Mechanically best class for Avernus is the.... Monk?

[jaappleton]

Hear me out:

Initially you might be inclined to say Paladin or maybe Cleric. I mean, you're going into HELL, it stands to reason those two would be alright. Paladin especially.

Now, lets assume that nothing is given. No magic items, etc. You've got your race, class and subclass. That's it.

Believe it or not, Forge Cleric would be amazing. Sure some of the Domain spells are a bit of a waste, but others like Animate Objects work just fine.

Paladin, lets assume Devotion. That's the tried and true Paladin, but its channel divinity is wonderful for Avernus.

Lots of enemies have Fireball. Lots of enemies do Fire damage with their weapons.

An Ancients Paladin only protects from spells, if you wanted to go that route. Forge Domain gets Fire Resist at level 6, but given their heavy armor inclination, their Dex saves are probably not amazing for Fireball. Still, resistance. Devotion Paladin gets nothing here except the vanilla save bonus.

Now the issue of Magic Weapons. Forge can make one starting at 1st level, Devotion can only do it with their Channel Divinity, so for one battle per short rest. Not great for the Devotion Paladin here.

Now... Enter the Monk.

+Innate magic weapons
+Evasion to mitigate spell damage
+With the Variant UA, can heal themselves with Ki
+Can walk on water (You'd be surprised in Hell...)
+Tons of movement for kiting

In an adventure where magic items are rare or require DM discretion, Monk gets some serious benefits here.

PSA, folks:

Don't discount the Monk if you're heading into Hell. Especially a Tiefling Monk.

[Eldariel]

I'd still 100% rather take a spellcaster who doesn't care about magical equipment rather than spend my class producing one; but yeah, I guess I'd rather play a Monk than a Fighter. I mean, hitting enemies is cool as is evasion, but magic does all sorts of awesome things so not having magic seems way worse than having magic. Yeah, Monk kinda-sorta gets few spells but they're far from a real caster. So I'd still rather take a Cleric, a Druid, a Wizard, a Bard or a Sorcerer, but then you get Pally and Monk might just be up next, who knows.

[Teaguethebean]

I would still say the magical weapons an artificer provides to the party is beyond valuable. This practically doubles the damage of the fighter, Barbarian, rogue, etc...

[Willie the Duck]

Any character that can do a lot against Con, Wis, and Dex saves is doing well (Rangers, for instance, do well simply by which stats they focus on). Other than that, if you do not get magic items before heading to Avernus, then it is a great thing if you have another way of getting your weapons to act like magic weapons (be that being a monk, gish, artificer, have a forge cleric on staff, etc.).

Regardless, yes, a monk will do just fine.

[Nagog]

I'd still 100% rather take a spellcaster who doesn't care about magical equipment rather than spend my class producing one; but yeah, I guess I'd rather play a Monk than a Fighter. I mean, hitting enemies is cool as is evasion, but magic does all sorts of awesome things so not having magic seems way worse than having magic. Yeah, Monk kinda-sorta gets few spells but they're far from a real caster. So I'd still rather take a Cleric, a Druid, a Wizard, a Bard or a Sorcerer, but then you get Pally and Monk might just be up next, who knows.

I haven't looked much into the Avernus book adventure, but I imagine that if you're in such an environment as Hell, you're gonna want the stamina that martial characters provide. Considering the (presumed) lack of a day/night cycle and the raging of the Blood War, reliance on repeated rests to refresh spells and the like would make things more difficult than they would be on the Prime Material. While classes like Pally and Cleric are still mostly long rest based, they have the martial abilities to do well without them, and Monks are similar (to a lesser degree somewhat), however they get their ki back on a short rest so they'll be somewhat easier to squeeze in.

As for personal preference, I'd rather go Rogue or Warlock. Rogue has very few expendable resources, Warlocks are built for dependability without them due to their heavy resource restriction, and refresh on a short rest similar to a monk's ki.

[Keravath]

I'd still 100% rather take a spellcaster who doesn't care about magical equipment rather than spend my class producing one; but yeah, I guess I'd rather play a Monk than a Fighter. I mean, hitting enemies is cool as is evasion, but magic does all sorts of awesome things so not having magic seems way worse than having magic. Yeah, Monk kinda-sorta gets few spells but they're far from a real caster. So I'd still rather take a Cleric, a Druid, a Wizard, a Bard or a Sorcerer, but then you get Pally and Monk might just be up next, who knows.

The biggest issue with casters in Avernus is the vast number of opponents who have magic resistance. Spell casters cast spells and those are far less effective against creatures with advantage on their saving throws.


A quick look in the monster manual, and every devil I could find except the lowly lemure has magic resistance. This might make a spellcaster one of the worst choices for a trip to hell if you are planning on landing any spells. Unless you can focus on spells without a save.

