Tips, Tricks and Thoughts for Burgeoning Necromancers

[Cikomyr]

For the record: "Necromancer" in this case covers all class that want to use Animate Dead as one of their main feature. It's not restricted to the Wizard Necromancer subclass.

So I started my first Necromancer character)(Priest of Death Domain), and I was thinking of important things to remind myself to play smart with my new toys.

So here's a list of tips, tricks and thoughts I came up with, and I invite everyone to chip in. Your idea can be class specific or universal to the entire Necromancer experience. If it's specific, just mention the class in your tip.


- the Mending Cantrip can prove useful to sew back destroyed skeletons or zombies that were destroyed by purely physical means. As long as a cadaver wasn't burned or acided, nothing says you can't lug around the spare parts and build back your minions to re-animate them.

- Skeletons and Zombies are somewhat crap in combat, sure. Not Gunna lie to you about it, their strength is in taking room on the battlefield and overwhelming with numbers. However, nothing says you can't have them take the Help Action to give advantage to your dedicated melee warriors party members who do know how to kick it in 2nd gear.

- Zombies and Skeletons will follow your instructions. However, nothing says you cannot give the instruction of "follow the orders of my allies" so your teammates can coordinate with them.

- Playing dress up with your minions might prove useful. Especially Skeletons, whose fluff expressly spell out that they can use weapon and armor. And siege weaponry. But zombies can still be put in armor and will be hardy folks

- if you have a Paladin in your party, remember that if your zombies stick around him, they can use his Aura to have a substantial bonus to their constitution saving throw to avoid being destroyed.

- if you have the Mending cantrip, there's no problem in executing your undead minions before the 24 hours period is up if you no longer have enough spell slots to maintain your control. Just fix the body or the bones before you have the spell slot luxury to re-animate them. Or if you don't mind, send them on a suicide mission against known enemy positions.

- Skeletons can make for rather effective source of soldering labor. They can dig trenches, chop lumber, etc.. That requires little independant though, and they will do it tirelessly and without ever stopping, outpacing the work of the same number of humans.

- sufficient number of Skeletons can pull wagons, chariots and carts pretty much non-stop without the need of feeding or ever tiring. You can have a much, much faster overland journey with them literally pulling your weight, and the weight of your party members.

- sure, a Skeleton on watch can't alert you or scream, because they can't say ****. Give them an alarm bell to ring loudly if there are intruders.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Get the actor feat.

Put strings on your undead.

Pretend you're a puppet master

????

Profit.

Edit: Handy for going in towns

[MaxWilson]

Good point about Mending!

[Witty Username]

Just Fireball :smallamused:
But in seriousness, don't forget to use spells other than animate dead, especially stinking cloud and cloudkill type effects that your hordes of darkness will be immune to.
Have chat with DM on what general commands can be. For example, in my groups tables, "hit it until it dies" is a fair command so we only need attack commands to switch targets. The early chat can make things smoother during play.
Invest in multiple dice and/or outsource your minions to other players for the sake of keeping play move quickly.
Make sure you character has access to a supply of bodies, either by being an undertaker or having a black market deal. Killing things to resupply your army will get hairy fast.

[JackPhoenix]

- the Mending Cantrip can prove useful to sew back destroyed skeletons or zombies that were destroyed by purely physical means. As long as a cadaver wasn't burned or acided, nothing says you can't lug around the spare parts and build back your minions to re-animate them.


- if you have the Mending cantrip, there's no problem in executing your undead minions before the 24 hours period is up if you no longer have enough spell slots to maintain your control. Just fix the body or the bones before you have the spell slot luxury to re-animate them. Or if you don't mind, send them on a suicide mission against known enemy positions.

Unfortunately, you can't reanimate destroyed undead. Animate Dead has to target pile of bones or a corpse of a humanoid. Remains of skeletons and zombies are bones or corpses of undead.


