The most immortal immortal that ever immortaled.

[Calthropstu]

As a fun exercise, I'd like to make someone so immortal, killing him would be difficult for even the most powerful characters.

How many immortality tricks can we layer together?

[Segev]

As a fun exercise, I'd like to make someone so immortal, killing him would be difficult for even the most powerful characters.

How many immortality tricks can we layer together?

Well, there's the obvious first step of Contingent spells. Teleport and similar to escape instant/imminent death. Indomitability to trigger with every hit when it would otherwise put you to 0 or lower hp. Heck, even Contingent raise dead or true resurrection to bring you back should you die! Ironguard and its greater cousin protect you from metal weapons, too.

Then, there's clone. Have a number of them lying around with gentle repose or the like preserving them (or stuff them into the Astral Plane, where timelessness keeps them for you). When you die, you wake up in one of the cloned bodies.

For psions, there's Mind Seed and True Mind Switch. Both a bit pricey, but they work to keep you going either after dying or when your current body gets too old.

On the subject of mind swapping, magic jar gives you the ability to keep jumping bodies as the current one is destroyed. Just make sure the gem itself isn't broken when you aren't near your own body!

And then there's lichdom. Even if destroyed, you're back in 1d10 days.

[Telonius]

As a fun exercise, I'd like to make someone so immortal, killing him would be difficult for even the most powerful characters.

How many immortality tricks can we layer together?

Might be helpful to list all the ways that a character can die, so we can figure out how to become immune to that. I'm not sure if it's totally comprehensive, but the Many Deaths of Punchbag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462619-If-it-has-stats-we-can-kill-it-Adaptive-Evolution) are probably a good place to start.




Deaths so far: 49

Immunities

Ability damage
Bleeding
Energy damage
Physical damage
Damage
Positive energy
Force effects
Energy drain
Ability drain
Does not require air/water/food
Death effects
Aging
Being eaten
No longer reliant on biological processes
Silver cord cannot be cut
If Punchbag's mind is transferred to a different body, the new body gains all immunities
Never considered willing
Personal Truename holds no power over Punchbag
All immunities apply retroactively
Mind-affecting effects
Transformations
Effects that separate soul from body directly
Constant Freedom of Movement
Dislocation from the time stream
Can pass through solid objects
Always acts according to the base time trait of the Prime Material
If cast adrift in the planes, automatically returns home. Can trigger this at will
Transmutation effects
Entering Sigil
Sudden Massive Existence Failure
Teleportation effects
Does not need a head to survive
Poison
Necromancy effects
If magically contained within something that is then destroyed, appears unharmed
Visual distractions, gaze attacks, etc
Taint
Mystical bindings
Attempts to control his actions
Salient Divine Abilities
Planar hazards
Farm is immune to planar shenanigans and anything making it a hostile place
Acausal
Negation of ability to interact with the world


Missed Opportunities

Assorted obscure damage types
Disease that doesn't rely on ability damage

[AvatarVecna]

Might be helpful to list all the ways that a character can die, so we can figure out how to become immune to that. I'm not sure if it's totally comprehensive, but the Many Deaths of Punchbag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462619-If-it-has-stats-we-can-kill-it-Adaptive-Evolution) are probably a good place to start.

Adding to this list, since I don't see it mentioned: if you put someone/something in a Bag Of Holding, and rupture the bag, the bag is ruined and the contents are "lost forever". This isn't made out to be like the other weird extradimensional items, where they're explicitly cast adrift in another plane (which that list does cover), which gives me the impression that it more means "destroyed utterly". Similarly, any creature placed within a Bag Of Devouring is immediately eaten and killed (no save, no amount of damage, no SR, just dead), with a 50% chance that even Miracle/Wish/True Rez won't ever work to bring them back. It's debatable whether Epic Spells could do the trick at that point, since it says "no mortal magic", but presumably deities could still try, and your soul didn't get eaten so you're out there in the planes somewhere.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For psions, there's Mind Seed and True Mind Switch. Both a bit pricey, but they work to keep you going either after dying or when your current body gets too old.
There's also the Body Leech who can TMS for free when he's reduced to -1 or lower hp. Also Astral Seed and Contingent Psionic Revivify.


On the subject of mind swapping, magic jar gives you the ability to keep jumping bodies as the current one is destroyed. Just make sure the gem itself isn't broken when you aren't near your own body!
For Magic Jar there's the Fang of Inhabitation (ECR) which makes Magic Jar permanent and undispellable and lets you take on the abilities and skills of your target while losing your own.
Also the Amulet of Spirit Storing here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MagicItems.pdf), which is basically a permanent Magic Jar that activates automatically if you'd die.


And then there's lichdom. Even if destroyed, you're back in 1d10 days.
The Dry Lich (Sand) gets 9 phylacteries instead of one. For normal liches there's an epic spell in some FR book that lets you make multiple.

[Calthropstu]

Might be helpful to list all the ways that a character can die, so we can figure out how to become immune to that. I'm not sure if it's totally comprehensive, but the Many Deaths of Punchbag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462619-If-it-has-stats-we-can-kill-it-Adaptive-Evolution) are probably a good place to start.

I am more looking towards ways of coming back despite being killed.

An example:
A man clones himself repeatedly. He then becomes a lich. He then resides inside a demiplane where he uses multiple layers of astral projection and temporal stasis. He then uses liberal use of mind seed and true mindswitch as well as magic jar. He also has multiple death pacts, and several contingencies. He then forces his current body to become a vampire.

What further immortality can be added?

[Sinner's Garden]

IIRC, Vampire Lord had the most general revival case. Actually killing you for real requires an incredibly specific ritualized method, and as long as some supplicant somewhere performs the ritual to bring you back, you will come back no matter the difference between time, location, divine intervention, anything.

[Bartmanhomer]

Deities fit the bill. :biggrin:

[Calthropstu]

IIRC, Vampire Lord had the most general revival case. Actually killing you for real requires an incredibly specific ritualized method, and as long as some supplicant somewhere performs the ritual to bring you back, you will come back no matter the difference between time, location, divine intervention, anything.

