Int based sorcerer?

[CDPhenix]

Would a sorcerer that uses intelligence instead if charisma for spellcasting be balanced?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'd say it's strictly worse for a pure sorcerer (Charisma's a more useful attribute), worse for all the standard dips (Charisma is a great casting stat thanks to all the other Charisma casters it meshes with), and will make the wizard salivate uncontrollably (they already do it on occasion for the metamagic, changing their casting stat to Int makes it a no-brainer).

So it really more depends on who's asking. I wouldn't make a blanket rule out of it, but if a player wants to play a sorcerer using Int, I'd let 'em. It doesn't break anything.

[nickl_2000]

this runs into the same things you usually run into when changing the primary stat.

1) What do you do with Save Proficiencies?
2) Do you change the skills or keep the same skills?
3) Do you have other abilities that triggers off charisma or as used charisma mod times per X rest? Do those change as well as the spell casting?
4) What does it change for multiclassing?

-In general, you are switching to a less powerful stat with intelligence. So that a good sign.
-You can effectively multi-class with Artificer, AT Rogue, EK Fighter, and Wizard. As opposed to Paladin, Warlock, and Bard. This will likely not be a problem.


My suggestion, alter the saving throw proficiency to Intelligence/Constitution instead of Charisma/Constitution. Keep the skill choices the same as they are now. Modify any charisma mod abilities to intelligence and trigger off int. Most importantly though, don't allow multiclassing. This takes care of all multiclassing synergy issues.

[Slipperychicken]

Thirding the opinion that it's a nerf, but not a huge one.

It doesn't break the class by any means, but it could be a minor issue if a player is intent on abusing it for a multiclass build.

[Man_Over_Game]

Most importantly though, don't allow multiclassing. This takes care of all multiclassing synergy issues.

I've done a lot of work looking into changing primary attributes for stats, and while this is a safe solution, you definitely can allow multiclassing if you pay close attention to specific concerns.

Basically:
Limit any caster with Medium or better armor from dipping into Warlock or Sorcerer.

Don't allow Warlock dips for martials.

Be careful when changing Dex around, and only do so when the changes include a major drawback (for example, I allow Barbarians to use Dex instead of Str, as long as half of your levels are into Barbarian, and the only subclass you can take is Berserker. )

Determine the best multiclass combo before and after the change with the target class. If the After version is worse, you're fine.



That last note is important. Is Sorcerer + EK better than. Sorcerer + Paladin? I'd say No, as the EK doesn't have ways of expending spell slots through attacking like the Paladin does, and still has access to most of the melee-esc spells the Sorcerer gets without multiclassing.


The only other concern is maybe allowing the Wizard to use the Sorcerer's Metamagic, but the Sorcerer has access to most of the Wizard's best applicable spells in the first place, so there really isn't anything that becomes accessible by allowing Sorcerers to use Intelligence.



I will say, though, that Intelligence makes less sense for Sorcerers than Wisdom. Wisdom implies senses and self control, where Intelligence is all about mechanical learning, and which describes a Sorcerer better?

[stoutstien]

Would a sorcerer that uses intelligence instead if charisma for spellcasting be balanced?

Yes and I would allow them to use the spell point alternative system as well.

[nickl_2000]

I've done a lot of work looking into changing primary attributes for stats, and while this is a safe solution, you definitely can allow multiclassing if you pay close attention to specific concerns.


I went with the safe bet when I did it. Usually when a player is looking to change a casting stat they either have a specific character in mind where it makes more sense to use a different stat or they are trying to make a multi-class work that wasn't intended to work that way by the designer. Not allowing multiclassing is the safe answer in situations like this.


Personally I see the biggest issue is not with a Sorcerer/EK.
The bigger issues are:
Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Wizard X - You now have a wizard that heals almost (sure it's missing prayer of healing, but still) as well as any cleric out there
Shadow Sorcerer 1/AT X - Get Darkvision and shield in a race that doesn't have darkvision.

Are those better than a different multiclass? Maybe, maybe not, but the no-multiclassing is still safer. On the other hand, an int based shadow sorcerer 1/AT X would go pretty perfectly with the character I have planned for my next campaign :biggrin:

[Spiritchaser]

There’s a pretty nasty gish MC available for an int sorcerer with battlesmith artificer using shadowblade with battle ready... at least if you allow int attacks with the shadowblade, which... is definitely a weapon and... I think you would have to concede that the shadow blade is magical so... you likely would.

It’s arguably stronger in at least a few ways than what a CHA sorcerer can do with Hexblade/paladin but possibly not stronger overall.

I’m not saying it’s a non starter, just that it’s worth a good long hard think through. It’s definitely less of a problem without quickened melee cantrips so if you’re not using those this won’t be such a big deal.