- Playing dress up with your minions might prove useful. Especially Skeletons, whose fluff expressly spell out that they can use weapon and armor. And siege weaponry. But zombies can still be put in armor and will be hardy folks

They can use them, however, it's up to the GM to decide if they are proficient in anything beyond shortswords and shortbows.


Make sure you character has access to a supply of bodies, either by being an undertaker or having a black market deal. Killing things to resupply your army will get hairy fast.

You're an adventurer. Killing things is in your job description.

[Cikomyr]

Unfortunately, you can't reanimate destroyed undead. Animate Dead has to target pile of bones or a corpse of a humanoid. Remains of skeletons and zombies are bones or corpses of undead.

That's a distinction without a difference, in my opinion.

Does a destroyed animated skeleton reverts to being the remains or a humanoid? I think yes. What's the difference between the two, really?

[JackPhoenix]

That's a distinction without a difference, in my opinion.

Does a destroyed animated skeleton reverts to being the remains or a humanoid? I think yes. What's the difference between the two, really?

Creature type, which is all the difference that matters. Destroying a skeleton doesn't change the creature type it had, just like killing a living creature doesn't change what creature type it had before.

Just like you can't use resurrection magic (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/07/if-a-pc-becomes-undead-can-resurrection-work-if-the-undead-pc-is-killed/) (outside True Resurrection) to bring someone who was turned into undead back to life (and using Revivify on someone who was turned into a zombie will revive the creature as zombie (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/11/can-i-revify-a-killed-zombie/), not the person it was originally), Animate Dead doesn't work on anything that wasn't humanoid prior its dead.

[Witty Username]

You're an adventurer. Killing things is in your job description.
That is exactly the kind of thinking that results in the dark sun setting, especially if corpses can't be reused.
Also, some players refuse to kill people even when it would be more convenient than talking to them.
Also, adventurers kill monsters, not humanoids.
Again, chat with DM.

[PhantomSoul]

Also, adventurers kill monsters, not humanoids.

Goblins either thank you for supporting their petition to not be killed or are about to attack you for dehumanoidifying them.

[Witty Username]

I am actually getting a goblin PC ready for an upcoming game, not a necromancer though, evoker, cause sometimes you just have to blow stuff up.

[JackPhoenix]

That is exactly the kind of thinking that results in the dark sun setting, especially if corpses can't be reused.

Corpses are renewable resource. In fact, it is the only resource Dark Sun has plenty of. Well, corpses and sand.


Also, adventurers kill monsters, not humanoids.

You mean monsters like kobolds, goblins, orcs, gnomes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo), drow, various bandits, cultists and so on?

[Theaitetos]

Unfortunately, you can't reanimate destroyed undead. Animate Dead has to target pile of bones or a corpse of a humanoid. Remains of skeletons and zombies are bones or corpses of undead.

I wouldn't subscribe to your interpretation of the rules so fast. There are a few things to add here, first of all those tweets by Jeremy Crawford:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/596185201417461760


Undead minions can receive temporary hp and can spend HD during a short rest. And animate dead can bring them back!


https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/597077875049635840


A non-undead corpse isn't considered a creature. It's effectively an object.


Then the spell itself:



This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature's game statistics).

So depending on your reading of this, you might be right on the Zombies, but you're definitely not right on the Skeletons. Only the corpse has to be of a m/s humanoid, not the pile of bones. So dead skeletons can be animated again if there's a pile of bones left.



Some tips & tricks:

1) Mold Earth (cantrip) [druid, sorcerer, wizard] makes excavating graves a quick & easy task to get some corpses/bones.

2) Firebolt (cantrip) [artificer, sorcerer, wizard] can target objects [RAW: corpses / bones are objects] so you can singe the flesh from the bones; but since that might take a while, Create Bonfire is a faster method.

3) Prestidigitation (cantrip) [arcane casters] can clean objects [again: corpses / bones are objects RAW] so cleaning the rotten flesh from the desired bones does work. This should work quickly, as a medium corpse is around 1 cubic foot, so it takes only 1 or 2 actions to instantly clean the bones.

