So, how degenerate is this ruling?

[SangoProduction]

Probably quite. But I wanted to see what you guys had to say.


For every 10 initiative you have above the highest rolling enemy, you take an additional turn at your initiative-10.

Seems pretty freaking insane. Especially considering that there's a deviation of 19 initiative with dice alone. But it is mediated by multiple enemies getting a chance to roll high. (And the ruling to use a d10 rather than d20 in rolling initiative, but that's not part of the base game.)

So, do you guys have any builds that absolutely blast on this ruling? How many extra turns could we potentially get before the enemy got to go?

Monsters are unlikely to get these extra turns, simply due to probability and not being optimized for such a setup. Unless we are fighting way above our league. (I'm definitely thinking to suggest that he cut it down to just an extra standard action. At least on the off chance that the enemy does, and we desperately need to run.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

+1 warning eager fumiki-bari are going to become a must have for every player.

[Crake]

The stargate d20 system (which I believe is based on the spycraft d20 system for the most part, so I assume it originates from there) actually has something similar to this. It's less that you get a whole extra turn for each initiative +10, but it's more that the initiative system is slightly more fluid, different actions will actually modify your initiative count up or down, and I believe once you reach a certain point (30 seems to jump out in my mind) you have the option to reduce your initiative count by -10, and take a free partial action, essentially giving you 1.5 turns for that round.

Actually straight up getting two turns every round is a bit over the top though if you ask me, going first is already a huge boon.

[SangoProduction]

+1 warning eager fumiki-bari are going to become a must have for every player.

Just in. The DM said that it we must actually be using it to attack or else immediately lose the initiative bonus until the round after we attack with it again. Sounds like a headache.

[Buufreak]

Sounds more like a train wreck. The idea of acting quick enough to get a single extra action sounds... well, no different than a surprise round. And hey, would you look at that, those rules already exist. I'm not sure what your dm is trying to accomplish with this, but they are effectively making a god stat. Approach with caution.

[calam]

From some minor skimming of this forum's archives there are some crazy numbers you can get with this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153914-3-5-Highest-initiative showing people getting 30+ bonuses in initiative and while those builds are probably suboptimal in other factors they might be able to make up for it for getting you 2-3 extra turns per round.

For another direction you can do the opposite and deoptimize your initiative for the sheer hilarity of a person you're dueling against getting 12 turns per turn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320797-De-optimizing-initiative). For even more fun challenge someone to a duel where you start 300ft away so they can leisurely walk to you in under 6 seconds and still get 2 full attacks.

[AnonymousPepper]

Well, Shadowrun functions on a similar-ish system where your initiative is divided into a number of passes and your speed within those passes, and almost everything that buffs the one buffs the other.

Characters with 3 and 4 passes have such a stupid level of advantage over ones that are still on 1, it's not even funny - and while mages can be busted in Shadowrun, they're nowhere near D&D 3e levels of insanity, and yet a mage running on four passes can just straight-up obliterate just about anything that doesn't have multiple passes (as can gunbunnies of various archetypes, but mages can solo an entire encounter in four passes easily if their enemies are running on one). And likewise, enemies that have more passes than the party... it can be incredibly uphill. This is, however, balanced by needing to either be a magic user (and the adept power to get passes is very costly, with the equivalent mage spell being extremely draining) or to blow basically all of your essence and a stupid amount of money one of a specific selection of gear items.

But with D&D 3e?

I shudder to think what would happen if you institutionalized a system where 3e characters that already tend to build for high initiatives anyway, and have the best access to ways to boost said, and are already far and away the most powerful classes in the game, are rewarded with extra turns. Not to mention, don't forget that there are ways to force natural 20s in 3e (Surge of Fortune comes to mind), which makes it incredibly consistent as well.

Also bear in mind that there are ways to boost your effective action count anyway - Celerity with daze immunity (sure, that only procs every other turn, but STILL), shapechanging into a Chronotyryn (Dual Actions [Su] is a heck of a drug]), etc. - that would be effectively multiplied by the stupid number of extra turns they get.

