Artillerist protector cannon: a new challenger for THP King?

[stoutstien]

I have been comparing all the group wide sources of THPs(temporary hit points) to see which ones stand out. The parameters are that it must effect at least 3+ targets, not have a short duration, availability, target restrictions, and action economy.
The finalist:
Circle of shepherd druid's bear spirit totem. (Bonus action to create a 30 ft radius within 60 feet. THP = 5 + druid level. Recharges on short/long rest.)
Pros - huge area, large value of THP, not a spell, scales well, good action economy, doesn't require much set up.
Cons - no way to increase THP value, may want to save totem for emergencies with unicorn, no way regain uses other than rests.

College of glamour bards
(Bonus action to select a number of targets equal to your Cha modifier that can you can see and can see you. Each target gain 5 THP at lv 3. Increases to 8 at 5th, 11 at 10th, and 14 at 15th. Cost per use is one of your bardic inspiration dice)
Pros - targeting is flexible and huge potential range, gaining up to 5 uses per short rest, not a spell, good action economy in addition to allowing reaction movement
Cons - THP values are low per use, conflicts with standard use of bardic inspiration, sight can be an issue, no way to increase THP value, self targeting is questionable

Inspiring leader feat
(10 minutes spent inspiring up to 6 targets, including self, within 30 feet to provide THP = your level + Cha modifier. Recharges sort or long rest)
Pros - any class can pick it up if they have 13 Cha, available at level one with proper race, infinite uses with recharge based on target, scales well
Cons - 10 minutes is a long time in some cases, costs a feat, limit ways to increase value of THP, have to finish rest before you can reuse on party unless DM allows you to start the timer at the end of the rest

Artillerist protector cannon
( As a bonus action 10 ft burst of THP to anyone you choose, including itself, 1D8+ int modifier. Last one hour. Action to summon and lasts one hour. First use free then cost spell slots for additional uses per day)
Pros - unlimited targeting giving time, ok action economy, ok THP value, can be carried/worn or act as an independent unit directed by the player, highest theoretical threshold if facing sources of unavoidable but low damage like running through a burning building/forest, first one is free and long duration.
Cons - low range, conflicts with damage cannons, THP value never scales, set up is more action intensive, additional uses cost spell slots, duration value is very table style dependent

Honorable mentions
Celestial warlock - mini inspiring leader feat but comes online at lv10.
Dream druid - adding THP to a healing effect is solid but limit to one target per use.


I know this is going to be highly subjective but I'm just wondering which one do players look at and see the best party THP buffer option.

[BruceLeeroy]

I haven't played the newest iteration of the artificer, so I might be wrong, but doesn't the THP on the artificer turret refresh every round as long as you use the bonus action? So it's a d8 of damage reduction every round if you're in a fight. For the whole party. Seems like the clear winner by a mile.

[HappyDaze]

I haven't played the newest iteration of the artificer, so I might be wrong, but doesn't the THP on the artificer turret refresh every round as long as you use the bonus action? So it's a d8 of damage reduction every round if you're in a fight. For the whole party. Seems like the clear winner by a mile.

It's 1d8 + Int modifier (minimum +1) actually, with a new application each time the Bonus Action is spent. It's very strong.

[MaxWilson]

I haven't played the newest iteration of the artificer, so I might be wrong, but doesn't the THP on the artificer turret refresh every round as long as you use the bonus action? So it's a d8 of damage reduction every round if you're in a fight. For the whole party. Seems like the clear winner by a mile.

Depends on AC. For a low-AC party that takes lots of damage every round, Inspiring Leader/Bear Spirit THP will be quickly depleted, and Artificer will be very nice. For a more defensive, high-AC-and-other-defenses party, a little bit of Inspiring Leader goes a long way, and many fights won't even chew all the way through your THP, whereas Artificer's THP isn't enough to save you from even the one lucky crit (or whatever) that does land.

I don't think it's possible to choose an overall winner, but for my own preferred playstyle Inspiring Leader and Bear Spirit are tied for first, and conveniently they work together too: you can use Inspiring Leader before combat, and save Bear Spirit for clutch moments after combat has started.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd reluctantly pick Bear Spirit because it works better with in-combat summons like Conjure Animals + Bear Spirit, and because there's no controversy over whether you can use it to boost e.g. animated skeletons. (Some people think that skeletons never count as "friendly" even if you control them and are therefore never eligible for Inspiring Leader THP.)


It's 1d8 + Int modifier (minimum +1) actually, with a new application each time the Bonus Action is spent. It's very strong.

It's about the same amount of THP as a Heroism spell (5 THP, refreshing every round), which IME is not as strong as it sounds. It's never really worth 50 HP per cast.

Artificer turret IMO isn't strong per se, it's just cheap and effective.

