Is the Artificer a disappointing class?

[bendking]

I feel like the Artificer doesn't really fill a role that hasn't been filled before, and doesn't fill any role better than other classes other than magic item crafter and user.
Is there something I'm missing or is the Artificer just kind of lackluster?

[Galithar]

I feel like the Artificer doesn't really fill a role that hasn't been filled before, and doesn't fill any role better than other classes other than magic item crafter and user.
Is there something I'm missing or is the Artificer just kind of lackluster?

I mean I guess it depends on what you are looking for.

It's a pretty versatile class and can do some things better. It's easy to make a Artificer that's better with Thieves tools then a Rogue for example due to the guaranteed access to the Gloves of Thievery.

It's got pretty good consistent damage at range or in melee, though I doubt it's out doing anyone on either.

Most importantly though it's a half caster that uses intelligence. And it is the only one of those in official content.

If you want it to be THE go to for damage, or control or another such role then the answer is "no, it doesn't out perform every class in a specific role"

It definitely has a place in a lot of games and everyone I know that has played one has been happy with it.

[Contrast]

everyone I know that has played one has been happy with it.

I have played an alchemist (which I admit is probably the worst option) and was very underwhelmed to the extent I've soured on giving the other subclasses a go. I just felt like an incredibly rubbish wizard with a couple extra magic items.

It does some things other classes don't do but my experience at least was that it did them in a way that didn't make up for what you were losing out on. I was pretty hype for the potential but disappointed by the implementation.

[Sindal]

They make crafting viable. (Assuming time is given for it)
Something that is insanely unviable for everyone else.

That alone makes it shine to me. They cover some unique ground without outvalueing a previous class.

[Dankus Memakus]

I've played an artillerist up to third level and I really feel like I play similar to a cleric with much better cantrip damage. I toss out some heals and blast away with firebolt and my turret. I dont think it's underwhelming at all. I out damage our barbarian right now and I can come pretty close to the rogues sneak attack damage.

[Contrast]

They make crafting viable.

Do they?

You have to wait until level 10 and even then the main use seems to be mass producing healing potions (depending if your DM uses the crafting rules in Xanathars which mean you need to aquire instructions on how to create each item individually and then hunt down monster parts from an associated CR of enemy - at that point the artificer ability does very little as most of the time is probably spent doing that rather than actually crafting the thing for common/uncommon items which is the only thing they get any benefit on).

[HappyDaze]

With infusions, they can equip fellow party members with the exact type of magical weapons that the PCs want/need. Frustrated that magical halberds and hand crossbows don't tend to show up in treasure hordes? The Artificer is an answer.

[stoutstien]

Personally I've been pleasantly surprised on how much I like the official version. I thought that a class more modeled after the warlock would work best for it but as, it has be solid.
It's a force multiplier that has support and adequate damage potential.

My only complaint is lack of cantrips. They almost need to be able to prepare them everyday like spells or get a few more.

[Galithar]

I have played an alchemist (which I admit is probably the worst option) and was very underwhelmed to the extent I've soured on giving the other subclasses a go. I just felt like an incredibly rubbish wizard with a couple extra magic items.

It does some things other classes don't do but my experience at least was that it did them in a way that didn't make up for what you were losing out on. I was pretty hype for the potential but disappointed by the implementation.

You're the first person I've talked to that player an Alchemist. Everyone else had played Artillerist or Battlesmith.

I will say that Alchemist LOOKS bad and I tend to forget it's an option.

Artificers would be extremely powerful in low magic settings. Their ability to produce magic items means they will have an edge when magic items are rare. On the opposite end they lose a little bit of oomphf if the magic items are exceedingly easy to attain.

Like I said before if you're looking to be the best at X. Well you'll probably be disappointed, but if you want reliable contribution and the ability to make someone else better then the best? Artificer makes a great fifth wheel. You need some core power in your group already, but what the Artificer brings to the table is not insignificant.

Have a melee heavy party? Artillerist sits back with Fire Bolt and Scorching Ray while he sends a protector in the Barbarians pocket. To give him and the fighter 1d8+4 THP every round.

Lots of mobs? Now he gives the Barbarian a Flamethrower to hold. Make it tiny with legs and it can just chill on his shoulder spewing fire for 2d8 damage, all while the Artillerist stays in the back.

Plus at level 7 you basically get a limited use Paladin Aura that keys off your Int. Plus it can boost ability checks, especially useful for counterspell (obviously someone else is casting the counterspell since Flash of Genius takes your reaction) or maybe you just REALLY need someone to go first in a combat. An extra +4-5 goes a long way towards that.

You've got a lot of options as an Artillerist, but Battlesmith's get their Steel Defender, which while I don't think it is as good as the cannons it is still useful, especially if you play with any form of Flanking.

Arcane Jolt is an awesome way to get people up. If you cast healing word, you can't command your Steel Defender or cast with your action. But Arcane Jolt to get 2d6 healing while still getting your Steel Defender to attack? Yes please. Sure it's only 4 or 5 times a day but how many times do you expect to need to get someone up in a day? Plus if you know you won't need it 2d6 extra damage is a nice little mini smite. (Edit: Also I just realized Healing Word isn't on their list anyways, so this is a great way to get a bonus action heal on a Battlesmith)

At 11th level put Enlarge into an Item and use it on your Steel Defender for extra Steel Defender shenanigans (okay, I admit there are much better uses for this feature, but it actually becomes viable if your DM let's your Steel Defender take the "use an item" action to do this themselves and therefore take the concentration. Though still better choices... I just want a giant Steel Doggo okay!!)

And none of this begins to touch the infusions that they get. I really think the Artificer has a lot going for them, with the notable exception of Alchemist which I find to be lackluster.

[MaxWilson]

Do they?

You have to wait until level 10 and even then the main use seems to be mass producing healing potions (depending if your DM uses the crafting rules in Xanathars which mean you need to aquire instructions on how to create each item individually and then hunt down monster parts from an associated CR of enemy - at that point the artificer ability does very little as most of the time is probably spent doing that rather than actually crafting the thing for common/uncommon items which is the only thing they get any benefit on).

Mass produce wands of Magic Missile instead.

[Contrast]

Mass produce wands of Magic Missile instead.

Having a number of disposable wands of Magic Missile is indeed good. But this is hardly something unique to artificers - before level 10 you're no better at crafting them than anyone else.

After level 10, I'm not convinced gold is going to be the limiting factor so the main benefit is you can produce 1 wand per (1/2 week + time to hunt down a CR4-8 creature) vs (2 weeks + time to hunt down a CR 4-8 creature).

That is certainly a thing. But its difficult to get hype about my 20 wands of Magic Missile when the bard has 5 and just cast Animate Objects.

More generally I feel like a DM is either going to be willing to let shenanigans like that fly (and will allow time for it either way) or they won't and attempts to mass produce anything will be problematic.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like the Artificer doesn't really fill a role that hasn't been filled before, and doesn't fill any role better than other classes other than magic item crafter and user.
Is there something I'm missing or is the Artificer just kind of lackluster?

I find the artificer to be a poor fit to D&D 5e unless you are in:
a. A high magic setting game (which I do not run)
b. In an Eberron setting game.

But one of my players is doing one and is having fun with it. So we roll with it.

His first ever infusion ended up being a cloak of the manta ray, which last session meant that, with him swimming along, the small boat that the party recovered was not overloaded and they made it to port.

What I dislike about it most is 'too many fiddly bits' but my player likes that a lot, and he's real good about keeping track of details.

[HappyDaze]

I find the artificer to be a poor fit to D&D 5e unless you are in:
a. A high magic setting game (which I do not run)
b. In an Eberron setting game.

But one of my players is doing one and is having fun with it. So we roll with it.

