Could a cleric with the Fire Domain rebuke/command ANY creature?

[Khatoblepas]

I've been looking up alternate rebuking mechanics because minions are fun, and I rediscovered the Fire Domain, which allows you to "rebuke or control fire creatures, and turn water creatures."

If a Fire cleric casts Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on a creature, and applies the right amount of negative levels, could they potentially command any creature in the entire game? Negative levels do "reduce the creature's effective level by 1 for the purposes of calculations and dice rolls".

This means you could, for instance, apply negative levels to a Black Ethergaunt, cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on it, and then command it, to get a creature with 17th level wizard casting under your complete command.

Related: If you cast Mantle of the Icy Soul on a creature and rebuke them with the Cold or Winter domains, do you lose control of them when they lose the Cold subtype?

Anything interesting we can do with this, if true?

[Crake]

I've been looking up alternate rebuking mechanics because minions are fun, and I rediscovered the Fire Domain, which allows you to "rebuke or control fire creatures, and turn water creatures."

If a Fire cleric casts Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on a creature, and applies the right amount of negative levels, could they potentially command any creature in the entire game? Negative levels do "reduce the creature's effective level by 1 for the purposes of calculations and dice rolls".

Yup, that would work.


This means you could, for instance, apply negative levels to a Black Ethergaunt, cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on it, and then command it, to get a creature with 17th level wizard casting under your complete command.

Sure, as long as you're at least a cleric of 8th level, remember you can only control up to twice your cleric level in HD, this means giving up access to prestige classes, and also hoping you yourself never get level drained in return.


Related: If you cast Mantle of the Icy Soul on a creature and rebuke them with the Cold or Winter domains, do you lose control of them when they lose the Cold subtype?

Temporary effects do make things iffy, you'd probably need to ask your DM for a definitive judgement on how he would rule this. I would say you lose control, since it's no longer considered a creature with the cold subtype, but at the same time, I also use the older version of mantle of the icy soul which is instantaneous.


Anything interesting we can do with this, if true?

I mean, aside from the obvious ability to control practically any creature you want? One thing to keep in mind is that while mantle of the fiery spirit is instantaneous, it can still be removed, as an instantaneous transmutation effect, it is subject to being removed via the break enchantment spell, so your control over such a creature isn't absolute.

[Vaern]

One thing to keep in mind is that while mantle of the fiery spirit is instantaneous, it can still be removed, as an instantaneous transmutation effect, it is subject to being removed via the break enchantment spell, so your control over such a creature isn't absolute.

The Frostburn version of Mantle of the Icy Soul appears to have a bit more staying power, as the description explicitly says it can only be removed with a limited wish or wish. The cold variant also has the benefit of being available 3 spell levels sooner, as well as saving 5000 gp in material component costs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Anything interesting we can do with this, if true?
If Faiths of Eberron is allowed at your table you can pick a better domain and buy the power of the Fire domain for 7k gp (Khyber Shard Holy Symbol).
Also the powers of the Water, Air and Earth domains, for another 2 minions with half your effective turning level in HD per symbol, though you'll have to look for creatures who get the right subtype naturally.

Aside from commanding pretty much anything you actually meet ingame if you want to the impact isn't that big.
There are already powerful creatures for each of the elemental subtypes, all true dragons among them, so the theoretical power of your minions doesn't change too much.
The ability to be flexible with the base materials for your minionmancy is pretty valuable in actual play, but you can get the same thing from commanding undead if you're allowed the good templates without dumping a domain choice for it, so it's mostly of value for good clerics and tables where the DM doesn't mind you bringing an entire entourage of high level minions.


Sure, as long as you're at least a cleric of 8th level, remember you can only control up to twice your cleric level in HD, this means giving up access to prestige classes, and also hoping you yourself never get level drained in return.
That's what turning level boosters are for. And some prestige classes do advance turning.

You could chose to interpret the rules such that neither of those apply to turning non-undead, but that interpretation is needlessly restrictive and makes those domain powers completely worthless.
The other interpretation is of course that anything that applies to Turn Undead applies equally to non-undead turning, should you have it.

