Are the races the same species?

[Bobthewizard]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?

What do you think?

[MrStabby]

It seems humans have very few inhibitions about their sexual partners and are very broad minded. From what I have seen this is not true of all the other races. Elves, dwarfs, fiends, celestials... there are probably some fey-lovers out there as well.

Of course this does not mean that they are not different species - it depends on if they have genetically viable offspring or not.

It is also conceivable that the different organisms have a cline type gradient to different characteristics with humans in the middle such that they can interbreed with elves and dragons whilst the two extremes do not interbreed.

[Trask]

D&D world isnt governed by the same scientific principles that govern ours. That's the only true answer to this question.

[Teaguethebean]

I would assume humans in dnd are the exception to the rule.

[FilthyLucre]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?

What do you think?

https://i.imgur.com/QkJGOMN.png

[Sparhafoc]

D&D world isnt governed by the same scientific principles that govern ours. That's the only true answer to this question.

This ^

There's no comparable genetic mechanism in animals on our world. The only way you could try to apply any scientific understanding to the half-humans in D&D would be to consider orcs, elves, humans etc. to have a recent common ancestor and a continual gene flow between the different sub-species, then they'd be like ligers and other hybrids. But given the lore, that doesn't seem to work within the D&D world.

[Clistenes]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?

What do you think?

The rule that different species can't produce fertile offspring isn't considered true anymore...

Coyotes, jackals and wolfs can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. The same goes for brown and polar bears. Several species of felines can interbreed and produce fertile offspring...

[stoutstien]

I just turned 'half' races into unique ones and not half-breeds.
Halfelfs are just elves who are born outside of there related realm like felwild and what not.

Half orcs are wri-orcs. They share some characteristics but are as different as gnomes and halflings are.

[Anymage]

Magical things like tieflings and dragonborn break the rules because magic. Owlbears exist in D&D, and few people think that you can get them from just introducing an owl to a bear and pumping in some smooth jazz.

The main remaining catch is that humans can interbreed with elves and orcs, but elf-orc crossbreeds don't exist. Either you have something akin to ring species (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species), or you add just a touch more magic. In one of my sketched out campaigns, elf-orc unions can produce a child, but millennia of racial animosity has seeped into the genes to the point that the baby poisons the mother. Nobody has bothered to see what might happen if such a pregnancy comes to term; few people have the magical might to keep the mother alive through such torment, fewer still are cruel enough to complete an experiment that necessarily involves the horrible torture of the subject, and the vanishingly few who combine both are more likely to do something like graft on octopus tentacles and then try interbreeding you with a dinosaur instead.

[Sparhafoc]

The rule that different species can't produce fertile offspring isn't considered true anymore...

Coyotes, jackals and wolfs can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. The same goes for brown and polar bears. Several species of felines can interbreed and produce fertile offspring...

They all have very recent common ancestors: canis, panthera, and ursus subspecies are all genetically very close with other members of their genus. For comparison, coyotes and wolves diverged from a common ancestor less than 1.5 million years ago compared to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps which was about 6.5 mya.

The majority of species cannot interbreed. Exceptions prove the rule! :)

[False God]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?

What do you think?

I do not believe there is an official stance on this and aside from the fact that "race" is largely a holdover from olden days when race was actively used to describe what many now would refer to as "species" and the fact that the lore expressly says Dwarves and Elves were created but makes no mention of how humans came to be, the only real answer is "do what is best for your own game".

So, IMO....

I run that all races were magically created via their respective gods (Pelor is the human creator god in this case), all as "lesser images" of some long lost proginator race (in my setting, Empyreans/3.5 called the Titans). Basically, one god (they argue over who) found the original "specs" to that race, tweaked them and created their own race. Another god stole those plans, made their own, rinse and repeat. Io/Tiamat/Bahamut and some of the other animal-styled races are the only ones who went far enough to say "Nope, all your weird little fleshlings can't breed with our weird little fleshlings."

Tieflings represent a "taint" on the design, all races have tieflings, but the taint overrides the base to create a tiefling who may bear some resemblance to their original species, but is more tiefling than anything else. Aasimars, genasi, etc.. are the same thing. A touch of something greater that overrides the base.

I use "Star Trek" rules more or less. Humans represent a sort of "middle point" hence why they can breed with almost anything. But elves and orcs are on opposite ends, so it's harder to to have viable pregnancies. Dragonborn, Lizardfolk, Aarkroa(sp), Tabaxi and the like are off on their own spectrum. Purposefully made "too different" by their gods to breed with any other race. Powerful magical creatures (like dragons, elementals, demons and angels) have powerful magic to "help things along".

