. As a DM I have ruled that the potent spellcasting feature is not limited to once per cantrip but I am aware that is a controversial interpretation.

So to get your -13 damage I need to add -5 (difference between divine strike and potent spellcasting on primary effect), -5 (difference between potent spellcasting and no bonus on secondary), -2 (difference between casting stat and attack stat) and -1 (difference between a d6 and a d8 damage die)? This seems absolutely reasonable. On the other hand the Order cleric makes more attacks - where the arcana cleric needs to use an action to force movement the order cleric can use a bonus action and make an attack at the same time for more damage. Where the arcana cleric needs to use a bonus action to get Shillelagh up and running the order cleric can be using that to get spiritual weapon going, or to use the aforementioned compelled movement. The aim of a cleric with command and compulsion as domain spells is to not only get a lot of attacks of opportunity but to also have the tools to trigger the movement aspect of booming blade more than any other class (convenient for moving people into and out of spirit guardians each turn).

As a rough back of the envelope calculation I would guess at an average of 7 encounters per day, 4 combat rounds per encounter (3 or 4 depending on if you roll high or low for initiative) for 28 combat rounds per day. Looking at about level 9 there are 14 spell slots the character would have (I guess +1 from arcane recovery). Add to this 2 channel divinities refreshed on two short rests for 6 per day.
This, roughly would lead me to expect about 8 combat rounds where no resources are used. Now in those 8 rounds the arcana cleric is better (although I would argue that this is being somewhat generous as the arcana cleric's channel divinity is less commonly applicable; on the other hand it may be generous to the order cleric if it is spending spell slots on shield). In the other 20 rounds the order cleric will shine for those where it buff/heals the party - I would guess about 5 and the five rounds where it's enchantments are bonus actions. Roughly speaking I would say they seem to spend equal amounts of time when one is likely to be more useful than the other. The difference to my mind is that the Order cleric has more peak power - at it's most powerful it is consuming its resources so is better to rise to the challenges of harder encounters whereas the Arcana cleric is better suited to longer days that just keep grinding you down.

As an out of combat comparison... again it's tough. Arcana cleric gets some interesting spells that might see some use. Magic aura can be fun sometimes... arcane eye is good and teleportation circle might be really cool in some games. Detect magic is going to be common between wizard and arcana. Wizard will have one other ritual pick for the spell book: unseen servant, identify. Order cleric itself mainly provides stuff already on the cleric list: zone of truth, locate creature. I guess it frees up some more space for utility stuff. Wizard does give stuff like the mending cantrip though as well as mage hand, mould earth, shape water which makes it a small bit better here in my estimation.

[stoutstien]

One build I've considered is a cav or BM fighter 12/ order domain 8.
Heavy warlord/leader feel with flexibility.

[LudicSavant]

A couple quick notes:


The aim of a cleric with command and compulsion as domain spells is to not only get a lot of attacks of opportunity but to also have the tools to trigger the movement aspect of booming blade more than any other class Booming Blade cannot be triggered by compelled movement.


Where the arcana cleric needs to use a bonus action to get Shillelagh up A bonus action they would optimally be using out of combat, since it can be maintained indefinitely. This frees them up to do other things, such as Spiritual Weapon, or healing and dispelling the entire party as a bonus action.

[micahaphone]

I'm really surprised, I was ready to argue the difference between forced movement (thunderwave) and compulsory movement (command), and then I double checked Booming Blade


If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.

And wow, that spell does work differently from how Opportunity Attacks treat forced vs compulsory movement. Thanks Ludic, I didn't know that before now.

[MrStabby]

A couple quick notes:

Booming Blade cannot be triggered by compelled movement.

A bonus action they would optimally be using out of combat, since it can be maintained indefinitely. This frees them up to do other things, such as Spiritual Weapon, or healing and dispelling the entire party as a bonus action.

My understanding was that "willingly moves" was similar to opportunity attacks - i.e. that it was considered willing if they used their own movement to do so, rather than being shoved etc..



Does your table also wander around casting guidance every 30 seconds just in case combat might start? If nothing else casting spells just outside of a room with enemies in is likely to give away your position.