[carrdrivesyou]

I'm IN an Avernus game currently. People who have died so far: Totem Barbarian, Light Cleric, Zealot Barbarian, Divine Soul Sorcerer, a Ancients Paladin, Hexblade Warlock, Mastermind Rogue, some kinda Bard, and Forge Cleric. We are all on our 2nd characters, some on our 3rd (none of us are really upset about this, it makes sense in story).


The Totem barb ran screaming into the Abyss portal
The Light cleric and Zealot Barb both got Feebleminded by the Wereboar encounter
The Divine Soul, Ancients Paladin, and Mastermind got offed by pirates
The Hexblade and Forge Cleric just stopped adventuring

The characters with the longest shelf life are the arcane trickster and the fighter (think he is a battlemaster?). My opinions so far are that spells are reliably about half as powerful damage-wise, and melee is facing resistance unless you have magic weapons. AOE abilities have saved our skins, but haven't really been a big issue as far as being used AGAINST us. The real issue is that melee is much more reliable for killing things, but the things you're fighting hit like a runaway train. It FEELS accurate. Mortals fighting fiends tend to get blasted onto their righteous asses more often than not. Some clever hijinks will definitely go a long way.

As for the monk...I can certainly agree that its unique set of skills would be verryyyy beneficial in this module. I might consider running one next time I go through it. Or if my rogue dies.

[MaxWilson]

Now... Enter the Monk.

+Innate magic weapons
+Evasion to mitigate spell damage
+With the Variant UA, can heal themselves with Ki
+Can walk on water (You'd be surprised in Hell...)
+Tons of movement for kiting

In an adventure where magic items are rare or require DM discretion, Monk gets some serious benefits here.

PSA, folks:

Don't discount the Monk if you're heading into Hell. Especially a Tiefling Monk.

Shouldn't the thread title say "UA monk" if you're relying on UA features?

[MrStabby]

Is monk that good? It relies a lot on stunning strike to be awesome and enemies having magic resistance is going to kind of screw with that a bit. Kensai could work really well I guess.

I would have thought Warlock and their ability to get magic weapon would be better. Armour of Agathys, hex, counterspell... they have a lot of good magic that doesn't involve saves and they don't overly rely on resisted elemental damage.

[JNAProductions]

Shouldn't the thread title say "UA monk" if you're relying on UA features?

They listed ONE UA feature. And noted it as such.

But, to the OP-yes, Monks rock. They do well in most situations.

[Eldariel]

The biggest issue with casters in Avernus is the vast number of opponents who have magic resistance. Spell casters cast spells and those are far less effective against creatures with advantage on their saving throws.


A quick look in the monster manual, and every devil I could find except the lowly lemure has magic resistance. This might make a spellcaster one of the worst choices for a trip to hell if you are planning on landing any spells. Unless you can focus on spells without a save.

That's just a spell selection conundrum, not a class-based one (Cleric/Druid repick daily from the full list, Wiz from all they know only really shafting the Sorc and the Bard barring UA). Every caster has tools that work just fine and indeed, if you wanna affect them with SoLs, you can just roll with a Diviner whose ability can replace the whole roll thus mooting magic resistance if you happen to get low rolls.

As for resting, Tiny Hut is still a thing and lasts 8 hours. It comes quite soon...

[MrStabby]

That's just a spell selection conundrum, not a class-based one (Cleric/Druid repick daily from the full list, Wiz from all they know only really shafting the Sorc and the Bard barring UA). Every caster has tools that work just fine and indeed, if you wanna affect them with magic, you can just roll with a Diviner whose ability can replace the whole roll thus mooting magic resistance if you happen to get low rolls.

As for resting, Tiny Hut is still a thing and lasts 8 hours. It comes quite soon...

Well the two are not entirely separable. It isn't that there is a class that has no spells that don't need a saving throw, but more that there are classes where their best spells need saving throws, those spells that make you want to play the class do. Sometimes the spells that don't need saving throws can be a bit niche and not often appropriate. Sometimes there are gaps in the levels they appear making use of them inefficient. Most seriously, the squeeze on effective spells due to widespread elemental immunities and magic resistance coupled with the overlap between classes makes it likely that many spells will be redundant (or at least of diminished value) due to another caster having picked it up.

Building a bard for example is pretty tough: their buffs are pretty widespread across other classes and most of their spells that actually let them interact with their enemies are spells that allow a save. You are reliant far too much on a couple of magical secrets at level 10.

The gap between a class's best spells and a class best spells that don't need a save is pretty big.