[JoeJ]

The majority of species cannot interbreed. Exceptions prove the rule! :)

"Prove" here is an archaic way of saying "test." It doesn't mean prove in the modern sense of the word. IOW, claims of exceptions are how you test the supposed rule to determine whether or not it really is a rule.

It's also important to realize that "species" is a category of analysis. It's a framework used to interpret the data about the variety of living creatures, not something actually found in the data. And it doesn't necessarily have any relevance whatsoever to the creatures inhabiting a fantasy world.

[LibraryOgre]

They all have very recent common ancestors: canis, panthera, and ursus subspecies are all genetically very close with other members of their genus. For comparison, coyotes and wolves diverged from a common ancestor less than 1.5 million years ago compared to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps which was about 6.5 mya.


Conversely, according to lore, most of the races in D&D are fairly recent creations by deities... like, not even millions of years of evolution, just a bunch of gods made things a few tens of thousands of years ago.

Their MRCA is "gods" and that's only a handful of generations, for some.

[NorthernPhoenix]

They are different species. Sometimes magic/the gods let's them interbreed anyway.

[Hytheter]

Humans actually have an innate magical power that allows them to have children with any living thing.

At least, that's my headcanon.

[Psychoalpha]

Humans actually have an innate magical power that allows them to have children with any living thing.

At least, that's my headcanon.

That certainly fits with the idea that humans tend to be depicted as an ever encroaching species, spreading outwards and contaminating ever-...

Oh snap, I think Agent Smith may have been right. >_>

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Humans are dragons.

Greedy... Like... Insanely so. More so than other races.

Territorial.

Will bone anything and make offspring. However, dragon x human relations have produced the most varied of offspring (Silverbrow Humans, anyone?)

Humans and Dragons, in D&D, share a common ancestor.

[ThePolarBear]

"Prove" here is an archaic way of saying "test."

I know, little aside:

Not really. It is a proverb that stems from latin legal procedures and Cicero quote with the meaning of "confirm". The same saying can be found in languages other than English with their current unambiguous "confirm" equivalent being used.

The fact that the phrase has been used in more recent years "improperly" - under quotes - should not make it forget what the original meaning of the proverb is (as is in places where people aren't Anglophones.)

[Sparhafoc]

"Prove" here is an archaic way of saying "test." It doesn't mean prove in the modern sense of the word. IOW, claims of exceptions are how you test the supposed rule to determine whether or not it really is a rule.

That's literally how I was using it, and the point resides therein: 'specie' is a discrete unit of categorization we use to make sense of the mess of the real world. By and large, those units make sense in the context they're used, but when speciation is recent and genomes are very similar, even with very apparent visible differences, it's not exactly clear at what moment we should be deciding that 2 populations represent different species; what percentage of difference represents the Rubicon to cross.



It's also important to realize that "species" is a category of analysis. It's a framework used to interpret the data about the variety of living creatures, not something actually found in the data. And it doesn't necessarily have any relevance whatsoever to the creatures inhabiting a fantasy world.

That's what I was saying.

[Sparhafoc]

Conversely, according to lore, most of the races in D&D are fairly recent creations by deities... like, not even millions of years of evolution, just a bunch of gods made things a few tens of thousands of years ago.

Their MRCA is "gods" and that's only a handful of generations, for some.


MRCC (most recent common creator!) :smallsmile:

[MrStabby]

That's literally how I was using it, and the point resides therein: 'specie' is a discrete unit of categorization we use to make sense of the mess of the real world. By and large, those units make sense in the context they're used, but when speciation is recent and genomes are very similar, even with very apparent visible differences, it's not exactly clear at what moment we should be deciding that 2 populations represent different species; what percentage of difference represents the Rubicon to cross.



I think Specie refers to coinage?

[da newt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

My simple answer is YES the various races are different species. "Species" is more complicated than you would think and sometimes different species can interbreed. The canines are a great example of how it can get weird - a big coyote looks almost exactly the same as a small wolf, but domestic dogs are all one species and include Yorkies, Pugs, Whippets and St Bernards (humans have messed them all up), and they can all interbreed.

BTW - Does it make a difference one way or the other?

[carrdrivesyou]

Historically speaking, "modern" humans bred with Neaderthals. Which would mean that our DNA is compatible. Considering the applications here...I would say that humanoids are all the same genus, but a different "species." Some can interbreed, but others can't. This is why we see half-elves and half-orcs, but no half-dwarves or half-gnomes. Just my thoughts..

[Jophiel]

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?
I think it's more like humans being at the core and various other species radiating out. So humans can breed with orcs and with elves but orcs and elves can't create offspring.