4) An Unseen Servant (ritual) can be told to carve the flesh from the bones.

5) Your Familiar (ritual) [wizard, druid, chainlock] should have little problem picking the flesh from the bones either – even natural for Rats & Ravens.

6) A "pile of bones" is a very vague description [and since the spell also says that it can target the corpse of a small creature], so you might be able to create few/several bone piles out of the bones of 1 medium creature.

7) The bones don't have to be from humanoids, so you can always ask your local butchers or hunters for any animal remains.

8) Beast Sense (ritual) [ranger, druid] can allow you to find corpses, if your DM allows certain animals to be good at that; or train your own pet dog to find remains via smell.

9) Magic Mouth (ritual) [artificer, bard, wizard] is a funny spell that allows you to add a 25 words (or less) message to an object, for example a skull before you animate it or a mask, and suddenly your skeletons can speak! Maybe you can use it to fool people into thinking it's not a normal skeleton – "I am Groot!"

10) Ceremony (ritual) [cleric, paladin, druid] might allow you to restore an undead to the original creature's alignment. However, all the spells that supposedly Detect/Protect from Good and Evil are no longer linked to alignments in 5E, but creature types, so restoring a zombie to a lawful good alignment has no real effect.

11) Yet Nystul's Magic Aura [wizard] can change the detected creature type, which affects spells & abilities.

12) Dragon's Breath [sorcerer, wizard] is a powerful attack to give individual undead; choosing a Poison breath makes sure no other undead are damaged when attacking.

13) Danse Macabre [warlock, wizard] transforms small/medium corpses (no creature type requirements!) into skeletons or zombies. If you choose skeletons, you can later use Animate Dead on their piles of bones.

14) A Ring of Regeneration (attunement) or the Regenerate spell [bard, cleric, druid] restore missing body parts to a creature over the course of 1d6+1 days [ring] or 2 minutes [spell]. So unless lethal damage is inflicted, it's possible to continuously "harvest" body parts from creatures, and thereby always have plenty of "raw material" for animation available; a good "medic" might be able to harvest 60 arms and legs per hour from a "donor" via Regenerate, and if your donor's name is Jango Fett you soon have your own army of Bone Troopers!

[JackPhoenix]

I wouldn't subscribe to your interpretation of the rules so fast. There are a few things to add here, first of all those tweets by Jeremy Crawford:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/596185201417461760

Undead minions can receive temporary hp and can spend HD during a short rest. And animate dead can bring them back!

He's wrong on that one, due to targetting requirements of Animate Dead.


https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/597077875049635840
A non-undead corpse isn't considered a creature. It's effectively an object.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand. You don't target creatures with Animate Dead, but objects. Those objects, however, must be remains of creatures, and those creatures had to have certain creature type before they died. Animate Dead doesn't work when you try to cast it on a living human, or a dead horse, or a wooden doll shaped like a corpse.


So depending on your reading of this, you might be right on the Zombies, but you're definitely not right on the Skeletons. Only the corpse has to be of a m/s humanoid, not the pile of bones. So dead skeletons can be animated again if there's a pile of bones left.

It's a single sentence. Pile of bones (or a corpse) of a Medium or Small humanoid. The size and creature type requirement applies to both the pile of bones and the corpse. Now, if it was written the other way.... A corpse of a medium or small humanoid or a pile of bones.... you would be right, but that's not the case.

[Cikomyr]

He's wrong on that one, due to targetting requirements of Animate Dead.



Irrelevant to the matter at hand. You don't target creatures with Animate Dead, but objects. Those objects, however, must be remains of creatures, and those creatures had to have certain creature type before they died. Animate Dead doesn't work when you try to cast it on a living human, or a dead horse, or a wooden doll shaped like a corpse.



It's a single sentence. Pile of bones (or a corpse) of a Medium or Small humanoid. The size and creature type requirement applies to both the pile of bones and the corpse. Now, if it was written the other way.... A corpse of a medium or small humanoid or a pile of bones.... you would be right, but that's not the case.