[Arkhios]

You can always buy a scroll.

Can you, though?

Default assumption is that magic items are rather scarcely available and tend to be found, not bought. Scrolls are magic items as well.

I mean, sure, most DM's (probably) utilize magic item merchants by default in their games, but I wouldn't say that's always the case.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks Ludic, I didn't know that before now.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

[HiveStriker]

Of course I read it.

I am not saying it's bad - my starting point was something similar. I am just saying I was looking for something more. My starting point was literally arcana cleric, warcaster & magic initiate (druid). The link you provided just doesn't seem to offer much more than this and the standard cleric fare.

The build you posted doesn't get a single boost to their casting stat till... well never as far as I can tell. I place somewhat of a premium on enemies failing their saves, so freeing up at least one ASI (or racial stat bump) in the first 10 levels is pretty important to me.

Arcana cleric has a good channel divinity; I like it and I like it's level 6 ability as well. I just think that the Order domain equivalent abilities are going to a) be useful more often, b) be more powerful when they are used, and c) have better synergy with the rest of the build.

They build you posted has merit, but sometimes you need to pull out a few more big guns for some fights. The ability to use a channel divinity to force enemies to drop weapons, wands, grappled wizards and arcane focus is just superb - being able to then use your familiar to help remove them from reach as well as an object interaction to kick one away (and whatever your team-mates can do with the opportunity you have given them) is able to turnaround really tough encounters.
Hi! ;)

I'm not sure I agree on the combination of "optimized build" notion and a Cleric / Wizard multiclass. XD

If you want big guns, a maximized Tempest Cleric Shatter or Zeal Cleric Fireball ought to land a big blow to enemy troops.
If you want control, Nature Cleric with Plant Growth or plain Druid would have several tools too.

Anwyays, I'll stop the off-topic here, you're clearly liking the Order Domain for your character concept. :)

My next question would be: why Wizard?
- Booming Blade can be gotten with Magic Initiate, or a single level in Sorcerer or Warlock.
- Find Familiar can be gotten with Ritual Caster, or three levels in Warlock, or simply emulated with Speak With Animals + Persuasion checks or Conjure Animals.
On that note, considering your main idea with the familiar is grabbing weapons dropped by enemies because of your Channel Divinity, I really feel Find Familiar is simply not enough, so I'd really suggest "hiring" beasts with Persuasion instead (that way you can really disable a group of opponents in a swift way).
- War Magic is nice, it's about the only one though: Bladesinger is nigh useless for you, Evoker seem not to be your thing. Necromancy I fear won't be triggered as often as you'd expect. Diviner is potentially great but you need to be lucky.

If you were wanting to get up to three levels in another class than Cleric, conversely...
- Sorcerer would get you same cantrips, interesting spells, and metamagics (Extend to buff your party, Subtle for shenanigans, Distant for your touch spells, or even Quicken to chain up CD with spell).
- Warlock would get you same cantrips, other interesting spells, and all rituals you need for your animal manipulation works.
Plus since those are Charisma based, it would mix well, in fact better imo, with the image I see of your character which is in essence a "guys that orders and commands", for which intelligence is definitely needed, but charisma is at least equally if not more important.

IMHO the main, if not only, interest of Wizard, is that it brings many of the features you want on the first level. So it's definitely the best choice if you're set with only one level.
For two levels, Warlock would probably be better, if only because it grants you two short-rest 1st level slots (Sanctuary, Command, Healing Words), and since you want to use your Channel Divinity often, you will rest often.
For three levels, Sorcerer and Warlock are both great, although Warlock is closer to what you're looking for in features but Patron fuff may work against your character concept...



Always remember, it's fine to ask for advice on build choices, but you never need our permission.
Totally true, thanks for reminding it. :)

[MrStabby]

Hi! ;)

Hello!



I'm not sure I agree on the combination of "optimized build" notion and a Cleric / Wizard multiclass. XD

If you want big guns, a maximized Tempest Cleric Shatter or Zeal Cleric Fireball ought to land a big blow to enemy troops.
If you want control, Nature Cleric with Plant Growth or plain Druid would have several tools too.