In biological terms, you have a ring species (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species) where the field toads can breed with the forest toads and forest toads with mountain toads but mountain toads & field toads are too distinct to breed. Despite the name, the ring species doesn't need to meet up at the ends.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think it's more like humans being at the core and various other species radiating out. So humans can breed with orcs and with elves but orcs and elves can't create offspring.


More elvish and orcish propoganda! The Voldur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238557-Voldur-Half-elf-half-orc-(3-5)-If-you-read-it-you-ll-want-to-play-it-Promise&styleid=2) lives!

[Sigreid]

At least one older edition source had the other races creator gods created their races and sometime later their leftover creation material, on its own, bundled itself up and became human with pieces of the other races integrated.

[micahaphone]

At least one older edition source had the other races creator gods created their races and sometime later their leftover creation material, on its own, bundled itself up and became human with pieces of the other races integrated.

I was literally opening this thread to post something like that, glad to hear that it was official lore at some point!

[Theodoxus]

https://i.imgur.com/QkJGOMN.png

This is kinda how I went in my homebrew world, except the progenitor race is Changeling, and other races (I call them Breeds) arose when a changeling specialized to a specific purpose (gnomes are short to help delve into hills seeking gems; dwarves are a little larger and stronger because they delved deeper seeking metals; halflings arose as cities were developed, to take care of the infrastructure/sewers; elves sought magical secrets in the Astral Sea, becoming smarter (and when they found the Feywild and explored it, they came back as Eladrin). Everyone can interbreed (since they're all just basically changelings), but the offspring is always the same breed as the mother (to escape the Chihuahua mom/Great Dane dad problem).

I also introduced Constructs (Wayfinder Warforged) as an option. While they have the same stylized look as warforged, their physical characteristic takes after a specific breed. So, you can have dwarfy looking Constructs, or elvish Constructs, etc.

[Sigreid]

I was literally opening this thread to post something like that, glad to hear that it was official lore at some point!

It was listed in the book on humans as a possible origin that explained why humans didn't have a creator god. Not presented as fact, but one of many myths/legends/theories.

[Willie the Duck]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.
If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?
What do you think?

I think that...


I do not believe there is an official stance on this and aside from the fact that "race" is largely a holdover from olden days when race was actively used to describe what many now would refer to as "species" and the fact that the lore expressly says Dwarves and Elves were created but makes no mention of how humans came to be, the only real answer is "do what is best for your own game".

...is the primary answer, with a bit also of this: D&D has for a long time tried (with uneven success) to split the difference between offering a specific game world to play around in and leaving anything unnecessary-to-define left undefined. This has gotten even more muddled once specific campaign settings have been introduced, and later when various ones (Known World/Mystara, Greyhawk, Nentir Vale, Forgotten Realms) have been considered 'default' settings for various editions. Thus the game system has some very conflicting information with regards to the various 'races,' their origins, and exactly what it means to be a D&D race.

Beyond that, D&D is not concerned with modern scientific knowledge, nor how it fits into the game world (again, except where it needs to). Whether 'species' exist in D&D is an open question right up there with whether matter is made up of atoms of various periodic-table-style (as opposed to 'fire, water, earth, air') elements. D&D concerns itself much more with the genre conventions and tropes of fantasy (many of which by this point were invented by D&D, making this in-part recursive). To that point, humans, orcs, dwarves, and elves exist, and half-elves and half-orcs (both existing in Tolkien's works) exist. Thus, elves and orcs must be able to cross-breed with humans. Does this infer any further downstream consequences such as them being the same species (or interbreedingly-close species)? You have to decide for yourself for your game.

Personally, I feel the need for half-orcs to be outdated (Gygax not wanting players to play the species he had set up as designated villains). I tend to use half-orc stats for actual orcs (whose stats in Volos are kinda disappointing) and omitting half orcs (the concept) as a distinct race (the occasional half-orc might exist in a given campaign world I run, if crossbreeding is possible, but there doesn't need to be a separate stat block for them, they can be whichever parental 'race' they most take after. Half-elves make a little sense, as they've developed this odd niche of long-lived humans but whose lives do not resemble elves very much. Whether that needs to be a discrete race or not, I'm not sure. Regardless, I define the existence of these half-races based on the tropes I want to see in my games, not based on some reference to biology.


The rule that different species can't produce fertile offspring isn't considered true anymore...

If I am remembering my History of Science course correctly, from all the way back to Linnaeus, it wasn't 'can't' but 'don't' -- that the European and North American black-striped Whatsit only do not interbreed because they don't run into each other did not mean they weren't different species because they don't run into each other. Since then we've added a whole bunch more asterisks to the definitions, but it's been muddied water for a long time.


"Prove" here is an archaic way of saying "test." It doesn't mean prove in the modern sense of the word. IOW, claims of exceptions are how you test the supposed rule to determine whether or not it really is a rule.