[AdAstra]

That's just a spell selection conundrum, not a class-based one (Cleric/Druid repick daily from the full list, Wiz from all they know only really shafting the Sorc and the Bard barring UA). Every caster has tools that work just fine and indeed, if you wanna affect them with SoLs, you can just roll with a Diviner whose ability can replace the whole roll thus mooting magic resistance if you happen to get low rolls.

As for resting, Tiny Hut is still a thing and lasts 8 hours. It comes quite soon...

Clerics only have a few good attack roll-based spells, and they’re arguably the best off of the bunch. Druids have cantrips and Conjure Animals, which will run into problems with magic resistance unless you’re a Shepherd. Wizards and Sorcs mostly have cantrips, Chromatic Orb, Ray of Enfeeblement (which they get a save against after the first turn), and Bigby’s Hand. As far as I can tell, the other options are either going to work pretty poorly for a squishy caster going up against fiends (due to fire/poison resistance/immunity, melee spell attacks, or otherwise), or are just crappy (like Melf’s Acid Arrow). Bards have, whatever they can scrape up through magical secrets. In fact, as a caster, one of your best bets for combat spells will probably be buffs, many of which work best when applied to martial characters.

As for the second part, now all I can imagine is a bunch of devils peering into a Tiny Hut like a microwave, waiting for their pizza rolls, er tasty souls, to be ready.

[stoutstien]

I would never say no to a well played monk in any party or campaign. They are just so consistent in all environments.

[Yakmala]

After my first character died in the Avernus campaign I was in, I brought in a Long Death Monk. Best decision I could have made. He ignored things that were wrecking the rest of the party. And the few times he was successfully targeted for massive damage, he'd just spend a Ki point and stay at 1 HP.

[Eldariel]

Clerics only have a few good attack roll-based spells, and they’re arguably the best off of the bunch. Druids have cantrips and Conjure Animals, which will run into problems with magic resistance unless you’re a Shepherd. Wizards and Sorcs mostly have cantrips, Chromatic Orb, Ray of Enfeeblement (which they get a save against after the first turn), and Bigby’s Hand. As far as I can tell, the other options are either going to work pretty poorly for a squishy caster going up against fiends (due to fire/poison resistance/immunity, melee spell attacks, or otherwise), or are just crappy (like Melf’s Acid Arrow). Bards have, whatever they can scrape up through magical secrets. In fact, as a caster, one of your best bets for combat spells will probably be buffs, many of which work best when applied to martial characters.

As for the second part, now all I can imagine is a bunch of devils peering into a Tiny Hut like a microwave, waiting for their pizza rolls, er tasty souls, to be ready.

They have buffs, and melee spell attacks aren't problematic as such if you take appropriate safety measures (a caster can have pretty ridiculous AC pretty early if they care, so physical attacks are hardly a problem), AOE vision denial effects are real strong and tend to have no saves, you have your illusions, and minionmancy is still great if the minions aren't directly attacking rather than Helping or whatever (higher up obviously stuff like Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Bigby's and company steal the show). In my experience, fighting Outsiders as a Wizard just means tailoring your spell loadout to suit. It's really all good; you get all the best toys in the game and outsource damaging to others is fine though you can do it yourself if you need to (again, meleeing as a Wizard is pretty easy - you have so many ways to avoid taking damage that your EHP is through the roof, and you have innate access to stuff that actually hurts Outsiders if need be). But yes, obviously Druids and Clerics have an easy time as well. Sorcs and Bards have to be built for it but they can shine if need be.

[Keravath]

Is monk that good? It relies a lot on stunning strike to be awesome and enemies having magic resistance is going to kind of screw with that a bit. Kensai could work really well I guess.

I would have thought Warlock and their ability to get magic weapon would be better. Armour of Agathys, hex, counterspell... they have a lot of good magic that doesn't involve saves and they don't overly rely on resisted elemental damage.

Why would magic resistance interfere with stunning strike? Stunning strike isn't magical by the definitions used in 5e.

At 6th level all monk attacks are considered magical so they don't actually need a magic weapon. However, the pact of the blade ability to obtain a magic weapon and the improved pact weapon feature both help a lot in low magic campaigns where magical weapons are hard to come by. Forge cleric can also help with this.

[Keravath]

They have buffs, and melee spell attacks aren't problematic as such if you take appropriate safety measures (a caster can have pretty ridiculous AC pretty early if they care, so physical attacks are hardly a problem), AOE vision denial effects are real strong and tend to have no saves, you have your illusions, and minionmancy is still great if the minions aren't directly attacking rather than Helping or whatever (higher up obviously stuff like Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Bigby's and company steal the show). In my experience, fighting Outsiders as a Wizard just means tailoring your spell loadout to suit. It's really all good; you get all the best toys in the game and outsource damaging to others is fine though you can do it yourself if you need to (again, meleeing as a Wizard is pretty easy - you have so many ways to avoid taking damage that your EHP is through the roof, and you have innate access to stuff that actually hurts Outsiders if need be). But yes, obviously Druids and Clerics have an easy time as well. Sorcs and Bards have to be built for it but they can shine if need be.

