Yuan-ti paladin - STR/DEX vs CHA

[Greywander]

So I thought I'd see if I could take the somewhat cookie-cutter yuan-ti Ancients paladin build and make an actually interesting character out of it. I thought I might roll with the snake theme and use a whip with a DEX build. But now I find myself wondering if I should value STR/DEX over CHA or the other way around.

Paladins use CHA for a couple of things, most notably their spellcasting and Aura of Protection. But paladins are first and foremost a martial class, and so the general consensus seems to be that STR/DEX outweighs CHA in value as you spend most of your time making weapon attacks. Yuan-ti, however, are a bit different for a couple of reason that skew them further toward valuing CHA.

First, yuan-ti get a racial bump to CHA, but not to STR or DEX. I can start with a 17 CHA using point buy, but only a 15 STR or DEX. I'd probably want to use my level 4 ASI to even these both out to 16 STR/DEX and 18 CHA. It will be easier to push CHA to 20 than it will be STR or DEX.

Second, yuan-ti get Magic Resistance, giving them advantage on saves vs. magic. What this means is that each +1 to your saves becomes a lot stronger, dramatically increasing your odds of passing the save. This makes maxing out CHA for Aura of Protection much more valuable.

Now, you can, of course, push both STR/DEX and CHA to 20, but doing so will require 4 ASIs (5 if you don't get a racial bump to one of these stats), and you only get 5 ASIs to work with. Maybe you want some feats. Is it better to push both to 20? Or to only push STR/DEX to 20 and pick up an extra feat or two? Or to only push CHA to 20?

Now, I could always dip into Hexblade, but that seems like a copout, and I'm not sure it makes sense for this character. Plus, it would mean going for STR, as I only need 15 STR to wear plate, but I need 20 DEX to get an equivalent light armor AC. Medium armor is an option, but leaves me 1 AC short unless I spend an ASI for Medium Armor Master.

I feel like ultimately I should aim to push both DEX and CHA to 20, and then pick up one feat. Although, if I get two half feats that boost DEX or CHA then that would work, too. Sadly, there aren't a whole lot of half feats. Some of this may also hinge on whether or not I multiclass, as I might get fewer (or more) ASIs. A rogue dip might fit the character concept, but paladin 12/fighter 8 would net me an additional feat. Going 7 levels into Samurai allows me to get proficiency with all three strong saves (with Resilient).

[Theaitetos]

There are always items to get STR to a high level, however there are no such items for CHA.

And if you dip warlock, it doesn't have to be Hexblade patron: At level 3 choose Pact of the Tome and then Shillelagh as one of your cantrips; then you can use the quarterstaff with CHA. A Celestial or Archfey patron might work well with the Ancients Paladin.

[Sherlockpwns]

My take on it is pretty simple really: Go for CHA. Many players can fill the role of being a meat shield, but only a paladin (ideally ancients) can fill the role of keeping multiple party members safe from spells.

Not only are there items to give you some dex, I assume you're not just goin to dump-stat it anyway. So in the end, lets say you have +5 cha vs. +3 dex.

The best thing about a whip paladin (which is a concept I have built on paper but never played, so I am envious) is most of your damage comes from smite... which only triggers on your hit. Meaning even though your -2 to hit (if you had gone for +5 dex instead) will make you miss a bit more, you aren't really wasting much on the misses.

So this comes back to that multiclass question. The value of dex goes WAY up if you start thinking of multiclassing rogue, simply because t hen your damage is coming from sneak (and still a bit of smite). At the very least I don't see multiclassing out of paladin until level 8, Paladin gets some good stuff at 10 and 11 too... and then you get the ASI at 12... So yeah, if a multi would happen I see it at level 13? That's a LONG time for most campaigns (probably never).