It's also important to realize that "species" is a category of analysis. It's a framework used to interpret the data about the variety of living creatures, not something actually found in the data. And it doesn't necessarily have any relevance whatsoever to the creatures inhabiting a fantasy world.

To the later point, yes! Species is descriptive, not proscriptive. To the former point, that is only one of at least five (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule)regularly understood meanings to the term. Your take on what Sparhafoc meant could still make sense, if using Fowler's preferred interpretation: using 'prove' to mean effective 'establish,' and thus the term meaning roughly, the exception establishes the existence of a (general) rule, because if there was no general rule, the exception wouldn't be notable as such.'

[Grey Watcher]

"Prove" here is an archaic way of saying "test." It doesn't mean prove in the modern sense of the word. IOW, claims of exceptions are how you test the supposed rule to determine whether or not it really is a rule.

There's also the different meanings of "rule" adding to the confusion. The original phrase referred to "rule" as in "law, "regulation," "edict," "commandment," etc. It did not refer to a scientific law, which is to say "the way we think things naturally work based on some combination of observation, experimentation, and deduction." It's a rule like "Thou shalt not steal," not a rule like "What goes up must come down.*"

An example of the original, pedant-approved meaning is: "Ambulances, police cars, and fire trucks are allowed break the speed limit" proves (via implication) that there exists a rule that says "Vehicles are not allowed to break the speed limit."

Of course, there's also the more casual rhetorical version: "The exception is so rare that it proves how strong the rule/correlation is in general." But I don't entirely see how this applies to this discussion.

The Wikipedia does a good job of delineating the various uses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule

*Before you counter that things in outer space don't come down, "what goes up..." is an oversimplified version of the law of gravity. It's not so much that weightlessness in space is an exception to the rule so much as the glib quote leaves out the part that distance is a factor.

All of that said, I do think that humans having some je-ne-sais-quoi that makes them an exception jives with most settings. There's a reason most of the half-whatevers other half is human. Humans have something built into them that sort of overrides the normal boundaries. In a way that makes no real sense compared to real humans, but then what in D&D does?

[Felhammer]

When D&D uses the word Race, they mean Species. Species is, however, a term reserved for Sci-Fi. Ancestry has become a popular alternative to Race but, realistically, it is still the incorrect term for what we are describing.

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs exist in D&D because they are very popular concepts in the Fantasy genre.

[Waterdeep Merch]

While standard D&D definitely means species when it says race as others have said, I'm working with another DM on making a world where the idea is that all humanoids are actually permutations of the same species with the extremeness of said permutations coming from arcana-induced mutation and not the result of divine intervention. Dragons are also part of the equation, being a far more extreme change than their 'dragonborn' cousins, who actually came first here. That same magic is what allows all of them to interbreed, though their's ultimately only a few 'half-x' pairings, with most offspring being the same as one of their parents in the same manner as blood types. Dragons being the primary exception due to their innate instability.

[JoeJ]

In my world most of the humanoid and demi-human races (to use AD&D terminology) descended from humans.

[CapnWildefyr]

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs exist in D&D because they are very popular concepts in the Fantasy genre.

Yep, thats about it. Getting into scientific discussions about made-up stuff that was tracking the LOTR trilogy and other novels will lead in circles. My recommendation is just stick with what's in the rules, don't try to explain it, if you have to, just ask why it's so important to know. If your group wasn't just chatting during a dinner break, then probably there is some other question or desire that's driving it, like a player wants to get rich by marrying a rich gnomish widow or something. Resolving that might be easier than untangling fantasy genetics. :smallbiggrin:

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean... donkeys and horses are different species..... And Mules exist...

[micahaphone]

I mean... donkeys and horses are different species..... And Mules exist...

Mules are sterile though, that's the rub, biologically speaking.

[Gignere]

They all have very recent common ancestors: canis, panthera, and ursus subspecies are all genetically very close with other members of their genus. For comparison, coyotes and wolves diverged from a common ancestor less than 1.5 million years ago compared to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps which was about 6.5 mya.

The majority of species cannot interbreed. Exceptions prove the rule! :)

Not true with birds in fact 60% of bird species can interbreed just fine.

[Sparhafoc]

Not true with birds in fact 60% of bird species can interbreed just fine.

I'm not an ornithologist, but this sounds implausible just from a purely mechanical perspective - how do their bits fit? :smallsmile:

Luckily, there's a study looking at just this:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281586627_The_Avian_Hybrids_Project_Gathering_the_ scientific_literature_on_avian_hybridization

The Avian Hybrids Project: gathering the scientific literature on avian hybridization


Figure 1 gives an overview of the incidence of hybridization in all bird orders. In total, 1714 out of 10 446 bird species (16.4%) have been documented to have hybridized with at least one other bird species in nature. When hybridization in captivity is included, this figure increases to 2204 species (21.1%).

