Shouldn't Sorcerer and Cleric swap Primary Stats?

[Schwann145]

Yes, I know *why* they are the way they are - sacred cows.

But hear me out:
•Wizards learn their magic through rigorous study and the strength of their memory and intellect. As such, Intelligence is the appropriate stat.
•Warlocks beseech their patron to share power that they otherwise wouldn't have through persuasion, bargaining, and force of personality. As such, Charisma makes the most sense and is the appropriate stat.
•Clerics do much like Warlocks, beseeching their deity to bless them with the miracle of their power which will be used to spread and defend the faith. So, just like with Paladins, Charisma also makes the most sense... but hang on, they use Wisdom? Weird hiccup.
•Sorcerers don't study or beseech anything for their power - their power is purely innate and requires intense inner strength and force of will to manipulate and control. The stat that is used to best represent such a thing seems to be Wisdom (consider effects that require Wisdom saves); it's a little messy as Wisdom as a stat has pretty much always been poorly explained (is it force of will? is it general awareness? perception? all of the above even though these aren't necessarily related? uh... sure?) but it certainly fits better than either Intelligence or Charisma ("she fought off the mental attacks of the demon through sheer force of personality" is not a sentence you will ever see or hear uttered - it's "sheer force of will" and we all know it! :smallbiggrin: ).


tl;dr - Seems like it would make way more thematic sense for Sorcerers to be Wis based and Clerics to be Cha based, and as they're both mental stats, I don't see any reason the swap would break anything.
Thoughts?

[Greywander]

I see Wisdom in this context representing how in-tune you are with your deity. In a way, it is how righteous you are (actually righteous, not self-righteous). Wisdom allows you to see beyond the legalistic interpretations of your scriptures and understand your deity's will and intent. The higher your Wisdom, the better you understand your deity, and the more easily you can carry out their will.

As for sorcerers, Charisma here is working as your force of personality. Basically, the strength of your will and your ability to project that will onto the outside world. For most people, this stops at manipulating people through words and actions in order to get them to do what you want, but for sorcerers this manifests as tangible magic.

As for swapping around casting stats, it shouldn't be a problem. Wisdom is inherently more valuable since WIS saves are more common than other mental saves, and boosting your WIS for spellcasting will also boost your WIS saves. WIS is also used for Perception, the "most important skill". But I think you'll find plenty of people happy to use INT or CHA because it fits their character concept better.

[Hytheter]

•Clerics do much like Warlocks, beseeching their deity to bless them with the miracle of their power which will be used to spread and defend the faith. So, just like with Paladins, Charisma also makes the most sense...

Paladins using Charisma isn't to do with beseeching deities, because that's not how Paladins work. Their power comes from their oath and their strength of conviction, and they don't have to be connected to gods at all. Whether Charisma or any other attribute should actually indicate strength of conviction is another matter, though.

[Millstone85]

In addition to what Greywander said, I think the idea behind Wisdom saving throws is not force-of-will but self-awareness. You don't easily get lost in a chain of thought, and recognize when there is something in your mind that should not be.

[Morty]

Clerics use Wisdom because clerics use Wisdom. That's basically what it boils down to. Wisdom is a really mushy attribute at the best of times. It's willpower, but also perception and "common sense"... and divine magic, somehow. I don't think it would make any more or less sense if you swapped clerics' and sorcerers' casting stats. In addition to Wisdom being a mess, we're talking about magic, so it's not as if it's going to be unrealistic.

[Ganryu]

Completely, and utterly agreed. Wisdom boils down to perception.

... What do clerics need to percieve? Their deity is happy with them or he isn't. Your noticing of senpai doesn't make senpai notice you. Druids, it makes complete and utter sense with.

Sorcerers, however, are noticing their innate ability and control. What do they even have to be charismatic about? Force of will? Doesn't make much sense in this context, they aren't bending the world around them, they're using magic within themselves.

[8wGremlin]

Totally Agree.

I would prefer it if Sorcerers used Wisdom and Clerics used Charisma.
makes more sense to me.

[Man_Over_Game]

Conceptually, yes. One of the definitions of Charisma is your 'force of will', or your connection to God.

Traditionally, no. Wisdom has always been used as the 'mysterious' stat that is linked to foresight and Gods, and especially Clerics. Charisma has always been a catch-all.