You're also confusing rebuke-commanding and Animate Dead. You can command up to your effective level in HD with any single creature being allowed up to half your HD.
So 2 minions per rebuke/command pool basically if you want to optimize it.


Temporary effects do make things iffy, you'd probably need to ask your DM for a definitive judgement on how he would rule this. I would say you lose control, since it's no longer considered a creature with the cold subtype, but at the same time, I also use the older version of mantle of the icy soul which is instantaneous.
I'd argue that the stats only matter when the turning check is resolved, but afaik the rules are unclear on the issue so it's up to the DM.
FWIW that's consistent with the way Animate Dead works considering the HD cap - it's only checked at the time of casting.


I mean, aside from the obvious ability to control practically any creature you want? One thing to keep in mind is that while mantle of the fiery spirit is instantaneous, it can still be removed, as an instantaneous transmutation effect, it is subject to being removed via the break enchantment spell, so your control over such a creature isn't absolute.
Break Enchantment only works on spells of up to 5th level if they can't be dispelled.
Wish would probably work, but if my enemies spend a Wish to remove my control from one of at least 2 minions (instead of using it to do something to me) i'd consider it a win.
A cleric with the relevant domain (one that turns/destroys Fire creatures) could also presumably dispel your turning and PfX/Magic Circle should suppress it since it's an ongoing mental control effect.

[Crake]

That's what turning level boosters are for. And some prestige classes do advance turning.

You could chose to interpret the rules such that neither of those apply to turning non-undead, but that interpretation is needlessly restrictive and makes those domain powers completely worthless.
The other interpretation is of course that anything that applies to Turn Undead applies equally to non-undead turning, should you have it.

I dunno if I would call it needlessly restrictive. Turning is incredibly strong against whatever it's affecting, if you could perform all the turn undead shenannigans on other kinds of turn/rebukes, then it would make them way too strong.

Also, a lot of the turn undead boosting stuff only really makes sense fluff-wise to boost undead turning, and nothing else.


You're also confusing rebuke-commanding and Animate Dead. You can command up to your effective level in HD with any single creature being allowed up to half your HD.
So 2 minions per rebuke/command pool basically if you want to optimize it.

You're right about the first part, but I don't see anything about the max half level in HD for a single creature cap under the command undead section of the turn rules.


Break Enchantment only works on spells of up to 5th level if they can't be dispelled.
Wish would probably work, but if my enemies spend a Wish to remove my control from one of at least 2 minions (instead of using it to do something to me) i'd consider it a win.
A cleric with the relevant domain (one that turns/destroys Fire creatures) could also presumably dispel your turning and PfX/Magic Circle should suppress it since it's an ongoing mental control effect.

This is it's own whole debate, but the fact that the spell uses flesh to stone as it's own example to me is definitive proof that instantaneous does not mean "not dispellable". The outcome can't be dispelled in the same manner damage from fireball can't be dispelled, because it's instantaneous. To me, "not dispellable" means "This spell cannot be dispelled" written somewhere in the spell's text description.

You may have a different take on the matter, but to me that's irrefutable proof. I'm not trying to convince you, merely presenting both sides of the argument for third party readers to be informed.

[Blue Jay]

You're right about the first part, but I don't see anything about the max half level in HD for a single creature cap under the command undead section of the turn rules.

It's this line:


Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

Link (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

"Those that would be destroyed" are the undead that have no more than half as many HD as the turning cleric has cleric levels.

[redking]

If a Fire cleric casts Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on a creature, and applies the right amount of negative levels, could they potentially command any creature in the entire game? Negative levels do "reduce the creature's effective level by 1 for the purposes of calculations and dice rolls".

Great find! I was unaware of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit. The duration is "instantaneous", so it can't even be dispelled. So yes, you could rebuke/control virtually anything by casting this on a creature first.