So a lich magic jarring into a body and becoming a vampire lord. Cool.


Deities fit the bill. :biggrin:
I'd rather avoid "pure gm cheese" for this. I am planning on putting someone like this into my campaign world. Making him a deity would be fairly offputting.

[Segev]

I am more looking towards ways of coming back despite being killed.

An example:
A man clones himself repeatedly. He then becomes a lich. He then resides inside a demiplane where he uses multiple layers of astral projection and temporal stasis. He then uses liberal use of mind seed and true mindswitch as well as magic jar. He also has multiple death pacts, and several contingencies. He then forces his current body to become a vampire.

What further immortality can be added?

Simulacra can be sent out to do his bidding for things he doesn't even want to risk exposing his awareness. They're half his power, but they're also completely disposable (other than, you know, the hundreds of gp that went into making them).

Project image has a relatively short range, but can grant telepresence to a degree and a largely-unkillable avatar from which to act.

[Calthropstu]

Simulacra can be sent out to do his bidding for things he doesn't even want to risk exposing his awareness. They're half his power, but they're also completely disposable (other than, you know, the hundreds of gp that went into making them).

Project image has a relatively short range, but can grant telepresence to a degree and a largely-unkillable avatar from which to act.

Hmmm. Interesting. That could be an interesting way to interact with the world. I think I'll add it in.

Edit: Wonder what happens when a simulacrum uses true mind switch.

[Bartmanhomer]

Tier 1 Class: Wizards, Clerics, and Druids :biggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

What further immortality can be added?
Sand Shaper 10 automatically resurrects himself if his body lies in desert sand, dust or gravel for 10 minutes.

Astral Projection from a personal demiplane adds another layer of protection.

[Bronk]

Adding to this list, since I don't see it mentioned: if you put someone/something in a Bag Of Holding, and rupture the bag, the bag is ruined and the contents are "lost forever". This isn't made out to be like the other weird extradimensional items, where they're explicitly cast adrift in another plane (which that list does cover), which gives me the impression that it more means "destroyed utterly".

On the other hand... if a Bag of Holding is put into a Portable Hole, both are sucked into the void of the Astral Plane and forever lost. They're definitely still whole.

If you achieve immortality first (as easy as taking the Wedded to History feat at first level), hop into the bag, and pull this stunt, no one should ever be able to find you. You'd have to pull other tricks to still be able to influence events back home and/or prevent yourself from getting bored though.

[unseenmage]

You could use Mirror Walking to farm mirror duplicates of yourself to Magic Jar into.
Theres a magic item for being treated as always on your home plane IIRC.

Dropping your original body into stasis of some kind makes it stop decaying.
A static time demiplane where events dont happen could even protect it further. Retrieve it via Wisb transport at your leisure.

[Bartmanhomer]

Pun-Pun obviously. :biggrin:

[Hellpyre]

I feel like we've hit on some goodies already. As a dry lich->vampire lord Sandshaper 10 who has acquired at some point the Vecnablooded template, form several demiplanes, each filled with nothing but sand and bury a phylactery and a weirdstone in each one. Leave no permanent way into the demiplanes. Craft contingent revive undead -> plane shift -> forbiddance on your main body, and then operate out of a spare demiplane via astral projection

[Thurbane]

I am more looking towards ways of coming back despite being killed.

If epic options are in play: Epic Destiny (Eternal Hero) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428)


Continual Resurrection: At 21st level, you gain the ability to return from the dead. At dawn each day, if you are dead, you are restored to life (as true resurrection). You can set a place where you want to be resurrected. (You must be standing in that place when you make the choice.) When you are resurrected, you can choose to be resurrected in the place you choose or in the place you died. You can choose a new location for your place of resurrection once per level.

[Hellpyre]

I feel like the biggest problem with Continual Resurrection is that it won't overcome a simple soul bind spell, which isn't a worry that an undead has to deal with.

[Calthropstu]

I feel like we've hit on some goodies already. As a dry lich->vampire lord Sandshaper 10 who has acquired at some point the Vecnablooded template, form several demiplanes, each filled with nothing but sand and bury a phylactery and a weirdstone in each one. Leave no permanent way into the demiplanes. Craft contingent revive undead -> plane shift -> forbiddance on your main body, and then operate out of a spare demiplane via astral projection

original was wrong thread.

Yeah, so far I have: Man clones himself several times. Then becomes dry lich. Make demiplanes, astral projection, then make a simulacrum which will true mind switch with someone.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Be an illithid savant. Eat a thousand or so legacy champion clones with 10 levels each. Apply all those levels to illithid savant.

Now, eat the tarrasque for regeneration.
A ghost (on the Ethereal, where it's corporeal) for rejuvenation.
An aleax of yourself for singular enemy.
A creature with a brain that's been fusion'd with an ooze with the split ability.
A lich for its phylactery.
A creature that's been hiveminded with other creatures for its hivemind ability.
An ice assassin of a DvR 20 god.
Various creatures with immunities to everything nasty you can think of that you don't already have.
There's an undead creature (I want to say the living wall) that hiveminds with bodies it absorbs, and all are controlled separately.
And lots more.

Now whenever you split, you'll hivemind your bodies together, and both will regenerate. Split yourself thousands of times over and spread your bodies out amongst the stars and the planes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I feel like the biggest problem with Continual Resurrection is that it won't overcome a simple soul bind spell, which isn't a worry that an undead has to deal with.

Undead instead have to deal with being vulnerable to Command Undead in the same way. In addition to all the other anti-undead options.

Also keep in mind that there are quite a few perks that specifically pierce undead immunities (to mind-affecting effects or sneak attacks for example).
That's usually not something a humanoid (or most other types) has to worry about, or at least not as much.
Undead may come with a whole bunch of innate immunities that are very powerful in most levels of play, but they're also the type with the most options geared towards killing them by far.

[RatElemental]

Getting flashbacks to the fortified fortress of fortitude I tried to build once...