[Millstone85]

My take is that aasimar, genasi, and tieflings, are still humans. They are just imbued with a celestial/elemental/fiendish essence that originally came from planar exposure, a pact, or intercourse with an angel/genie/devil. Similarly, though more on the headcanon side, I would imagine that feytouched humans are indistinguishable from half-elves.

That leaves half-orcs. Here, there must be some other story. Perhaps they are an experiment of Gruumsh, like in Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic. Or maybe humans and orcs are, in fact, hominids with a recent common ancestor.

[Hail Tempus]

My take is that aasimar, genasi, and tieflings, are still humans. They are just imbued with a celestial/elemental/fiendish essence that originally came from planar exposure, a pact, or intercourse with an angel/genie/devil. Similarly, though more on the headcanon side, I would imagine that feytouched humans are indistinguishable from half-elves.

That leaves half-orcs. Here, there must be some other story. Perhaps they are an experiment of Gruumsh, like in Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic. Or maybe humans and orcs are, in fact, hominids with a recent common ancestor. It's not even clear that D&D creatures have DNA. Or are made of molecules.

[Bobthewizard]

It's not even clear that D&D creatures have DNA. Or are made of molecules.

This is my favorite answer so far. :smallsmile:

[Hail Tempus]

This is my favorite answer so far. :smallsmile: It's pretty clear that many scientific laws, such as physics, work very differently in D&D. I don't expect biology to work anything like the real world.

I think the answer is that certain species can inter-breed because the gods want them to be able to do so. The Dwarven gods, on the other hand, don't want Dwarven perfection to get diluted by mixing it with Elves or other lesser species.

[Millstone85]

It's not even clear that D&D creatures have DNA. Or are made of molecules.They do appear to have hereditary traits, though. Even if the vector turns out to be water memory, speciation could still happen.

[Hail Tempus]

They do appear to have hereditary traits, though. Even if the vector turns out to be water memory, speciation could still happen. Geez, what are they teaching in schools these days? It's all based on the Four Elements and the Four Humors.

[Willie the Duck]

Geez, what are they teaching in schools these days? It's all based on the Four Elements and the Four Humors.

Kids these days! I bet they want their lessons with participation ribbons attached! Back in my day we only had Three Elements, and no Humor, and we liked it!

[Gignere]

I'm not an ornithologist, but this sounds implausible just from a purely mechanical perspective - how do their bits fit? :smallsmile:

Luckily, there's a study looking at just this:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281586627_The_Avian_Hybrids_Project_Gathering_the_ scientific_literature_on_avian_hybridization

The Avian Hybrids Project: gathering the scientific literature on avian hybridization

This is a study of actual hybridization not a study of whether species of birds can potentially crossbreed. Like the finches on various Galápagos Islands although listed as separate species, they likely can cross breed but because in the wild they are separated and don’t crossbreed and probably no one has tried to breed them it is not considered to be hybridized. Even the paper you link say the 20% is likely an underestimation of bird hybridization. This is actual hybridization not estimated of ability to crossbreed based on genetic similarity which would result in much higher estimates.

[Sparhafoc]

This is a study of actual hybridization not a study of whether species of birds can potentially crossbreed. Like the finches on various Galápagos Islands although listed as separate species, they likely can cross breed but because in the wild they are separated and don’t crossbreed and probably no one has tried to breed them it is not considered to be hybridized. Even the paper you link say the 20% is likely an underestimation of bird hybridization. This is actual hybridization not estimated of ability to crossbreed based on genetic similarity which would result in much higher estimates.

Yes: it's a study of bird species that have been observed and recorded hybridizing. Not a hypothetical how many bird species may possibly be able to breed, but that's not what the original point was. Also, while it does say that this is probably an underestimate - that doesn't cover the rather large gap between the 20% observed and recorded data and the idea forwarded of 60% of bird species interbreeding:


Not true with birds in fact 60% of bird species can interbreed just fine.

So what's the source for this 60%?

[Willie the Duck]

Right but where does the 60% number come from?

[Sparhafoc]

They do appear to have hereditary traits, though. Even if the vector turns out to be water memory, speciation could still happen.

It's a good point. There's inheritance, variability, and differential survival... so there must be a unit of genetic information.

I think the answer is 'it's magic'. :smallcool:

[Doug Lampert]

It's a good point. There's inheritance, variability, and differential survival... so there must be a unit of genetic information.