I'm personally not a fan of the whole warlock dip thing if there's no RP reason for it. Giving you a 1d8+cha with cha to hit is nice and it has a few other perks, but you miss out on having the ability to use any weapon you find in your adventure. There's a lot of cool weapons out there (Granted you may not have the str to use them either). But yeah, find a +1 or +2 rapier (or whip) and you've basically just removed the entire reason you picked up warlock.



So my take on it would be this:

Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 9
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Pick up Defensive for the +1 AC and just stick to Medium armor, shield and whip.

At level 4 bring Cha up to 18. At level 8 decide if you'd rather bring it up to 20 or pick up a feat that gives +1 dex. You should have a feel for if the to hit bonus is worth it by this point. Resilient Dex is an obvious choice to maintain your status of "Saves king!" Athelete could also work, especially if the DM can work your whip into it Dr. Jones.

I think one thing not to underestimate with this is that your Cha will give you reliable casting of the Command spell. It can often times be worth a LOT more than a smite attack, potentially removing an opponent for a round and giving multiple AoOs. It may end up being the bread and butter of the build, in fact... that plus giving all your allies insane resistance to spells. So the interesting thing about this character to ME is positioning yourself on the battlefield to be able to cast or whip while providing maximum protection to everyone.

[Greywander]

There are always items to get STR to a high level, however there are no such items for CHA.

And if you dip warlock, it doesn't have to be Hexblade patron: At level 3 choose Pact of the Tome and then Shillelagh as one of your cantrips; then you can use the quarterstaff with CHA. A Celestial or Archfey patron might work well with the Ancients Paladin.
Shield+q-staff is a solid paladin loadout, especially with PAM for that additional attack to take full advantage of Improved Divine Smite and the Dueling style to maximize damage. I did mention I was wanting to use a whip to fit with the snake theme, but I'm not married to it, and IIRC there is a snake staff in the DMG (though Staff of Power would be my first choice for optimization purposes).


(which is a concept I have built on paper but never played, so I am envious)
Sorry, this is also only on paper. But maybe one day...


The value of dex goes WAY up if you start thinking of multiclassing rogue, simply because t hen your damage is coming from sneak (and still a bit of smite).
A STR build would work for this, too: Sneak Attack only requires a finesse weapon, not attacking with DEX. If you don't end up taking DEX to 20, you're probably better off doing a STR build instead for the better AC.


At the very least I don't see multiclassing out of paladin until level 8, Paladin gets some good stuff at 10 and 11 too... and then you get the ASI at 12... So yeah, if a multi would happen I see it at level 13? That's a LONG time for most campaigns (probably never).
Yeah, this is one of the frustrating things about multiclassing. You plan out the perfect build, only to realize that you won't actually have everything until 20th level. For some reason, seeing class features listed at lower levels causes me to subconsciously think as if I get those features at those levels, which I won't if I'm multiclassing. You don't look at a 3rd level feature and think, "Yes, this is my level 20 capstone," because you're looking at the build as an aggregation of abilities, not a step-by-step path from 1 to 20.

Something like a hexblade dip might come early, since it would be integral for the build to work, but a lot of other dips might not happen until later, in which case I may as well just assume I'll be playing a straight paladin for the first 11 or 12 levels. Once I reach that point, if the campaign is still going then I can consider what multiclass option makes the most sense for my character based on how I've actually been playing them so far.


Pick up Defensive for the +1 AC and just stick to Medium armor, shield and whip.
This still leaves me behind in AC by 1, compared to going STR and using plate. Whip is also a melee weapon, so it can be used with STR just as well as DEX. This does mean stealth will be difficult, if that's something I end up caring about (snakes are pretty stealthy, so it would be thematic). I was thinking of going for the UA Mariner style, since swimming and climbing are also thematic for snakes, but I just noticed you can't use a shield with it...


Resilient Dex is an obvious choice to maintain your status of "Saves king!"
I was debating whether to go DEX or CON for Resilient, if I get it. CON saves are arguably nastier (including effects like paralyzation and petrification), while DEX are mostly just damage. DEX saves are very common, though, and if I multiclass into rogue and get Evasion then good DEX saves become more valuable.