Yeah... not really after a "big guns" type of cleric. More "control with benefits" type of cleric.
You are right with druid and nature cleric - they are both on my list as well. Plant growth and spike growth are awesome. My concern was that as we get to level 8+ we would see more flying enemies and these spells seem less useful underwater. Nature cleric still gets to use spirit guardians with thorn-whip, which I think is quite nice and heat metal is a nice debuff for druid (or forge cleric - another contender)





Anwyays, I'll stop the off-topic here, you're clearly liking the Order Domain for your character concept. :)

My next question would be: why Wizard?
- Booming Blade can be gotten with Magic Initiate, or a single level in Sorcerer or Warlock.
- Find Familiar can be gotten with Ritual Caster, or three levels in Warlock, or simply emulated with Speak With Animals + Persuasion checks or Conjure Animals.
On that note, considering your main idea with the familiar is grabbing weapons dropped by enemies because of your Channel Divinity, I really feel Find Familiar is simply not enough, so I'd really suggest "hiring" beasts with Persuasion instead (that way you can really disable a group of opponents in a swift way).
- War Magic is nice, it's about the only one though: Bladesinger is nigh useless for you, Evoker seem not to be your thing. Necromancy I fear won't be triggered as often as you'd expect. Diviner is potentially great but you need to be lucky.

Magic initiate for booming blade would be an option if I were to not go human. A decently large part of the dip is about timing though, and might not happen if we were likely to see level 12+. If I play a non human race and pick up warcaster then MI cannot come before Level 8. Simply put, I want those goodies sooner. Oddly enough, V.Human, which can give the stat boost I need for wizard also lets the 2nd feat come sooner.

Find familliar can also come with magic initiate so I don't need a separate feat for this. That said, if I were not to be dipping Wizard the Ritual Caster Feat would be a great pick to round out the support capabilities.



If you were wanting to get up to three levels in another class than Cleric, conversely...
- Sorcerer would get you same cantrips, interesting spells, and metamagics (Extend to buff your party, Subtle for shenanigans, Distant for your touch spells, or even Quicken to chain up CD with spell).
- Warlock would get you same cantrips, other interesting spells, and all rituals you need for your animal manipulation works.
Plus since those are Charisma based, it would mix well, in fact better imo, with the image I see of your character which is in essence a "guys that orders and commands", for which intelligence is definitely needed, but charisma is at least equally if not more important.


So a lot of reasonable points here, but again it comes down to timing and the level we are likely to finish at. Wizard gives good stuff from level 1. Sorcerer needs 3 to even begin metamagic. Warlock is a bit more frontloaded and could work: Hexblade could mean I can have high casting stat for secondary class and high attack stat as well. Two levels would allow my warcaster to trigger an even bigger cantrip attack than booming blade. Grasp of hadar can work like thrown-whip to pull enemies closer to me and provides me with some nice options for charm/enchantment/massive wisdom enemies. Eldritch blast is kind of pretty good for conserving spell slots anyway. Whilst I would prefer normal casting rather than pact magic, a couple of level 1 spell slots per short rest would not go amiss. Warlock dip looks like it might be on-par with wizard. If I were to be using warlock as a dip then I probably wouldn't care so much about level 8 for cleric. So right at the end I could either pick up pact of the chain for an enhanced familliar or pact of the tome for more cantrips and a normal familiar... with a pact of the chain I could grad another invocation like devil's sight - always a nice thing to have. Warlock is a definite possibility.

[Theaitetos]

Can you, though?

Default assumption is that magic items are rather scarcely available and tend to be found, not bought. Scrolls are magic items as well.

I mean, sure, most DM's (probably) utilize magic item merchants by default in their games, but I wouldn't say that's always the case.

One-use items like common/uncommon potions & scrolls should really be easy to come by. They're not like magic items with permanent/rechargeable effects.





Magic initiate for booming blade would be an option if I were to not go human. A decently large part of the dip is about timing though, and might not happen if we were likely to see level 12+. If I play a non human race and pick up warcaster then MI cannot come before Level 8. Simply put, I want those goodies sooner. Oddly enough, V.Human, which can give the stat boost I need for wizard also lets the 2nd feat come sooner.