Mechanically, no. Multiclassing Clerics and Warlocks would create a powerful and diverse caster that would surpass the Sorlock or Eldritch Knights in versatility and melee prowess.
Multiclassing Sorcerers with Monks and Rangers will border on the Sorcadin territory, where melee combatants have easy access to Shield and Booming Blade. Although this isn't nearly as great of a concern, as they still won't have the risk-free Divine Smite.

In the end, it will mean that multiclassing will result in more versatility, but fewer synergies. This sounds fine on paper, but it will mean that something that's already versatile, like the Eldritch Knight, can be better replaced by a Cleric hybrid.

[intregus]

I'm going to be that guy the says sorcerers should cast off con......

[Garfunion]

I'm going to be that guy the says sorcerers should cast off con......
I agree with you. I always felt the sorcerer was more of a mid to frontline caster or “rage mage”.
Imagine a sorcerer surrounded beating up and bloodied then all of a sudden a power within the sorcerer bursts forth and destroys everyone around them.
That is how a see sorcerers.

[Foxydono]

In my mind, sorcerers have inherent magic and cast with Constitution. Sorcery points should have ben hit points, this makes things so much more interesting. But, I understand why they haven't done this.

[HiveStriker]

I'll have to disagree on the premise that Wisdom is ill-adapted for Clerics.

I understand the process behind, and it's certainly a viable way to see Charisma as fitting.
But if you consider Wisdom as "full awareness" (of self AND the environment), then shouldn't it be natural it's the ability tied with divinity relationship?

I mean, I don't know well how divinity is described in 5e, but it's a common trope to consider that divinity manifests itself inherently within life.
So you discern and understand the existence of divinity you first have to be able to really "feel" the environment.

Another argument: Charisma means force of will, but also persuasion, ability to think and decide for itself.
You can certainly be like that and also be a believer. Do you think however it's the most common case? It's not what I've seen in actual life: many priests can display force of conviction because they are following rules and values they believe in.
They probably thought about it hard, but it's still somewhat "external" to them, something "pushed" on them, in a "you order I obey" relationship, although not direct, but rather by interpreting signs.
(Like roman religions and auguries, you see a "natural" event happen and you try to identify some message from your deity in it because of the particular circumstances).

[KorvinStarmast]

Shouldn't Sorcerer and Cleric swap Primary Stats?
No. I think you are overthinking this.
Wisdom has been an enhanceement to clerical spell casting since AD&D 1e. (Bonus Spells for higher Wisdom is where it started) .
Charisma didn't become a spell casting stat until 3e. Charisma changed from "how one influences others" into "innate spell casting / force of will" with the sorcerer class. The Devs explicitly decoupled it from Int and Wis. The Sorcerer is the original Charisma based spell caster.

Traditionally, no. Wisdom has always been used as the 'mysterious' stat that is linked to foresight and Gods, and especially Clerics. Charisma has always been a catch-all.
That is untrue. It was always, before the WoTC era, a stat that influenced roll play/influence vis a vis NPCs, Hirelings, Henchmen, etc.

Up through AD&D 2e, Charisma was not a spell casting stat at all. WoTC changed that, unfortunately.

Bickering about how the gamified mental/non physical stats (INT,WIS,CHA) map to real life is, IME and IMO, to misunderstand what stats do. They allow enough structure for the game to be played (particularly in the WoTC era of D&D)

About the separation of Wisdom and Int:

Most of us have met people who are really smart and have great memories, but have low common sense or low understanding of how things fit (the old can't see the forest for the trees). This is the kind of distinction Int and Wis were aimed at emulating in the rough approximation/simulationist element of D&D in its proto stages and early editions.

[stoutstien]

If you want to butcher the scared cow if stats array you might as well remove mental stats as a whole.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you want to butcher the scared cow if stats array you might as well remove mental stats as a whole.
Or, do what Empire of the Petal Throne did and make a separate stat for casting called Psychic Ability. (1975, MAR Barker)

[Guy Lombard-O]

Conceptually, yes. One of the definitions of Charisma is your 'force of will', or your connection to God.

Traditionally, no. Wisdom has always been used as the 'mysterious' stat that is linked to foresight and Gods, and especially Clerics. Charisma has always been a catch-all.