A Samurai multiclass can get proficiency in all three strong saves, but assuming I go paladin 12 then fighter 8 (or, in order for the saves to work out correctly, fighter 1 -> paladin 12 -> fighter 8), then I'd be 19th level before I got proficiency with Wisdom saves.


I think one thing not to underestimate with this is that your Cha will give you reliable casting of the Command spell.
Hmm, I hadn't considered making this character bossy, but I may have to rework my conception of them to justify using this tactic on the regular.


So the interesting thing about this character to ME is positioning yourself on the battlefield to be able to cast or whip while providing maximum protection to everyone.
With this in mind, mobility seems like it would be good to have, which makes a rogue dip more appealing. But going straight paladin allows me to extend my auras out to 30 feet, making it less necessary to move around.

[Quoz]

Played a Yuan-ti conquest paladin through level 20. Trust me, max out charisma. It will make you one of the hardest to kill characters in the game.

A charisma based paladin can get a lot more mileage out of casting spells than they do from attacking and smiting. At low levels its Bless and command, while at higher levels all of the aura spells, magic circle, ect are all incredible. Yeah your damage isn't spectacular, but you are a battle commander who leads from the front. The increased potency of your allies more than makes up for the loss of damage.

Even if you are playing pure paladin, look at picking up a few cantrips from magic initiate or (if valid at your table) the UA fighting styles. Having a charisma based ranged attack can be very useful.

[OldTrees1]

Paladins use CHA for a couple of things, most notably their spellcasting and Aura of Protection. But paladins are first and foremost a martial class, and so the general consensus seems to be that STR/DEX outweighs CHA in value as you spend most of your time making weapon attacks. Yuan-ti, however, are a bit different for a couple of reason that skew them further toward valuing CHA.

In my mind Paladins are first and foremost a protector class. They are protector 1st, martial 2nd in my mind. So I see the Cha based aspects of Paladin as more important.

In the last campaign most of my Paladin's contributions to combat occured before initiative was rolled. Everyone was fully healed, had 2 extra buffers of health, effectively had +2.5 attack, effectively had +7.5 to all saves, and effectively took 0-25% damage from spells. Charisma is a powerful tool for a Paladin.

[Corran]

For an ancients paladin, between dex and cha, I'd go with cha. In fact, I'd go with charisma over the attack stat for most paladins. The exception would probably be vengeance, where I'd focus on str over cha, just because of GWM. But then again, I'd focus on bumping str with my late ASI's, that is after having taken 3 feats. Anyway, back to ancients. Pumping dex will give you some small passive boosts to a few things, like dpr, initiative and stealth. Which will be nice, but they aren't really crucial. Meaning, you are not really a dpr to make the most of bumping your attack stat, and while an initiative boost is good for everyone, you are not a build that really demands every boost to initiative you can get (like a ranged dpr build would, or an assassin would, or a caster with good non friendly AoE's would, or any squishy build for that matter). On the other hand, charisma will affect things that give sense to why I am playing a paladin over a fighter for example. So, aside from aura of protection (which is the biggest reason on its own; and it has that nice synergy with magic resistance that you noted), charisma will bump your DC and your concentration (which is even more important if you don't plan on grabbing resilient con; and given that you play a non vhmuan, and also given that ancients font get any extra really appealing concentration spells, avoiding or at the very least postponing significantly resilient con makes some sense). What does this mean? That my wrathful smite (ie a good way to deal with brutes) got more reliable. Same with moonbeam, which is the only ranged AoE you have. Same with stuff like banishment later on. Or nature's wrath, which can be used to set up some good damage, but more importantly, to try and lock someone down (ideally target low str enemies with it), and which is a rare non concentration bc spell. Another rare non concentration bc spell that you have is plant growth (which imo is the most appealing thing that this oath has to offer, other than the capstone), which again profits from charisma bumps. Plus potentially a few more useful things that I may be forgetting. In short, boosting charisma means that you are expanding on what your build can accomplish, as opposed to trying to stick to a more straightforward and very fighter-y gameplay with the occasional nova from smites. And while I think that most people tend to overestimate versatility, I think in such cases it is worth it, cause the gain from boosting your physical stat (even in the case of dex) is too small for my liking.