His first ever infusion ended up being a cloak of the manta ray, which last session meant that, with him swimming along, the small boat that the party recovered was not overloaded and they made it to port.

What I dislike about it most is 'too many fiddly bits' but my player likes that a lot, and he's real good about keeping track of details.

If that cloak was his first ever infusion, then he was created at 6ht level (or higher). In that case, yes, there are a lot of fiddly bits to keep track of from the start.

[Pex]

The only new thing it provides is to custom your own limited magic items and allow more attunement for magic item rich games, which Eberron campaigns tend to be. It doesn't really offer a new niche, but what it does do is allow you different game mechanics for melee, range, or support. It is subjective good or bad as opposed to objective. If you absolutely must have something new and unique then artificer won't satiate. However, if you want to be a melee expert without being a barbarian or paladin again or a range expert without being a warlock or blast sorcerer again or support expert without being a bard or cleric again, artificer gives you another way of doing so.

[stoutstien]

i have not played an alchemist yet but i do have one play with one. a lot of it rides on the individual DM ruling on if multiple different elixirs count as unique effects as far as stacking is concerned. the other hurdle is basic action economy. the player in question has been using a familiar gained from the ritual feat to allow the elixirs to be applied without sucking up the player's actions. he built in a space in the fighters armor to preload the elixirs and places the familiar(rat) in it. the plan at lv 11 is to install the SSI in the armor as well to add melf's acid arrow as an option. it is a weak spell but the 1/2 damage on miss is nice + shoulder mounted acid cannon.

wont top and DPS/DPR charts but overall they have had a blast.

[Theodoxus]

I bolted the PF alchemist bombs onto the Artificer's alchemist subclass. It gives a little more oomph without having to resort to only cantrips. Though the "level+Int mod" per day is still a limiting factor.

[MaxWilson]

Having a number of disposable wands of Magic Missile is indeed good. But this is hardly something unique to artificers - before level 10 you're no better at crafting them than anyone else.

After level 10, I'm not convinced gold is going to be the limiting factor so the main benefit is you can produce 1 wand per (1/2 week + time to hunt down a CR4-8 creature) vs (2 weeks + time to hunt down a CR 4-8 creature).

That is certainly a thing. But its difficult to get hype about my 20 wands of Magic Missile when the bard has 5 and just cast Animate Objects.

More generally I feel like a DM is either going to be willing to let shenanigans like that fly (and will allow time for it either way) or they won't and attempts to mass produce anything will be problematic.

Sounds like we basically agree: Uncommon magic items are something the DM will either let you mass produce or they won't. But if they do let you mass produce them, then gold isn't going to be a limiting factor, and I presume that ingredients won't be either because of timeframe concerns, so where a wizard could kill 5 [whatever Magic Missile monster, maybe Spectators?]s and then spend 10 weeks turning them into 5 wands of Magic Missile, an Artificer could kill 20 of them and spend 10 weeks turning them into 20 wands of Magic Missile. Killing 20 doesn't take much more time than killing 5 unless you have to hunt each one down individually as a separate adventure, and if you're having to hunt them down individually then I'd say you're in the situation where the DM isn't letting you mass-produce the items at all.

But if there's some kind of "dread isle of [XYZ]" where you go to get the ingredients, you can probably accumulate ingredients a lot quicker than you can actually turn them into magic items, and Artificer will have an edge there.

Overall I think wizard is still far stronger (a Necromancer with 12 skeletons, each with a longbow +1, will get far more mileage out of those 12 Uncommon items than an Artificer would out of 12 wands of Magic Missile--and of course the wizard has much stronger spellcasting). But if you think of an Artificer as sort of an alt-Paladin or alt-S&B fighter with a gadgeteer theme, and think of it as a fighter with 5-7 Batman gadgets to use per day, it becomes much more appealing.

I would totally play a Changeling Moon Druid 2/Artillerist 3 as a 34-HP grizzly bear with a flamethrower mounted on its back. Powerful? Not especially. But not weak either, and not boring.

TL;DR I would only be disappointed with the Artificer if I were expecting it to compete with wizards/bards/druids/divine souls via magic items, or if I were expecting it to compete with Eldritch Knights.

[Luccan]

I don't think a class has to fill an important niche better than others to justify its existence, just fulfill an archetype. Which Artificer does, by being the only practical way to play a magic-item crafter in games that don't have a lot of downtime. It also finishes the half-caster grouping by providing an Int option. That said, I've seen little complaint about the class as a whole, Alchemist gets some flack, but the other two subclasses seem perfectly functional and are on a decent chassis.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I like them, but I understand where it can be disappointing. It's fiddly, which is going to be a no-sell to a lot of people right out the gate. It's not especially powerful, merely keeping up, which means it's going to get overshadowed by some of the stronger options already on the table. It's also highly campaign dependent, as they shine best post-10 in a game that's going to give them plenty of time and/or resources to manufacture goodies.

I personally like them because they're pretty good at utility thanks to a wide assortment of tools and spellcasting and they're very good at buffing others. I feel like using the infusions on yourself is a poor use of resources, and that sort of thing's just not going to sit well with everyone. It's like how being an effective wizard can sometimes mean the barbarian thinks you never do anything- they're forgetting how much mileage they've been getting out of that +1 greataxe, or how many times the +1 shield has saved the paladin. Your contribution is significant, but not very flashy.

[samcifer]

I think the artificer class is actually pretty good. You can go the single-stat (for casting and attacking) in the Battle Smith, play a ranged blaster as an artillerist, or support with some striking as an achemist. If you can buy a basic set of half-plate armor and a basic shield, you can get up to 23 AC by level 14 without buying or finding any magical gear so long as you have 14+ dex.

I've build several lv. 14 warforged characters and have gotten up to 26AC just from the defense infusion, repulsion shield and crafting a cloak and ring of protection along with 16 dEx, the medium armor master feat, and basic versions of half-plate and a shield.

I thing arties do best in campaigns with low amounts of magic gear for loot or sale and/or a stingy dm.

I like all 3 subclasses and have even already played A LV. 6 battle smith.

[MaxWilson]

The oddest thing about the Artificer is how levels 12-20 switch from being about being an inventor/creator of magical gadgets to being a consumer of magical gizmos.

The 11th level ability to make blast cannon or warding stone is nice, but after that, your superpower is the ability to wear lots of bling by attuning extra items. The value of that feature is going to be highly DM-dependent and frankly I'm a little bit skeptical that it will be satisfying: when you're a 17th level Artificer who feels like you ought to be able to make a self-propelled mechanical fortress or something, your superpower instead is that you get to wear your 4th and 5th favorite attuneable magic items at the same time as your top three favorites and all of your favorite non-attunement magical items. So you're probably just getting to wear your 7th and 8th favorite (or so) items, and in fact you might not even have that many worthwhile items.

If your high-level feature is "I get to attune the extra Helm of Telepathy that nobody else in the party wants to attune," is that really going to satisfy the urge to play a gadgeteer? I'm skeptical. Only if your DM is giving out loads and loads of legendary magic items will the extra attunement slots feel satisfying compared to the opportunity cost.

If high-level Artificers got advantages while making rare/very rare/legendary items as well as Uncommon, the extra slots would be more relevant.

[stoutstien]

The oddest thing about the Artificer is how levels 12-20 switch from being about being an inventor/creator of magical gadgets to being a consumer of magical gizmos.

The 11th level ability to make blast cannon or warding stone is nice, but after that, your superpower is the ability to wear lots of bling by attuning extra items. The value of that feature is going to be highly DM-dependent and frankly I'm a little bit skeptical that it will be satisfying: when you're a 17th level Artificer who feels like you ought to be able to make a self-propelled mechanical fortress or something, your superpower instead is that you get to wear your 4th and 5th favorite attuneable magic items at the same time as your top three favorites and all of your favorite non-attunement magical items. So you're probably just getting to wear your 7th and 8th favorite (or so) items, and in fact you might not even have that many worthwhile items.