[Vaern]

PfX/Magic Circle should suppress it since it's an ongoing mental control effect.
Turn undead mimics a fear effect and commanding undead mimics compulsion, yet both are able to function on a creature type that is immune to mind-affecting effects, even if the individual creature in question is mindless and this lacks the intelligence necessary to even be subject to mind-affecting effects to begin with.
One might argue that "mental control" in the description of commanding undead refers to giving commands mentally while "mental control" in the description of protection from x refers to control of the mind, with the latter not applying to command undead as it is able to affect things with no mind to control. Protection from x also specifies that attempts to exercise mental control includes enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) effects, of which commanding undead is designated as neither.
If commanding fire creatures with the fire domain ability is meant to work the same way as rebuking or commanding undead then it is [somehow] not a mind-affecting compulsion effect and thus it's debatable whether protection or magic circle spells would actually protect against it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I dunno if I would call it needlessly restrictive. Turning is incredibly strong against whatever it's affecting, if you could perform all the turn undead shenannigans on other kinds of turn/rebukes, then it would make them way too strong.
A 10HD minion at level 20 is pretty much useless, especially since most monsters have HD higher than their CR.
On the other hand a cleric who stacks turning boosters could easily command creatures way in excess of his level which is obviously too powerful.

Imo the best way to balance it is by restricting turning boosters (to a max of half your native turning level, for example).


Also, a lot of the turn undead boosting stuff only really makes sense fluff-wise to boost undead turning, and nothing else.
The problem with that argument is that there is no other support for non-undead turning, again making it useless.


Turn undead mimics a fear effect and commanding undead mimics compulsion, yet both are able to function on a creature type that is immune to mind-affecting effects, even if the individual creature in question is mindless and this lacks the intelligence necessary to even be subject to mind-affecting effects to begin with.
One might argue that "mental control" in the description of commanding undead refers to giving commands mentally while "mental control" in the description of protection from x refers to control of the mind, with the latter not applying to command undead as it is able to affect things with no mind to control. Protection from x also specifies that attempts to exercise mental control includes enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) effects, of which commanding undead is designated as neither.
If commanding fire creatures with the fire domain ability is meant to work the same way as rebuking or commanding undead then it is [somehow] not a mind-affecting compulsion effect and thus it's debatable whether protection or magic circle spells would actually protect against it.
Just because the protection includes mind-affecting compulsions doesn't mean it's limited to those. It also blocks possession and Magic Jar after all, the latter of which is a necromancy effect.

As for the "mental control" aspect of commanding, since you give the creature orders that it then carries out without further input - as opposed to requiring concentration to directly puppet the body - it seems pretty clear to me that you control whatever passes for the targets mind.

That aside it's one of the few ways to disrupt the control granted by commanding (and even then only suppress it), with the other one being a cleric with the opposite domain dispelling the turning.
Abilities with no counters are bad for balance.

[Crake]

"Those that would be destroyed" are the undead that have no more than half as many HD as the turning cleric has cleric levels.

Oh, right, I getcha, because you normally only destroy undead who are half your cleric level, though that can be slightly adjusted by having a good turning check and getting cleric level +4, so really the cap is half cleric level +2 on a good turning check.

The confusion arises because I actually allow a homebrew version of disciple of the sun for rebuke clerics, so I forgot this limitation was actually a thing, speaking of which...


A 10HD minion at level 20 is pretty much useless, especially since most monsters have HD higher than their CR.
On the other hand a cleric who stacks turning boosters could easily command creatures way in excess of his level which is obviously too powerful.

If you allow turn undead feats/abilities/effects to work on any other kind of turning, then disciple of the sun would completely eliminate this restriction.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oh, right, I getcha, because you normally only destroy undead who are half your cleric level, though that can be slightly adjusted by having a good turning check and getting cleric level +4, so really the cap is half cleric level +2 on a good turning check.
The turning check adjusts what you can affect but it has no influence on your effective turning level, so it has no effect on what you can command.
As long as you're at least level 8 you can command anything you could command even on a turning check result of 0 or lower.


If you allow turn undead feats/abilities/effects to work on any other kind of turning, then disciple of the sun would completely eliminate this restriction.
Disciple of the Sun only affects turning, not rebuking. Afaik there is no official material that allows the same effect for rebuking/commanding, which is likely deliberate.
At least with turning level boosters you have to invest a noticable chunk of your build resources to command level-appropriate minions. Doing the same with a single feat is a little too powerful imo.