Mechanically, no. Multiclassing Clerics and Warlocks would create a powerful and diverse caster that would surpass the Sorlock or Eldritch Knights in versatility and melee prowess.
Multiclassing Sorcerers with Monks and Rangers will border on the Sorcadin territory, where melee combatants have easy access to Shield and Booming Blade. Although this isn't nearly as great of a concern, as they still won't have the risk-free Divine Smite.

In the end, it will mean that multiclassing will result in more versatility, but fewer synergies. This sounds fine on paper, but it will mean that something that's already versatile, like the Eldritch Knight, can be better replaced by a Cleric hybrid.

I don't know which stat it should be (Wisdom or Charisma), but conceptually it very much seems to me that Clerics and Warlocks are basically doing the same thing - beseeching an other-worldly/divine power for aid and magic. So I personally think that they should be based upon the same stat...conceptually.

Could you go into a little more depth about the worrying mechanics you see behind the cleric/warlock multiclass? I'm planning a homebrew campaign in which I was planning to move warlock to Wisdom, and would be very interested in your take on the perils.

[micahaphone]

Consider what causes wis saves vs what causes cha saves. Wis saves are against charms and fears and other things where you are not letting something imaginary have a physical effect on you, that's one type of mental fortitude. Cha saves are against very direct things, like banishment or a ghost's possession. A very wise person can detach themselves from the horrifying imagery created by the Fear spell, whereas a very charismatic person can directly challenge a ghost trying to puppet your body.

[GlenSmash!]

I don't think Warlocks beseech anything when using spells. Oh they make pacts but that pact is already established. In the moment accessing the power of that pact make takes force of personality, which is Charisma.

Likewise I don't think Clerics beseech in the moment either. Their relationship with the deity is already established. What the cleric is trying to do know is perceive what the will of the Deity is and how to apply that to the world, which requires perceiving the world as it is.

[stoutstien]

Consider what causes wis saves vs what causes cha saves. Wis saves are against charms and fears and other things where you are not letting something imaginary have a physical effect on you, that's one type of mental fortitude. Cha saves are against very direct things, like banishment or a ghost's possession. A very wise person can detach themselves from the horrifying imagery created by the Fear spell, whereas a very charismatic person can directly challenge a ghost trying to puppet your body.

What saves are what are mostly random. Fear effects are wisdom unless they are illusions then intelligence but not if counter fear then it is charisma.
Same for physical ones. Hit something with a ball of water it strength but push something with thunder it's Constitution. Tidal wave is Dex and tsunami is strength.

It only makes sense because we are used to the idiosyncrasies.

[djreynolds]

It is an interesting idea, and I might say both cleric and sorcerer both use the same stat

Both a cleric and sorcerer need to have faith in their deity or themselves

Its why monks and cleric use wisdom, they have faith in themselves/deity

its an interesting thought

[Grey Watcher]

I always figured the reason why the casting stats are what they are isn't related to how the casters get their powers. It's related to how they apply their powers.

Intelligence and Wisdom based casters work their magic because they understand the world around them in one way or another. They can see beyond the obvious and know exactly where and how to apply their magic to maximum effect.

Charisma casters are, comparatively, brute-forcing things. They engage the Universe itself in a staring contest and the Universe blinks first. When their speak their incantations and make their magic gestures, they're doing so with such profundity that the laws of physics themselves have to sit up and pay attention, no matter how little sense what they're doing makes.

--------------------------------------------------

Alternatively, if you want to go with the casting stat representing how they get their power, then I still would go with Wisdom for the Cleric. The general conceit is that the Cleric (and indeed the Druid and all the "priest" type classes) is less of a preacher (though she can be) and more of a philosopher. It's not about begging your deity super hard until they give in, it's about rising to the challenge of understanding what your deity is putting out into the world. And understanding it so hard that you can actually channel it and become an instrument thereof.

As for Sorcerers... :shrug: The how and why of how they get their powers is pretty consistently described of having nothing to do with the caster as a person. It's just something you're born with or it's bestowed from on high (or down below) or it's owed the agency of an ill-natured fairy or something. As a Sorcerer, you don't "acquire" or "learn" powers powers; you just have them whether you like it or not. Sure, you might learn to shape the magic fire burning inside you into a Burning Hands or a Fireball spell, but that doesn't say anything about where the fire is coming from.