If your high-level feature is "I get to attune the extra Helm of Telepathy that nobody else in the party wants to attune," is that really going to satisfy the urge to play a gadgeteer? I'm skeptical. Only if your DM is giving out loads and loads of legendary magic items will the extra attunement slots feel satisfying compared to the opportunity cost.

If high-level Artificers got advantages while making rare/very rare/legendary items as well as Uncommon, the extra slots would be more relevant.

I mostly agree but I see why they didn't for balance stance. A see enough items on the replicable items to fill up the extra slots without feeling like I have any real stinkers.

All those nice to have but not needed attunements work wonders with the capstone as well.

[Dark.Revenant]

The primary reason Artificer gets additional attunement slots is so that they can personally use all of their infusions, even if they require attunement. You'll notice they have an equal number of infusions as attunement slots once they're up to 3+.

[MaxWilson]

The primary reason Artificer gets additional attunement slots is so that they can personally use all of their infusions, even if they require attunement. You'll notice they have an equal number of infusions as attunement slots once they're up to 3+.

But many infusions like magic armor don't even require attunement, and the ones that do via Replicate Magic Item are generally pretty mediocre, even the 14th level ones.

High-level Artificers look more disappointing than Artificer 11/Wizard X.

[stoutstien]

But many infusions like magic armor don't even require attunement, and the ones that do via Replicate Magic Item are generally pretty mediocre, even the 14th level ones.

High-level Artificers look more disappointing than Artificer 11/Wizard X.

Wizard dip os always tempting due to how much they get from 1lv slots.
Artillerist's lv 15 feature for half over and double cannon is probably the best of the high level effects out side of lv 20.

[MaxWilson]

Wizard dip os always tempting due to how much they get from 1lv slots.
Artillerist's lv 15 feature for half over and double cannon is probably the best of the high level effects out side of lv 20.

Agreed, it is the best of them, and then once you're at level 15 you'd probably want to go level 17 for Wall of Force, and then you're probably intended to want to go to 20 for the capstone... but how much is that half/cover double cannon really worth? Will you really be happy at level 20 if your main difference from level 11 is double cannon and 5th level spells, especially with spell slots so limited that it's hard to afford double cannons? Will it feel like a level 20 character?

I'm skeptical, but maybe it's better if I've got my Fighter hat on. Maybe I should be comparing double flamethrowers to going from 3 to 4 attacks per round, instead of to True Polymorph/Simulacrum/Forcecage/Planar Binding/etc.

Edit: I guess at-will 6d8 + 4d6+d8 (45) damage in an at-will AoE isn't too bad. It's pretty close to warlock damage, only short-ranged and AoE, and some of the damage is save-for-half instead of save-for-none. On the other hand, warlocks also get True Polymorph/Forcecage/etc.

[Misterwhisper]

Artificer is a good base class but their subclasses are wonky to me.

Alchemist is pretty blah and really does not add much, but it gets the Alchemical savant ability that can add int to damaging spells of certain kinds.

Artillerist is my personal favorite of the bunch but the whole summon a turret thing just screams, “we think this is cool in pc games so we are putting it in” also the level 5 arcane firearm ability adds 1d8 to artificer spells, seems odd to do that and not just add int. it also is weird to me that artillerist and alchemist get so similar an ability.

Battlesmith is great as a bladesinger dip, but it is odd to me that the more weapon based combatant gets the pet, that should have been its own subclass. They should have gotten the melee cantrips as bonuses. I think it should be more like a magus and channel spells through their weapon.

[stoutstien]

Agreed, it is the best of them, and then once you're at level 15 you'd probably want to go level 17 for Wall of Force, and then you're probably intended to want to go to 20 for the capstone... but how much is that half/cover double cannon really worth? Will you really be happy at level 20 if your main difference from level 11 is double cannon and 5th level spells, especially with spell slots so limited that it's hard to afford double cannons? Will it feel like a level 20 character?

I'm skeptical, but maybe it's better if I've got my Fighter hat on. Maybe I should be comparing double flamethrowers to going from 3 to 4 attacks per round, instead of to True Polymorph/Simulacrum/Forcecage/Planar Binding/etc.

Edit: I guess at-will 6d8 + 4d6+d8 (45) damage in an at-will AoE isn't too bad. It's pretty close to warlock damage, only short-ranged and AoE, and some of the damage is save-for-half instead of save-for-none. On the other hand, warlocks also get True Polymorph/Forcecage/etc.

Toss on SSI with shatter or web if you are using flamethrowers. (Weird rule interaction with web not sticking until they start turn but not burnt away until your next turn so extra 2d4)
tiny servant or something work here.

I don't think any half caster will challenge the reigning power of full casters or warlocks (sort of).
A closer comparison is probably paladin which I think they line up pretty well with.

[MaxWilson]

Toss on SSI with shatter or web if you are using flamethrowers. (Weird rule interaction with web not sticking until they start turn but not burnt away until your next turn so extra 2d4)
tiny servant or something work here.

I don't think any half caster will challenge the reigning power of full casters or warlocks (sort of).
A closer comparison is probably paladin which I think they line up pretty well with.

I agree, Paladin is a pretty good comparison.

On reflection I've decided that Artificer 17/Hexblade 2/Life Cleric 1 (with Hexblade and Life Cleric levels coming around levels 4-7ish) would be fun to play in the same way as a Sharpshooter is. You still eventually get Wall of Force and full Artificer slots, you have a good at-will damaging action and a good at-will damaging bonus action, you eventually have pretty excellent AC if you use your own magic armor/shield/partial cover bonus, you have short-rest spell slots for making turrets, you can bless/heal PCs when necessary or toss around webs, and you have a good nova option via Hexblade's Curse. And you get all of this while pretending to be a gadgeteer instead of a spellcaster.

The missing secret ingredient is Warlock 2 to turn an Artificer's mediocre at-will cantrips into pretty good at-will cantrips.

BTW I've also concluded that the Artificer's level 9 "exploding cannon" ability is better than it looks at first. You spend one round before combat setting up the flamethrower, and then during combat you bonus action to move 15' + deal 3d8, then move out of range and spend your action to detonate the cannon. 3d8 of bonus action flamethrower + 3d8 of exploding cannon = 6d8 (27) AoE damage, (almost) the same as a Fireball, but it only costs you a first-level slot (and two actions). If I told you there was a subclass that let you cast Fireball with a first level spell slot, but it required your action and your bonus action to cast, you'd think it was a good deal, right? Artillerist is that class.

[stoutstien]

I agree, Paladin is a pretty good comparison.

On reflection I've decided that Artificer 17/Hexblade 2/Life Cleric 1 (with Hexblade and Life Cleric levels coming around levels 4-7ish) would be fun to play in the same way as a Sharpshooter is. You still eventually get Wall of Force and full Artificer slots, you have a good at-will damaging action and a good at-will damaging bonus action, you eventually have pretty excellent AC if you use your own magic armor/shield/partial cover bonus, you have short-rest spell slots for making turrets, you can bless/heal PCs when necessary or toss around webs, and you have a good nova option via Hexblade's Curse. And you get all of this while pretending to be a gadgeteer instead of a spellcaster.

The missing secret ingredient is Warlock 2 to turn an Artificer's mediocre at-will cantrips into pretty good at-will cantrips.