Let use our judgement here, mkay? Is it really that bad if you can reanimate your skeletons or zombies, after taking time to repair them, each taking an individual casting of Animate Dead?

No. It's not.

[Witty Username]

Quick note that might come up, skeletons are immune to exhaustion but zombies are not, which may complicate travel and make some weird stuff apply. I find it dumb but this is a thing. Unless errata.

[Theaitetos]

He's wrong on that one, due to targetting requirements of Animate Dead.

If you say so… :smallconfused:



It's a single sentence. Pile of bones (or a corpse) of a Medium or Small humanoid. The size and creature type requirement applies to both the pile of bones and the corpse. Now, if it was written the other way.... A corpse of a medium or small humanoid or a pile of bones.... you would be right, but that's not the case.

No, you don't read it right. Here's a reminder:


Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

Now, there are 2 ways of reading this sentence:
Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.
Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.


In the 1st way of reading it, the "medium or small humanoid" requirement only affects "a corpse".
In the 2nd way of reading it, the "medium or small humanoid" requirement affects both "a pile of bones" and "a corpse".

You are reading it in the 2nd way, which is wrong when looking at English grammar. To clarify grammar concerning conjunctions like "OR", one can leave out the other part of the sentence and it still has to make sense and be grammatically correct. So let's leave the "corpse" part out of the sentence:


Choose a pile of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

Now we see the grammatical awkwardness. And there's a huge logical problem: Humanoids don't contain piles of bones. They contain "bones", yes, but not "piles of bones". Remember, the "of a Medium or Small humanoid" part can NOT reference the "bones" alone, it has to reference the entire "a pile of bones" due to the OR part dividing the "pile of bones" from the "corpse" in our 2nd reading. You cannot have it both ways of the humanoid requirement referencing "a pile of bones" when OR (+corpse) is present and simultaneously only referencing "bones" when the OR (+corpse) is omitted.

In order for the "of a Medium or Small humanoid" to be grammatically referencing only the "bones" part instead of the "pile of bones" part, the sentence needs to be changed in some way, for example:


Choose a pile made up of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.


Choose a pile of the bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.


Choose a pile of bones from a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

In contrast, the 1st reading is grammatically sound and perfectly valid when omitting the OR (+corpse) part:


Choose a pile of bones within range.

So from a grammar point of view, the only valid way of reading it is #1, i.e. the "of a Medium or Small humanoid" is a requirement of the corpse, not the pile of bones.

[MaxWilson]

Unfortunately, you can't reanimate destroyed undead. Animate Dead has to target pile of bones or a corpse of a humanoid. Remains of skeletons and zombies are bones or corpses of undead.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? A pile of bones from an undead is a pile of bones, isn't it?


They can use them, however, it's up to the GM to decide if they are proficient in anything beyond shortswords and shortbows.

It's up to the DM to decide if they are proficient in shortswords and shortbows too. As the spell description says explicitly, "The target becomes a Skeleton if you chose bones or a Zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature's game statistics)." If you're creating zombies from slain orcs they might be be proficient in greataxes and javelins but not shortswords and shortbows.


14) A Ring of Regeneration (attunement) or the Regenerate spell [bard, cleric, druid] restore missing body parts to a creature over the course of 1d6+1 days [ring] or 2 minutes [spell]. So unless lethal damage is inflicted, it's possible to continuously "harvest" body parts from creatures, and thereby always have plenty of "raw material" for animation available; a good "medic" might be able to harvest 60 arms and legs per hour from a "donor" via Regenerate, and if your donor's name is Jango Fett you soon have your own army of Bone Troopers!

Thank you ever so much for that mental picture.

That's as bad as the part of Rising From the Last War where it says the Daughters of Sora Kell feed their people on troll sausages. Only a psychopath would be willing to eat one.


