Can Diplomacy/Intimidate skills be used to affect the PCs?

[An Enemy Spy]

The players are in control of how their character's behave provided they aren't under magical influence, so how does that work with NPCs who have high bonuses in conversational skills like Diplomacy and Intimidate. If I roll a nat 20 on the enemy's Intimidate check, can I tell the players that their characters are now afraid of him, or that they found the dragon's logic to be quite persuasive if it gets a high Diplomacy roll? Or is that being too controlling of the PC's actions?

[awa]

if i recall correctly in third edition assuming just the skill and no feats, magic etc. Intimidate would give them the shaken condition but could not actually make them do anything. Diplomacy would do nothing the pcs dont want it to.

[False God]

Yes, theay can, but they rely on your players role-playing honestly


Players should be playing in good faith and if an NPC rolls a check against them like Intimidate, and the player rolls an opposed check that is worse by 5/10/15/X the player should actively role-play that degree of being intimidated.

Yeah I mean maybe Joe doesn't find Tiny Tim there very intimidating, but in the game world Tiny Tim's 35 Intimidate vs Joes PCs opposed 10 Intimidate means Joes PC is pretty darn intimidated, and Joe ought to role-play as his PC.

[Duke of Urrel]

Let's consider Diplomacy skill. According to the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm):


You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs.

As I interpret the SRD and the rulebooks, Diplomacy skill can be used to deceive only NPCs, not PCs. From this interpretation, it follows that as a PC, you cannot be influenced by Diplomacy skill. You can use Diplomacy skill to influence only NPCs, not other PCs, and NPCs can use Diplomacy skill to deceive only other NPCs, not you or any other PC.

Now let's consider Intimidate skill. According to the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm):


You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

Since this text references the Diplomacy rules, I interpret it to mean that you cannot use Intimidate skill in the manner described above to influence PCs, only NPCs.

However, from this it does not follow that Intimidate skill can never have an effect on a PC.


Demoralize Opponent
You can also use Intimidate skill to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in mêlée combat and that can see you.

I think PCs can be affected in this manner just like NPCs.

The use of Intimidate skill to initiate a duel of wills may also affect PCs just as it affects NPCs. This use of Intimidate skill is described in detail in the Tome of Battle and in the Rules Compendium.

When I'm the dungeon master, I have a special house rule. I allow NPCs to influence PCs with Intimidate skill in one other way. When a PC makes a Sense Motive check to assess an opponent (which is discussed in Complete Adventurer and in the Rules Compendium), I allow an NPC to make an Intimidate check in place of a Bluff check as an opposing check. I think it's appropriate for an NPC with strong Intimidate skill to seem to be a bigger challenge to a PC than they really are.

[malloc]

I try to roleplay the relevant character's abilities and have the players roll/react to that. If an NPC is a good liar, I'll lie well. If they aren't, I'll lie poorly. Then it is up to the players to roll their decisions against me (sense motive, save vs fear, etc). Give the players power over their own destiny when it comes to being impacted--active defense makes the players feel more like they have agency.

[Clementx]

Applying shaken or frightened as conditions to the PCs, possibly beyond the basic uses of Intimidate, could be called for to make players feel a mechanical effect if they are constantly laughing and not taking the threat of a NPC. Or a constant frightening presence ability if this is an Dark Lord type.

But first, don't tell the players the NPC rolled well. Tell them the NPC looks capable of murdering them all or ruining their lives. Getting your players to feel an emotion is beyond an internet forum about dice games, but you should know what makes your players worried about failure and consequences. You have to disabuse them of the notion that all conflicts are save because they are appropriate CR for their level. Failing all else, warn them this represents a dangerous situation (even if it isnt).

Diplomacy can be used as a guide to how you describe a situation or NPC. "He gives you a clear description of the heist, and it covers all the bases and concerns. Easy money, guaranteed." Once they start planning that heist, start surprising them with all the problems and half lies. "I guess it was too good to be true. Bad Sense Motive on your character's part."

[Troacctid]

What you could do is call for an opposed Diplomacy check to negotiate.

In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

[MR_Anderson]

What you could do is call for an opposed Diplomacy check to negotiate.

I had a player this weekend attempt a Diplomacy check to calm another player who they just ran into and attacked by accident.

I had the attacked player roll an opposed Sense Motive, and I explained what his gut was telling him.

Then I explained to all the players that Diplomacy doesn’t technically effect PC’s attitudes and they could play it out however they liked.

Ultimately, they roll-played out what the rolls were to the benefit of the new member joining the party.

Toss the rolls in your players laps and let them know what a typical npc would have done, and let them choose how they want to do it.

A good DM’s power of suggestion should carry better than 20th level wizard suggestion spell.

[Psyren]

You can demoralize and bluff PCs, both of which they have a chance to resist. What you cannot do is roll some dice and then tell them "you feel friendly/helpful towards this guy"; that's not how it works at all.