If you go with a str build, don't even bother with str bumps. If you want to boost dpr just go with PAM instead. You'll miss the boost to athletics, but if you are going for a grappler build then replace PAM with prodigy or sth (diminishing returns due to action economy if you try to be both a ''weapon'' dpr and a grappler, so don't try it). Even if there are no items that boost str waiting for you, you wont miss much by sticking to a 16 in str.

MAM is a pretty bad feat in general, imo. It's only decent if there are several preconditions. Such as: You have decided to play a dex build, and you have decided to focus on charisma and perhaps on a few feats instead of boosting dex (so you'll stay with a 16 in dex), and you need to be stealthy, and you also find yourself tanking lots of hits because of small party or lots of squishy allies. So something to consider at level 8 for your build, though honestly I would rather go with multiclassing, or with something like mobile, than spend an ASI on MAM. I want to like this feat, and I've taken it on several characters, but every single time I regretted it. Because at best case scenario this is a feat spent to give you a +2 AC boost (which can bring it up to 20 or 21 depending on fighting style and assuming no magic items). Which isn't all that great if you ask me, considering with lots of others choices it has to compete. A best case scenario for MAM, that I was thinking some time back (cause I really want to like this feat), was mlticlassing into caster so that I could grab the shield spell, and thus make the best use of that +2 to AC that MAM would get me (all aforementioned preconditions would still need to apply too; ie need to be stealthy, and need to boost AC). And I still find it hard to do it for any non vhuman build. So I was thinking vhuman (non vengeance) paladin that multiclasses into either shadow sorcerer (for darkvision and shield) or into any non hexblade (for some reason) warlock (so that I have reason to keep a dex of 16). In short, I think you must set a lot of things up, or be in a very bad situation, for MAM to actually be even worth considering.

[Greywander]

Thanks for all the advice, I've been convinced to focus on CHA and leave DEX at 16.

For a straight paladin build, I'm considering the following ASI/feat choices:
Initial ability scores: 10, 15, 12, 10, 10, 17 (I could dump STR and INT to 8/9 to raise CON to 14, but is it worth it?)
4th Level: Serpent Form (racial feat*, +1 CHA) <- (part of the character concept, not useful in combat, but hey, comes with a CHA bump)
8th Level: +2 CHA
12th Level: Defensive Duelist <- (getting this before Resilient because actively used abilities are more fun than passive ones)
16th Level: Resilient (DEX)
19th Level: ??? (Lucky, Medium Armor Master, +2 DEX, Inspiring Leader, Warcaster...) <- (Given how late this comes, I don't know if I should figure this into the build)

*Source here: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/226194/Expanded-Racial-Feats. In retrospect, perhaps I shouldn't plan on a DM allowing this, but I intended to ask for something similar anyway as a narrative-based freebie.

I almost wonder if I should wait until 19th level for that +2 CHA, as it does nothing but make me slightly more effective. Getting a feat at 8th level lets me get key features earlier in the build, such as Defensive Duelist. That said, I feel like maxing CHA earlier is more optimized. I may also switch Defensive Duelist and Resilient, as I may be really wanting that DEX bump for my attacks. Alternatively, Resilient (CON) would boost my concentration checks.

Magic Initiate isn't a bad idea, but as a DEX build I should already have decent ranged options. If I did get MI, I wonder if it wouldn't be more useful to get utility cantrips over damage ones, though having the option of targeting saves rather than AC could be useful.