Anyway, what about contingent revive undead and being a vampire/lich?

[Hellpyre]

Undead instead have to deal with being vulnerable to Command Undead in the same way. In addition to all the other anti-undead options.

Also keep in mind that there are quite a few perks that specifically pierce undead immunities (to mind-affecting effects or sneak attacks for example).
That's usually not something a humanoid (or most other types) has to worry about, or at least not as much.
Undead may come with a whole bunch of innate immunities that are very powerful in most levels of play, but they're also the type with the most options geared towards killing them by far.

Oh, certainly. I was expecting the undead aspect mostly as a way to sidestep anti-revival effects. Good old shapechange into a Protean picking up Zodar immunities along with some form of bludgeoning immunity is a much better plan for not being killed in the first place. Ensuring you come back if you get taken out is the part of being a lich worth doing. Especially since it can get you to your phylactery even through anti-teleportation effects (thus the weirdstones in the demiplanes).

I certainly agree that relying on undead immunities is a poor longterm decision.

[magic9mushroom]

As a fun exercise, I'd like to make someone so immortal, killing him would be difficult for even the most powerful characters.

How many immortality tricks can we layer together?

You only really need one, as long as it's sufficiently comprehensive. Ghost with a desire the PCs can't afford to fulfil (e.g. "destroy the world") makes it pretty hard for them to die (IIRC there's a PrC ability or two that can negate it, but nothing widely available). Heroes of Horror has the Soul-Locked template which grants rejuvenation without any bells and whistles, if you don't want undead or ghost flavour.

(Of course, there are ways of defeating somebody without killing them, but you only asked for "difficult to kill".)

[RatElemental]

Wait, what if you just true mind switched with a tarrasque?

[magic9mushroom]

Wait, what if you just true mind switched with a tarrasque?

Incantatrix: Twinned Empowered Maximised Repeated Enervated Cold Admixture Orb of Acid!
Cleric: Miracle: Tarrasque stays dead!

OP said "for even the most powerful characters".

(Tarrasque regen plus immunity to nonlethal is harder to beat, but there's pretty clear RAI that you shouldn't be able to have regeneration and immunity to nonlethal at the same time, so homebrewing a monster with both is likely to annoy players.)

[RatElemental]

Incantatrix: Twinned Empowered Maximised Repeated Enervated Cold Admixture Orb of Acid!
Cleric: Miracle: Tarrasque stays dead!

OP said "for even the most powerful characters".

(Tarrasque regen plus immunity to nonlethal is harder to beat, but there's pretty clear RAI that you shouldn't be able to have regeneration and immunity to nonlethal at the same time, so homebrewing a monster with both is likely to annoy players.)

This is on me for poor wording, but I didn't mean turn into a tarrasque and call it a day. I'm sure a tarrasque astral projecting from a private demiplane with a dozen clones waiting for activation on a dozen other private demiplanes, with contingent resurrection up would be rather hard to dispose of.

Of course that raises the question of if you can resurrect a tarrasque that has been wished dead.

Side note, no need for homebrew. There's a template (ghedan, I think it's called) that grants immunity to nonlethal damage due to being half-undead. I'm sure a sufficiently determined wizard could finagle that onto a tarrasque or a troll.

[AthasianWarlock]

The combo here is Mind rape plus Travel the paths of the mind. Mindrape lets you rewrite someones memeories, travel the paths of the mind lets you travel into someones memeories (but you can't take anything out really if its a magic item)

So you can mindrape someone and in their mind make like a billion gold, plus ice assassins of all the gods. Then you travel the paths of the mind and learn the epic spell that makes one of those epic vaults. In their mind all the gods designate you a proxy and give you one divine rank. Use the wish ritual to be an elan. Also make yourself a demilich and cast hide life for the heck of it. Using various tricks you can then use either the Time Reaver spell, the time travel artifact from dragonlance, or the online WOTC webarticle on time travel (I think its called time gate). Create stasis clones throughout time. Use amovours spell that splits you phylacteries too. Hide those phylacteries throughout time. You can remove the hair of a god from the mind of the mindraped person so it comes with. Make an ice assassin of that God (lets say Mystra) Put one of the deities in the epic vault you made and send it to the end of the time and then mind rape it (have it donate all its DRs away to make it some she can be affected by mind affecting spells), mind rape her so in her memories you are supreme god and remake the universe in her mind however you want it) Then travel the pathes of the mind. Have her revoke all her proxies DRs.

At this point you cant die of all age, are a major deity in a universe where you wrote the rules (you make the rules so you can't die in that universe). Cannot die of old age, cannot die by loss of hit points. Cannot die from spells. You have the special ability to rip magic from any magic user (assuming you grab Mystras weave ability). Someone has to kill the god in the vault first. The vault is impervious to magic. If she dies they now have to kill you. Even if you are killed (somehow). You have 16 or more phylacteries and hundreds of stasis clones around.

The living vault is also impervious to divination. To my knowlege its epic magic and its immune to magic so it even beats metafaculty. Send the living vault into the improsionment plane for extra protection (if you ever need to leave time travel out of there). You can layer in ilithid savant gaining ghost ability and protean hulk ability taking alexa singular enemy ability, magic immunity.

[Hellpyre]

You only really need one, as long as it's sufficiently comprehensive. Ghost with a desire the PCs can't afford to fulfil (e.g. "destroy the world") makes it pretty hard for them to die (IIRC there's a PrC ability or two that can negate it, but nothing widely available). Heroes of Horror has the Soul-Locked template which grants rejuvenation without any bells and whistles, if you don't want undead or ghost flavour.

(Of course, there are ways of defeating somebody without killing them, but you only asked for "difficult to kill".)

Thanatopic Spell in Pathfinder or spark of life in 3.5 both provide ways to apply negative levels to a ghost, turning rejuvenation into a less-than-100%-chance. Neither is a large investment. That's why layering multiple effects is such an important concept.

[Asmotherion]

There's plenty of ways to become unkillable in 3.5, most of them failing in an AMF though, or a disjunction.