It's not quite the most game-breakingly degenerate rule I've seen. That title goes to a GM who removed the artificer's limit of CL+2 for spells in magic items (so with enough money, things like Choose Destiny were on the table at level 6 or so; that character's player retired him soon after so that the game remained challenging).

But it's pretty dang close.

[Elysiume]

This is one of many houserules I've seen that just make me ask "why?" This doesn't seem to be fixing a problem (initiative is already good, it doesn't need to be better) and it doesn't add anything that I'd consider valuable. This would increase RNG and exacerbate the rocket tag nature of combat. That said, maybe that's the goal?

If it was from a verisimilitude perspective, I think it hurts more than it helps. High initiative doesn't mean you surprised the enemy--that has its own mechanics. Imagine challenging someone to a duel, you roll a 26 to their 5, and you get three turns before they get to go. Everyone in the audience is confused as to why they stood there for twelve seconds while you sauntered up and stabbed them a dozen times. Or why you moved three times faster than you normally would, depending on how time works for the extra turns.

[Jack_Simth]

Probably quite. But I wanted to see what you guys had to say.



Seems pretty freaking insane. Especially considering that there's a deviation of 19 initiative with dice alone. But it is mediated by multiple enemies getting a chance to roll high. (And the ruling to use a d10 rather than d20 in rolling initiative, but that's not part of the base game.)On a couple of levels.

It's "vs. the highest rolling enemy". Groups get wonky.
So... those 30 shambling zombies with an Init of -1 each should be a cakewalk for your +20 init guy... except that the necromancer also has a pet hummingbird that's been dosed with caffeine to get a similar modifier. So instead of 3 to 1 vs. the Zombies, you're 1 to 1 vs. the zombies and the hummingbird.

It does funky things to spellcasting times:
If I'm sitting alone in my wizard's tower, Regenerate 3 rounds (18 seconds) to cast. On the other hand, if I'm being attacked by a snail under the effects of a Greater Bestow Curse to penalize initiative checks... those three rounds to cast the spell now take 6 seconds. So a cursed angry snail is a very useful addition to any Wizard's tower or Cleric's Temple.

It adds randomness to the game, and more randomness generally favors the opponents over the players (because PC's are harder to replace than baddies).



You might get away with something that goes something like....

The person with the highest initiative goes first. That's also the initiative count. The initiative count decrements until it reaches the lowest-rolled initiative - at which point, the initiative count resets to the highest-rolled initiative. You get to act on your initiative count, and every ten points below that.

... but it's still bonkers as all get out. Especially with full casters.

[SangoProduction]

From some minor skimming of this forum's archives there are some crazy numbers you can get with this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153914-3-5-Highest-initiative showing people getting 30+ bonuses in initiative and while those builds are probably suboptimal in other factors they might be able to make up for it for getting you 2-3 extra turns per round.

For another direction you can do the opposite and deoptimize your initiative for the sheer hilarity of a person you're dueling against getting 12 turns per turn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320797-De-optimizing-initiative). For even more fun challenge someone to a duel where you start 300ft away so they can leisurely walk to you in under 6 seconds and still get 2 full attacks.

Roflmao. Creating super speed out of deoptimization. That is actually ingenious. Hire a professional football player to bullrush you to your location. Save the world over night.

[Hellpyre]

Optimize for initiative, get White Raven Tactics and Moment of Alacrity, start taking exponential turns.

[emeraldstreak]

Even with this rule, the value should be the max number on the system die, 20, to ensure two opponents of equal initiative never get an extra action just due to randomness.

[ekarney]

Honestly looking into spells like Time Stop and Celerity might be an excellent way to stack a few more actions in here
Wu Jen 1 also grants Warning Spirit (Or watchful, AFB at the moment) for the ability to reroll 1 initiative roll a day. Anima Mage grants bonuses to init as well, there's definitely a few ways to capitalise on this.