And as such, you can really rationalize any stat for the Sorcerer: Charisma, because it relates to their sheer "force of personality" (whatever that means)? Wisdom, because it's about understanding and connecting with yourself? Intelligence, because it's essentially that you're just a genius savant? Constitution, because this is part of your physical being as much as breathing? Sure, anything goes!

Heck, there are too many Charisma-based casters anyway, so I don't see a need for the Sorcerer to swap. Just change it if you want.

[Sniccups]

If we're talking about making clerics and paladins cast with the same stat, I'd actually switch paladins to Wisdom rather than clerics to Charisma.

[redwizard007]

Sorcerers need faith in themselves. CHA.

Clerics need to relinquish themselves. Not CHA.

I've always thought of the mental stats as reflections of the physical stats. Int is how quick and agile your mind is. Wis is how tough your mind is. Cha is how forceful your mind is. It make the saving throws (mostly) make sense.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sorcerers need faith in themselves. CHA.

Clerics need to relinquish themselves. Not CHA.

I've always thought of the mental stats as reflections of the physical stats. Int is how quick and agile your mind is. Wis is how tough your mind is. Cha is how forceful your mind is. It make the saving throws (mostly) make sense.

Wait, how do Sorcerers need faith in themselves? That's like saying a Rogue needs faith that their ramged attack will work so they can use Cha for attack and damage on a sneak attack.

Sorcerers have natural talent. Honestly, I always liked Constitution for a Sorcerer. They get their spells from their natural bodies. Their magic comes from natural effort, not thinking things through.

I think spellcasters, in WotC 5e, should have flexible spellcasting ability scores. Have spells give a secondary ability score option that you can cast from.

Burning Hands can be Int or Cha, whichever is higher for the character.

Spell book feature works off Int or Wis.

Channel Divinity features could work off Wis or Cha, whichever is higher.

[kazaryu]

Yes, I know *why* they are the way they are - sacred cows.

But hear me out:

•Clerics do much like Warlocks, beseeching their deity to bless them with the miracle of their power which will be used to spread and defend the faith. So, just like with Paladins, Charisma also makes the most sense... but hang on, they use Wisdom? Weird hiccup.


-Paladins don't get their magic the same way, for paladins its about doing what theyve decided to do, regardless of their desires. That being said theres a pretty strong srgument for paladins ti be wisdom instead of charisma too.
For warlocks the casting stat isnt due to them being 'convincing' their patron. Most patrons dont need convincing, not in that way. Their casting stat is charisma because the patron gives them innate magic, theyre pseudo-sorcerers
For clerics its all about them being devited to a gods ideals, accepting thebgids ideals as their own. Clerics that stop desiring the same thjng as their gods, tend to have a chrisis of faith which leads to reduction in their powers

(You may have noticed a theme here, ill come back to that later)


•Sorcerers don't study or beseech anything for their power - their power is purely innate and requires intense inner strength and force of will to manipulate and control. The stat that is used to best represent such a thing seems to be Wisdom (consider effects that require Wisdom saves); it's a little messy as Wisdom as a stat has pretty much always been poorly explained (is it force of will? is it general awareness? perception? all of the above even though these aren't necessarily related? uh... sure?) but it certainly fits better than either Intelligence or Charisma ("she fought off the mental attacks of the demon through sheer force of personality" is not a sentence you will ever see or hear uttered - it's "sheer force of will" and we all know it! :smallbiggrin: ).

Notice, the most common wis saves are charm effects. They forcibly change what you desire. Whereas charisma saves that achieve the same result (the best example being possession) usurp that. They wrest control of your body regardless of what you want. So youre still concious, you realize youre being controlled, but are powerless to stop it.

All that to say, the way i see it
Wis: what you want to do
Cha: actually doing it.




tl;dr - Seems like it would make way more thematic sense for Sorcerers to be Wis based and Clerics to be Cha based, and as they're both mental stats, I don't see any reason the swap would break anything.
Thoughts?

I disagree that it makes thematic sense. However, if you think it makes more thematic sense, then i agree thats its not actually going to break anything mechanically. Now your cleric can face, but are instead easier to.lie to and have worse vision. Whereas sorcs are harder to lie to and can see better, but are worse faces. No biggie.