BTW I've also concluded that the Artificer's level 9 "exploding cannon" ability is better than it looks at first. You spend one round before combat setting up the flamethrower, and then during combat you bonus action to move 15' + deal 3d8, then move out of range and spend your action to detonate the cannon. 3d8 of bonus action flamethrower + 3d8 of exploding cannon = 6d8 (27) AoE damage, same as a Fireball, but it only costs you a first-level slot (and two actions). If I told you there was a subclass that let you cast Fireball with a first level spell slot, but it required your action and your bonus action to cast, you'd think it was a good deal, right? Artillerist is that class.

I'm eyeing a artillerist 17/ warlock 3 build. Grabbing great old one, pack of tome, book of all rituals, and aspect of the moon.

The only thing scarier than an artificer crafting is one that never needs to sleep.
familiar with SSI
All the rituals
More cantrips
Short rest slots
Silent communication

Not going to win any damage contests but I don't think I'd ever possibly be bored with it.

[jaappleton]

.....Yes, and also no.

Does the Artificer work? Yes. It does what it sets out to do: It supports parties in a unique and (pardon the pun) inventive way.

Does it justify its existence, as in 'could that have been done better as a subclass of ______'? Yes. It should exist.

Is it exciting? .....Not to me. Perhaps its because of how juicy some other classes are, with what they bring to the table, but I have never looked at the Artificer and said to myself, "Yeah this is so much better than ______". I've never said that about it. I've never had a concept that could be achieved best through the artificer. Whenever I'm halfway through an Artificer build, I've always thought "This is so underpowered compared to if I made it a _____". Its unique. Is it good? Its... Fine. Just a thorough 'meh'. I do think a big issue with it could be fixed just by letting them pick either cantrips OR a fighting style.

[MaxWilson]

I'm eyeing a artillerist 17/ warlock 3 build. Grabbing great old one, pack of tome, book of all rituals, and aspect of the moon.

The only thing scarier than an artificer crafting is one that never needs to sleep.
familiar with SSI
All the rituals
More cantrips
Short rest slots
Silent communication

Not going to win any damage contests but I don't think I'd ever possibly be bored with it.

Book of Ancient Secrets seems like kind of a waste on a Warlock 3--you'll only get rituals up to 2nd level. You'd probably get more out of Ritual Caster feat. Also if you're playing with spell slots instead of spell points, it seems like kind of a waste to burn 2nd level spell slots on Artillerist turrets instead of first-level slots.

The nice thing about taking a full caster level like Cleric 1 or Divine Soul 1 is that it gets you full spell slots, including that nice 2nd 5th level slot for 2x Wall of Force instead of only one per day. Just pick a full caster with lots of first-level benefits. I like Life Cleric for the heavy armor, Bless/Shield of Faith/Cure Wounds/Protection From Evil options and minor healing benefits, but Divine Soul or Wild Sorc for saving throw bonuses has potential as well. Shadow Sorc has some potential too.

[KorvinStarmast]

If that cloak was his first ever infusion, then he was created at 6ht level (or higher). In that case, yes, there are a lot of fiddly bits to keep track of from the start.
Well, the way that V 2 of the UA presented it, Replicate Magic item doesn't unlock at 6, it unlocks at 2. (Page 13) Now that he has the Eberron book, we have to review what changed.

Replicate Magic Item
Prerequisite: See below
Using this infusion, you replicate a particular magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple
times; each time you do so, choose a different magic item that you can make with it, picking from
the Replicable Magic Items tables below. If a table has a level in its title, you must be of at least that level in this class to choose an item from the table.
The first table has no level it its title. I'll need to check the Eberron book to check for updates.


In the tables, an item’s entry tells you whether the item requires attunement. See the item’s description in the Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information about it, including the type of object required for its making.

Replicable Magic Items
Magic Item Attunement
Alchemy jug No
Bag of holding No
Cap of water breathing No
Cloak of the manta ray No
Goggles of night No
Lantern of revealing No
Rope of climbing No
Sending stones No
Wand of magic detection No
Wand of secrets No
Rising from the Last War: a neat book for the players who want to be in an Eberron campaign, but a real pain for a different setting.

[stoutstien]

Book of Ancient Secrets seems like kind of a waste on a Warlock 3--you'll only get rituals up to 2nd level. You'd probably get more out of Ritual Caster feat. Also if you're playing with spell slots instead of spell points, it seems like kind of a waste to burn 2nd level spell slots on Artillerist turrets instead of first-level slots.

The nice thing about taking a full caster level like Cleric 1 or Divine Soul 1 is that it gets you full spell slots, including that nice 2nd 5th level slot for 2x Wall of Force instead of only one per day. Just pick a full caster with lots of first-level benefits. I like Life Cleric for the heavy armor, Bless/Shield of Faith/Cure Wounds/Protection From Evil options and minor healing benefits, but Divine Soul or Wild Sorc for saving throw bonuses has potential as well. Shadow Sorc has some potential too.

probably right on the ritual part of this. I forgot it was half level not full level.
The spell slot idea was to use get aid and Thp every SR.

At the same time wizards arcane recovery would get 2 extra lv one slots for the same level investment on top of the other goodies.

Too bad sculpt spell doesn't work with SSI

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Fun thought for Alchemist. Does your DM consider CoffeeLock bad or okay? I know it goes both ways, but my group in general finds infinite low magic doesn't really make you any more powerful than having significant higher level magic.

But with the CoffeeArtificer we don't even have that much power.

Same basic premise, take Lock 3, No Sleep Inovcation. You get 6-8 Short Rests a night with all but the last one being used to create Experimental Elixers.

Drawbacks: No HitDice for healing, no LR abilities, no Artificer Spell Slots.

Advantages: So long as you actually manage your down time and days off and keep on top of things you essentially have unlimited Healing, Enhance Ability, Minor Flight, etc, etc.

I've actually been having a lot of success and lot of fun without overshadowing or coming off as powerful playing a Ghallandra Halfling with the build (Currently is a Lock 3/Artificer 3/Life Cleric 1) Along with some good skill and tool choices he's our trap finder, lock picker, healer and support unit.

[bendking]

Regarding a comparison to the Paladin: I think the Paladin is a much stronger class. Like, seriously better.

[stoutstien]

Regarding a comparison to the Paladin: I think the Paladin is a much stronger class. Like, seriously better.

Anecdotal or theorycraft?
I'm not denying the overall paladin class but o don't think artificer is that far off pound for pound.

*They're also terrifying in the same party together. You will only fail saves you want to.

[MaxWilson]

probably right on the ritual part of this. I forgot it was half level not full level.
The spell slot idea was to use get aid and Thp every SR.

At the same time wizards arcane recovery would get 2 extra lv one slots for the same level investment on top of the other goodies.

Too bad sculpt spell doesn't work with SSI

Aid already lasts for 8 hours, and 2nd level Aid only gives you 5 HP anyway. Do you really need Aid every short rest?

If the proposal is wizard 3 instead of warlock 3, I'd say "naw, getting a strong at-will action to go with your at-will bonus action is too valuable." But you could go wizard 1/warlock 2 to get a second 5th level slot and one spell slot of Arcane Recovery... only, I think one spell slot isn't worth giving up heavy armor and access to Bless/Shield of Faith/Protection From Evil/etc. for.

Artillerist 17/Hexblade 2/Life Cleric 1 in plate armor +2 with a repelling shield +1 is AC 23, then partial cover from your turret makes it AC 25, and Shield of Faith on top of that can give you AC 27, unless you'd rather have Blur for disadvantage to your enemies instead. Then you spend your turns inflicting 6d8 (27) in an AoE plus 4d10+20ish (42ish)... you could absolutely DESTROY a horde of dolgrims single-handedly, even better than a high-level Champion could. A 20th level paladin would be dead meat if he tried to handle 15 dolgrims at once but you could easily handle 150.


Regarding a comparison to the Paladin: I think the Paladin is a much stronger class. Like, seriously better.

Seriously better? Do tell.

[stoutstien]

Fill me on the hexblade angle. I don't see what it offers over other patrons.