I think the answer is 'it's magic'. :smallcool:

It's magic is a fine explanation of the unit of heredity, but I don't really see why this is a question. DNA or some other method of heredity is irrelevant to the idea of species. The fact that there may not be DNA and inheritance may be based on magic simply supports the idea that degree of functional difference being greater than in a single species in our world does not guarantee that two things are different species in D&D land.

And in fact, standard D&D lore says that pretty much everything DOES interbreed with celestials, fiends, and with dragons; and that a very large number of things interbreed with humans.

They all produce viable hybrids in the wild, they all are called races not species. It's all extremely consistent with a declaration that there is only one species in D&D land with a bunch of races. There may well be particular individual crosses that simply never happen, as in a ring species in our world, but given the existence of links this isn't enough to make them different species (see Ring Species for an example from our world of non-interbreeding populations being considered the same species because there are links).

[Sparhafoc]

DNA or some other method of heredity is irrelevant to the idea of species.

Not from a scientific perspective: how would species evolve at all if there was no unit of heredity? Even though Darwin was unaware of DNA, he still posited such a unit because it's a necessity for speciation.

[Doug Lampert]

Not from a scientific perspective: how would species evolve at all if there was no unit of heredity? Even though Darwin was unaware of DNA, he still posited such a unit because it's a necessity for speciation.

You need some unit of heredity, but it can be magic, little green men, DNA, RNA, protein folding, or something else and it doesn't matter in the least which it is. What the mechanism is, is irrelevant to the idea of species. Magic works fine as such an element.

[Imbalance]

Magic, in my mind, supplants pretty much everything to do with rw science. I'm not terribly well-versed with the lore, and so, just as with science, my understanding follows a continual progression towards truth wherein I am content in my ignorance until I learn better. These are just my D&D shorthand interpretations:

Biologically, something is either living, undead, or an object. Creatures are animals, monsters, or humanoids. Plants are plants, unless they have a stat block, then they're monsters. Animals just are - I see no need to expound on evolution in a world where fossils don't appear to be a thing. Monsters are the lump sum of supernatural influences, divine meddling, and weave-induced mutation.

Humanoid is probably a misnomer on my part, but it's basically the label I put on player characters, dividing only by "race" as befits the distinction of starting stats and features and fantasy societal interactions, rife with whatever deviations from "normal characteristics" present themselves as the story unfolds. The story, then, is about the exceptions; not the rules.

[Hail Tempus]

Not from a scientific perspective: how would species evolve at all if there was no unit of heredity? Even though Darwin was unaware of DNA, he still posited such a unit because it's a necessity for speciation. Based on D&D fluff, there's no real evidence that D&D creatures actually evolved. Many of them were explicitly created by the gods (such as elves), others seem to have always existed (Aboleths) and others were created by wizards (such as Chimeras).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Based on D&D fluff, there's no real evidence that d&d creatures actually evolved. Many of them were explicitly created by the gods (such as elves), others seem to have always existed (Aboleths) and others were created by wizards (such as Chimeras).

(Continuing on this...)

And as a result, the gods could have written their own rules for how and with who they can reproduce. "Humans can create offspring with 50 different species, most of which are incapable of creating offspring with any other creature on the same list. The offspring of a human and a member of another species belongs to the half-whatever they mated with race and the basic personal properties of a human or half human child are determined by rolling 6x4d6b1 in order. Except if the other individual was a god, then we reserve the right to make something up on the spot."

In a D&D setting there is no need for any kind of hereditary genetic information. People like Darwin and Mendel were able to deduce the existence of hereditary genetic information because it makes sense in our world. In your typical d&d world? I'm not so sure.

[Clistenes]

They all have very recent common ancestors: canis, panthera, and ursus subspecies are all genetically very close with other members of their genus. For comparison, coyotes and wolves diverged from a common ancestor less than 1.5 million years ago compared to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps which was about 6.5 mya.

The majority of species cannot interbreed. Exceptions prove the rule! :)

But we aren't speaking of chimps here... we are speaking of orcs, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings...

For all we know orcs and humans had a common ancestor 200,000 years ago, and they are closer to each other than coyotes and wolves are...


Based on D&D fluff, there's no real evidence that D&D creatures actually evolved. Many of them were explicitly created by the gods (such as elves), others seem to have always existed (Aboleths) and others were created by wizards (such as Chimeras).

Regarding elves, I would take their myths with a grain of salt... they probably would choose a more beautiful story of a myth that presents them in a more positive light over a more truthful but more mundane and less uplifting version...

https://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/060325.png

[JoeJ]

But we aren't speaking of chimps here... we are speaking of orcs, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings...

For all we know orcs and humans had a common ancestor 200,000 years ago, and they are closer to each other than coyotes and wolves are...