[redwizard007]

Wait, how do Sorcerers need faith in themselves? That's like saying a Rogue needs faith that their ramged attack will work so they can use Cha for attack and damage on a sneak attack.

Sorcerers have natural talent. Honestly, I always liked Constitution for a Sorcerer. They get their spells from their natural bodies. Their magic comes from natural effort, not thinking things through.

I think spellcasters, in WotC 5e, should have flexible spellcasting ability scores. Have spells give a secondary ability score option that you can cast from.

Burning Hands can be Int or Cha, whichever is higher for the character.

Spell book feature works off Int or Wis.

Channel Divinity features could work off Wis or Cha, whichever is higher.

Sorcerers dont get their magic from their body. That's blood magic which we haven't seen in 5e. Sorcerers are literally willing magic into being. That is hard core Charisma.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sorcerers dont get their magic from their body. That's blood magic which we haven't seen in 5e. Sorcerers are literally willing magic into being. That is hard core Charisma.

Sorcerers literally get their power from their innate abilities. Their origin makes up a huge chunk of their features.

5e Sorcerers **are** magic. You're thinking Wizards.

[redwizard007]

Sorcerers literally get their power from their innate abilities. Their origin makes up a huge chunk of their features.

5e Sorcerers **are** magic. You're thinking Wizards.

What I hear you saying is that sorcerer should be a race and not a class.

[stoutstien]

What I hear you saying is that sorcerer should be a race and not a class.

Nah, it should just use Constitution as spellcasting stat.

[redwizard007]

Nah, it should just use Constitution as spellcasting stat.

Why not Dex?

[MoiMagnus]

Thoughts?

Stats are chosen so that stereotypical medieval-fantastic characters are actually playable.
Wizard -> "I'm the nerd!" -> Intelligence
Paladin & Sorcerer & Bard -> "I wanna be a hero!" -> Charisma
Cleric & Druid & Ranger & Monk -> "I'm the wise sage!" -> Wisdom
(And warlock kind of oscillated between Charisma and Intelligence because there is no clear stereotype for them.)

In other words, sorcerer are expected to be able to behave in a "completely unwise and unreasonable way" in their lust for power, so giving them Wisdom as a spell-casting ability would go against that.

Cleric and Paladin are already quite near to another, so if you change Cleric's spell-casting to Charisma, I don't see a lot of points in keeping those two classes separated. Just give to some of the subclasses of the divine spellcaster quicker spell levels than to the other subclasses (similarly to how the fighter has a subclass with spells).

Personally, especially since they lost their animal companion, I kind of considered the Druid as a "Cleric of Nature", so having them use different spell-casting abilities would feel weird (and the Druid must use Wisdom, since nature-related skill are on Wisdom). But on the other hand, maybe it would help me feel the thematic difference between the two.

[stoutstien]

Why not Dex?

Nothing about how the class interacts with the weave screams subtle or finesse. there magic is channeling through their bodies and they control and focus it, not by nudging it, but pure vital force of being. so Constitution.

Wizards study
Clerics pray
Warlocks make deals
Paladin are chosen
Druids are one with the nature/ divine

Sorcerer are.

[Aimeryan]

As I see it, all casting should come from Intelligence or Charisma; channelled via knowledge or force of will. However, there should also be a fuel source of Constitution or Wisdom; powered by internal magic or external magic. Here are the combinations as I see it:


Constitution & Charisma - Sorcerer, Four Element Monks, possible future spell-casting Barbarian subclass - Fuelled by their own essence, channelled by their force of will
Wisdom & Charisma - Druid, Cleric, Paladin - Fuelled by their ability to perceive and gather from the Divine, channelled by their force of will
Constitution & Intelligence - Warlock - Fuelled by the power invested upon them, channelled by knowledge imparted upon them
Wisdom & Intelligence - Wizard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Ranger, Artificer, Bard - Fuelled by their ability to perceive and gather from the Weave, channelled by knowledge gained through study

The fuel source usually gets converted into spell slots, although with Monks it gets converted into Ki, while Sorcerers convert some to spell slots and some to Sorcerer Points. The amount of the fuel source should be dependent on the appropriate stat and level.

