Planar Binding: Does this work?

[Guy Lombard-O]

So I just watched one of my favorite D&D talking heads channels, and saw a comment posted about Planar Binding. For whatever reason, the question was raised about whether 1 caster could technically summon a demon or elemental or whatnot, and then Bind it, or whether the spells were written in such a way as to prevent 1 caster from doing it all by himself.

The comment suggested (in pertinent part) that one way to get it all done was:


Step 1: Cast Glyph of Warding at 5th level (or higher) slot, set to go off when a (critter) steps on it;
Step 2: Cast Planar Binding into the Glyph, at same level;
Step 3: Cast Magic Circle (in case critter makes save and you need a head start);
Step 4: Summon the critter (whatever it may be) into the Circle.

Voila! Bound extra-planar critter!

So my question is, is that all correct and a viable way for 1 caster to do it all by him/herself? :smallconfused:

[MaxWilson]

So I just watched one of my favorite D&D talking heads channels, and saw a comment posted about Planar Binding. For whatever reason, the question was raised about whether 1 caster could technically summon a demon or elemental or whatnot, and then Bind it, or whether the spells were written in such a way as to prevent 1 caster from doing it all by himself.

The comment suggested (in pertinent part) that one way to get it all done was:

So my question is, is that all correct and a viable way for 1 caster to do it all by him/herself? :smallconfused:

I don't believe so, no, unless your goal is to make the creature obey a glyph (which isn't even around any more) instead of you.

What you can do however is upcast Magic Circle so it lasts for two hours, then cast Conjure Elemental into the circle, and then immediate begin casting Planar Binding. This works because "If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn’t disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled elemental can’t be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it."

[stoutstien]

sorcerer can With extended magic circle. divine soul is a very potent summoner.

[MaxWilson]

sorcerer can With extended magic circle. divine soul is a very potent summoner.

Magic Circle can be upcast for extra duration by anybody, no metamagic needed.

[Scarytincan]

Could also just use the glyph to cast the summons instead of the binding if I'm not mistaken.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I don't believe so, no, unless your goal is to make the creature obey a glyph (which isn't even around any more) instead of you.

What you can do however is upcast Magic Circle so it lasts for two hours, then cast Conjure Elemental into the circle, and then immediate begin casting Planar Binding. This works because "If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn’t disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled elemental can’t be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it."

The issue was that the Conjure spell only lasts for "up to 1 hour", while the Binding spell takes 1 hour (not 59 minutes and 54 seconds) to cast. You cannot begin casting the Binding until after the Conjure is complete - presumably the next round. But your conjured elemental will technically disappear 6 seconds before it's possible to complete the Binding spell.

While we could well argue about whether this is the RAI by WotC, it is in fact the literal RAW. And you can say that it'd only be a **** DM who'd abide by the RAW in this case, of course. But the counter argument seems to be that maybe the WotC's RAI is that it not be possible for 1 single caster to accomplish such a binding, but rather it needs to be a group effort.

That aside, I'm not sure I accept that the Binding put into a Glyph is rendered ineffective in that it doesn't count as the original caster's spell for purposes of control. Is that really how the Glyph spell is supposed to work?


Originally posted by Scarytincan

Could also just use the glyph to cast the summons instead of the binding if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, that seems like it would be equally valid. And would avoid MaxWilson's issue with the nature of the Glyph casting the Binding.

[MaxWilson]

The issue was that the Conjure spell only lasts for "up to 1 hour", while the Binding spell takes 1 hour (not 59 minutes and 56 seconds) to cast. You cannot begin casting the Binding until after the Conjure is complete - presumably the next round. But your conjured elemental will technically disappear 6 seconds before it's possible to complete the Binding spell.

While we could well argue about whether this is the RAI by WotC, it is in fact the literal RAW.

That's very controversial, and in fact I didn't think you were making this particular argument because in that case, having multiple casters won't help you anyway. If the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and it takes 1 hour to cast a spell, and you've got a DM who insists that this requires you to start casting Planar Binding at the exact instant that the elemental appears...