Find familliar can also come with magic initiate so I don't need a separate feat for this. That said, if I were not to be dipping Wizard the Ritual Caster Feat would be a great pick to round out the support capabilities.

Did you consider my advice?
You don't necessarily need a familiar to pick up the weapons, it can be done by your party members – it's much more important that you select your Command / Channel Divinity targets according to initiative order, as each of your enemies drops his weapon at the beginning of his own turn, not when you cast the spell. So even if you have a familiar, it will have its own turn determined by initiative and can't swoop in immediately to pick up a weapon. And since everyone has 1 free item interaction each turn, your party members can simply stow away a dropped weapon and then continue their turn as usual.



Hexblade could mean I can have high casting stat for secondary class and high attack stat as well.

You're currently planning to fight with a dagger, right? Since it's the only simple weapon with the finesse property, and your Order Cleric doesn't have martial weapon proficiency and he has low STR.

If you're going with Booming Blade, then there's nothing wrong with a dagger. However, if you intend to pick up another caster class (warlock, wizard, druid, …) then you should consider that you can't cast most of their spells until you actually pick up War Caster (mostly relevant if you don't go Variant Human), since you're carrying a shield and a weapon.

And even if you have War Caster, you still need to consider material components of spells; a cleric can use his shield as spellcasting focus, but the arcane casters can't, so you would need to hold an arcane spellcasting focus or have a free hand to access the component pouch – War Caster doesn't end this requirement for material components!

So usually people use a quarterstaff as weapon, since it doubles as an arcane/druidic spell focus. The problem with that is that it doesn't have the finesse property. But Hexblade isn't the only way to make this work: If you go Tomelock, then you can grab Shillelagh from the druid spell list and use it to make your attacks with CHA instead of STR. It's at the cost of a bonus action at the beginning of combat, but you would be free to choose another patron besides Hexblade. You'd be free to evaluate patrons based on their other benefits and spells: Hexblade has Shield (which you want), but GOO has Tasha's Hideous Laughter & Dissonant Whispers (enchantment spells which you might want).

[HiveStriker]

Hello!


Magic initiate for booming blade would be an option if I were to not go human. A decently large part of the dip is about timing though, and might not happen if we were likely to see level 12+. If I play a non human race and pick up warcaster then MI cannot come before Level 8. Simply put, I want those goodies sooner. Oddly enough, V.Human, which can give the stat boost I need for wizard also lets the 2nd feat come sooner.

Find familliar can also come with magic initiate so I don't need a separate feat for this. That said, if I were not to be dipping Wizard the Ritual Caster Feat would be a great pick to round out the support capabilities.



So a lot of reasonable points here, but again it comes down to timing and the level we are likely to finish at. Wizard gives good stuff from level 1. Sorcerer needs 3 to even begin metamagic. Warlock is a bit more frontloaded and could work: Hexblade could mean I can have high casting stat for secondary class and high attack stat as well. Two levels would allow my warcaster to trigger an even bigger cantrip attack than booming blade. Grasp of hadar can work like thrown-whip to pull enemies closer to me and provides me with some nice options for charm/enchantment/massive wisdom enemies. Eldritch blast is kind of pretty good for conserving spell slots anyway. Whilst I would prefer normal casting rather than pact magic, a couple of level 1 spell slots per short rest would not go amiss. Warlock dip looks like it might be on-par with wizard. If I were to be using warlock as a dip then I probably wouldn't care so much about level 8 for cleric. So right at the end I could either pick up pact of the chain for an enhanced familliar or pact of the tome for more cantrips and a normal familiar... with a pact of the chain I could grad another invocation like devil's sight - always a nice thing to have. Warlock is a definite possibility.
No worries, it's your character concept. :) Plus it seemed I helped you a bit in reasserting and strenghtening the reasons behind Wizard so overall I'd say it's a good end. ^^

One last nitpick from me, putting aside the Wizard/Warlock, and rather emphasizing on Booming Blade, or rather, Magic Initiate vs Ritual Caster.
I have a lesser opinion of Booming Blade than most others, because I don't see it making any real difference before at the very least level 5, and in my taste level 11. I mean, as far as "extra damage on move" goes. The benefit of having a single weapon attack with extra damage on top is sure nice, but again, you only start seeing it at level 5.