If you can figure out a way to protect all your ongoing spells, slas and Su abilities from being supressed or dispelled, it's the true point of imortality. A theoretical Initiate of Mystra/Incantatrix Gestalt would probably do the trick.

Or having marginally high stats like pun pun, but you can't really play such a character, or have it as an Npc without resulting in a number of paradoxes no sane Dm would ever bother to simulate (just think a punch with the energy output of the big bang...get my point?)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you can figure out a way to protect all your ongoing spells, slas and Su abilities from being supressed or dispelled, it's the true point of immortality. A theoretical Initiate of Mystra/Incantatrix Gestalt would probably do the trick.Either Initiate of Mystra is poorly worded, or whoever wrote it decided to make it a bit too specific. Only spells cast inside an AMF or dead magic zone are affected by the feat. If you buff yourself in an area of non-antimagic and you're exposed to an AMF? Sorry, but you just lost all those buffs.

[Crichton]

On the other hand... if a Bag of Holding is put into a Portable Hole, both are sucked into the void of the Astral Plane and forever lost. They're definitely still whole.

Both rupturing the Bag and putting the Bag in a Hole use the same words "lost forever" and "forever lost"

In either case, there's no implication at all that the contents are destroyed. Just that they can never ever by any means or under any circumstances become found, or 'unlost,' so you're right about that part, but I'm not sure where AvatarVecna got the impression that destroying the bag destroyed the contents. The wording doesn't support that at all.


If you achieve immortality first (as easy as taking the Wedded to History feat at first level)


I'm afraid you've got your details mixed up. This seems to be a really really common misconception about Wedded to History. Nothing, at all, in the feat text would indicate that it makes you, or can make you, immortal, ageless, or otherwise undying. The only thing it does is let you choose one of the Ancient Backgrounds outlined in that article, and gain that background's benefits (none of which are anything even close to immortality, either). There is a spell in that same article that gives you the Endless (Ex) special quality (also from that article) which does stop aging, though the Endless special quality is surrounded by text suggesting it's a DM-allowed thing only.



Leave no permanent way into the demiplanes.

Unfortunately there's no RAW way to prevent anyone with access to Wish from still getting there, using Wish's safe usage "Transport Travelers"
Better make sure you have a really warm 'welcome' waiting for them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately there's no RAW way to prevent anyone with access to Wish from still getting there, using Wish's safe usage "Transport Travelers"
Better make sure you have a really warm 'welcome' waiting for them.There are ways to massively discourage it, though. Like making your demiplane unscryable, then making nearly the entirety of the space in your demplane out of riverine with hallways and rooms only large enough for Fine and Diminutive creatures. The main exception is a space large enough to fit a Gargantuan (or squeezing Colossal) creature in it, but it's filled with quintessence. Anyone who wishes themselves into your demiplane and isn't teeny-tiny appears in the quintessence and is then removed from the timestream permanently. And I don't think there are many defenses against getting covered in quintessence unless you're a time dragon.

[Hellpyre]

It depends a lot on how wish functions for its teleport version. Assuming the "ignores local conditions" clause in wish overrules the "prevents teleportation" and "prevents astral travel" clauses from the weirdstone, there's still the problem that the person casting the wish doesn't know the destination they have in mind. Since they can't scry the plane (courtesy of the weirdstone), and they can't use divinations to gain information on the lich, and by extenstion the phylacteries (courtesy of Vecnablooded), you end up with wish being able to bring you there if it can teleport you:

*Somewhere you are unaware of the location of, both physically and cosmologically.
*One of multiple identical places, the number of which you are unaware of
*Despite specific preventative measures that extend to effects that inhibit both teleportation effects in general as well as transport via the astral plane in general, as well as anything replicating such effects.

And if you can do that, then you can always wish to a MacGuffin, even when you don't know what it is or if it exists, which frankly is something you would have to bring up with the DM of a given game. The specifics of how wishing for transport works is not fleshed out terribly well, compared to [teleportation] spells for example.

[Crichton]

There are ways to massively discourage it, though. Like making your demiplane unscryable, then making nearly the entirety of the space in your demplane out of riverine with hallways and rooms only large enough for Fine and Diminutive creatures. The main exception is a space large enough to fit a Gargantuan (or squeezing Colossal) creature in it, but it's filled with quintessence. Anyone who wishes themselves into your demiplane and isn't teeny-tiny appears in the quintessence and is then removed from the timestream permanently. And I don't think there are many defenses against getting covered in quintessence unless you're a time dragon.

Now that's exactly the kind of 'warm welcome' I was talking about!



It depends a lot on how wish functions for its teleport version. Assuming the "ignores local conditions" clause in wish overrules the "prevents teleportation" and "prevents astral travel" clauses from the weirdstone,


Of course it overrules that. Wish's transport is not a teleportation effect, nor is it astral travel. In order for it to be either, it would have to say it was, via descriptor tags or rules text. That's how rules work.



there's still the problem that the person casting the wish doesn't know the destination they have in mind.

Does Wish say that you have to know the destination? It says it can take you from anywhere on any plane, to anywhere on any plane. Other spells that transport you, such as teleportation effects, have text that limits you to places you know, or can describe, etc. Wish doesn't have that text.

Based on what text it does have, simply saying 'take me to the place where Halaster is' is perfectly sufficient.


Since they can't scry the plane (courtesy of the weirdstone),
Clarification: They can't use Divination(Scrying) effects to scry the plane. Any effect that doesn't have those tags (or their equivalent psionic tags) will still function


and they can't use divinations to gain information on the lich, and by extenstion the phylacteries (courtesy of Vecnablooded),
Even less limited than the weirdstone, Vecna-blooded's Cloak of Mystery only works on spells, so it doesn't block gathering information via psionics or supernatural abilities, or anything else that isn't a spell.



*Somewhere you are unaware of the location of, both physically and cosmologically.
Wish doesn't require you to know either of those things.