[MaxWilson]

Fill me on the hexblade angle. I don't see what it offers over other patrons.

Doesn't really matter. The main thing is to have a strong at-will action besides Thunderclap, which only works on groups, and the secondary thing is to get more low-level spell slots on a short rest. In this particular case I picked Hexblade because I value having an emergency nova capability from Hexblade's Curse (when you need a nova you usually really need it) and because I love Wrathful Smite lockdowns, but you could pick whatever. In games where Cthulock telepathy is two-way per the original PHB implication, I might pick that instead.

[stoutstien]

Doesn't really matter. The main thing is to have a strong at-will action besides Thunderclap, which only works on groups, and the secondary thing is to get more low-level spell slots on a short rest. In this particular case I picked Hexblade because I value having an emergency nova capability from Hexblade's Curse (when you need a nova you usually really need it) and because I love Wrathful Smite lockdowns, but you could pick whatever. In games where Cthulock telepathy is two-way per the original PHB implication, I might pick that instead.

Got ya. Only thing holding it back is MaDness. Could be fun.

*Ill keep my 1st printing PHB as well.

[MaxWilson]

Got ya. Only thing holding it back is MaDness. Could be fun.

Yep, it's a little bit MAD, but you don't have to max both Int and Cha: 18/18 would work just fine, and even 18/16 probably would still be fun.

It's worth mentioning that you get AC 25 by Tier 4 (plate armor +2 and shield of repulsion +1 and half-cover +2) plus easy access to Blur/Shield of Faith/Protection From Evil/Sanctuary (your choice which to concentrate on) and Shield. Your turrets don't benefit from that great AC, but frankly if an enemy wants to spend lots of time and attention attacking an AC 18 85 HP turret that only cost you 1 first-level spell slot to create, you're probably happy to let them do so.

[Voidhawk]

Fun thought for Alchemist. Does your DM consider CoffeeLock bad or okay? I know it goes both ways, but my group in general finds infinite low magic doesn't really make you any more powerful than having significant higher level magic.

But with the CoffeeArtificer we don't even have that much power.

Same basic premise, take Lock 3, No Sleep Inovcation. You get 6-8 Short Rests a night with all but the last one being used to create Experimental Elixers.

Drawbacks: No HitDice for healing, no LR abilities, no Artificer Spell Slots.

Advantages: So long as you actually manage your down time and days off and keep on top of things you essentially have unlimited Healing, Enhance Ability, Minor Flight, etc, etc.

I've actually been having a lot of success and lot of fun without overshadowing or coming off as powerful playing a Ghallandra Halfling with the build (Currently is a Lock 3/Artificer 3/Life Cleric 1) Along with some good skill and tool choices he's our trap finder, lock picker, healer and support unit.

If you want to go Coffee-build, why not just be a Warforged rather than dip Warlock? They explicitly don't need to sleep, and can't even be put to sleep magically.

A Coffee Sorcerer/Warlock gets a bonus because Sorcerer can convert the Warlock spell-slots every short rest into Sorcery Points, and from there into any slot they want. If you all you want is an extra 8hrs of crafting each day, a Warforged with a built-in 3D-Printer is the way to go.

Incidentally, I'm considering playing a Warforged Hexblade 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 2+ in the next Eberron game my group runs. Thought I might start them with a vow of non-violence (against sentients), and name them Baymax :smallwink: .

[stoutstien]

If you want to go Coffee-build, why not just be a Warforged rather than dip Warlock? They explicitly don't need to sleep, and can't even be put to sleep magically.

A Coffee Sorcerer/Warlock gets a bonus because Sorcerer can convert the Warlock spell-slots every short rest into Sorcery Points, and from there into any slot they want. If you all you want is an extra 8hrs of crafting each day, a Warforged with a built-in 3D-Printer is the way to go.

Incidentally, I'm considering playing a Warforged Hexblade 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 2+ in the next Eberron game my group runs. Thought I might start them with a vow of non-violence (against sentients), and name them Baymax :smallwink: .

Warforged don't need sleep but can suffer for exhaustion if the DM uses the rules for XGE.
Any 24 hours gone with a long rest can result In exhaustion where aspect of the Moon explicitly states that you can spend your long rest preforming light activities.
Doesn't help the Alchemist to stack up a ton of elixirs but if someone wanted to go all in on crafting you can squeeze 6 extra hours a day out.

[Arkhios]

I think not. As jaappleton said earlier, the class has unique and inventive new tricks up their sleeves.

Contrary to what he said, however, I find that Artificer is ...I wouldn't say 'exciting', per se
... a very interesting class. The way they cast their spells is very different from other classes. They practically need their tools to be able to cast anything from their own spell list, that they get so many tool proficiencies only emphasizes the importance of tool based spellcasting, as not all spells are as easy to explain with certain tools, as they might be with some other tools. It's kind of like a mini-game within the class to figure out how your character casts their spells.

In regards to the Infusions, they provide a plethora of new ways to participate in solo and group efforts, both in and out of combat.

[stoutstien]

Yep, it's a little bit MAD, but you don't have to max both Int and Cha: 18/18 would work just fine, and even 18/16 probably would still be fun.

It's worth mentioning that you get AC 25 by Tier 4 (plate armor +2 and shield of repulsion +1 and half-cover +2) plus easy access to Blur/Shield of Faith/Protection From Evil/Sanctuary (your choice which to concentrate on) and Shield. Your turrets don't benefit from that great AC, but frankly if an enemy wants to spend lots of time and attention attacking an AC 18 85 HP turret that only cost you 1 first-level spell slot to create, you're probably happy to let them do so.

An idea - race warforged- artificer 17/cleric 1/ fighter 2
-Walking around AC 27 can pop up to 29 with shield of faith, 31 with cannon, 36 with shield.
-Action surge is always a treat. Good for if you get caught without cannon(s)
- can pick a cleric domain that doesn't have H armor. Arcana is tempting


Not nearly as much at will ablity but can drop some respectable damage and borders on the unhittable level of AC and saves.

[MaxWilson]

An idea - race warforged- artificer 17/cleric 1/ fighter 2
-Walking around AC 27 can pop up to 29 with shield of faith, 31 with cannon, 36 with shield.
-Action surge is always a treat. Good for if you get caught without cannon(s)
- can pick a cleric domain that doesn't have H armor. Arcana is tempting


Not nearly as much at will ablity but can drop some respectable damage and borders on the unhittable level of AC and saves.

I actually underestimated the potential AC earlier. Even without the fighter levels and warforged race, you could get that +2 to AC from making yourself a cloak + ring of protection via infusions. Potentially you might be able to make yourself +2 armor and a +2 shield, since while you can't *learn* most infusions more than once, when it comes to actually enchanting items after a long rest it never says you can't use the same infusion more than once (+2 armor, +2 shield). Unclear, ask the DM for a ruling.

If the DM says yes, that gives AC 28 with the previous warlocky build, AC 30 with stoutsien's build, 32 with Shield of Faith (although IMO Blur or Protection From Evil is a better bet). Turret is already counted in that AC.

Plate +2 AC 20
Shield +2 AC 24
Ring of protection AC 25
Cloak of protection AC 26
Partial cover from turret AC 28
Optional Warforged, Defense, Shield of Faith? AC 32

Take Defensive Duelist if you want to feel invulnerable to melee monsters. Shield can be saved for the rarer ranged monsters.

If you're wearing or holding your flamethrower(s) you can run up to big groups of monsters, 3d8/6d8 them with your bonus action, and then Dodge to avoid retaliation.