It's a single sentence. Pile of bones (or a corpse) of a Medium or Small humanoid. The size and creature type requirement applies to both the pile of bones and the corpse. Now, if it was written the other way.... A corpse of a medium or small humanoid or a pile of bones.... you would be right, but that's not the case.

Your reading is clearly wrong because it's ungrammatical. If your reading were intended it would have to say "pile of bones from or the corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid."

I agree with post #16.

[Cikomyr]

Quick note that might come up, skeletons are immune to exhaustion but zombies are not, which may complicate travel and make some weird stuff apply. I find it dumb but this it a thing. Unless errata.

... That is stupid


The Grammatical Argument

Guys, you aren't going to end up with anyone deciding that the other is genuinely wrong. When we are down to arguing grammars like SCOTUS does the constitution, I feel we moved away from sound rule interpretation. Look at the impact to the gameplay, not the letter of the goddamn rule.

[Theaitetos]

Guys, you aren't going to end up with anyone deciding that the other is genuinely wrong. When we are down to arguing grammars like SCOTUS does the constitution, I feel we moved away from sound rule interpretation. Look at the impact to the gameplay, not the letter of the goddamn rule.

Look, this isn't about grammar, it's about someone not reading properly. How else are you gonna explain the rule to someone who misread due to a grammatical error?

And no, when asked "Do you like sweet donuts or girls with big boobs?", it's not a question about you liking sweet donuts with big boobs. No SCOTUS needed.

[Cikomyr]

Look, this isn't about grammar, it's about someone not reading properly. How else are you gonna explain the rule to someone who misread due to a grammatical error?

By pointing out that re-raising fallen skeletons and zombies, each costing a spell slot, has no actual impact on the gameplay compared to raising fallen foes or skeletons lingering on the ground of the dungeon.

That either way, the stats will remain the same. The cost is the same. The gameplay impact is the same. So who actually gives a **** about whether or not the rules actually allow it? It's flavour, fun flavour, and unless someone can point out an actual gameplay impact its not worth the saliva of arguing either way to your DM.

In my case, it's mostly RP reasons because I like corpses that I embalmed myself. I could just use fresh cadavers or Graves, but I like the idea of hygienic Undeads.

[Witty Username]

... That is stupid
Thanks for that catch, I don't know how I did that, I will blame my phone.


So, assuming skeletons can use martial weapons(their stat block uses a shortsword so maybe) investment in rapiers, and either heavy crossbows for damage or long bows for range will be worth it. Medium armor may be worth it too(armor scraps correlates to chain shirts).
I would personally rule the corpse is proficient in what they could use in life so get warrior bodies.
P.S. stat boosting magic items could work as well, like gauntlets of ogre power. What the heck does a headband of intellect do to a zombie?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

5e uses simple English, if there's one thing I know about simple English, it's that it isn't always grammatically correct.

Trying to say the designers are wrong, based on grammar, is reaching way, waaay, waaaaaay to far to try to be right. Lol.

[Greywander]

Now we see the grammatical awkwardness. And there's a huge logical problem: Humanoids don't contain piles of bones. They contain "bones", yes, but not "piles of bones".
But couldn't it just as easily be read as:

Choose a pile of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.
It makes sense to me that the restrictions for creating zombies and skeletons would be the same, with the only difference being whether it is a corpse or pile of bones.

[diplomancer]

But couldn't it just as easily be read as:

It makes sense to me that the restrictions for creating zombies and skeletons would be the same, with the only difference being whether it is a corpse or pile of bones.

The whole point of the "humanoid" reference is to have the product of the spell be the "regular" zombie or skeleton, and not, say, a warhorse skeleton or an ogre zombie. Incidentally, that is why the pile of bones is also supposed to have belonged to a humanoid. You can't animate a pile of bones that used to belong to a warhorse and get a warhorse skeleton out of it. It would be more precise to say "a pile of bones or the corpse of a creature that used to be a humanoid", as corpses and piles of bones do not have a creature type, but it would be overly verbose and, frankly, unnecessary.