I have orcs becoming a separate race after being driven into deep caves about 10,500 years ago. Elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes all developed within the last 9,000 years. Reptilian races are even more recent, originating from human dragon cultists who magically transformed themselves to become more like the beings they worshiped.

[suplee215]

I am unsure if this was already stated but using the word "race" was always a bit of a misnomer and inaccurate anyways going back to Tolkien's use. Given that things like dwarves and elves in that work have unrelated origins the term "race" just doesnt apply. It can also lead to some just problematic ways of talking about race but that's a whole different issue.

[Benoojian]

What if instead it is humans that don't exist? That they were originally mutts formed when too many of the god's super special chosen children interbred and that's why they can breed with just about anything. Some races have a little more resilience in their bloodlines, so you get half-elves but you don't get half-gnomes.


So a willowy elf and a stocky dwarf make a slightly plump human. This doesn't explain why a gnome and a halfling make a child twice their height but it's a start.

[KorvinStarmast]

What do you think? I think it is a non-trivial mistake to attempt to overlay Real World genetics and taxonomy onto the permutations of humanoids in a world filled with magic.

1. It's a game.
2. It's magic
3. Roll for initiative ... :smallcool:

And on a humorous note, humans and dragons seem to be very promiscuous.

Back when people had a sense of humor, one of my fellow players (who was playing a dwarf) got a little annoyed with my human Bard's attempts to seduce a lady elf (she resolutely declined, regardless of my PC's efforts)

This is almost word for word, though I may have recalled a few of them incorrectly. It's been a few decades. Our whole table erupted in laughter when he laid this on me.


"You humans are such sluts. You'll mate with any old thing: dragons, orcs, elves, devils, angels ... your libido will get you all killed and we'll have to clean up your mess - Yet Again!"

The movie "Tootsie" had recently come out. Bill Murray had timed a line perfectly that my fellow PC was referencing.

[Devils_Advocate]

Mules are sterile though, that's the rub, biologically speaking.
Are half-elves and half-orcs established as being fertile, though? How many characters are a quarter anything?

[Grey Watcher]

Are half-elves and half-orcs established as being fertile, though? How many characters are a quarter anything?

Never explicitly a quarter, but I've occasionally seen examples of a (usually human) character who has elven or orcish or something else somewhere (often fairly distant) in their ancestry. It's just that the system doesn't reflect that level of granularity. So someone whose parents are an orc and a half-orc is, as far as the game rules are concerned, an orc. But the race of a given person's grandfather on their mother's side isn't information that comes up in a typical D&D game, so the orc with a human grandfather is, in the eyes of the PCs, just another orc.

[ZorroGames]

Are half-elves and half-orcs established as being fertile, though? How many characters are a quarter anything?

No definite 5e answer I am aware of on the former. Everyone has a theory... or not.

Nothing on the latter canon in any edition I know of for the latter.

Being a Tolkienian DM I favor half elf and elf make elf. Half elf and human make human. But that is just my take.

[Man_Over_Game]

For an official reference, I think Xanathar's mentions examples as to how your heritage may have started as a half-species.

I don't have it in front of me, but it could confirm some of these questions, like if humans can be birthed from tieflings, or if half-orcs are fertile.

[Devils_Advocate]

I seem to remember reading that mules can be fertile, sometimes, but it's rare. How that compares to half-humans I've no idea; half-elves could well be more fertile than elves, for all I know. Although it might depend. If various races can produce hybrid offspring, a half-elf isn't necessarily half human. In that case, the assumption that a "half-orc" or "half-elf" is half human can probably be put down to human-centrism, like "halflings" as the term for the people who are half human height (roughly). (With all of these half-humans, one might think that "halfling" is a synonym for "half-breed", but one would be wrong.) It makes sense if Common is primarily a human language. But then practically everyone speaks Common, so I dunno about that.

Of course, there are plenty of D&D characters who explicitly have distant rather than recent fiendish, draconic, or celestial ancestry. But fiends, dragons, celestials, and more presumably are magical creatures that are magically capable of breeding with nearly anyone. Then again, most of those distant descendants of those magical creatures are specifically mostly human, aren't they? Maybe humans are just the sexiest.

[Draconi Redfir]

Are half-elves and half-orcs established as being fertile, though? How many characters are a quarter anything?

i could see at least part of that being that Half-orcs that aren't liked or very welcome in either orc or human circles may shack up with other half-orcs, meaning their children would also be half-orcs.


otherwise it's a "majority rules" thing. if a half-orc has kids with an orc, then their kids are 3/4 orc, so are classified as Orcs.

[Nagog]

D&D world isnt governed by the same scientific principles that govern ours. That's the only true answer to this question.