[Crake]

The turning check adjusts what you can affect but it has no influence on your effective turning level, so it has no effect on what you can command.
As long as you're at least level 8 you can command anything you could command even on a turning check result of 0 or lower.


Disciple of the Sun only affects turning, not rebuking. Afaik there is no official material that allows the same effect for rebuking/commanding, which is likely deliberate.
At least with turning level boosters you have to invest a noticable chunk of your build resources to command level-appropriate minions. Doing the same with a single feat is a little too powerful imo.

Are you sure about that? Because the prerequisite for disciple of the sun is "Turn or rebuke undead", and rebuking states that things are commanded if they would otherwise be destroyed.

[redking]

Are you sure about that? Because the prerequisite for disciple of the sun is "Turn or rebuke undead", and rebuking states that things are commanded if they would otherwise be destroyed.

The feat requires good alignment. And -


A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures.

[Crake]

The feat requires good alignment. And -

While I agree with you, the context is in extending feats/abilities/effects that affect turn undead to other kinds of turns/rebukes, such as water/fire creatures with the fire domain, and you can most certainly qualify to rebuke those while remaining good.

As an aside, I'm almost certain you can find a way to get rebuke undead while of good alignment.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While I agree with you, the context is in extending feats/abilities/effects that affect turn undead to other kinds of turns/rebukes, such as water/fire creatures with the fire domain, and you can most certainly qualify to rebuke those while remaining good.

As an aside, I'm almost certain you can find a way to get rebuke undead while of good alignment.

You can, Death Delver gets rebuke regardless of alignment. Not exactly optimized for a caster build but it's there.

But i think extending the effect of DotS to rebuking/commanding is something to take up with your DM.
The rules are remarkably unclear about what does and doesn't affect non-undead turning, mostly by not mentioning it at all.

[Crake]

You can, Death Delver gets rebuke regardless of alignment. Not exactly optimized for a caster build but it's there.

But i think extending the effect of DotS to rebuking/commanding is something to take up with your DM.
The rules are remarkably unclear about what does and doesn't affect non-undead turning, mostly by not mentioning it at all.

I would definitely agree, ask your DM, ymmv on any rulings suggested here.

[redking]

I would definitely agree, ask your DM, ymmv on any rulings suggested here.

A permissive reading of the turn or rebuke undead feature may allow that. But allow me to suggest that the feat itself doesn't and another possibility.


You can destroy undead instead of merely turning them.

And -


You may spend two turn undead attempts when you turn undead instead of one. If you do then you get destroy the undead instead of turning them.

A character that can only rebuke can destroy undead if it spends two turn attempts.

[Crake]

A permissive reading of the turn or rebuke undead feature may allow that. But allow me to suggest that the feat itself doesn't and another possibility.



And -



A character that can only rebuke can destroy undead if it spends two turn attempts.

Well, the counterargument to that would be the line quoted earlier, a cleric who rebukes commands any undead that would otherwise be destroyed, thus the undead are instead commanded. But it's a back and forth that has both sides, personally, I just homebrewed it to work for both, but imposed a hard limit, rather than "whatever you can manage", and removed the requirement for a good alignment, because why must the good guys have all the fun toys :smalltongue: But I encourage DMs to use whichever ruling they prefer, rather than whichever they believe to be the "correct" ruling, because you'll not really get a definitive answer on that.

[Vaern]

DotS requires good alignment, so cheesing that to easily command things may be difficult.
The sun domain lets you use a greater turning 1/day to destroy undead instead of turning them. If you could get that on an evil cleric you could theoretically use it to auto-command things instead of rebuking. All of the sun deities I know of are good-aligned, but I know there was a post floating around about an evil variant of Pelor...

[sleepyphoenixx]

DotS requires good alignment, so cheesing that to easily command things may be difficult.
The sun domain lets you use a greater turning 1/day to destroy undead instead of turning them. If you could get that on an evil cleric you could theoretically use it to auto-command things instead of rebuking. All of the sun deities I know of are good-aligned, but I know there was a post floating around about an evil variant of Pelor...
You can just take the Planar Touchstone feat for the Catalogues of Enlightenment and get the Sun domain power regardless of alignment.

If your DM will agree with your interpretation is another matter.