So my last suggestion on topic would be the following: send the idea of "hiring/manipulating wild/tamed/city/circus/whatever animals to do half-complex things" by your DM. If he likes the idea and is ready to let you a decent freedom of creativity around it, imho, it's at least ten times worth a bit of extra damage on weapon attack. Plus it would bring some Druidic feeling to your character, and from your other posts it seems this wouldn't be a bad thing. ^^

Anyways. You obviously think things through beforehand, so I have no doubt you'll have a character both enjoyable and efficient whatever you decide. If possible give a bit of feedback when you are char level 5 it could be interesting. :=)

[MrStabby]

Did you consider my advice?
You don't necessarily need a familiar to pick up the weapons, it can be done by your party members – it's much more important that you select your Command / Channel Divinity targets according to initiative order, as each of your enemies drops his weapon at the beginning of his own turn, not when you cast the spell. So even if you have a familiar, it will have its own turn determined by initiative and can't swoop in immediately to pick up a weapon. And since everyone has 1 free item interaction each turn, your party members can simply stow away a dropped weapon and then continue their turn as usual.


Yes - my team will be able to pick up weapons. I am not sure what the party make-up will be though so not sure how eager everyone will be to close with the enemy to grab their weapons - not that it can't happen after the start of a fight. There will be a bit of juggling with initiative from time to time though, you are right. The familiar was just there as an extra pair of hands and one that can flyby. The probability of the familiar going after me but before an enemy will depend on the enemy in question though. I would hope that in our party of 4 we would have at least one front-liner other than me.




You're currently planning to fight with a dagger, right? Since it's the only simple weapon with the finesse property, and your Order Cleric doesn't have martial weapon proficiency and he has low STR.

If you're going with Booming Blade, then there's nothing wrong with a dagger. However, if you intend to pick up another caster class (warlock, wizard, druid, …) then you should consider that you can't cast most of their spells until you actually pick up War Caster (mostly relevant if you don't go Variant Human), since you're carrying a shield and a weapon.

Warcaster would be the fist feat - either at level 1 or level 4 depending on race. Any multi-classing for a cantrip would not take place before 5 (for other purposes might come earlier though). If I multiclassed druid I could use shillelagh, if I multiclassed warlock I could take hexblade for other weapons. Wizard would be stuck with a dagger if I am human, not really the end of the world though - for the early levels I would be expecting to use toll the dead as a cantrip. Before warcaster I would probably actually have a shield and a free hand.



And even if you have War Caster, you still need to consider material components of spells; a cleric can use his shield as spellcasting focus, but the arcane casters can't, so you would need to hold an arcane spellcasting focus or have a free hand to access the component pouch – War Caster doesn't end this requirement for material components!
Yeah, thats true. I had thought that if I went Warlock I could use eldritch blast for my opportunity attacks... but that would have disadvantage. So my plan was to hold a whip - sure I wouldn't be proficient but I was not looking to make attacks with it, just to set the range for my opportunity attacks to be outside of 5 ft... but then thats 2 hands if I am holding a shield. I was not sure how to work round this until I realised eldritch blast doesn't actually need a material component. I think that given the spells I would be looking to use it should be OK.



So usually people use a quarterstaff as weapon, since it doubles as an arcane/druidic spell focus. The problem with that is that it doesn't have the finesse property. But Hexblade isn't the only way to make this work: If you go Tomelock, then you can grab Shillelagh from the druid spell list and use it to make your attacks with CHA instead of STR. It's at the cost of a bonus action at the beginning of combat, but you would be free to choose another patron besides Hexblade. You'd be free to evaluate patrons based on their other benefits and spells: Hexblade has Shield (which you want), but GOO has Tasha's Hideous Laughter & Dissonant Whispers (enchantment spells which you might want).