[Dork_Forge]

I actually underestimated the potential AC earlier. Even without the fighter levels and warforged race, you could get that +2 to AC from making yourself a cloak + ring of protection via infusions. Potentially you might be able to make yourself +2 armor and a +2 shield, since while you can't *learn* most infusions more than once, when it comes to actually enchanting items after a long rest it never says you can't use the same infusion more than once (+2 armor, +2 shield). Unclear, ask the DM for a ruling.

If the DM says yes, that gives AC 28 with the previous warlocky build, AC 30 with stoutsien's build, 32 with Shield of Faith (although IMO Blur or Protection From Evil is a better bet). Turret is already counted in that AC.

Plate +2 AC 20
Shield +2 AC 24
Ring of protection AC 25
Cloak of protection AC 26
Partial cover from turret AC 28
Optional Warforged, Defense, Shield of Faith? AC 32

Take Defensive Duelist if you want to feel invulnerable to melee monsters. Shield can be saved for the rarer ranged monsters.

If you're wearing or holding your flamethrower(s) you can run up to big groups of monsters, 3d8/6d8 them with your bonus action, and then Dodge to avoid retaliation.

Isn't the multiple Enhanced Defense covered by "each of your infusions can only be in one item at a time"? The AC is still good and your defenses more versatile with a Repulsion Shield so you don't suffer much if at all.

[MaxWilson]

Isn't the multiple Enhanced Defense covered by "each of your infusions can only be in one item at a time"? The AC is still good and your defenses more versatile with a Repulsion Shield so you don't suffer much if at all.

Aha, there it is! I was looking for that clause last night and couldn't find it but you're right, it's on page 57, paragraph 6.

Can't have a +2 shield of you already have +2 armor, after all.

Thanks,
Max

[Temperjoke]

Caveat: I have not personally played the Artificer yet, this is based on observation and reading.

I think the disappointment issue largely stems that the artificer is a support-based class. That means that while it may have moments that make it seem flashy and shiny, the majority of the time the player is doing things that provide benefits and enhancement to other players, which makes them seem flashier by comparison.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

If you want to go Coffee-build, why not just be a Warforged rather than dip Warlock? They explicitly don't need to sleep, and can't even be put to sleep magically.

A Coffee Sorcerer/Warlock gets a bonus because Sorcerer can convert the Warlock spell-slots every short rest into Sorcery Points, and from there into any slot they want. If you all you want is an extra 8hrs of crafting each day, a Warforged with a built-in 3D-Printer is the way to go.

Incidentally, I'm considering playing a Warforged Hexblade 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 2+ in the next Eberron game my group runs. Thought I might start them with a vow of non-violence (against sentients), and name them Baymax :smallwink: .

You get near unlimited experimental elixers. Each "LR" breaks into technically 8 SRs. Each SR refreshes your two Lock slots which you burn to create two EE.

Looking at my character sheet I am currently sitting at 37 Healing and 5-9 of each of the others.

Essentially it lets me play specifically an alchemist and wand slinger relying on my "Wands" (cantrips) and potions.

[Voidhawk]

Thing I just noticed: one of the Level 2 Replicable Items is an Alchemy Jug.

From the DMG:
ALCHEMY JUG
Wondrous item, uncommon
This ceramic jug appears to be able to hold a gallon of liquid and weighs 12 pounds whether full or empty. Sloshing sounds can be heard from within the jug when it is shaken, even if the jug is empty.
You can use an action and name one liquid from the table below to cause the jug to produce the chosen liquid. Afterward, you can uncork the jug as an action and pour that liquid out, up to 2 gallons per minute. The maximum amount of liquid the jug can produce depends on the liquid you named. Once the jug starts producing a liquid, it can't produce a different one, or more of one that has reached its maximum, until the next dawn.



Liquid
Max Amount


Acid
8 ounces


Basic poison
1/2 ounce


Beer
4 gallons


Honey
1 gallon


Mayonnaise
2 gallons


Oil
1 quart


Vinegar
2 gallons


Water, fresh
8 gallons


Water, salt
12 gallons


Wine
1 gallon


Though it can create many things (2 gallons of Mayonnaise? Must be conjured from the Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.), the most important are the top two in the list: 8oz of Acid or 1/2oz of Basic Poison per day.

Basic Poison has a market value of 100gp per vial (no details on how much is in a vial), so this is a pretty good money-spinner at low levels. Simply having a guild/criminal contact you can sell it to every time you're in town can gain a decent income to finance other things.

A vial of Acid normally costs 25gp, and causes 2d6 damage on hit. Artificers get the first level transmutation spell Catapult from XGE, which throws a small object up to 90ft and causing a Dex save vs 3d8 damage to the target and the object: I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Usefully, if the target passes the save then the object just keeps going, so in a target-rich environment you can probably ensure someone is going to get hit by it.

[Pex]

Thing I just noticed: one of the Level 2 Replicable Items is an Alchemy Jug.

From the DMG:
ALCHEMY JUG
Wondrous item, uncommon
This ceramic jug appears to be able to hold a gallon of liquid and weighs 12 pounds whether full or empty. Sloshing sounds can be heard from within the jug when it is shaken, even if the jug is empty.
You can use an action and name one liquid from the table below to cause the jug to produce the chosen liquid. Afterward, you can uncork the jug as an action and pour that liquid out, up to 2 gallons per minute. The maximum amount of liquid the jug can produce depends on the liquid you named. Once the jug starts producing a liquid, it can't produce a different one, or more of one that has reached its maximum, until the next dawn.



Liquid
Max Amount


Acid
8 ounces


Basic poison
1/2 ounce


Beer
4 gallons


Honey
1 gallon


Mayonnaise
2 gallons


Oil
1 quart


Vinegar
2 gallons


Water, fresh
8 gallons


Water, salt
12 gallons


Wine
1 gallon


Though it can create many things (2 gallons of Mayonnaise? Must be conjured from the Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.), the most important are the top two in the list: 8oz of Acid or 1/2oz of Basic Poison per day.

Basic Poison has a market value of 100gp per vial (no details on how much is in a vial), so this is a pretty good money-spinner at low levels. Simply having a guild/criminal contact you can sell it to every time you're in town can gain a decent income to finance other things.

A vial of Acid normally costs 25gp, and causes 2d6 damage on hit. Artificers get the first level transmutation spell Catapult from XGE, which throws a small object up to 90ft and causing a Dex save vs 3d8 damage to the target and the object: I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Usefully, if the target passes the save then the object just keeps going, so in a target-rich environment you can probably ensure someone is going to get hit by it.

Thank you! I knew my artificer wanted to make flasks of acid for Catapult, but now he can save on cost. I don't have Alchemy Jug now, but I get to switch out for it next level. Tough choice which one it is, probably the armor. I'll see how it goes if the campaign allows me time and money to make them. DM is being stingy on cash treasure right now. Real annoying.

Edit: Just checked. An acid flask is 1 lb. It takes the jug two days to get one vial. Not efficient for the campaign I'm in. Need to think on it some more.

[Misterwhisper]

Thank you! I knew my artificer wanted to make flasks of acid for Catapult, but now he can save on cost. I don't have Alchemy Jug now, but I get to switch out for it next level. Tough choice which one it is, probably the armor. I'll see how it goes if the campaign allows me time and money to make them. DM is being stingy on cash treasure right now. Real annoying.

Edit: Just checked. An acid flask is 1 lb. It takes the jug two days to get one vial. Not efficient for the campaign I'm in. Need to think on it some more.

I have a deep love of the alchemy jug.

In my favorite campaign I was in for 5e, we legit randomed into 3 of them and an instant fortress by level 6.

We just made our own portable tavern and inn.

I knocked someone out and covered them in gallons of mayonnaise and wrote out “you were amazing” also in mayo on the floor of the room.

[BoxANT]

I like the Artificer, but there are a few things that I would change.