*One of multiple identical places, the number of which you are unaware of
There's no such thing as 'identical' places. There could be places that look the same as one another, but given they're not in the same location, they're not 'identical' Additionally, unlike the limitations on teleportation effects, Wish doesn't care how similar they look or how many there are. It just takes you where you tell it.



*Despite specific preventative measures that extend to effects that inhibit both teleportation effects in general as well as transport via the astral plane in general, as well as anything replicating such effects.
Again, Wish doesn't have descriptor tags nor rules text saying it's either a teleportation effect or travel via the astral plane. It just works.


And if you can do that, then you can always wish to a MacGuffin, even when you don't know what it is or if it exists, which frankly is something you would have to bring up with the DM of a given game.
You could Wish yourself to a MacGuffin, but you'd need to know enough about it to tell Wish where to take you. "The thing that wins the campaign" probably isn't specific enough. A proper name, thorough detailed description, etc, would do it, one would presume. But if you don't know what it is enough to tell Wish to take you to it, then no, you can't.



The specifics of how wishing for transport works is not fleshed out terribly well, compared to [teleportation] spells for example.
That's partially true, in that there is some bit of leeway there, but not anything close to the amount of wiggle room you seem to be thinking. Most of the clauses and provisos that teleportation effects have and Wish doesn't are limitations and restrictions that are specifically imposed on teleportation effects, and which are not imposed on Wish transport.


What it really boils down to is that, as was said above, there are ways to discourage Wish transport or make it more difficult, but there is nothing in the rules anywhere that actually prevents it. Not even deities, or epic spells, unless I've missed some effect in those rules subsets that specifically says otherwise.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not sure if this would work, but...

If a spell affects the inside of a creature, it affects that creature, no? Even if it's just to teleport something inside that creature? So that would mean that using wish to transport oneself (or someone else) inside another creature would affect that creature, thereby rendering things like immunities, resistances, and saving throws viable, yes?

So what happens if you equip an item with the Spellblade [Wish] property (such as a +1 poison ring) onto that creature? Would it be immune to having a creature transported inside of it?

Now, make said poison ring out of a very large piece of crystal or gem, and turn that into your psicrystal (or otherwise enhance your psicrystal with the Spellblade property). Take levels in planar vanguard (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a). Turn your psicrystal into a demiplane. That is now immune to having things transported into it via wish. Feel free to do the same with miracle, (psionic) plane shift, etc, with the only way inside via a portal keyed to you, or via a specially researched teleportation spell.

Would that work?

[edit] Before anyone says that the demiplane is no longer a creature, it still has Wis and Cha scores. By D&D's definition, it's most definitely still a creature.

[Hellpyre]

Now that's exactly the kind of 'warm welcome' I was talking about! If you aren't applying the other restrictions of teleportation effects, why feel that it still has the requirement that it needa to put you down somewhere you fit? That is also specifically a restriction placed on teleportation effects (not to mention the problems with returning from your phylactery into such a place)



You could Wish yourself to a MacGuffin, but you'd need to know enough about it to tell Wish where to take you. "The thing that wins the campaign" probably isn't specific enough. A proper name, thorough detailed description, etc, would do it, one would presume. But if you don't know what it is enough to tell Wish to take you to it, then no, you can't.


That was part of my point. If you say "take me to XXX's phylactery", not knowing that there are nine of them, what happens? Do you go to one at random? Does the spell fail? Do you just go to whichever closest fits your mental image of a phylactery? There is a lot undefined about how it operates, and so the DM either falls back on other teleportation effects (which is more than just [teleportation] effects, incidentally) or else is inventing the workings wholecloth. Neither is better than the other as far as actual play, but it's difficult to discuss from a RAW perspective with the answer is "it doesn't say anything else". What consitutes 'enough' to know where to take you, and why would you argue it has that restriction? As far as the spell description, it brings you from one point on a plane to one point on a (possibly different) plane, but it doesn't say anything about identifying that place.

I guess my argument here boils down to this: if wish has no restrictions placed on it as a means of transport, is it reasonable to add restrictions to it for a RAW discussion? If yes, what do you use for the basis of those restrictions, if not the ones placed on other effects? It seems unreasonable to add them piecemeal based on what seems to make sense, without adding the others that come from the same place. In the context of an actual game, with an actual DM making rulings for that game, sure, it is reasonable. But if we are talking about a theoretical game, I'd argue you really face an all-or-nothing situation on adding in general restrictions on teleportation.

As an aside, that isn't to say there isn't precedent for a transit spell that doesn't use teleportation as a means of moving (master earth exists, for example), but they tend to be clear on how they function. Otherwise, however, the only general guideline I know of is found under the Astral Plane description, which states in part


When a character moves through an interplanar portal or projects her spirit to a different plane of existence, she travels through the Astral Plane. Even spells that allow instantaneous movement across a plane briefly touch the Astral Plane

and gives no reason to expect a wish to function differently.

[Rater202]

If you're willing to play with templates, then starting with a War-Troll then applying the Gheddon and Half-Dragon(Black, Green, or any other type immune to acid) would result in a troll that is immune to hit-point damage and stunning. You'd need something to cover instant death effects and the fact that it'll eventually die of old age and it's vulnerable to Turn Undead, but...

[Bohandas]

The rejuvenation salient divine ability from Deities And Demigods and the soul locked trait from Hero4s Of Horror are possible redundancies for ghostly rejuvenation

[Crichton]

I guess my argument here boils down to this: if wish has no restrictions placed on it as a means of transport, is it reasonable to add restrictions to it for a RAW discussion? .

In such a RAW discussion, no, it would never be reasonable to add restrictions that aren't there in the text. In practice, clarifying the need for a detailed and thorough naming or description of where you want Wish to take you isn't really a 'restriction' so much as requiring you to be specific about what you want Wish to do. But forcing it to adhere to limitations that are placed on other sorts of travel spells/effects but that aren't placed on Wish would be a violation of Wish's rules entry. Wish can safely do exactly what the entry says it can. In the case of transport, it can safely transport travelers from anywhere on any plane to anywhere on any other plane, regardless of local conditions (presumably that means local conditions on either end). So unless another spell or effect or bit of rules text somewhere says 'this effect can even block Wish's transport ability' or some equivalent text to explicitly overrule that, then nothing, absolutely nothing, can prevent it, by RAW. DMs are, of course, free to adjust as desired, as always.