[Teaguethebean]

Be careful when changing Dex around, and only do so when the changes include a major drawback (for example, I allow Barbarians to use Dex instead of Str, as long as half of your levels are into Barbarian, and the only subclass you can take is Berserker. )
My Rouge Berserker barbarian build would love this but it seems almost too good especially if you could pick up wild hunt shifter.

[Nagog]

I'd say it's strictly worse for a pure sorcerer (Charisma's a more useful attribute), worse for all the standard dips (Charisma is a great casting stat thanks to all the other Charisma casters it meshes with), and will make the wizard salivate uncontrollably (they already do it on occasion for the metamagic, changing their casting stat to Int makes it a no-brainer).

So it really more depends on who's asking. I wouldn't make a blanket rule out of it, but if a player wants to play a sorcerer using Int, I'd let 'em. It doesn't break anything.

Meh, as an avid Wizard Player, metamagic doesn't appeal much to me. I've seen it used, seen it do great things, but it's never been anything I'd sacrifice my wizard abilities for. The only thing that seems remotely interesting is Quickened Spell combined with Mind Spike to debuff their saving throws right before hitting them with a powerful save-or-suck spell, but even then it's not viable due to the common ruling of the bonus action must be taken after the action in that case (not saying it's RAW, just something I've seen happen more often that most houserulings), or if the rule about casting 2 spells in a round weren't limited to only if one is a cantrip didn't exist.

That said, I would be more interested in playing an Int-based Sorcerer for one of my character builds. Due to the buff/debuff lean in the Sorcerer spell list and the access to the Cleric list granted by the Divine bloodline, I've got a character concept of a Divine Sorcerer that's a microbiologist that uses different biotic agents to produce different effects. A RAW build would have their Int outclassed by Cha, which goes against the grain of the concept, while a switch to Wizard would lose out on the support lean and cleric list.

[Man_Over_Game]

My Rouge Berserker barbarian build would love this but it seems almost too good especially if you could pick up wild hunt shifter.

Rogues actually perform better with fewer attacks rather than more, since their Sneak Attack only applies once per turn.

Coincidentally, Berserker Barbarian's main feature is granting additional attacks.

Additionally, a big part of the benefit of the Berserker's bonus attack is being allowed to attack with a big weapon...which you can't if you want to use Sneak Attack. You're basically using TWF with the fighting style on a Rogue with a lot of extra steps.

Also, most Rogue Subclasses utilize your Bonus Action regularly, which cuts down on the incremental power growth through multiclassing.

The best multiclass pairing with Rogue/Barbarian would be to only get 2, 3, or 5 levels into Barbarian and then maxing Rogue...but you're forced into having half of your levels into Barbarian.


In the end, it gives a lot of versatility and front-line durability to Dex classes with little armor, but it isn't actually all that powerful. Which is exactly why I made it.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Meh, as an avid Wizard Player, metamagic doesn't appeal much to me. I've seen it used, seen it do great things, but it's never been anything I'd sacrifice my wizard abilities for. The only thing that seems remotely interesting is Quickened Spell combined with Mind Spike to debuff their saving throws right before hitting them with a powerful save-or-suck spell, but even then it's not viable due to the common ruling of the bonus action must be taken after the action in that case (not saying it's RAW, just something I've seen happen more often that most houserulings), or if the rule about casting 2 spells in a round weren't limited to only if one is a cantrip didn't exist.

That said, I would be more interested in playing an Int-based Sorcerer for one of my character builds. Due to the buff/debuff lean in the Sorcerer spell list and the access to the Cleric list granted by the Divine bloodline, I've got a character concept of a Divine Sorcerer that's a microbiologist that uses different biotic agents to produce different effects. A RAW build would have their Int outclassed by Cha, which goes against the grain of the concept, while a switch to Wizard would lose out on the support lean and cleric list.

I'm more worried about subtle. The sorcerer is partly hamstrung by not having a lot of room to pick up the sort of strong social or utility magic that can devastate or trivialize non-combat bits of a campaign, though it's still an exceptionally strong thing for them. Once a fluid spellbook enters the mix, a particularly clever player might find some bad exploits I'd rather not see.

[CDPhenix]

Shadow Sorcerer 1/AT X - Get Darkvision and shield in a race that doesn't have darkvision.

Question, what does AT mean? I've not seen this abbreviation before

[Galithar]

Question, what does AT mean? I've not seen this abbreviation before

Arcane Trickster Rogue

[Gignere]

Rogues actually perform better with fewer attacks rather than more, since their Sneak Attack only applies once per turn.

Coincidentally, Berserker Barbarian's main feature is granting additional attacks.

Additionally, a big part of the benefit of the Berserker's bonus attack is being allowed to attack with a big weapon...which you can't if you want to use Sneak Attack. You're basically using TWF with the fighting style on a Rogue with a lot of extra steps.