[Khedrac]

Get someone with a high charisma to take one level of Marshal and Motivate Dexterity - assuming a 16 charisma with a +4 item that's another +5 on initiative without optimizing.
The party War Weaver will be casting nerveskitter through his or her weave every combat (another +5) - though to be fair, they should be doing that anyway.

Initiative is actually quite easy to boost to silly levels - I have seem monsters with +35 initiative not go first in non-epic games - so this potentially hands loads of extra actions to the players. And those poor brutes with negative initiative modifiers are probably not going to get to act.

[Falontani]

Improved Initiative +4
Factotum 3: Int mod to initiative
Eager+2
Warning +4
Nimble Bones +4
Bone Creature grants +2 dex
Streetfighter 5: +3

So your a:
Warforged Factotum: Mithril Body
Warforged Fighter: Mithril Body, Battle Hardened
Swashbuckler: Improved Initiative
Factotum
Factotum
Swashbuckler: Combat Expertise
Swashbuckler
Warforged Fighter: Shocking Fist
Fighter: Improved Feint
Warforged Fighter: Body as Weapon
Streetfighter
Streetfighter: Weapon Focus: Slam
Streetfighter
Streetfighter
Streetfighter: Weapon Specialization: Slam
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue: Daring Outlaw
Bone Creature
Bone Creature

With a 16 base dex and int we end up with a +24 Initiative. Without trying to do anything cool.

[Aotrs Commander]

The stargate d20 system (which I believe is based on the spycraft d20 system for the most part, so I assume it originates from there) actually has something similar to this. It's less that you get a whole extra turn for each initiative +10, but it's more that the initiative system is slightly more fluid, different actions will actually modify your initiative count up or down, and I believe once you reach a certain point (30 seems to jump out in my mind) you have the option to reduce your initiative count by -10, and take a free partial action, essentially giving you 1.5 turns for that round.

And of course Stargate doesn't have stuff like spells to deal with. It's been a while since I looked at my book, too, but I'm not even 100% sure you get a iteratives on a full attack (as you basically get two standards per round in that system, not a standard/move), so you could shoot twice anyway) - either way, pretty all it does it get you one extra attack or something, rather than the potential you could do with 3.x/PF with spells/powers/maneuvres/extenstive class features and such.



From what little I gather from podcasts, isn't getting an extra action in 5E considereda Legendary Action or something, for boss monsters ostensibly? (And why 3.0 Haste was nerfed hard?) Which perhaps indicates how higly powerful it is.



MAYBE you could do something like allow an extra move action at that juncture (with the proviso it doesn't count as the creature's turn) without dismantling the 3.x action economy?

[Crake]

And of course Stargate doesn't have stuff like spells to deal with. It's been a while since I looked at my book, too, but I'm not even 100% sure you get a iteratives on a full attack (as you basically get two standards per round in that system, not a standard/move), so you could shoot twice anyway) - either way, pretty all it does it get you one extra attack or something, rather than the potential you could do with 3.x/PF with spells/powers/maneuvres/extenstive class features and such.



From what little I gather from podcasts, isn't getting an extra action in 5E considereda Legendary Action or something, for boss monsters ostensibly? (And why 3.0 Haste was nerfed hard?) Which perhaps indicates how higly powerful it is.



MAYBE you could do something like allow an extra move action at that juncture (with the proviso it doesn't count as the creature's turn) without dismantling the 3.x action economy?

Yeah, that's all true, and because there are no spells or magic items, you can't reasonably boost initiative to absurd degrees, but instead those high initiative counts come from performing actions that raise your initiative repeatedly, and avoiding things that decrease your initiative (which is actually a LOT of things).

I did a quick look up, and it's a partial action if your initiative is 26 or above, and it doesn't reduce it by 10, it reduces it by 20. The whole thing only really works in a fluid initiative system, and I think, in such a system spellcasting would definitely have to incur an initiative penalty, so the only way you can really pull it off is to either get really lucky on the initial roll, or avoid spellcasting for a few rounds at least.

Another thing to note is that by reducing the initiative count by 20, you're almost certainly putting yourself from first in the initiative order to last which is essentially the same thing in a cyclic initiative system, while only getting a partial action that round, unless you've raised your initiative to an absurdly high level that -20 would still put you somewhere in the middle, or even at the top.