As for your 9 phylacteries example, clearly the caster of Wish wasn't specific enough, so the DM is well within their rights to safely transport them to any of the 9 phylacteries, as they would all qualify. But if instead of saying 'take me to Asmagardean's phylactery' they said 'take me to Asmagardean' the Wish would unfailingly transport them to wherever Asmagardean was. (name made up for example)


Sure, they probably should have laid out a few more specifics about how that's implemented, and how Wish transport is different from teleporting, or whatever. They didn't so we're left with just that little snippet of text to go off of, but it seems clear they wanted Wish to be unblockable.

[Oberron]

I made something that might fit the bill. Made a thread about it to but didn't get a lot of traction here is what I posted.

Using only official paizo pathfinder(anything that is made by paizo and has pathfinder on the name) abilities/feats and such I have came up with the following using the already brokenness of brew fleshcraft poison from the pathfinder adventure endless Night and wonder if there is a 'better' abuse then this. using 25pt buy and 70,000 gp

There are some limits to the feat (only 14 body slots to use for the fleshcrafting is the biggest one) as well as some slightly unknowns to it (dc save is the biggest) but this is going on the base assumption that the save is passed or at least not a natural 1 rolled. But there are some useful benefits to the feat as well such as making original creations (in this case changing spells into other spells from creature's casting abilities)

build:
Race: Drow Nobel
Stats:
STR 7
Dex 19
Con 13
Int 22
Wis 9
Cha 14

Traits:Reactonary
Eyes and ears of the city

Class:Spirit Whisperer wizard 10
1st:scribe scroll(wizard),toughness(1st lvl feat), Heavens spirit,Familier: Green-sting scorpion(call him scorpio)
3rd:Improved Initiative
5th:(at this point you can gain a hex instead of a bonus feat for wizard at this point we grab Starburn this lets us grab the extra hex feat sine we now have the ability to gain hexes) Extra hex: Coven
7th:Extra hex: scar
8th:You gain Void Adaptation letting you see into deeperdarkness and increases your darkvision by another 30ft
9th:Shake it off
10th:Brew fleshcrafting poison

Since any ability is un-fair game for BFP we grab the following:
1:Efreeti genie wish 3/day (this already is abuse here since the efreeti's wish says "non-efreeti only" under its wishs)
2:Will-o-wisp Immune Magic
3:Allip's Incorporeal (should be gotten last if you wanna make "sense" of this exercise)
4:Small Fire elemental's Immune fire
5:Xtabay's Immune Acid
6:Balor Lord's StormLord ability
7:Balor Lord's Master of Magic (as a custom creation)
8:Tarrasque's Regeneration
9:Nightgaunt's Faceless
10:Formian Worker's Formian Traits
11:Empyreal Lord Korada's Empyreal Lord Traits
12:Medium Skeleton's Undead traits(literally called Undead traits that can be found on paizo's offical website under universal monster abilities)
13:Lipika Aeon's Force Blast
14:Ochre Jelly's Split

With this buffet of abilities the caster now has the following:

Wish 3/day (SPL CL 11th), Immune fire, Immune to spells and spell-like abilities that allow SR, except magic missile and maze, incorporeal (immune to all nonmagical attack forms, half damage from spells or magic weapons, 50% chance of non-damaging spells and effects to affect, +cha deflection bonus, attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, can’t fall or take falling damage, can’t be tripped or grappled or make trip/grapple attempts, no str score, dex applied to melee/ranged and CMD attacks, can move full speed even if cannot see), Immune acid, Split (immune to piercing/slashing/electricity damage. Instead the creature splits, each with half of the original creature’s current hit point total rounded down. A jelly with 10 hp or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hp), Master of Magic(additional spell-like abilities, 20 spell levels of 1-4th lvl useable at will and 20 spell levels worth of 5-8th useable 3 times a day), StormLord(change fire damage into electricity damage. Electricity resistance is halved and immunity is treated as resistance 20), Regeneration 40 (No attack can suppress, rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hp if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains), faceless (no face but can see in all directions, immune to gaze attacks, no need to breathe, immune to all inhaled and scent-based effects), Formian traits (darkvision 60, blindsense 30, hive mind(+4 racial to initiative and perception. If at least one disbelieves an illusion, all within its telepathic range also disbelieve. If one is aware of combatants, all other within range also aware of combatants, resistance to sonic 10, cast spells as spell-like abilities, telepathy 60ft), Empyreal Lord traits(Blindsense 60, greater teleport at will(cl20), immunity to ability damage, abaility drain, charm, compulsion, death effects, energy drain, petrification, Immunity to electricity, resistance cold and sonic 30, lay on hands (EL=hd), speak with animals, truespeech (tongues), Undead Traits (immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects, paralysis,poison,sleep,stun, any effect that requires a fort save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless, not subject to ability drain, energy drain, nonlethal damage, immune to damage or penalities to physical ability scores, as well as fatigue and exhaustion effects, not at risk of death from massive damage, force blast (can fire a force blast as an attack ation or four force blast as a full-attack action. These blast are ranged touch attacks with a maximum range of 300 ft. Each force blast deals 10d6 points of damage and has a critical threat range of 19-20. This is a force effect.)


With the custom Master of Magic SPL:
At-Will:
Fireball
Dispel Magic
Etheric Shards
Divine Power
Black Tentacles
Shatter

3/Day:
Disintegrate
polymorph any object
True Seeing

Now the wizard does the following.
1:Cast Etheric Shards on herself. This now splits the wizard (if at max hp) in half which the two 'halves' are still in the area causeing them to split making a total of four, which are still in the area causing them to split into eight, which are all still in the area causing them to split for the 4th time into sixteen total creatures with about 7 hp each.
2: All 16 copies spend a wish each to each make a Simulacrum of themselves, the Simulacrum will only be at 1/2 lvl and with none of the brew fleshcraft poison abilities and such but that won't last for long.
3:Each split copy now uses a use of master of magic Polymorph any object spell on the Simulacrums turning them all into the real deal
meaning it would gain everything Super-Drow has ability wise.
4: Each of the P.A.O Super-Drows repeat steps 1-4.

