[DSP] Twin Energy Current & Solicit Psicrystal

[phlidwsn]

I am building my first blaster Wilder and I wanted to get a sanity-check on the following combo:

Round 1: Manifest Twin (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Twin_Power) Energy Current (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Energy_Current)
Round 2: Full action to maintain Energy Current #1, and Swift to manifest Solicit Psicrystal (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Solicit_Psicrystal) and allow Psicrystal to concentrate to maintain Energy Current #2

Does this look like it holds together, or am I missing something?

If it works, I'm thinking of pairing it with the Duality (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Duality) upgrade to Twin Power to make up for the -3 to the DC for using Twin Power vs just full-augmenting for damage.

[Kris Moonhand]

That should work, though you might be able to simply concentrate on the twinned power with only a single action, depending on your interpretation of the wording.

Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can twin a power. Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the area or target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same location or target. Any variables in the power (such as duration, number of targets, and so on) are the same for both of the resulting powers. The target experiences all the effects of both powers individually and receives a saving throw (if applicable) for each. In some cases, such as a twinned psionic charm, failing both saving throws results in redundant effects (although, in this example, any ally of the target would have to succeed on two dispel attempts to free the target from the charm effect).
Emphasis mine. It seems like it's saying that it only acts like two powers, not that it is two powers. It's a bit unclear...

[StSword]

Maybe you're DM will let it slide, but there's wording for solicit psicrystal that is problematic here.

Solicit Psicrystal gives the psicrystal a "single power you have manifested and are concentrating on."

The example you gave you aren't concentrating on Energy Current 2.

[upho]

That should work, though you might be able to simply concentrate on the twinned power with only a single action, depending on your interpretation of the wording.I think it's very clear there's only one single manifestation of energy current to concentrate on, even though that single manifested power happens to produce effects as if you were simultaneously manifesting two powers with the same targets.

Or to put it in other words, if you manifest a twinned power with an instantaneous effect you wouldn't need to spend twice the normal actions. Nothing in the relevant RAW says or indicates this wouldn't apply also to concentrating on a twinned power, and instead suddenly be treated as if you actually were manifesting two separate instances of the power. And of course, if you lose your concentration, both effects end. Any other interpretation would also be weirdly inconsistent and go against the "get (almost) the effects of two manifestations for the action cost of one"-thing which is the main point of Twin Power.


Emphasis mine. It seems like it's saying that it only acts like two powers, not that it is two powers.Yep, and it only acts like two powers when it comes to the effects, not any other aspects like duration.


Maybe you're DM will let it slide, but there's wording for solicit psicrystal that is problematic here.

Solicit Psicrystal gives the psicrystal a "single power you have manifested and are concentrating on."

The example you gave you aren't concentrating on Energy Current 2.But there is no "Energy Current 2", there is only one single energy current being manifested. That this single manifestation of energy current happens take effect twice when used with Twin Power is a different and in this regard unrelated matter.


If it works, I'm thinking of pairing it with the Duality (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Duality) upgrade to Twin Power to make up for the -3 to the DC for using Twin Power vs just full-augmenting for damage.That seems like a good idea. And considering this is a late level combo, I'd also pump PR/SR penetration as far as it goes.

[phlidwsn]

That seems like a good idea. And considering this is a late level combo, I'd also pump PR/SR penetration as far as it goes.

Yeah, this combo is targeting level 16ish, early and mid I would use Empower Power instead of Twin, and swap Empower for Twin via Reformation later on.

I had not considered PR yet. How likely is it I'd need more than the boost from Wild Surge? (+5@16th)

[Kris Moonhand]

Well said, Upho. That cleared it up for me, at least.

[upho]

I had not considered PR yet. How likely is it I'd need more than the boost from Wild Surge? (+5@16th)It seems my communication skills aren't sufficient to give a brief yet meaningful answer to that. So I'll try giving a longer answer instead, and hope you'll forgive me for dumping a pile of ramblings based on math with speculative numbers on your thread:

While your need for PR penetration boosts is of course highly dependent on the kinds of enemies you're most likely to fight at this level in your particular game, here are some useful probabilities (based on the statistics found in this nifty compilation (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3) of more than 3,000 published creatures):

75% of the CR 16 creatures, and 81% of the CR 19 ones (the typical challenging/important foes which really matter) you're likely to face at 16th, have SR. A very large majority of the CR 16 ones have SR 27, and a very large majority of the CR 19 ones SR 30, since monster SR values equal CR +11 practically per default. So using wild surge to manifest an effective ML 21 energy current and no other penetration boosts, you'd have a 75% chance to overcome the SR 27 which about three out of four CR 16 foes will likely have, and you'd have a 60% chance to overcome the SR 30 which about four out of five CR 19 foes will likely have. Importantly, note also that unlike saves, each time you manifest a twinned power which P/SR protects against, per RAW you only make a single ML check to overcome each targeted creature's P/SR, not one check for each of the two instances of the effects (since those effects originate from the same manifestation of the power).

The average Fort and Ref save bonuses of CR 16 creatures are +16.3 and +12.3 respectively, and those of CR 19 creatures +19.5 and +14.5. Excluding DC boosts other than the +3 you'd be able to gain from augmenting your "wild surged" energy current with the maximum 6 PP (using the damage/DC augment), and assuming a +9 Cha mod, the save DC of your power would be 24. Which in turn means there's a 35% chance an average CR 16 enemy fails its Fort save as a primary target of your cold energy current, and a 55% chance this enemy fails its Ref as the primary target of your energy current of another energy type. And against an average CR 19 enemy primary target, there's a 20% chance it fails its Fort and a 45% chance it fails its Ref. With Duality, these chances increase to approximately 58% vs Fort and 80% vs Ref against an average CR 16 enemy, and to 36% vs Fort and 70% vs Ref against an average CR 19 enemy. (Keep in mind that unlike the SR values, the Fort and Ref save bonuses of individual creatures often differ quite considerably from the above averages, their respective standard deviations ranging from almost 3 to almost 5.)

So the effect probabilities for your "wild surged duality twinned" energy current against an average CR 16 primary target with P/SR would be approximately:

No effect: 25% You fail your ML check to overcome the enemy's P/SR.
Half damage: 15% (31.5% if cold vs Fort) You overcome the enemy's P/SR but it makes both saves..
Full damage: 60% (43.5% if cold vs Fort) You overcome the enemy's P/SR and it fails at least one of the two saves.

And against an average CR 19 enemy primary target with P/SR, these probabilities would instead be approximately:

No effect: 40% You fail your ML check to overcome the enemy's P/SR.
Half damage: 18% (38.5% if cold vs Fort) You overcome the enemy's P/SR but it makes both saves.
Full damage: 42% (21.5% if cold vs Fort) You overcome the enemy's P/SR and it fails at least one of the two saves.

Going by the above statistics for your "wild surged duality twinned" energy current, I think it's very likely each +1 bonus to ML checks to overcome P/SR with the power will have a far greater relative impact on combat than each +1 bonus to the DC, especially against more challenging BBEG types. If you'd like to find out if - and to which extent - this could be true in the case of your wilder and game, try multiplying these probabilities with the average damage you expect your energy current will deal at this level, do the same but against enemies without P/SR to find out the expected total net DPR, and then adjust the save DC and/or P/SR penetration to find out the effects that will have on the resulting total net DPR.

I hope this at least gave you an idea of why I said I'd pump P/SR penetration.