Note that Monks don't cast outside of the Four Elements subclass, so Charisma would still remain a dump stat for them.

[redwizard007]

Nothing about how the class interacts with the weave screams subtle or finesse. there magic is channeling through their bodies and they control and focus it, not by nudging it, but pure vital force of being. so Constitution.

Wizards study
Clerics pray
Warlocks make deals
Paladin are chosen
Druids are one with the nature/ divine

Sorcerer are.

Then why constitution? Force of being doesn't have anything to do with how durable you are. ITS LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF CHARISMA. And now you made me look like I'm arguing for a specific political party. Ugh!

[stoutstien]

Then why constitution? Force of being doesn't have anything to do with how durable you are. ITS LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF CHARISMA. And now you made me look like I'm arguing for a specific political party. Ugh!

You might want to reread the using ablity scores section.
Nothing In the Charisma section ,beside the part about it being a casting stat for some, mentions it being force of will, life, or a force at all.

Compared to Constitution which flat out says it is a measurement of health, stamina, and vital force.

Sounds like 3 things you would need to survive having magic being part of your being.

[MoiMagnus]

Nothing In the Charisma section ,beside the part about it being a casting stat for some, mentions it being force of will, life, or a force at all.

You have this part that could be interpreted as such:


Six abilities provide a quick description of every creature's physical and mental characteristics:
[...]
Charisma, measuring force of personality


But you're right that the detailed description phrase it differently:



Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.

If you go toward previous editions, in 4e Charisma (together with Wisdom) actually contribute to the Will defence, and the actual description in 3.5 is:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

If you remain in 5e, the following spells require a Charisma save:

Banishment
Calm Emotions
Dispel Evil
Divine Word
escaping from a Forcecage
penetrating a Magic Circle
choosing not to be affected by a Seeming spell
Planar Binding
an involuntary Plane Shift
the hopelessness effect of a Symbol spell
Zone of Truth

I'm not sure what to deduce from this list, though.

[redwizard007]

You might want to reread the using ablity scores section.
Nothing In the Charisma section ,beside the part about it being a casting stat for some, mentions it being force of will, life, or a force at all.

Compared to Constitution which flat out says it is a measurement of health, stamina, and vital force.

Sounds like 3 things you would need to survive having magic being part of your being.


Clarifying Charisma for you...

I'm assuming you are going of pages 12 & 13 of the PH, where it specifically states that it is a "quick reference guide." IME that usually denotes abbreviated content. To flesh out that table we can dip into previous editions which line up... well, exactly. This gives us such quotes pertaining to Charisma as "force of personality" (4ed,) and "actual strength of personality" (3.5ed.)

You have this idea that a sorcerer's blood is tied to their bloodline. It's not. They just share some letters. If you replaced "bloodline" with "genetic heritage" would you still be arguing that Con was a better fit? Probably not unless you are looking for an excuse for a Con based, super SAD caster. I see the appeal, but the argument is weak.

[Nagog]

I agree with OP here. I've always seen Wisdom and Intelligence translated into D&D as irl Intelligence and Knowledge (but there are so many close-but-not-quite synonyms, it's all lumped together).

In terms of D&D, Wisdom has nothing to do with Tomatoes in fruit salads, and everything to do with thinking outside the box. Asking the right questions, deductive reasoning and a step and a half beyond common sense. Hence, Perception. Sure the rogue noticed that person seems to be digging in the dirt behind a low wall, but it's not their problem so they move on without even realizing they noticed. But the cleric, the cleric notices and thinks about it, even if just for a half second. Notices their eyes are frantic, there's sweat on their forehead. And boom makes the connection that they need to pay more attention to this.

Also in terms of D&D, Intelligence is translated to knowledge. You know about the world, even if you've never experienced it. You know the typical signs that somebody is lying because you read them in a book, but you don't typically notice them when they happen. You know how to manipulate magic and whatnot because you looked up a IoTube illusion on it.

And then there's Charisma. Charisma is pretty much as it sounds. Force of personality, eloquence of speech (which may also dip into Int a tad), things that are always noticeable in a person but not always quantifiable.