Do this for about 5 minuets and you should have over 1 trillion of you. Everyone stay in a cube formation and because of the teamwork feat everyyou gains +4 to all saves. And with coven and scar hexes your caster level as high as 4Pi(R^2) or 17,516,524 since that is as many yous you can get in a mile-1. But lets just drop that down to 190 you's using aid another to boost CL for an even CL 200, this gives you 92,192 casters with a cl of 200 (BTW with a caster lvl in the 17 millions one can cast Disintegrate at the range of 33,175 MILES, that is over 1/10th the distance of the earth to the moon still nothing for pun-pun but impressive non the less)

With the formian traits all your spell casting is done as SLA meaning no need for materials or such nonsense as well as a hivemind network with all of you.

+20 to inititave, from Divine power you get +6 luck to attack, weapon damage as well as an extra attack if you full round attack, +dex to-hit, ignore armor, natural armor and shields with any attack(aside from force).

Storm Lord ability lets you switch out the damage from fire on your spells and SLA and turn it into electric damage that ignores immunity (treating it as resistance 20) and halfing all resistances. If something has a save then just use the Lipika's Force blast that crits on a 19-20 for 10d6 force damage with that many yous there is bound to be some crits in there. Starburn hex lets you cast 1d6 fire per 2/levels with no cap, this means 87,582,620 d6 fire for an average of 306,539,170 damage (only 153,269,585 for half on a succesful save at a dc 153,269,603 fortsave) since coven improves your hex's lvl as well.

As far as I can tell is immune or nearly immune to all damage and any damage it does take can heal from and has plenty of 'clones' as well that can keep churning out more never endingly

[Hellpyre]

3:Each split copy now uses a use of master of magic Polymorph any object spell on the Simulacrums turning them all into the real deal
meaning it would gain everything Super-Drow has ability wise.

Couple of problems - if you use the version spells updated for Pathfinder, PAO grants very specific abilities, as per alter form. If you are picking and choosing, 3.5 PAO still restricts you to being a copy of an average member of a given race, which it inherits from polymorph (which in turn inherits it from alter self)

Also, you know, the part where arbitrary abilities leads to Pun-Pun, which isn't really what the OP asked for.

[Zancloufer]

If you're willing to play with templates, then starting with a War-Troll then applying the Gheddon and Half-Dragon(Black, Green, or any other type immune to acid) would result in a troll that is immune to hit-point damage and stunning. You'd need something to cover instant death effects and the fact that it'll eventually die of old age and it's vulnerable to Turn Undead, but...

Even better : Half-Clay-Golem Were-Dire-Bat Gheden (Air Racial Variant) Half-Troll War Trolls (IE the Emerald Legion).

IIRC their immunites cover:
-Lethal HP damage that isn't acid.
-Immunity to Slashing/Acid/Piercing. Acid actually heals them
-Any Spell (Like ability) that allows SR
-Anything that requires a Fort save that doesn't effect objects.
-Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
-Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
-Ability drain, or energy drain.
-Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution)
-Fatigue and exhaustion effects.
-Any polymorph/shapechanging/petrification etc.
-Suffocation or Drowning.


Might be a few others but there is almost no way to kill these things other than a few "You Just Die" things that are impossible to protect against other than DM FIAT.

[Oberron]

Couple of problems - if you use the version spells updated for Pathfinder, PAO grants very specific abilities, as per alter form. If you are picking and choosing, 3.5 PAO still restricts you to being a copy of an average member of a given race, which it inherits from polymorph (which in turn inherits it from alter self)

Also, you know, the part where arbitrary abilities leads to Pun-Pun, which isn't really what the OP asked for.

Then replace PAO with ice assassin. It may want to kill you but it is still under your absolute command.

It isn't pun-pun and no where close and op asked for how many layers of immortal can something be. It doesn't reach infinite power, and doesn't need "perfect storm" of template stacking or diviNE ranks or other commonly "dm only" toys and has a very large and redundant amount of defensive abilities. Haveing a large amount of active redundant bodies is a pretty solid safety net. The brewfleshcraft poison is a very poorly worded feat that takes discussion with the dm to use in the first place I used a as close to raw as possible reading of it. It's a feat that can be easily abused with little thought taken to an extreme point of highly unlikely to be killed. You can easily ignore the hex stuff and majority of the offensive powers it has and it would still qualify.

[Hellpyre]

Then replace PAO with ice assassin. It may want to kill you but it is still under your absolute command.


Doesn't qualify because it's a ninth-level spell. But that isn't really my point here. This is for an actual game, so trying to argue for the ability to add arbitrary monster abilities via a poorly-worded feat requiring DM permission to function outside of the few fleshcrafting poisons actually described doesn't seem terribly conducive to the point at hand.

It's one thing to argue what is or isn't RAW. It's a whole other thing to try and recommend extremely TO shenanigans for use in a game, for a character that PCs are meant to actually encounter.

[Oberron]

Doesn't qualify because it's a ninth-level spell. But that isn't really my point here. This is for an actual game, so trying to argue for the ability to add arbitrary monster abilities via a poorly-worded feat requiring DM permission to function outside of the few fleshcrafting poisons actually described doesn't seem terribly conducive to the point at hand.

It's one thing to argue what is or isn't RAW. It's a whole other thing to try and recommend extremely TO shenanigans for use in a game, for a character that PCs are meant to actually encounter.

The ability can add monster abilities that aren't the ones listed. Even has a formula to determine how to do it that isn't the part that needs dm permission to make work, which is moot since it seems that it's the dm who is asking for TO shenanigans in the first place.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember all those stories where a character is cursed with eternal life, and how it's supposedly horrible?