Just curious about the statement that "AOE vision denial effects are real strong". I agree that they do a good job of shutting down attacks that require sight like Basilisk or medusa gaze. However, outside of that, they have no effect on melee or ranged attacks at least RAW (which tends to be the rules used at tables where I play) except to prevent advantage and disadvantage. Of course, you may use house rules that increase the effectiveness of the tactic.

[RAW - if you can't see your target then you have disadvantage, if your target can't see you then you have advantage, if both are the case (vision denial effects) then advantage and disadvantage cancel resulting in a straight roll.]

[Eldariel]

Just curious about the statement that "AOE vision denial effects are real strong". I agree that they do a good job of shutting down attacks that require sight like Basilisk or medusa gaze. However, outside of that, they have no effect on melee or ranged attacks at least RAW (which tends to be the rules used at tables where I play) except to prevent advantage and disadvantage. Of course, you may use house rules that increase the effectiveness of the tactic.

[RAW - if you can't see your target then you have disadvantage, if your target can't see you then you have advantage, if both are the case (vision denial effects) then advantage and disadvantage cancel resulting in a straight roll.]

Alert-feat (which is great anyways) guarantees Disadvantage on all attacks for enemies involved. RAW doesn't cover it, but you could expect losing vision to also make enemy location difficult. It's worth it regardless though.

[MrStabby]

Why would magic resistance interfere with stunning strike? Stunning strike isn't magical by the definitions used in 5e.

At 6th level all monk attacks are considered magical so they don't actually need a magic weapon. However, the pact of the blade ability to obtain a magic weapon and the improved pact weapon feature both help a lot in low magic campaigns where magical weapons are hard to come by. Forge cleric can also help with this.

By what definitions? What is the PHB page reference for this? I looked in the index but didn't find anything promising.

I was basing this on the fact that Ki abilities are magical as per p76 of the PHB - the section titles "The Magic of Ki":

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call Ki. This is an element of the magic that infuses the multiverse - specifically the element that flows through living bodies.within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities." (emphasis mine)

Ki abilities are called out as being magical effects, using magical energy. I would furthermore add that Ki can be used to cast spells, which are probably considered magical as well.


On the magic resistance side, the text is "has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects". To me this clearly is suggesting that there are things that should be considered magical effects and against which saves might be made, that are not spells. I don't see why Ki abilities, which are described as magical, would not fall into this category.

[stoutstien]

By what definitions? What is the PHB page reference for this? I looked in the index but didn't find anything promising.

I was basing this on the fact that Ki abilities are magical as per p76 of the PHB - the section titles "The Magic of Ki":

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call Ki. This is an element of the magic that infuses the multiverse - specifically the element that flows through living bodies.within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities." (emphasis mine)

Ki abilities are called out as being magical effects, using magical energy. I would furthermore add that Ki can be used to cast spells, which are probably considered magical as well.


On the magic resistance side, the text is "has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects". To me this clearly is suggesting that there are things that should be considered magical effects and against which saves might be made, that are not spells. I don't see why Ki abilities, which are described as magical, would not fall into this category.

Well they have officially stated that stunning strike is not a magical effect about a dozen times over. That goes for every ki ablity that doesn't flatout replicate a spell.

[micahaphone]

I had always thought that monk abilities were mundane in effect, just powered through ki. For example, Flurry of Blows isn't a magical effect, it's a self-buff, so FoB and magic resistance have no interaction. But you brought up some good points MrStabby. I did find this Sage Advice,
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/11/does-stunning-strike-is-not-a-magical-effect-for-magic-resistance/

so it's at least RAI that Stunning Strike doesn't interact with magical resistance

[MrStabby]

Well they have officially stated that stunning strike is not a magical effect about a dozen times over. That goes for every ki ablity that doesn't flatout replicate a spell.

Is this in the errata? or is it a more unofficial outlet?

[stoutstien]

Is this in the errata? or is it a more unofficial outlet?
No errata because nothing printed calls out for it to be magical in regards to magical resistance.
It's magical in a superhuman ablity like dragon breath attack is magical In a fantasy way but neither are magical in regards to mechanical interactions.

The monks as a class is based on the idea that they don't need to worry about things like magical resistance or needing magical weapons or armor.
They can punch a demon Lord in their little black souls and make it hurt I more ways than one.

[MrStabby]

The monks as a class is based on the idea that they don't need to worry about things like magical resistance or needing magical weapons or armor.
They can punch a demon Lord in their little black souls and make it hurt I more ways than one.