Also, most Rogue Subclasses utilize your Bonus Action regularly, which cuts down on the incremental power growth through multiclassing.

The best multiclass pairing with Rogue/Barbarian would be to only get 2, 3, or 5 levels into Barbarian and then maxing Rogue...but you're forced into having half of your levels into Barbarian.


In the end, it gives a lot of versatility and front-line durability to Dex classes with little armor, but it isn't actually all that powerful. Which is exactly why I made it.

I think you under appreciate what the berserker bonus action can allow a rogue to do. It’s one of the few, maybe even only bonus action attacks with no riders. It’s not a part of the attack action or spell or whatever. So you can sneak attack with bonus action. Then hold your main action for someone else’s turn. Therefore easily achieving 2 sneak attacks in a round especially with reckless attack.

[Galithar]

I think you under appreciate what the berserker bonus action can allow a rogue to do. It’s one of the few, maybe even only bonus action attacks with no riders. It’s not a part of the attack action or spell or whatever. So you can sneak attack with bonus action. Then hold your main action for someone else’s turn. Therefore easily achieving 2 sneak attacks in a round especially with reckless attack.

With MOGs system you have to have a minimum of half your levels in Barbarian though. This means even if you do use the bonus action to proc sneak attack you'll barely be doing more damage then a single classed rogue that is only making 1 sneak attack a round. So I don't think he's under valuing it because his system already keeps it in check.

[Man_Over_Game]

With MOGs system you have to have a minimum of half your levels in Barbarian though. This means even if you do use the bonus action to proc sneak attack you'll barely be doing more damage then a single classed rogue that is only making 1 sneak attack a round. So I don't think he's under valuing it because his system already keeps it in check.


Thanks for the assist. You're right. Not having that can also allow Monks to dip for a cheap Rage and Unarmored Defense that overpowers Monks who don't do that.

I made sure to meticulously check every attribute change and their multiclass potential when I made them, and wrote them all down.

Interestingly enough, I couldn't find a reason to not allow Shepherd Druids to use Charisma, and Lore Bards to use Intelligence, with no other caveats.

Most of other reasonable changes (Strength Monk, Intelligent Cleric, Wisdom Sorcerer, etc.) have some valid reason to have a restriction placed upon them, usually because of low level dip features (Rage, Shield, proficiencies, etc.).

The trick is not to prevent players from becoming powerful, but remembering that you don't want them to be powerful *easily*.

[Chronos]

Switching the casting stat from Cha to Int was one of the things I did when designing a homebrew psion as a sorcerer subclass (see signature). Since sorcs get their subclass at level 1, there's room for changing up things like that.

As for multiclassing, it makes it easier to multiclass with wizard, but then, sorcerer already has the longest list of things it multiclasses well with (pretty much any combination of Cha-based classes is a strong multiclass). Adding one strong multiclass but removing three is hardly unbalanced.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll go ahead and be a contrarian and suggest dumping the sorcerer altogether. :smallbiggrin:

INT based Wizard, INT based Warlock, no Sorcerer, and :smallbiggrin:
Cha Based Paladin.

Right, I'll get my coat and show myself out. :smallcool:

[Smoothjedi]

Rogues actually perform better with fewer attacks rather than more, since their Sneak Attack only applies once per turn.

This makes me cringe a little bit. Rogues absolutely perform better with more attacks, which is why it's tough to get a second one. Sure if your first attack successfully hits, your second one will feel lackluster. However, if your first one misses, you're going to be ecstatic to have another try.

[Chronos]

And even if both hit, one big attack plus one mediocre one is better than just one big attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

This makes me cringe a little bit. Rogues absolutely perform better with more attacks, which is why it's tough to get a second one. Sure if your first attack successfully hits, your second one will feel lackluster. However, if your first one misses, you're going to be ecstatic to have another try.

Well, obviously more is better, but the investment for that 'more' may not be worth it for the gain. Investing 5 levels into Fighter might not be worth the levels you could have pumped into more Rogue...especially when you could just hold a throwing knife for an extra attempt with a BA for when you miss.

Assuming a 66% hit chance, you'll go up to an 88% chance of landing a Sneak Attack with a second turn, or roughly a 33% total gain for Sneak Attack. Thing is, Sneak Attack gains about 3.5 every two levels. 5 levels is about 9 damage for Sneak Attack.

Unless you're past level 10, investing 5 levels into Fighter gets you less than if you just stuck it out with Sneak Attack.

[RogueJK]

I will say, though, that Intelligence makes less sense for Sorcerers than Wisdom. Wisdom implies senses and self control, where Intelligence is all about mechanical learning, and which describes a Sorcerer better?

D&D 3.5E and Pathfinder (~3.75E) both had WIS-based Sorcerer-style spontaneous casters with access to the Cleric spell list. Basically the precursor to 5E's Divine Soul Sorcerer.