Yeeeeah... (https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/bestow-curse-greater--3946/)

[Calthropstu]

The ability can add monster abilities that aren't the ones listed. Even has a formula to determine how to do it that isn't the part that needs dm permission to make work, which is moot since it seems that it's the dm who is asking for TO shenanigans in the first place.

While true, I prefer a level of realism here. Using simulacrum to true mindswitch into actual bodies is enough for me. Plus, I feel making a clone of yourself who wants to end your life is something that should backfire horribly. Plus, it's just a more powerful version of the same thing with an added caveat that "I WILL KILL YOU MASTER IF IT'S THE LAST THING I DO." So Ice Assassin is definitely out. Making a bunch of clones, becoming a lich, spawning more of yourself into being with mind seed, true mind switching back and forth, and all sorts of other abuses are fine. With work, (A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK) PCs could theoretically eventually kill this guy. But it will never be easy. I do not want to make it actually impossible.

[Oberron]

While true, I prefer a level of realism here. Using simulacrum to true mindswitch into actual bodies is enough for me. Plus, I feel making a clone of yourself who wants to end your life is something that should backfire horribly. Plus, it's just a more powerful version of the same thing with an added caveat that "I WILL KILL YOU MASTER IF IT'S THE LAST THING I DO." So Ice Assassin is definitely out. Making a bunch of clones, becoming a lich, spawning more of yourself into being with mind seed, true mind switching back and forth, and all sorts of other abuses are fine. With work, (A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK) PCs could theoretically eventually kill this guy. But it will never be easy. I do not want to make it actually impossible.

Then don't use ice assassin. Can just use the splits. And you don't even have to use it as it. Take it as a template to make your own freak of nature

You want the most immortal immortal who has ever immortaled. Being killable is the easy answer. Figureing out how to imprison or trap an immortal forever or at least until everyone in the current Era is dead from age is the bigger idea.

If you don't want truly immortal then comes down to how durable you want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

spawning more of yourself into being with mind seed
I don't think that's a good idea for most characters who are actually evil enough to do it.
You don't get any control over the new you and they're just as much of a bastard as you after all.

They're also copies of you - at level -8, but with all your memories. That makes them security risks that are easily captured by anything you actually care about.

It's a fine power if you're some kind of fanatic cultist (making more servants for whatever) or some other kind of member in something greater.
But if you're the BBEG yourself all you're doing is spending XP on creating security risks and possible rivals.
If you were the kind of guy you could trust not to stab you in the back you wouldn't be willing to use Mind Seed.

[ShurikVch]

Curst (Lost Empires of Faerûn)
Tarterian Creature (The Shackled City Adventure Path)
Entropomancer 10 (Complete Divine)
Body modification with Proof against Transmutation (Complete Arcane/Dragon #359)
Runes of Spell Immunity (Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, Greater Dispel Magic)

Thus, the only thing in the D&D 3.X which is able to actually "kill" (destroy) you is either too strong Turn Undead, or sufficiently lucky Hunter of the Dead of at least 5th level

[Bohandas]

Curst (Lost Empires of Faerûn)
Tarterian Creature (The Shackled City Adventure Path)
Entropomancer 10 (Complete Divine)
Body modification with Proof against Transmutation (Complete Arcane/Dragon #359)
Runes of Spell Immunity (Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, Greater Dispel Magic)

Thus, the only thing in the D&D 3.X which is able to actually "kill" (destroy) you is either too strong Turn Undead, or sufficiently lucky Hunter of the Dead of at least 5th level

They might arguably also be vulnerable to the Life and Death SDA

[ShurikVch]

They might arguably also be vulnerable to the Life and Death SDALife and Death SDA, for "killing" purposes, works like Destruction spell
Which allows Fort save
Thus, Undead is immune...

[RatElemental]

Life and Death SDA, for "killing" purposes, works like Destruction spell
Which allows Fort save
Thus, Undead is immune...

"If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw."

[ShurikVch]

Still, Destruction is [death] spell, and Undead is immune to [death] effects

[Segev]

There are also living zombies. Unfortunately, I can't remember the source on these, but they're a way to stave off aging. You bind living zombies to you when you make them out of living people, and they take half your aging for you. Aging twice as fast to halve your aging rate.

Replace as they wear out.

You can stack them to slow it further.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are also living zombies. Unfortunately, I can't remember the source on these, but they're a way to stave off aging. You bind living zombies to you when you make them out of living people, and they take half your aging for you. Aging twice as fast to halve your aging rate.

Replace as they wear out.

You can stack them to slow it further.

Unapproachable East has them. Pretty easy to create too iirc.

[Vrock Bait]

The only guaranteed, no-phylactery-destroyed-line method of immortality I know of in 3.5 is becoming a Vampire Lord, per the web enhancement.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The only guaranteed, no-phylactery-destroyed-line method of immortality I know of in 3.5 is becoming a Vampire Lord, per the web enhancement.

And a ghost with impossible to resolve unfinished business and at least 15HD.

[ShurikVch]

The only guaranteed, no-phylactery-destroyed-line method of immortality I know of in 3.5 is becoming a Vampire Lord, per the web enhancement.Not guaranteed: True Death CF (Hunter of the Dead) would still destroy them permanently


And a ghost with impossible to resolve unfinished business and at least 15HD.
Same as above

[Crichton]

Not guaranteed: True Death CF (Hunter of the Dead) would still destroy them permanently


Well, almost permanently, anyway. They could always be True Resurrected back to their pre-undead self (assuming they'd be willing to come back in that less powerful state, rather than never come back at all, that is. Or presuming a deity would use their Gift of Life SDA to force them to come back unwillingly)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always find of the numerous ways to become a worm that walks.

Or a hivemind.

Or use illithid savant to eat a bunch of stuff that's invulnerable and immortal, like an aleax of yourself's singular enemy + the tarrasque's regeneration + high ranked deity's ice assassin's DvR + a celestial's at will plane shift to prevent yourself getting trapped under a landslide or something.