Yeah, I had assumed that I would be using warlock in a similar way as wizard - dipping to get spells that didn't require a casting stat, but if I use Cha as an attack stat it could open up some other options. GOO is cool for the aforementioned spells that conveniently are enchantments. Sure, there is a lot of overlap between dissonant whispers and command but the flexability of having people move on your turn and 3d6 damage is always a nice bonus. I had been eyeing up the fey pact - mainly for faerie fire to diversify my effects and the saves targeted. If you are fighting a bunch of clerics then hitting dex is probably better than wisdom.

That said, hexblade is just... so powerful. Hexblades curse turns me into a mincing machine: multiple eldritch blasts, spirit guardians, maybe spiritual weapon (if the fight lasts long enough)... so sure, we probably don't have spike growth to abuse it totally, but even so it feels like we should be getting more out of this feature than most warlocks. The ability to not just be a controller but to switch mode into a top-rate murder machine is quite attractive. Shield and wrathful smite are both really powerful spells to know (although the smite would actually need me to get my hands dirty with actually making weapon attacks.

[MrStabby]

No worries, it's your character concept. :) Plus it seemed I helped you a bit in reasserting and strenghtening the reasons behind Wizard so overall I'd say it's a good end. ^^

One last nitpick from me, putting aside the Wizard/Warlock, and rather emphasizing on Booming Blade, or rather, Magic Initiate vs Ritual Caster.
I have a lesser opinion of Booming Blade than most others, because I don't see it making any real difference before at the very least level 5, and in my taste level 11. I mean, as far as "extra damage on move" goes. The benefit of having a single weapon attack with extra damage on top is sure nice, but again, you only start seeing it at level 5.

So my last suggestion on topic would be the following: send the idea of "hiring/manipulating wild/tamed/city/circus/whatever animals to do half-complex things" by your DM. If he likes the idea and is ready to let you a decent freedom of creativity around it, imho, it's at least ten times worth a bit of extra damage on weapon attack. Plus it would bring some Druidic feeling to your character, and from your other posts it seems this wouldn't be a bad thing. ^^

Anyways. You obviously think things through beforehand, so I have no doubt you'll have a character both enjoyable and efficient whatever you decide. If possible give a bit of feedback when you are char level 5 it could be interesting. :=)

For me booming blade is a little DM dependant. I think one of the reasons why I see it being good is that there are more magic weapons in games I have seen than there are items to boost DC of your saves or spell attacks. If you have a cantrip that gets +2 to hit and+2 to damage it is the kind of boost that I see less frequently than on other cantrips. Ultimately I also think it needs to be seen as part of a set of options; it isn't always the right answer but if you really want someone not to move... but not so much that you want to use a leveled spell on them... then it's pretty good.

Also really like your animals idea. I guess if we are going with GGtR as being allowed, and I am happy to fluff away some elements, I could go Gruul and get access to conjured animals for some primate assistance. With a more difficult time and more out of character it also gives access to shatter for just a little hint of blasting. Still a trained set of animals to take around with us would be pretty cool.

[Pex]

For me booming blade is a little DM dependant. I think one of the reasons why I see it being good is that there are more magic weapons in games I have seen than there are items to boost DC of your saves or spell attacks. If you have a cantrip that gets +2 to hit and+2 to damage it is the kind of boost that I see less frequently than on other cantrips. Ultimately I also think it needs to be seen as part of a set of options; it isn't always the right answer but if you really want someone not to move... but not so much that you want to use a leveled spell on them... then it's pretty good.

Also really like your animals idea. I guess if we are going with GGtR as being allowed, and I am happy to fluff away some elements, I could go Gruul and get access to conjured animals for some primate assistance. With a more difficult time and more out of character it also gives access to shatter for just a little hint of blasting. Still a trained set of animals to take around with us would be pretty cool.

Booming Blade is for those who want to attack in melee but don't get Extra Attack. It provides almost as much damage and once in a while a bit more when the rider takes effect. A magic weapon or not is irrelevant. The hard part is being able to use it with your prime attack score. That's where you need to use optimization in addition to getting access to the spell. You're basically building your character around the concept and use whatever else you get from those build choices.