1. They don't get a new cantrip at 4th level. This stings, combined with the fact that Mending is important for the class, and you probably will want Fire Bolt, means that cantrip selection is very limited.

2. Alchemist should get Homunculus at 3rd. Other subclasses get their pet at 3rd, while the Alchemist has to wait until 6th level to get a Homunculus, just let them have it at 3rd imo.

3. They do not have Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade on their spell list. As arcane casters, they should have access to this.


Overall, nothing major, just some minor tweaks.

[MeeposFire]

I like the Artificer, but there are a few things that I would change.

1. They don't get a new cantrip at 4th level. This stings, combined with the fact that Mending is important for the class, and you probably will want Fire Bolt, means that cantrip selection is very limited.

2. Alchemist should get Homunculus at 3rd. Other subclasses get their pet at 3rd, while the Alchemist has to wait until 6th level to get a Homunculus, just let them have it at 3rd imo.

3. They do not have Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade on their spell list. As arcane casters, they should have access to this.


Overall, nothing major, just some minor tweaks.

I would agree that artificers thematically should have access to those weapon cantrips though I disagree with your reasoning. Artificers should likely have access to greenflame blade and booming blade because they are cantrips that involve essentially putting magical power on to a weapon which is very much something an artificer would do. Think of it as infusing a fire energy into the sword and then it explodes which fits very well. As for arcane do note that not all arcane casters get access to those cantrips so it is not ubiquitous for arcane casters.

In addition I do not have my book right now so I cannot check but are articiers explicitly arcane in 5e? I ask because they do not have to be as in 3e they were not at all (they operated under a unique system essentially using "pure" magic) but in 4e they were because arcane made the most sense if you had to choose only one power source to represent a class (later classes started getting more than one though I am not sure that actually helps the artificer actually in terms of fitting its theme). So they do not have to be arcane so did they explicitly state them to be so or are we just assuming it because they are similar to what we see are arcane and think of them as alternate wizards with their int focus?

[stoutstien]

Something to keep in mind with using The Alchemist jug to provide flasks of acid is the amount of acid produced by the item in the amount needed for the flask. It's going to be up to the individual table so definitely, but you want to clear before you try to pull it off. Same is true for the poison.

The real question is is the mayonnaise option good enough to be considered food?

[Brookshw]

Then you spend your turns inflicting 6d8 (27) in an AoE plus 4d10+20ish (42ish)...

What AoEs do you have in mind? Flamethrower and something?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think I can put my finger on why me and my group really likes the artificer but some others find it lacking. It's because of the way we play.

We don't do straight-shot dungeon crawls very much. There's plenty of dungeon crawls, but they're of the sprawling, complex variety, where enemy movement, knowledge, and dispositions comes into play a lot. And we only do these kinds of location-quests maybe every other session, because my party much prefers mystery and intrigue, where strong utility and social ability is preferred over combat strength. They even utilize the non-combat pillars to circumvent or stack the deck against the combat pillar, setting up ambushes and traps, or intimidating/persuading enemies into standing down or running.

In my games, the players believe that detect thoughts and locate object are strong, must-have spells that the party simply must have ready every day in order to surmount their challenges. And they get a lot of mileage out of them, too.

The artificer has this coveted utility in spades. So it doesn't really matter in our worlds that their damage is 'meh'. But I totally get how for a more normal group, that's a death sentence.

[Contrast]

In my games, the players believe that detect thoughts and locate object are strong, must-have spells that the party simply must have ready every day in order to surmount their challenges. And they get a lot of mileage out of them, too.

The artificer has this coveted utility in spades. So it doesn't really matter in our worlds that their damage is 'meh'. But I totally get how for a more normal group, that's a death sentence.

This was actually my problem really though. I just felt like a wizard without the ritual spells or spell slots to actually do all the utility I wanted to. I played up to 6 and at no point do I think I contributed in a way I couldn't have done better as a wizard.

I allowed the barbarian to have a magic axe until he found one of his own which was nice. You get con save proficiency but my spellcasting felt so weak/limited that never felt particularly relevant. I had a better AC than a wizard but these are all combat things not utility things (and in my opinion didn't seem sufficient to balance back out).

[Waterdeep Merch]

This was actually my problem really though. I just felt like a wizard without the ritual spells or spell slots to actually do all the utility I wanted to. I played up to 6 and at no point do I think I contributed in a way I couldn't have done better as a wizard.

I allowed the barbarian to have a magic axe until he found one of his own which was nice. You get con save proficiency but my spellcasting felt so weak/limited that never felt particularly relevant. I had a better AC than a wizard but these are all combat things not utility things (and in my opinion didn't seem sufficient to balance back out).

Wizard's still the gold standard, can't argue with that. Bard's probably better, too. But artificer's still strong in these aspects, certainly enough to solve problems and contribute meaningfully with a bit of cleverness. For people tired of those two, this is a fun alternative.

[MaxWilson]

...We don't do straight-shot dungeon crawls very much. There's plenty of dungeon crawls, but they're of the sprawling, complex variety, where enemy movement, knowledge, and dispositions comes into play a lot. And we only do these kinds of location-quests maybe every other session, because my party much prefers mystery and intrigue, where strong utility and social ability is preferred over combat strength. They even utilize the non-combat pillars to circumvent or stack the deck against the combat pillar, setting up ambushes and traps, or intimidating/persuading enemies into standing down or running.

In my games, the players believe that detect thoughts and locate object are strong, must-have spells that the party simply must have ready every day in order to surmount their challenges. And they get a lot of mileage out of them, too.

The artificer has this coveted utility in spades.*snip*

But does it really?

Not only does the Artificer lack access to Detect Thoughts and Locate Object, I don't think it has access to any knowledge spells, not even Arcane Eye, which you could theoretically imagine as a sort of flying robot eye if they did have it. Almost all of their spells seem to be very concrete: elemental damage, boosting movement, curing wounds... nothing to do with knowledge at all except Skill Empowerment and Enhance Ability to boost ability checks.

I'd actually say the Artificer is better at damage than at knowledge-based utility, so I'd expect it to be more popular in a straightforward dungeon crawl than in a knowledge/puzzle-based megadungeon.

Basically if you're thinking of Artificer as an alt-wizard, you'll be disappointed: not enough utility. If you're thinking of it as a kind of AoE-based alt-Fighter or alt-Paladin, you might enjoy it quite a lot: lots of damage and some utility.

[stoutstien]

But does it really?

Not only does the Artificer lack access to Detect Thoughts and Locate Object, I don't think it has access to any knowledge spells, not even Arcane Eye, which you could theoretically imagine as a sort of flying robot eye if they did have it. Almost all of their spells seem to be very concrete: elemental damage, boosting movement, curing wounds... nothing to do with knowledge at all except Skill Empowerment and Enhance Ability to boost ability checks.

I'd actually say the Artificer is better at damage than at knowledge-based utility, so I'd expect it to be more popular in a straightforward dungeon crawl than in a knowledge/puzzle-based megadungeon.

Basically if you're thinking of Artificer as an alt-wizard, you'll be disappointed: not enough utility. If you're thinking of it as a kind of AoE-based alt-Fighter or alt-Paladin, you might enjoy it quite a lot: lots of damage and some utility.

They do have arcane eye at least.

I see them more as a force multiplier in a way vs a straightforward utility of wizard or any full caster for that matter.
They don't have a lot of information gathering spells but they do get a good oh crap button for the whole party with flash of genius on top of being able to swap infusions everyday to better sure up weak spots.
Less Batman wizard and more Sherlock Holmes.

The Sherlock Holmes analogy is more apt than I first realized. Playing a wizard is very much like Batman In that you have a very wide set of spells and with a passing glance can prepare a daily loadout over a cup of tea.
the artificer has probably stayed up half the night crafting something or another, takes gear of one party member to canalized it for another member, balance spell slot spent on spells or elixirs/cannons, flash of genius charges on checks/saves, pick prepared spells, and then go off adventuring.