Where does this come from?

[GlenSmash!]

I would never say no to a well played monk in any party or campaign. They are just so consistent in all environments.

Yup. Monks are remarkably immune to the whims of the DM (as much as anyone is)

[Protolisk]

Is this in the errata? or is it a more unofficial outlet?

Stated in Sage Advice (which is unofficial) but grounded in the fact that in the actual class features of Monk, there is nothing about Stunning Strike, or Ki in general, actually stating it is magical (although the fluff before the class features says it is).

This is different from say the Cleric Channel Divinity class feature where it says directly in it's class features that Channel Divinity uses divine energy to fuel magical effects.

Ki does not.

The argument from the class fluff writing before the class features is a bit of a sticking point, I'll admit. Take Bards for instance. In their fluff it says that a gnome weaves her subtle magic so that her companions words are better received. But Bards don't GET subtle magic, that's a Sorcerer metamagic option. Should bards get subtle magic for free? There have been multiple threads on this topic.

[stoutstien]

Where does this come from?

Math and player expectations.
Monks are a self-contained class in everyway. They don't need fighting style because they are built in, they don't need magical weapons or spells to gain this effect because it's built in, they don't need to worry about upgrading armor because it built in, they don't need to worry about movement constraints because it's built in, they don't need to worry about weak saves because they have boosts built in, and at some point that I have to worry about eatting.
Monks won't win any DPR/DPS contests but they have stunning strike. It's the universal ultimate debuff/crowd control ablity. Both resistance and immunity to this effect is extremely rare and while it relies on both a successful melee attack and a failed save it is one of the most powerful ablity available. Later on with Con saves getting into the double digits and LR it loses a little ground but I stays front and center the whole game.

[Keravath]

Alert-feat (which is great anyways) guarantees Disadvantage on all attacks for enemies involved. RAW doesn't cover it, but you could expect losing vision to also make enemy location difficult. It's worth it regardless though.


"ALERT
Always on the lookout for danger, you gain the following benefits:
• You gain a +5 bonus to initiative.
• You can't be surprised while you are conscious.
• Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you"

I hadn't realized the greater implication of the third clause of Alert. I've usually read it to prevent advantage in ambush situations and not realized the application to situations when vision is obstructed. Picking up Alert on my shadow monk just became more appealing :)

[Evaar]

I had always thought that monk abilities were mundane in effect, just powered through ki. For example, Flurry of Blows isn't a magical effect, it's a self-buff, so FoB and magic resistance have no interaction. But you brought up some good points MrStabby. I did find this Sage Advice,
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/11/does-stunning-strike-is-not-a-magical-effect-for-magic-resistance/

so it's at least RAI that Stunning Strike doesn't interact with magical resistance

It's a reasonable question but I think it's clear Stunning Strike isn't a "magical" effect the same way Flurry Of Blows isn't considered magical bludgeoning damage. It's a separate feature that gives monks magical damage on their unarmed strikes. Thus, the simple invocation of ki in the use of an ability doesn't imbue "magic" into the resulting effect. (Quoting micahphone because his post made me think of the Flurry of Blows interaction, or lack thereof.)

[Keravath]

The sage advice compendium (which is considered official rules clarifications) defines magical effects using the following text.

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

The compendium refers specifically to dragon breath but defines a system for determining what is considered magical and what is not in 5e.

"Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?
If you cast antimagic field, don armor of invulnerability, or use another feature of the game that protects against magical or non-magical effects, you might ask yourself, “Will this protect me against a dragon’s breath?” The breath weapon of a typi-cal dragon isn’t considered magical, so antimagic field won’t help you but armor of invulnerability will. You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinc-tion between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type. Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
• Does its description say it’s magical?

If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical. Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask our-selves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears no-where in its description. Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings"

In the case of stunning strike for a monk -
- it is not a magic item
- it is not a spell and does not replicate the effects of a specific spell in its description
- it is not a spell attack
- it is not fueled by spell slots
- the specific description for stunning strike does NOT say it is magical

The only reference to "magic" is in the context of harnessing ki and not in terms of any of the effects or specific features. As a result based on the official sage advice compendium approach, ki effects are not considered magical UNLESS they meet the requirements above. (e.g. a shadow monk using ki for darkness or silence IS causing a magical effect, using ki for flurry of blows, stun, dodge or dash is not magical in game terms).

This seems to be as official as it gets. If folks question that it should be applied this way there are tweets from Jeremy Crawford in terms of RAI indicating that ki is part of the inherent magic in D&D and not the specific magical effects which can be dispelled or to which magic resistance would apply. This is specifically referenced in the sage advice reference below where JC refers to the above sage advice compendium article when referring to a monk ability to stun and whether it is subject to magic resistance.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/11/does-stunning-strike-is-not-a-magical-effect-for-magic-resistance/

----
Joe Lastowski @JoeLastowski 10 May 2016
@JeremyECrawford Except in the section called "The Magic of Ki" at the start of the Monk description.