So perhaps the difference between Clerics and Warlocks is how direct the communication between them and their spell-granter is? For Warlocks, it's typically one on one. You call up your magic sugar daddy and convince them that you deserve this magic, deserve this raise. For Clerics, they ensure they're doing the job their manager told them to do, and they have their spell slots on direct deposit, cha-ching, into their mana pool.
By that notion, perhaps Sorcerers should be Int based, as you experiment and learn about yourself and how when you feel X, Y happens, etc etc etc. Planes above know we could use more Int based casters.

[MoiMagnus]

In terms of D&D, Wisdom has nothing to do with Tomatoes in fruit salads, and everything to do with thinking outside the box. Asking the right questions, deductive reasoning and a step and a half beyond common sense.

Wait, what? "Investigation: you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues."

While I agree "social intelligence" is not part of Intelligence, but shared between Charisma and Wisdom, anything related to deduction and logic (so IQ tests) are definitely Intelligence. I'd argue "thinking outside the box" would also be in intelligence.

I've always seen Wisdom more as "having good guts", which allows you to quickly feel what's important and what's not, what's normal and what's not, and what's the very best thing to do at very short term. Nothing "outside the box". At the contrary, you follow the most natural behaviour that anybody would have if they correctly understood what's happening.

[djreynolds]

Charisma casters are, comparatively, brute-forcing things. They engage the Universe itself in a staring contest and the Universe blinks first.

That is BLEEPING AWESOME.

Why did you have to follow me?

I can't be that.

Awesome

[Clistenes]

With regard to Clerics, my theory is that Wisdom helps them understand the alien, inhuman nature of their patrons. The gods won't grant power to some guy who just pays them lip service, they want their priests to truly identify with and champion the principles they represent from the bottom of their hearts, and the first step to do that is to understand these...

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't know which stat it should be (Wisdom or Charisma), but conceptually it very much seems to me that Clerics and Warlocks are basically doing the same thing - beseeching an other-worldly/divine power for aid and magic. So I personally think that they should be based upon the same stat...conceptually.

Could you go into a little more depth about the worrying mechanics you see behind the cleric/warlock multiclass? I'm planning a homebrew campaign in which I was planning to move warlock to Wisdom, and would be very interested in your take on the perils.

It's kind of a complex topic that revolves around two important things:

1: Power creep is what happens when two features can be used together or at the same time.

2: Weaknesses in a build are how you allow other players to shine.


The AC and class powers of a Cleric can be used at the same time with the high damage and power level of a Warlock. The reason Clerics are balanced, despite having powerful spells, healing, features, and proficiencies, is the fact that they deal little damage and that they have no spell recharging capabilities.

Guess what the Warlock gives them?


Now you have a class that has it all. Imagine making a Wizard that takes his first 2 levels into Fighter for some dumb meta build, except this time it means short-rest recharging Healing Words and Spirit Guardian.

Sure, you could pull off something similar with Divine Soul Sorcerer and Warlock, but now you get Medium/Heavy armor and Cleric features, instead of having your subclass feature just be to have Cleric spells.


It's too versatile AND too effective. Personally, I think you should only be one of those.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not sure what to deduce from this list, though.

Two things:

Charisma helps you resist attacks against your personality. This is different from Wisdom, which helps you against being confused or losing control of their functions. Forcing someone to be angry or tell the truth would be a Charisma save.

Additionally, your placement in the universe is tied to your persona. Pure Evil and Good creatures have their own worlds and their own planar identities that tie into those alignments, and so do you. The stronger your personality, the stronger your soul can resist displacement.

[JoeJ]

I think the original idea was that calling a religious leader wise is seen as more complimentary than calling them charismatic, which suggests they could be using their charisma to manipulate people. That is, there wasn't a clear separation between the game definitions of wisdom and charisma, and their colloquial meanings. By the time sorcerers were introduced, the association between clerics and wisdom was firmly established. Sorcerers were probably given charisma just so they wouldn't overlap clerics or wizards.

[Wizard_Lizard]

ok. If we are talking about whether or not charisma makes sense for paladin.... personally i say tat it does. charisma is force of will. Hence why when my devotion paladin fell ou of their god's good graces.... they were surprised to find that they did nt become an oathbreaker. on account of still holding oto the tenents. personally Iwould tie the tenents to charisma and also paladins power does NOT come from gods.