[Agent-KI7KO]

If i get an alchemist in the group i let them roll extra dice and pick the dice they want, similar for the ones they spend spell slots for.

[Smoothjedi]

I started my Artillerist at level 4, and was pretty pumped to play him after creation. I don't think our DM had really read through the class that thoroughly, and walked his 7 troglodytes in perfect cone formation into the room we were hiding in. I got a lucky, high initiative roll, and first round I summoned my flamethrower, stepped out in front of them, surprised and cooked 5 of them before they had a chance to do anything. Second round I thorn whipped one of the remainders to pull him next to his buddy, and finished those two off with my bonus action. The DM had to go over my character sheet twice to ensure I wasn't making something up.
The class seems pretty strong. Artillerist specifically is a damage subclass built on a support base class, and I think it's solid. It may not be pumping out a lot of spells, but it's got a great bonus action mechanic, and can be pretty durable, especially if you're a warforged.

[Misterwhisper]

I started my Artillerist at level 4, and was pretty pumped to play him after creation. I don't think our DM had really read through the class that thoroughly, and walked his 7 troglodytes in perfect cone formation into the room we were hiding in. I got a lucky, high initiative roll, and first round I summoned my flamethrower, stepped out in front of them, surprised and cooked 5 of them before they had a chance to do anything. Second round I thorn whipped one of the remainders to pull him next to his buddy, and finished those two off with my bonus action. The DM had to go over my character sheet twice to ensure I wasn't making something up.
The class seems pretty strong. Artillerist specifically is a damage subclass built on a support base class, and I think it's solid. It may not be pumping out a lot of spells, but it's got a great bonus action mechanic, and can be pretty durable, especially if you're a warforged.

This sounds like another case of people thinking a class is good but it is actually just their DM is very bad.

Your DM, marches 7 grunts, in a cone, into a room with multiple PCs.
Which did not seem to want to be stealthy despite the fact they have advantage on stealth.
Evidently your team was all hidden because you had surprise.
You beat 7 critters on initiative.
You did a cone attack of 2d8 to a bunch of scrub cr 1/4s at level 4, and rolled well above average on the damage roll just to kill any of them.
5 of them must have failed their save
or you would not have killed anything.
Then the other 2 just didn't make their 6 attacks on you for some reason.
Then you fried the last 2.

That is not artificer being good, that is the DM being bad and you getting lucky.

Any caster with burning hands or the like could do the same thing.

[Smoothjedi]

This sounds like another case of people thinking a class is good but it is actually just their DM is very bad.

Your DM, marches 7 grunts, in a cone, into a room with multiple PCs.
Which did not seem to want to be stealthy despite the fact they have advantage on stealth.
Evidently your team was all hidden because you had surprise.
You beat 7 critters on initiative.
You did a cone attack of 2d8 to a bunch of scrub cr 1/4s at level 4, and rolled well above average on the damage roll just to kill any of them.
5 of them must have failed their save
or you would not have killed anything.
Then the other 2 just didn't make their 6 attacks on you for some reason.
Then you fried the last 2.

That is not artificer being good, that is the DM being bad and you getting lucky.

Any caster with burning hands or the like could do the same thing.

This is true, we were hidden when they came in the room, and we did surprise them. It may just be that we were lucky. Admittedly, as I said the DM didn't expect me to have a cone ready to go, so the formation was a bad move on his part, and there were a lot of failed saves.
It's possible a wizard could have just done the same thing with burning hands, it's true. However, if I were a Wizard I would have needed to play it a lot more cautiously in case I rolled 3 damage on burning hands. I had 21 AC + Shield if really necessary. My defense was great because I had a defense infusion on my shield. My DC for the attack was high because I was able to use a +1 wand infusion.
Obviously one example at level 4 doesn't necessarily encapsulate the class as a whole, but the playstyle of a tough, short range blaster built on a support chassis should be useful in the first few tiers of the game at least.

[MaxWilson]

It's possible a wizard could have just done the same thing with burning hands, it's true. However, if I were a Wizard I would have needed to play it a lot more cautiously in case I rolled 3 damage on burning hands. I had 21 AC + Shield if really necessary. My defense was great because I had a defense infusion on my shield. My DC for the attack was high because I was able to use a +1 wand infusion.

Also, you had the option to Dodge + bonus action Flamethrower, at will, which is something wizards don't have at all and elemental monks have to pay ki for.

Being able to hose down enemies in Fireball Formation is niche, yes, but it's a niche you want somebody to cover because otherwise swarms of enemies are very dangerous. (Even with that niche covered, swarms of enemies with missile weapons in a dispersed formation are still very dangerous, and that niche has to get covered by Sharpshooters.)

If it's infeasible for enemies to swarm you with lots of melee attacks lest they die to AoEs, feats like Defensive Duelist get stronger, Athletics-based grappling gets stronger, and the game gets easier: the flamethrower has done its job.

[Smoothjedi]

Also, you had the option to Dodge + bonus action Flamethrower, at will, which is something wizards don't have at all and elemental monks have to pay ki for.

Being able to hose down enemies in Fireball Formation is niche, yes, but it's a niche you want somebody to cover because otherwise swarms of enemies are very dangerous. (Even with that niche covered, swarms of enemies with missile weapons in a dispersed formation are still very dangerous, and that niche has to get covered by Sharpshooters.)

If it's infeasible for enemies to swarm you with lots of melee attacks lest they die to AoEs, feats like Defensive Duelist get stronger, Athletics-based grappling gets stronger, and the game gets easier: the flamethrower has done its job.

Yeah good points. Our group is only 3, myself, a lore bard with a hexblade dip, and a shadow monk. My real goal in this scenario was to draw attention and tank as best I could because I knew I had the defenses and the fiery aggro to do it. It was a pleasant surprise that I roasted them all like this. I've got some battlefield control with Thorn Whip, will get more when I get the shield infusion at 6, buffs, great action economy with turrets, and finally enough defense to wade in there and use it all. Other classes may do some of these things better, but I don't think they pull them all together into one package as well as this one does.

[ZerohFG]

Is the Artificer a disappointing class? As with anything, It's up to the setting, the DM, the rest of the party, but most importantly you the player. Any time one of those is off, any class can be made to be disappointing. A wizard in a no magic world, or a cleric in a world with no gods, or playing a heavily armored fighter in a heist campaign where everyone else is stealthy.

Having recently started a new campaign, I currently enjoy my young battle smith. Getting to play as a gnome who rides his mech dog into battle can never not be fun. I feel like the big push for battle smiths were to go melee or mid line with squishier clerics; I however went stealth sniper mode. Getting repeating weapon, boots of spider climb, elven cloak, yadda yadda.... just send my doggo out to help action enemies, and snipe them down with my light crossbow (curse my small body)

I often prefer playing "bad classes" at my friend's table, partly to prove them wrong, but also to see the deluge of copy cats that come after my character. (we seem to have an over abundance of bards and monks, and even a monk bard) It's been fun getting this weird wizard/not wizard half caster thing to find his niche, but using spells mostly as a secondary/emergency only card has really helped keep him handy to the party. The only toes I have stepped on have been the rogue's; since he was not expecting another sneaky sneak character. My DM has helped by allowing more crafting, and allowing to offer my services to shops in exchange for raw materials. So by me putting in the effort to get him going, having the party support my idea, and the DM doing his part, I have a very fun artificer. Had any one of those not fallen into place, I probably would be disappointed.

Are there things I'd change or add? Yes. I want the move earth cantrip and silence........ for reasons, but I want stuff with every class. In the end, it's only as much fun as you make it. Also, misusing the orb of time super early in the game, very fun.