[stoutstien]

Depends on AC. For a low-AC party that takes lots of damage every round, Inspiring Leader/Bear Spirit THP will be quickly depleted, and Artificer will be very nice. For a more defensive, high-AC-and-other-defenses party, a little bit of Inspiring Leader goes a long way, and many fights won't even chew all the way through your THP, whereas Artificer's THP isn't enough to save you from even the one lucky crit (or whatever) that does land.

I don't think it's possible to choose an overall winner, but for my own preferred playstyle Inspiring Leader and Bear Spirit are tied for first, and conveniently they work together too: you can use Inspiring Leader before combat, and save Bear Spirit for clutch moments after combat has started.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd reluctantly pick Bear Spirit because it works better with in-combat summons like Conjure Animals + Bear Spirit, and because there's no controversy over whether you can use it to boost e.g. animated skeletons. (Some people think that skeletons never count as "friendly" even if you control them and are therefore never eligible for Inspiring Leader THP.)



It's about the same amount of THP as a Heroism spell (5 THP, refreshing every round), which IME is not as strong as it sounds. It's never really worth 50 HP per cast.

Artificer turret IMO isn't strong per se, it's just cheap and effective.

This is my current mindset as well. There are a few nitch moments where the cannon burst would destroy the others but in general game play I think Shep druid is the winner.

Saying that I'll probably have more fun with the artillerist cannon because it is a more active style of play.

[Yakmala]

It is indeed very strong, especially with lower level parties.

I was actually thinking about a crazy Bear Barbarian / Artillerist build. Stick your tiny protector turret in your pocket or on your shoulder, rage and charge into battle. Resistant to everything but psychic and a refreshing source of temporary hit points. If you go Barb 3 /Artillerist X, you can eventually make yourself a Headband of Intellect to boost the shield strength (if you haven't already capped your Int) and Gauntlets/Belt for Strength and an Amulet of Health to simulate being a higher level Barbarian then you actually are. Eventually you get a second turret which, technically, should still work while you are raging.

[Chad.e.clark]

For my money, Inspiring leader and glamour bard are tied for first.

Glamour bard being a short rest replinished resource and offering movement as well is super appealing. And with the expanded spell list from UA, Aid is on the table as well, so all kinds of expanded HP buffers are on the table. And, fwiw, I do believe that RAW glamour bards can affect themselves with Mantle of Inspiration because 1) a creature can see itself and 2) Mantle of Inspiration does not specifically say you cannot affect yourself, unlike generic Bardic Inspiration's entry which specifies buffing another creature other than yourself.

[stoutstien]

For my money, Inspiring leader and glamour bard are tied for first.

Glamour bard being a short rest replinished resource and offering movement as well is super appealing. And with the expanded spell list from UA, Aid is on the table as well, so all kinds of expanded HP buffers are on the table. And, fwiw, I do believe that RAW glamour bards can affect themselves with Mantle of Inspiration because 1) a creature can see itself and 2) Mantle of Inspiration does not specifically say you cannot affect yourself, unlike generic Bardic Inspiration's entry which specifies buffing another creature other than yourself.

Should be noted that aid is an artificer spell as well. Also eligible for SSI. So giving a little prep time they could give out thp and aid to a large number of targets although they can't upcast aid this way.

I agree with you on mantle but I've seen it ruled otherwise. It's a minor Con but I think it was worth noting.

[BruceLeeroy]

The Artillerist cannon lasts for 10 minutes. With the THP refreshing every turn, you can easily prep it before an encounter and ensure everyone in the party has 8+int. 11 THP is a substantial amount, especially in the most commonly played levels. Then 5 THP a round for everyone in the group, better healing than a cleric can provide.

[stoutstien]

The Artillerist cannon lasts for 10 minutes. With the THP refreshing every turn, you can easily prep it before an encounter and ensure everyone in the party has 8+int. 11 THP is a substantial amount, especially in the most commonly played levels. Then 5 THP a round for everyone in the group, better healing than a cleric can provide.

The last an hour actually. It is extremely potent hence why it is in the same group as inspiring leader and shepherd totem.

Now THP are useful but they cannot replace healing. THP can recover someone who is unconscious and such.

The cannon is ths best source of THP for a 1st lv spell slot for amount and duration and duration of THP.

[Contrast]

While the glamour bard may not be as many straight up THP, the ability to freely move has been a total game changer for my party. Letting everyone disengage for free can help mitigate more damage than THP can ever provide.

Glamour bard also has the most synergy with Inspiring Leader though I have to say I actually had to ask my DM to let me swap out Inspiring Leader on my glamour bard as I was already running into problems where people were already capped out on THP.

Edit - Also with reference to ability to target yourself with Mantle of Inspiration, if you treat it as a spell the spell targetting rules say you could target yourself. You're a creature who can see yourself and can be seen by yourself (well assuming you're not blind or in the dark or something anyway). Compare to abilities such as regular bardic inspiration or trickery clerics Blessing of the Trickster which specifically call out that they can't be self targetted.