[martixy]

Probably quite. But I wanted to see what you guys had to say.



Seems pretty freaking insane. Especially considering that there's a deviation of 19 initiative with dice alone. But it is mediated by multiple enemies getting a chance to roll high. (And the ruling to use a d10 rather than d20 in rolling initiative, but that's not part of the base game.)

So, do you guys have any builds that absolutely blast on this ruling? How many extra turns could we potentially get before the enemy got to go?

Monsters are unlikely to get these extra turns, simply due to probability and not being optimized for such a setup. Unless we are fighting way above our league. (I'm definitely thinking to suggest that he cut it down to just an extra standard action. At least on the off chance that the enemy does, and we desperately need to run.)

This is an interesting idea, but your versions seems... positively absurd. I'd put it as a one-time thing. And you have to take into account surprise rounds.

Also consider White Raven Tactics and Moment of Alacrity! And any other initiative modifiers. The other problem is messing with Ready Action/Delay mechanics.

My idea was, taking a one-time penalty to get a one time bonus action - 20 for full turn, 12 for standard action, 8 for move action. And reducing Moment of Alacrity to +10.

However, I think there is a good reason there is a limited ability to mess with initiative - it, and turn order is an artefact of game mechanics. It is a compromise between simulating real-time combat, where all actions are simultaneous and playability. Therefore ultimately I decided, the fewer things that mess with this flawed interpolation of "real time", the less immersion is broken.

[Sutr]

Is this only in the first round? Can I delay to initiative count over 9000 in the next round should I survive. What happens with readied actions with this system? I could see direct damage to cause concentration checks and a high initiative being the new optimal, but I don't know how those rules work.

[Calthropstu]

Well, Shadowrun functions on a similar-ish system where your initiative is divided into a number of passes and your speed within those passes, and almost everything that buffs the one buffs the other.

Characters with 3 and 4 passes have such a stupid level of advantage over ones that are still on 1, it's not even funny - and while mages can be busted in Shadowrun, they're nowhere near D&D 3e levels of insanity, and yet a mage running on four passes can just straight-up obliterate just about anything that doesn't have multiple passes (as can gunbunnies of various archetypes, but mages can solo an entire encounter in four passes easily if their enemies are running on one). And likewise, enemies that have more passes than the party... it can be incredibly uphill. This is, however, balanced by needing to either be a magic user (and the adept power to get passes is very costly, with the equivalent mage spell being extremely draining) or to blow basically all of your essence and a stupid amount of money one of a specific selection of gear items.

But with D&D 3e?

I shudder to think what would happen if you institutionalized a system where 3e characters that already tend to build for high initiatives anyway, and have the best access to ways to boost said, and are already far and away the most powerful classes in the game, are rewarded with extra turns. Not to mention, don't forget that there are ways to force natural 20s in 3e (Surge of Fortune comes to mind), which makes it incredibly consistent as well.

Also bear in mind that there are ways to boost your effective action count anyway - Celerity with daze immunity (sure, that only procs every other turn, but STILL), shapechanging into a Chronotyryn (Dual Actions [Su] is a heck of a drug]), etc. - that would be effectively multiplied by the stupid number of extra turns they get.

It's not quite the most game-breakingly degenerate rule I've seen. That title goes to a GM who removed the artificer's limit of CL+2 for spells in magic items (so with enough money, things like Choose Destiny were on the table at level 6 or so; that character's player retired him soon after so that the game remained challenging).

But it's pretty dang close.

Had a gm rule that my psion had access to all school powers in a 3.5 game. The combinations I came up with surprised even me. Combined with unlimited number of charged touch attacks, that game ended when I oneshotted an epic great wyrm red with 20 levels of fighter. So yeah, removing limits is bad.

I'd be leery of attempting to abuse this op. If it gets too crazy, the gm may remove this. And if you build around its abuse and you can no longer abuse it, your entire character goes splat.