This ^

There's no comparable genetic mechanism in animals on our world. The only way you could try to apply any scientific understanding to the half-humans in D&D would be to consider orcs, elves, humans etc. to have a recent common ancestor and a continual gene flow between the different sub-species, then they'd be like ligers and other hybrids. But given the lore, that doesn't seem to work within the D&D world.

Typically species that are the offspring of two diverse races (Ligers, Mules, etc) are sterile due to their heritage. Considering Tieflings and Half Elves are not sterile, but we have no evidence of half-demon-half-elves, the only pseudo-science I can come up with off the top of my head is that humans naturally have more chromosomes than any other race, but when mating with a non-human, the non-human genes can mesh with the human ones, but some human chromosomes remain unused. Whether these unused human genes remain in future generations would indicate whether a human bloodline with an elvish or demonic ancestor would forever be changed to half-elf or tiefling (as the full set of human would be incomplete from one parent, thus the 100% conversion to genes compatible to create the half breed. If the human-only genes remain inert until mating with a human, the children could be either half breed or full human depending on the laws of genetics, as similarly to any other inherited trait.
I would rule that the human genetics remain, allowing the conception of children from 2 parents of different half human races, with a chance of the union between a half elf and a tiefling to produce a full human.

Understand that my understanding of genetics is that of a layman who took a biology class in college a while back. If somebody more knowledgeable on the topic would like to contribute, feel free. But this is my pseudoscience theory.

[Nagog]

Of course, there are plenty of D&D characters who explicitly have distant rather than recent fiendish, draconic, or celestial ancestry. But fiends, dragons, celestials, and more presumably are magical creatures that are magically capable of breeding with nearly anyone. Then again, most of those distant descendants of those magical creatures are specifically mostly human, aren't they? Maybe humans are just the sexiest.

Perhaps we've been mistaking humans for a nonmagical race, and their magical ability is the ability to have offspring with anybody.

Humans: The perfect Horny Bard Race. XD

[Clistenes]

I seem to remember reading that mules can be fertile, sometimes, but it's rare.

It's extremely rare for mule to be fertile, but that's not true for other hybrids:

Brown bear + polar bear = Always fertile hybrid.

Dog/wolf + Jackal = Always fertile hybrid.

Dog/wolf + Coyote = Always fertile hybrid.

Lion + tigress = Fertile only if female.

Tiger + lioness = Females are sometimes fertile.

Bactrian camel + dromedary = At least the females are fertile.

Bull + female bison = At least the females are fertile. Some males are fertile too.

Asian leopard cat + domestic cat = Most females and some males are fertile.


An interesting factor is, while dogs/wolves, coyotes and jackals can produce fertile offspring with each other, experiments showed that, if you have the hybrids reproduce with each other, they become sterile after four generations, but if they mate with pure members of the parent species, that problem didn't exist.

However, I don't know how inbred were the hybrids used in that experiment... At least some of the experiments started with a small number of closely related hybrids, so it may be that the sterility of the fourth-generation hybrids was due to inbreeding, not to their mixed heritage...

[EggKookoo]

This came up in a game and I wonder what everyone here thinks.

If humans can interbreed with elves, orcs, Tieflings does that make them all the same species? I mean they are called races and not species. Can all of the races interbreed then?

What do you think?

In my homebrewed setting, yes. Kind of.

Humans are not naturally-evolved creatures on the world, but were created by higher forces a long time ago. So long ago that no one really remembers why, and it's thought that eons before that there was an actual naturally-evolved human species that the current model was based on.

Most PC races are mutations that pop up in the population. These mutations don't tend to breed true, so elves are born from humans and probably give birth to humans themselves. There are "race" subcultures, so elves form communities, dwarves form communities, and so on. Half-elves aren't a mix, they're just another mutation type. Same with half-orcs. The two exceptions are tieflings, which are still the product of some kind of past supernatural influence on the bloodline. And dragonborn, who are a completely distinct sentient species and not biologically connected to the rest.

For NPC humanoid types like orcs, goblins, bugbears, and so on, those also originated as a mutated branch off from the main human tree, but those mutations were such that they bred true. So orcs make more orcs, goblins make more goblins, etc. And they can't breed back into the PC races. Such races can theoretically appear within the PC race population but it's very rare and the sad reality is they're often terminated at birth to avoid "contamination." Half-orcs in particular suffer a significant amount of prejudice as people often fear that mating half-orcs could start producing full orcs. There is no evidence of that and it's not even certain the half-orc and orc mutations are related aside from a similarity in outward appearance.

I like SF-ish settings...

[Sigreid]

Are half-elves and half-orcs established as being fertile, though? How many characters are a quarter anything?

The old FR box set stated that 2 half elves create more half elves. There was a town that's population was nearly all 2nd and higher generation half elves.