[HiveStriker]

Also really like your animals idea. I guess if we are going with GGtR as being allowed, and I am happy to fluff away some elements, I could go Gruul and get access to conjured animals for some primate assistance. With a more difficult time and more out of character it also gives access to shatter for just a little hint of blasting. Still a trained set of animals to take around with us would be pretty cool.
Well, I was actually rather thinking grabbing the Speak With Animals rituals and/or Animal Friendship spells any way you can.
Conjure Animals has many other benefits, but it's overall "just one spell". Of course if you can grab it not too late and you think it's enough, it's perfect.
Note also that Speak with Animals is not an automatic win. Contrarily to the Conjure spells, true animals are not supposed to be as ready to obey and as capable. Plus you may be ready for your DM to ask you to roleplay the animal discussion. It can be extremely fun, but can also be annoying. Really depends. XD

[Theaitetos]

Sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards (and bards) also get access to all the new psionic spells, that were released in past UAs and are likely to come in the future. Most of these spells (& 1 cantrip) are enchantment, too, except for the anti-psionic defensive ones (abjuration) and Psionic Blast (evocation).

[MrStabby]

Sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards (and bards) also get access to all the new psionic spells, that were released in past UAs and are likely to come in the future. Most of these spells (& 1 cantrip) are enchantment, too, except for the anti-psionic defensive ones (abjuration) and Psionic Blast (evocation).

Hmm. I don't think we will be using this UA but there is some stuff of interest there. The spell Mind Thrust seems OK - scales well and uses Int as a nice break. The thing in the UA that is awesome is the wizard subclass. Bonus action mage hand, slight damage boost, super best friends spell... all nice.

[Theaitetos]

Hmm. I don't think we will be using this UA but there is some stuff of interest there. The spell Mind Thrust seems OK - scales well and uses Int as a nice break. The thing in the UA that is awesome is the wizard subclass. Bonus action mage hand, slight damage boost, super best friends spell... all nice.

If you use the CFV-UA, then Mind Sliver is a wonderful low-level cantrip to break the concentration of other (non-wizard) casters: –1d4 on a concentration save is tough in tier 1. Probably not interesting for your build, but I bet it will be a standard for Mage Slayer builds. The enchantment parts are probably what you're interested in, as a Mind Sliver action spell can soften an enemy for the following bonus action Command or similar spell.

[MrStabby]

If you use the CFV-UA, then Mind Sliver is a wonderful low-level cantrip to break the concentration of other (non-wizard) casters: –1d4 on a concentration save is tough in tier 1. Probably not interesting for your build, but I bet it will be a standard for Mage Slayer builds. The enchantment parts are probably what you're interested in, as a Mind Sliver action spell can soften an enemy for the following bonus action Command or similar spell.

Yeah, thats a good point - I skimmed over the cantrip as all the Order cleric abilities want levelled spells - it stands on its own merits though.

[Cikomyr]

You want a truly tanky cleric? Use one that self-heal the most.

Death Cleric get martial weapons and Vampiric Touch. You can heal (3d6)/2 hit point per round for a single 3rd level spell. Just supplement yourself with other bonus action spells.

[HiveStriker]

You want a truly tanky cleric? Use one that self-heal the most.

Death Cleric get martial weapons and Vampiric Touch. You can heal (3d6)/2 hit point per round for a single 3rd level spell. Just supplement yourself with other bonus action spells.
If you want to go that way I'd argue that Life Cleric with a three-level dip in Shepherd Cleric is even better, by a large margin: Unicorn Aura + self-centered Healing Spirit would heal at least the same average amount, but in a much more reliable way: no chance of no healing (you don't depend on an attack hitting), good guaranteed minimum (1 -spell min- + 4 -Life feature- + 3 -Unicorn = 8).

Of course it has its own drawbacks: three levels in another class, even if it also brings good spells, does hurt significantly the spell progression. And with both spell and feature requiring a bonus action, it's "online" only on 2nd round at best.

IMHO though, in both cases the main problem is that you use concentration on preserving yourself, where you'd probably have some control / debuff spells that could be very useful in that fight.

At least Vampiric Touch does some damage; on the multiclass side, you'd probably want to get a weapon cantrip, because I'm not sure Sacred Flame scales enough (it has other merits though)...