"Sorry dude, your buddy didn't start casting Planar Binding until 6 microseconds after Conjure Elemental took effect, so the elemental disappears 6 microseconds before Planar Binding takes effect."


And you can say that it'd only be a **** DM who'd abide by the RAW in this case, of course. But the counter argument seems to be that maybe the WotC's RAI is that it not be possible for 1 single caster to accomplish such a binding, but rather it needs to be a group effort.

Group efforts don't help--there's no way to avoid having at least a fractional-round delay.

And BTW there's no RAW guidance on how to count rounds for durations. Some spells, like Blade Ward, which last for 1 round, last long enough for you to take another action: these spells appear to last for six seconds and a fraction more, or perhaps they're an ongoing activity which lasts for six seconds. By this precedent it's reasonable to say that Conjure Elemental gives you 600 actions before the elemental disappears, and casting Planar Binding takes 600 actions, so it works. But RAW doesn't say so explicitly.


That aside, I'm not sure I accept that the Binding put into a Glyph is rendered ineffective in that it doesn't count as the original caster's spell for purposes of control. Is that really how the Glyph spell is supposed to work?

Seems like it: you don't get to choose targeting, for example, it's chosen by the Glyph (always centered on the creature who triggered it).

[Sigreid]

The issue was that the Conjure spell only lasts for "up to 1 hour", while the Binding spell takes 1 hour (not 59 minutes and 54 seconds) to cast. You cannot begin casting the Binding until after the Conjure is complete - presumably the next round. But your conjured elemental will technically disappear 6 seconds before it's possible to complete the Binding spell.

While we could well argue about whether this is the RAI by WotC, it is in fact the literal RAW. And you can say that it'd only be a **** DM who'd abide by the RAW in this case, of course. But the counter argument seems to be that maybe the WotC's RAI is that it not be possible for 1 single caster to accomplish such a binding, but rather it needs to be a group effort.

That aside, I'm not sure I accept that the Binding put into a Glyph is rendered ineffective in that it doesn't count as the original caster's spell for purposes of control. Is that really how the Glyph spell is supposed to work?



Actually, that seems like it would be equally valid. And would avoid MaxWilson's issue with the nature of the Glyph casting the Binding.

What about the glyph to cast the binding circle as soon as the creature appears? In this case your entire ritual would have you cast the glyph, summon the critter and immediately start the binding. Should work but be a challenging and somewhat risky endevor.

[Theaitetos]

Use Forcecage instead of Magic Circle. Even if 1h since the summoning have passed, the creature can't planar travel back until the Forcecage ends or it passes a CHA save against your spell save DC.

Or put the summoning in the Glyph, though you can't upcast the summoning to level 9 then, as you only have 1 9th-level spell-slot.

[Guy Lombard-O]

That's very controversial, and in fact I didn't think you were making this particular argument because in that case, having multiple casters won't help you anyway. If the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and it takes 1 hour to cast a spell, and you've got a DM who insists that this requires you to start casting Planar Binding at the exact instant that the elemental appears...

"Sorry dude, your buddy didn't start casting Planar Binding until 6 microseconds after Conjure Elemental took effect, so the elemental disappears 6 microseconds before Planar Binding takes effect."



Group efforts don't help--there's no way to avoid having at least a fractional-round delay.

I think the idea would be that the second caster with the Binding is holding his action...?

[MaxWilson]

I think the idea would be that the second caster with the Binding is holding his action...?

Doesn't work. Planar Binding is not eligible for readied casting.

When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell's magic requires concentration. If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile, your web spell ends, and if you take damage before you release magic missile with your reaction, your concentration might be broken.

[Scarytincan]

Use Forcecage instead of Magic Circle. Even if 1h since the summoning have passed, the creature can't planar travel back until the Forcecage ends or it passes a CHA save against your spell save DC.

Or put the summoning in the Glyph, though you can't upcast the summoning to level 9 then, as you only have 1 9th-level spell-slot.

I feel like the devs addressed this one at some point, stating being unsummoned wasn't the same as planar travel. Will try to see if I can dig it up... Maybe it was in regards to dimensional shackles... Can't find it atm however. :(