[martixy]

Had a gm rule that my psion had access to all school powers in a 3.5 game. The combinations I came up with surprised even me. Combined with unlimited number of charged touch attacks, that game ended when I oneshotted an epic great wyrm red with 20 levels of fighter. So yeah, removing limits is bad.

I'd be leery of attempting to abuse this op. If it gets too crazy, the gm may remove this. And if you build around its abuse and you can no longer abuse it, your entire character goes splat.

While I agree to that on general principles regarding psionics (they are the most nova-y of disciplines), I'm gonna need you to explain yourself. In detail.
Not that I wish to imply I don't believe you. I want to replicate what you did, and learn from it. I wish to attain higher levels of nova potential. I want to acquire enough of a TO mastery of the mind, that my head turns into a black hole of RAW potential, such that rules books no longer need to be thrown at me, they fly towards my head of their own accord.

[Biggus]

So, do you guys have any builds that absolutely blast on this ruling? How many extra turns could we potentially get before the enemy got to go?


I'll go for:

Strongheart Halfling Sorcerer1/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10/some other Cleric prestige class 6

Feats
Precocious Apprentice
Blooded +2
Yondalla's Sense +Wis (+11, see below)
Draconic Heritage
Draconic Aura +4
Quick Reconnoiter +2
Leadership (+7, see below)

Spells
Nerveskitter +5
Sign +4
Primal Instinct +5 (comp)
Heroics: grants Improved Initiative +4

Items
Sandals of the Vagabond +2 (luck)
+1 Eager Warning weapon +2, +5 (ins)
Ring of Anticipation (roll twice, take better result)
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Periapt of Wisdom +6
Tome of Understanding +5
Manual of Quickness of Action +4

cost: just over 347,800GP (depending on weapon chosen), leaves about 412,000GP for other items

Ability Scores
at level 1, before racial bonuses & penalties, 32 point buy:

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 15

at level 20, including items:

Str 6
Dex 26
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 32
Cha 15

Cohort
Marshal, Cha 15 at level 1 (assuming elite array for NPC with PC class levels), Cha 25 at level 17 including +6 item, using Motivate Dexterity for +7.

Other
Hummingbird Familiar +4

So that's:

Feats +26
Spells +18
Dex +8
Items +9
Familiar +4

Total +65, rolls twice and takes better result

I'd also make liberal use of divinations to know when danger is near, if I think a fight is about to start I'll cast Divine Agility for a further +2, and if I think it's a serious danger I'll also cast Greater Visage of the Deity for +3 and UMD a wand of Inner Beauty for another +2, making +72.

My weapon will probably be a composite longbow, which I'll attack with using Divine Might (also cast before the fight starts) and my high Dex quite respectably.

If I'd rather use spells to attack, I'll still have +58, or up to +65 if I have advance warning.

Note that this is intended to actually be a playable build, you could get initiative even higher if you were willing to accept a gimped character.

All initiative bonuses are untyped unless stated.

Edit: I'll also have a Helm of Righteous War for 5,000GP, so I'll still have a +2 insight bonus if I'm not using my weapon. So that makes +60 when attacking with spells, or up to +67 with time to prepare.

[Quertus]

I love ShadowRun "high initiative = lots of actions". But this rule has some dysfunctions.

So, if I were implementing this…

Take an action on your initiative, and every 10 thereafter. So, if you rolled a 39, you go on 39,29,19&9.

There would be no "full attack" options. Everyone would get a standard action each turn. (Or maybe a "limit: 1 full round action power round" or something).

Each point of Fighter BAB would give +2 initiative - thus producing the expected number of Iterative attacks, and giving Fighters nice things. (Maybe other classes might give +1 initiative per point of BAB)

It would not be relative to your opposition. Initiative would always count down to 0. When it reaches 0, anyone whose initiative is lower than 0 gets to add 10 to their initiative. Then start the next round. So, you can be so slow that you don't get to go for several rounds.

Certain abilities, such as "pounce", could allow multiple attacks in a single action.

If you get to use this rule, let us know how it goes.