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford Replying to @JoeLastowski
@JoeLastowski That is an example of the background magic I talked about in Sage Advice. Look for "Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?"
----

Unfortunately, there isn't anything more official available than the official Sage Advice Compendium and the unofficial tweet indicating that the section defining magic in the compendium applies to a monk's ki.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

+With the Variant UA, can heal themselves with Ki

Or just play Open Hand and use Wholeness of Body, then you don't have to convince the DM to accept UA material.

[Wraith]

I considered playing a Monk when my group recently took to Avernus - I didn't know what to expect beyond the premise, and Monks are wonderfully self-sufficient in that they have nearly everything they need to look after themselves without relying on any particular external sources.

Having played a little way into Avernus, I'm honestly thinking that a Monk's strength - the ability to fight without needing weapons, armour, spells, etc - would also be their biggest weakness in the setting.

For example, your AC doesn't scale very well. While its reasonable at low level, you quickly start facing Devils who have multiple attacks so sooner or later you're going to start getting hit and there's nothing that you can do about it. Unless you went out of your way to find some Bracers of Defence or a Ring of Protection or something, you're very, very, VERY unlikely to find it while playing so your AC is only ever going to be as high as your Stats allow it.

Similarly, while your damage is a bit better it too scales very slowly. Flurry of Blows helps, but Devils are consistently quite spongy (particularly in this supplement, where you get them appearing in bunches at a time) and a few d6's doesn't get you very far, most excel at STR and DEX saves if you're going after them with Open Hand, and there's plenty of Elemental Resistance if you're using Way of Shadows.

All of this combined absolutely doesn't kill off the Monk's potential, but I think you'll find yourself relying on the same one or two tricks over and over - you'll make it through, but you're only ever a couple of bad rolls away from disaster and it might not be as fun as some other classes.

Purely anecdotal and untested, but I think one of the secretly powerful classes that you could take into Avernus would be the Arcane Tradition: Pscionic Wizard from Unearthed Arcana. Targeting a Devil via their generally-low WIS score, as Enchantments are wont to do, has proven decently useful for us, and as far as we've found so far then nothing has resistance to Psychic damage.
On top of the usual broad spectrum of support spells that really helps wizards out in between battles, I think it could be a strong option for a player who wants a class that shines both mechanically and thematically. :smallsmile:

[diplomancer]

I considered playing a Monk when my group recently took to Avernus - I didn't know what to expect beyond the premise, and Monks are wonderfully self-sufficient in that they have nearly everything they need to look after themselves without relying on any particular external sources.

Having played a little way into Avernus, I'm honestly thinking that a Monk's strength - the ability to fight without needing weapons, armour, spells, etc - would also be their biggest weakness in the setting.

For example, your AC doesn't scale very well. While its reasonable at low level, you quickly start facing Devils who have multiple attacks so sooner or later you're going to start getting hit and there's nothing that you can do about it. Unless you went out of your way to find some Bracers of Defence or a Ring of Protection or something, you're very, very, VERY unlikely to find it while playing so your AC is only ever going to be as high as your Stats allow it.

Similarly, while your damage is a bit better it too scales very slowly. Flurry of Blows helps, but Devils are consistently quite spongy (particularly in this supplement, where you get them appearing in bunches at a time) and a few d6's doesn't get you very far, most excel at STR and DEX saves if you're going after them with Open Hand, and there's plenty of Elemental Resistance if you're using Way of Shadows.

All of this combined absolutely doesn't kill off the Monk's potential, but I think you'll find yourself relying on the same one or two tricks over and over - you'll make it through, but you're only ever a couple of bad rolls away from disaster and it might not be as fun as some other classes.

Purely anecdotal and untested, but I think one of the secretly powerful classes that you could take into Avernus would be the Arcane Tradition: Pscionic Wizard from Unearthed Arcana. Targeting a Devil via their generally-low WIS score, as Enchantments are wont to do, has proven decently useful for us, and as far as we've found so far then nothing has resistance to Psychic damage.
On top of the usual broad spectrum of support spells that really helps wizards out in between battles, I think it could be a strong option for a player who wants a class that shines both mechanically and thematically. :smallsmile:

Monks have good defensive options, Patient Defense (one of my favourit tanking abilities in the game) and Step of the Wind. Though they cost resources and make your offenses less good, they are still a worthwhile tactic to use under the right circumstances. I was able to tank a combat (against a demon, actually) with my level 5 shadow monk just using Patient Defense.