Considering that, once you animate a valid target (a corpse or a pile of bones that used to be a humanoid), even if your undead minion dies, it still is a valid target (since, at some point in time, it used to be a humanoid).

[Cikomyr]

Thanks for that catch, I don't know how I did that, I will blame my phone.


.. What? No, I was criticizing the rule and agreeing with you, not correcting your grammatically.

The bolded is was merely for emphasis. Dude, I am here for necromancy tips, not actual evil behavior like grammar Nazism.

[VonKaiserstein]

The real issue with the grammatical argument is that you end up losing the requirement that a pile of bones needs to come from a medium or small creature. So now, any pile of bones will do- so you open the door to a necromancer bringing along some chickens, and raising the leftover chicken bones from dinner last night, or a bag of fish skeletons, or even owl pellets, which are a pile of mouse or rodent bones. And these things are supposed to make a medium skeleton... grammar really is no substitute for logic, especially not with such an imprecise language as English.

For that matter, the pile of bones doesn't need to be dead, grammatically speaking, now does it? Inside every person is a skeleton, trying to get out.

[Witty Username]

.. What? No, I was criticizing the rule and agreeing with you, not correcting your grammatically.

The bolded is was merely for emphasis. Dude, I am here for necromancy tips, not actual evil behavior like grammar Nazism.

Oh, sorry then.

[MaxWilson]

The real issue with the grammatical argument is that you end up losing the requirement that a pile of bones needs to come from a medium or small creature. So now, any pile of bones will do- so you open the door to a necromancer bringing along some chickens, and raising the leftover chicken bones from dinner last night, or a bag of fish skeletons, or even owl pellets, which are a pile of mouse or rodent bones. And these things are supposed to make a medium skeleton... grammar really is no substitute for logic, especially not with such an imprecise language as English.

No they aren't. They're supposed to make whatever kind of skeleton the DM says you get.

This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature's game statistics).

If you reanimate chicken bones, don't be surprised if you get a skeleton chicken.

[Theaitetos]

But couldn't it just as easily be read as:


Choose a pile of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.


No it can't, for the two reasons mentioned: The second "of" needs to be a "from" (or some other change), and – more important – it doesn't fit with the sentence as the "or" is dividing the sentence between "a pile of bones" and "a corpse": If the "a Medium or Small humanoid" just references the bones, then you would have to pick either "a pile of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid" or "a pile of a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid" and the latter is just plain wrong and nonsensical.

Let's just do it the math way:


Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

Choose [a pile of bones] or [a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid].
Choose [a pile of bones] or [a corpse] of a Medium or Small humanoid.
Choose a pile of [bones] or [a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid].
Choose a pile of [bones] or [a corpse] of a Medium or Small humanoid.


1 is a valid sentence OR statement.
2 is an invalid OR statement, as a humanoid does not contain [a pile of bones] & grammar demands a "from".
3 is an invalid OR statement, as there is no "a pile of a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid" in reality or grammar.
4 is an invalid OR statement, as there is no "a pile of a corpse" in reality or grammar.

I blame early school grammar for the confusion; for example, a majority of English native-speakers still believe that it's against some rule to start a sentence with a conjunction. But you actually can. And no, that's not illegal! :smallwink:

MaxWilson already said it: If the "Medium or Small humanoid" requirement was supposed to be a part of the "a pile of bones" too, then the sentence would have to be written like this:


Choose a pile of bones from or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

Why? Because only then would it make sense when you switch the two parts around:


Choose a corpse of or a pile of bones a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

See how that is wrong? And even if the of remains right before "a Medium", then all you did was bring on bad grammar (2 "of"s) and shift the problem to "a corpse":


Choose a corpse or a pile of bones of a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

Now you could choose any corpse! So no, there's only one way to write & switch it properly:


Choose a corpse of or a pile of bones from a Medium or Small humanoid within range.

See how that is right?