[Calthropstu]

While I agree to that on general principles regarding psionics (they are the most nova-y of disciplines), I'm gonna need you to explain yourself. In detail.
Not that I wish to imply I don't believe you. I want to replicate what you did, and learn from it. I wish to attain higher levels of nova potential. I want to acquire enough of a TO mastery of the mind, that my head turns into a black hole of RAW potential, such that rules books no longer need to be thrown at me, they fly towards my head of their own accord.

It wasn't 100% raw as it required a one use custom item my GM stupidly allowed for me to take not realizing its potential. It would redirect any and all energy damage directed at me for one round to a target of my choosing on the next round. I then summoned a few dozen astral constructs, gave my cohort and followers energy blast type powers and had all of them blast me with 5k points of cold damage. I then redirected all of it at the dragon. However, there are plenty of ways within psionics to do it raw.

Decerberate is one of the most exploitable ones.
Alternatively, you can true mindswitch into the dragon itself from the body of a cat. Beware of the feline 20th level fighter.
Alternatively, you can forcibly teleport it.

My personal favorite was metaconcert, Powerlink shards + microcosm. At one point, I had 100 powerlink shards. I then had myself and several of my hirelings enter into a metaconcert. My reserve pool was about 2000 power points under the metaconcert. I hit a monster with 800 hp with a no save microcosm. Then the gm took away my shards. My manifester level was around 34 without them. With them, it was 234. (btw, I could have microcosm'd a creature with 2270 hp) No save, just suck.

[Buufreak]

INo save, just suck.

Isn't it a bit worse than that? My understanding of microcosm was you placed them in a somewhat coma state where you have full control over what they think is happening.

[Powerdork]

Isn't it a bit worse than that? My understanding of microcosm was you placed them in a somewhat coma state where you have full control over what they think is happening.

To quote the power, per Expanded Psionics Handbook pg. 118: "The subject’s senses are all completely fabricated from within its own mind, though it may not realize this. ... The subject lives within its own made-up world until the time of its actual death."

[Buufreak]

Eh, mistakes happen. The point I was making is coma like state is far closer to SoD than SoS.

[PhantasyPen]

I had a Scout build way back when that somehow managed a base initiative bonus of... +24 I think it was? I don't remember the exact bonus any more but I remember it was high enough that even if I rolled a natural 1 I'd still beat out everyone else's rolls on natural 20's. That character would have been disgusting under this ruling, and since their primary role was to, well, scout things, I could easily envision him wiping out a significant portion of an encounter before the rest of the party even got on the board.

[martixy]

It wasn't 100% raw as it required a one use custom item my GM stupidly allowed for me to take not realizing its potential. It would redirect any and all energy damage directed at me for one round to a target of my choosing on the next round. I then summoned a few dozen astral constructs, gave my cohort and followers energy blast type powers and had all of them blast me with 5k points of cold damage. I then redirected all of it at the dragon. However, there are plenty of ways within psionics to do it raw.

Decerberate is one of the most exploitable ones.
Alternatively, you can true mindswitch into the dragon itself from the body of a cat. Beware of the feline 20th level fighter.
Alternatively, you can forcibly teleport it.

My personal favorite was metaconcert, Powerlink shards + microcosm. At one point, I had 100 powerlink shards. I then had myself and several of my hirelings enter into a metaconcert. My reserve pool was about 2000 power points under the metaconcert. I hit a monster with 800 hp with a no save microcosm. Then the gm took away my shards. My manifester level was around 34 without them. With them, it was 234. (btw, I could have microcosm'd a creature with 2270 hp) No save, just suck.

Oh.

I was hoping for some novel abuse.

You sure about Decerebrate? It doesn't have any augmentations.

Also, I just realized that Microcosm is THE Infinite Tsukuyomi power. Hmm... metapsionics are stackable but widen is +4 and metapower is only -2, we need something more. And I can't think of anything other that works per-feat rather than per-manifestation.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread:
Why overcomplicate things? Just timestop and moment-of-alacrity your way to absurdity.