[RogueJK]

Purely anecdotal and untested, but I think one of the secretly powerful classes that you could take into Avernus would be the Arcane Tradition: Pscionic Wizard from Unearthed Arcana. Targeting a Devil via their generally-low WIS score, as Enchantments are wont to do, has proven decently useful for us, and as far as we've found so far then nothing has resistance to Psychic damage.


True, targeting WIS is better than some of their higher ability scores. However, Fiends still have that pesky Magic Resistance that gives them Advantage on saving throws against spells, including these WIS saves. So they're still fairly likely to make that saving throw.

In general, offensive spells can be broken down into three major categories:

1) Those that require attack rolls, which since they don't trigger that Magic Resistance, are typically a better bet against Fiends than...

2) Those that require saves but still have partial effects on a successful save, which are less optimal than #1 against Fiends but better than...

3) Those whose saves are all-or-nothing, as in if the enemy makes the save the spell is wasted.

Unfortunately, nearly all offensive Enchantment/Psionic spells fall into the 3rd category, and therefore would be the least optimal type of spell against Fiends and their saving throw Advantage from Magic Resistance.

(Even worse would be a subset of #3, which are all-or-nothing save spells that grant an additional saving throw every turn/time they take damage/etc. With those, a Fiend with Advantage from Magic Resistance is basically guaranteed to make the save, if not the first time, then within the first few tries.)


Instead, if we're going with UA stuff, I think an optimal arcane spellcaster for Avernus would be a Divine Soul Sorcerer with the Elemental Substitution Metamagic from the UA Variant Class Features. They can take a nice attack roll spell like Scorching Ray and spend 1 Spell Point to turn it into Thunder damage to bypass a Fiend's resistances/immunities, and since it's an attack roll it bypasses their Magic Resistance too. They can do the same with AOE spells like Fireball, turning it into Thunder damage, and even when the Fiends make their Advantaged saving throw, they still take half damage and it bypasses their fire resistance/immunity. And they'd be able to lean on Chill Touch as their primary attack cantrip, since it does Necrotic damage and it uses an attack roll, so it bypasses Fiend resistances/immunities and Magic Resistance. Plus you'd also get access to Cleric spells like Guiding Bolt and Spiritual Weapon, which are attack roll spells doing Radiant and Force damage respectively, to bypass both Fiend resistances/immunities as well as their Magic Resistance.

Then, after Level 5ish, to really bump up the damage, dip 2 levels into Tempest Cleric too. This means you can Channel Divinity 1x/short rest to cause one Thunder Substituted spell to do maximum damage. That's 36 damage to one Fiend if all three rays from a 2nd level Thunder-Scorching Ray hit, or 24-48 Thunder damage to multiple Fiends from a 3rd level Thunder-Fireball, depending on whether they make their saves. And the Maximized damage goes even higher if they're upcast into a higher level slot. Plus you'd get several more Cleric Cantrips and 1st level spells known, as well as Medium/Heavy Armor and Martial Weapons.

You'd end up with a Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X with Medium/Heavy armor and a Shield, primarily hanging back at range and blasting Fiends with single target Necrotic/Radiant/Thunder spells and AOE Thunder spells, while Counterspelling enemy spells, concentrating on a buff spell, and having their Spiritual Weapon smack Fiends around with your Bonus Actions. If needed, you'd have the ability to wade into melee with a melee attack roll cantrip like Primal Savagery (added to the Sorcerer's spell list in the same Variant Class Features UA) plus Spirit Guardians. And you'd have your pick of all the Cleric healing/condition removal/resurrection spells too.


Considering Avernus runs through roughly 12th level, it'd look something like this towards the end. An optimized spell blaster for the circumstances, plus decent Clerical support, with high AC, CON save proficiency, secondary melee capability, and Face skills. A very solid Avernus character.

Half Elf Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 10 (with Standard Array)
Starting Sorcerer5, then Sorcerer5/Cleric2, then Sorcerer10/Cleric2 (or 1 level of Cleric can be taken as early as Level 2, if you want earlier access to Heavy Armor at the cost of delaying ASI and 3rd level spells)
STR: 14+1
DEX: 8 (or 10)
CON: 12+1
INT: 10 (or 8)
WIS: 13
CHA: 15+2
Skills: Deception and Persuasion from Sorcerer, Insight and Perception from Background, Arcana and Religion (or two others of your choice) from Racial
ASIs: +1 CHA/+1 CON at Sorcerer 4, +2 CHA at Sorcerer 8

Spell Slots: 4/3/3/3/2/1
Cleric Cantrips: Guidance and 2x utility spells
Sorcerer Cantrips: Chill Touch, Primal Savagery (UA), and 4x utility spells
Cleric 1st level spells prepared: Fog Cloud*, Thunderwave*, Healing Word, Bless, Detect Magic
Sorcerer 1st: Absorb Elements, Guiding Bolt, Cure Wounds*
Sorcerer 2nd: Scorching Ray, Spiritual Weapon
Sorcerer 3rd: Haste, Fly, Fireball, Counterspell, and either Aura of Vitality (UA) if your party needs more out of combat healing, or Spirit Guardians if you're finding yourself near the front lines semi-frequently
Sorcerer 4th: (Only used for upcasting or generating Spell Points)
Sorcerer 5th: Raise Dead, Greater Restoration (but primarily used for upcasting or generating Spell Points)
(No 6th level spells known yet; that slot is only used for upcasting or generating Spell Points)

10 Spell Points
Metamagic: Elemental Substitution (UA), Quickened, Twinned
Wrath of the Storm 1x/long rest
Channel Divinity to Turn Undead or Maximize Thunder/Lightning Damage 1x/short rest
Favored of the Gods 1x/short rest
Empowered Healing

Equipment:
Heavy Armor and Shield (plus a backup magic one-handed melee weapon if you happen to have an extra lying around)

[elyktsorb]

It's nice to hear this since I just started this campaign a few weeks ago, though I went in as a Multiclass Monk/Barbarian Tortle. (Our dm let us start this at lvl 2, but has adjusted for it)

[McSkrag]

I'm IN an Avernus game currently. People who have died so far: Totem Barbarian, Light Cleric, Zealot Barbarian, Divine Soul Sorcerer, a Ancients Paladin, Hexblade Warlock, Mastermind Rogue, some kinda Bard, and Forge Cleric. We are all on our 2nd characters, some on our 3rd (none of us are really upset about this, it makes sense in story).


The Totem barb ran screaming into the Abyss portal
The Light cleric and Zealot Barb both got Feebleminded by the Wereboar encounter
The Divine Soul, Ancients Paladin, and Mastermind got offed by pirates
The Hexblade and Forge Cleric just stopped adventuring


I like where your DM's head is at! :smallbiggrin:

But back to OP's question...

Given how hostile the Avernus environment is and the issues it causes with long rests and exhaustion combined with the number of of enemies with magic resistance I think classes with short rest abiilities and direct damage like fighters, monks, and warlocks are well suited. I also think CON saves are going to be even more important than usual. So starting with a level of fighter, sorcerer or a Vhuman with resiliant CON is a good call.

So yes, I'd agree that monks are a good call. Also arcane archers, battlemasters, hexblades, and sorlocks that start as sorcerers.

[kazaryu]

Hear me out:

Initially you might be inclined to say Paladin or maybe Cleric. I mean, you're going into HELL, it stands to reason those two would be alright. Paladin especially.

Now, lets assume that nothing is given. No magic items, etc. You've got your race, class and subclass. That's it.

Believe it or not, Forge Cleric would be amazing. Sure some of the Domain spells are a bit of a waste, but others like Animate Objects work just fine.

Paladin, lets assume Devotion. That's the tried and true Paladin, but its channel divinity is wonderful for Avernus.

Lots of enemies have Fireball. Lots of enemies do Fire damage with their weapons.

An Ancients Paladin only protects from spells, if you wanted to go that route. Forge Domain gets Fire Resist at level 6, but given their heavy armor inclination, their Dex saves are probably not amazing for Fireball. Still, resistance. Devotion Paladin gets nothing here except the vanilla save bonus.

Now the issue of Magic Weapons. Forge can make one starting at 1st level, Devotion can only do it with their Channel Divinity, so for one battle per short rest. Not great for the Devotion Paladin here.

Now... Enter the Monk.

+Innate magic weapons
+Evasion to mitigate spell damage
+With the Variant UA, can heal themselves with Ki
+Can walk on water (You'd be surprised in Hell...)
+Tons of movement for kiting

In an adventure where magic items are rare or require DM discretion, Monk gets some serious benefits here.

PSA, folks:

Don't discount the Monk if you're heading into Hell. Especially a Tiefling Monk.
I...ok so youre ignoring many many things that would be hugely in favor of the paladin..

1. Can give themselves magic weapons at level 1, if needed
2. Can cast protection from evil/magic circle,
3. Their aura of protection is..an aura. Evasion is good, and when combined with the monk getting proficiency in everything is going to act as a better defense specifically against dex based saves. Paladins aura helps everyone within 10 feet of them. Thus defending the party against more thanjust dex based damage. Devotion paladins specifically also get an aura that makes allies immune to fear effects. Another major weapon of fiends.
4. Deal more damage to fiends.

And most of that comes together by lvl 5. Monks are cute. Easily the most effective for avernus of the full martials. Maybe onnpar with arcane casters. But they dont hold a candle to a well built paladin/cleric.